freenode #wikipedia

2008-05-15 02:58 < Luna-San> See? He even knew who I was talking so, since his ignore list has exactly one entry!
2008-05-15 02:58 < Mark_Ryan> do any of the linux distributions feature that fancy 3D interface that got shown off ages ago?
2008-05-15 02:59 < Lubaf> Mark_Ryan: I doubt it.
2008-05-15 02:59 < Blu_Aardvark> I use Ubuntu on occasion. I haven't booted to it for a while, though, as 1. I haven't figured out how to configure shorewall, and my cable modem doesn't have a built-in firewall, and 2. I keep meaning to finish my project with Adventure Game Studio, which I need Windows for
2008-05-15 02:59 < Mark_Ryan> that would be a good reason for me to change
2008-05-15 02:59 < Mark_Ryan> eye candy
2008-05-15 02:59 < Luna-San> Call me old-fashioned, but I don't really follow the awesomeness of a 3D desktop. What do we gain, there?
2008-05-15 02:59 < Lubaf> Mark_Ryan: Fancy interfaces have a bad habit of dying before they get to market.
2008-05-15 03:00 < Mark_Ryan> Luna-San, if it looks good, it will soothe you
2008-05-15 03:00 < Mark_Ryan> if it looks like MS DOS, you'll wonder why you're wasting your time
2008-05-15 03:00 < Mark_Ryan> plus it's a status thing
2008-05-15 03:00 < Mark_Ryan> look at all the people who buy Macs to be cool
2008-05-15 03:00 < Luna-San> Fair enough
2008-05-15 03:02 < Mark_Ryan> do you not agree?
2008-05-15 03:02 < Lubaf> Luna-San: What's new?
2008-05-15 03:02 < Lubaf> Mark_Ryan: I don't.
2008-05-15 03:02 < Mark_Ryan> what do you think, Lubaf?
2008-05-15 03:02 < Lubaf> GUIs are good.
2008-05-15 03:02 < Luna-San> Not too much. Getting into finals. x.x
2008-05-15 03:02 < Lubaf> Excessively fancy GUIs are bad.
2008-05-15 03:02 < Luna-San> And it turns out that ALL of my finals are going to be on the same day.
2008-05-15 03:02 < Lubaf> The difference is subtle, but important.
2008-05-15 03:02 < Lubaf> Luna-San: That sucks.
2008-05-15 03:03 < Lubaf> A excessive GUI is one that isn't quick to load and respond.
2008-05-15 03:03 < Blu_Aardvark> I like simple GUIs that let me find what I want easily. Bloated guis are actually harder for me to navigate.
2008-05-15 03:03 < Blu_Aardvark> Plus, slower
2008-05-15 03:03 < Lubaf> Thus, Vista is excessive.
2008-05-15 03:03 < Mark_Ryan> oh, I don't argue about Vista
2008-05-15 03:03 < Mark_Ryan> but I mean, it's like people's wallpapers
2008-05-15 03:03 < Lubaf> Mark_Ryan: I know. Nobody does.
2008-05-15 03:03 < Lubaf> Mark_Ryan: Not quite.
2008-05-15 03:04 < Lubaf> Your choice of GUI says a lot about how quickly you work.
2008-05-15 03:04 < Lubaf> (Not how productive you are, mind, merely how fast you work.)
2008-05-15 03:04 < Lubaf> (It's the difference between throughput and latency, if you get my vague point.)
2008-05-15 03:05 < Mark_Ryan> yes, i do
2008-05-15 03:05 < Mark_Ryan> but what about the people who use their computers at home?
2008-05-15 03:05 < Mark_Ryan> and the most intensive task they can do is run Windows Media Player and MSN at the same time? heh
2008-05-15 03:07 < Luna-San> I thought IRC is all you need!
2008-05-15 03:07 < Lubaf> Mark_Ryan: Even then.
2008-05-15 03:08 < Blu_Aardvark> Heh. I remember the days when that was all I used. MSN Messenger 6, Internet Explorer 6, and Windows Media Player. And that was pretty much my internet suite right there.
2008-05-15 03:08 < Lubaf> Although, if you're only using IM and viewing media, you're not much of a User, merely a passive consumer.
2008-05-15 03:08 < Lubaf> Blu_Aardvark: That does not speak well of you.
2008-05-15 03:09 * Lubaf counts IE 4 as the last decent IE release.
2008-05-15 03:09 * Mark_Ryan stares at Lubaf
2008-05-15 03:09 < Blu_Aardvark> Well, that was back in 2000-ish. I quickly switched to Winamp when I discovered that, but I made the mistake of running Winamp 3 instead of Winamp 2, because I had this mistaken idea that newer was necessarily better.
2008-05-15 03:09 < Blu_Aardvark> Oops lol
2008-05-15 03:09 < Mark_Ryan> lol, Winamp 3 sucked
2008-05-15 03:09 < Blu_Aardvark> Er, guess that was 2003ish
2008-05-15 03:09 < Lubaf> Blu_Aardvark: WinAmp 3 is a mistake I'll let pass, as it's an easy one to make.
2008-05-15 03:10 < Mark_Ryan> every time I moved my mouse across winamp 3, it slowed down my computer so much redrawing it that the music would stutter
2008-05-15 03:10 < Mark_Ryan> i quickly reverted to 2.7.1 or whatever the prior one was
2008-05-15 03:10 < Lubaf> Mark_Ryan: And still it was better than Windows Media Player.
2008-05-15 03:10 * Lubaf doesn't like WMP.
2008-05-15 03:11 < Lubaf> Too much like a horrendous crossbreed of a WMD and an EMP.
2008-05-15 03:11 < Blu_Aardvark> I agree with you there. The last decent version of Windows Media Player was version 7, and even that sucked
2008-05-15 03:11 * Lubaf is in a punny mood tonight.
2008-05-15 03:12 < Mark_Ryan> I use Windows Media Player. It seems more useful now that it's a clone of iTunes
2008-05-15 03:12 * Lubaf still prefers WinAmp.
2008-05-15 03:12 < Blu_Aardvark> Yeah, to Microsofts credit they cleaned up the GUI and improved the quality of Windows Media Player 11. I still don't use it, but I can forgive someone who does.
2008-05-15 03:13 < Lubaf> You have to beat it with a heavy stick to get it to properly play MP4 video, but once you've done that, it's not so bad.
2008-05-15 03:14 < Mark_Ryan> yeah I have some open source codec packs in it to have everything piped through WMP
2008-05-15 03:14 < Blu_Aardvark> My media player of choice is still Winamp, but I've done some experimentation with Songbird, and I use Media Player Classic to handle video, usually.
2008-05-15 03:14 < Mark_Ryan> real player etc
2008-05-15 03:14 < Mark_Ryan> Winamp was a good program for me in its day, like WinZip
2008-05-15 03:14 < Luna-San> I still use WMP for video
2008-05-15 03:14 < Blu_Aardvark> I'd have to install codecs to use WMP. My music format of choice is .ogg.
2008-05-15 03:14 < Blu_Aardvark> And last I checked, Microsoft still didn't like it.
2008-05-15 03:15 < Mark_Ryan> Blu_Aardvark, there's a decent one called the Combined Community Codec Pack that includes most stuff
2008-05-15 03:15 < Mark_Ryan> the only things you have to install on top of that is Real Alternative and QuickTime Alternative
2008-05-15 03:16 < Blu_Aardvark> Ah, well I'll keep that in mind when I'm babsitting computers for people. Better one media player than installing Quicktime, iTunes, Realplayer, and WMP.
2008-05-15 03:18 < Blu_Aardvark> I don't really have a large variety of media formats. Mostly ogg, some mp3s, and a bunch of .flv's I've grabbed off of Youtube and other sites.
2008-05-15 03:18 < Blu_Aardvark> Winamp does require quite a bit of prodding to like .flv, though.
2008-05-15 04:00 < buff_drinkslot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILiad#Book_Edition
2008-05-15 04:00 < buff_drinkslot> price point?
2008-05-15 04:02 < Luna-San> Dunno about the term, but obviously that comment's gotta go. Nixed that. :p
2008-05-15 04:03 < The359> does the price even matter at all?
2008-05-15 04:03 < The359> and what idiot decided to use the same picture twice?
2008-05-15 04:03 < buff_drinkslot> I'm not good at editing so I just wanted to let you know
2008-05-15 04:04 < Luna-San> Thanks, by the way. :)
2008-05-15 04:09 < E_Wing> damn it
2008-05-15 04:12 < E_Wing> There's someone who's been adding a "I not understend what U want" phrase using multiple ips
2008-05-15 04:12 < Luna-San> Yeah, I noticed that
2008-05-15 04:12 < Luna-San> See any that still need blocking?
2008-05-15 04:13 < E_Wing> An ip got 4 vandal warnings from me already
2008-05-15 04:14 < E_Wing> Erm, make that 2 ips
2008-05-15 04:15 < Luna-San> I've just been blocking them on sight. >.>
2008-05-15 04:15 < E_Wing> Probably there's a group that's putting this damn phrase on wiki
2008-05-15 04:21 * E_Wing is tired reverting the phrase "I not understend what U want"
2008-05-15 04:26 < WonRyong> 2008-05-15 AM 12:24 LA
2008-05-15 04:55 < Ral315> [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost]] updated.
2008-05-15 04:59 < rainman-sr> good work
2008-05-15 05:16 * brown_cat cuddles JessicaTaylor
2008-05-15 05:16 < brown_cat> sup?
2008-05-15 05:17 < JessicaTaylor> nothing much
2008-05-15 05:17 < JessicaTaylor> how are you?
2008-05-15 05:17 < brown_cat> very good, going to a show tonight :D
2008-05-15 05:18 < JessicaTaylor> cool
2008-05-15 05:21 * StayTuned is happy
2008-05-15 05:21 < brown_cat> StayTuned: why?
2008-05-15 05:22 < StayTuned> just went to Dunkin Donuts - think my gf is home from out of the country
2008-05-15 05:22 < StayTuned> her IM has been on for a day - just keep crossing paths with her
2008-05-15 05:23 < Luna-San> Doin' things is what we like to do o.o
2008-05-15 05:24 < StayTuned> :) - well she goes to Dominican Rep. once in a while
2008-05-15 05:24 < StayTuned> I will see her in July! woot!
2008-05-15 05:25 < kisbes> hi, where can I get the vandalfighter?
2008-05-15 05:25 < StayTuned> brb
2008-05-15 05:25 < Luna-San> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RCP#Tools
2008-05-15 05:26 < Kofiz> I should go to bed I think my last edit will stir up unnecessary controversy >_>
2008-05-15 05:28 < kisbes> http://hekla.rave.org/vf/3.3/vf33-English.jar is dead and svn as well
2008-05-15 05:29 < StayTuned> its getting closer and closer to June 7 everyday
2008-05-15 05:29 < StayTuned> and I should get my first printed copy of book 3 today
2008-05-15 05:29 < StayTuned> if the mail is on schedule
2008-05-15 05:31 < StayTuned> hi Mark_Ryan
2008-05-15 05:33 < StayTuned> yep - its available
2008-05-15 05:33 * StayTuned is celebrating
2008-05-15 05:33 < StayTuned> \o/
2008-05-15 05:59 * StayTuned is REALLY Celebrating
2008-05-15 05:59 < StayTuned> \o?\o?\o?\o?\o?\o?\o?\o?\o?\o?\o?
2008-05-15 05:59 < StayTuned> the book is already available all over the world
2008-05-15 06:04 < The359> (who the fuck is he talking to?)
2008-05-15 06:05 < brown_cat> The359: his friends hahaahahah
2008-05-15 06:16 < TheWeasel> o.o Technorati indexes forums
2008-05-15 06:16 < TheWeasel> od
2008-05-15 06:16 < TheWeasel> d
2008-05-15 06:17 < TheWeasel> and is wide open to linkspam
2008-05-15 06:17 < TheWeasel> hm...didn't use to be like that
2008-05-15 06:23 < The359> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Plax_tuck.JPG uhhhh....
2008-05-15 06:23 < The359> Surprise buttsex?
2008-05-15 06:24 < The359> also, since when have photos from whitehouse.gov been acceptable?
2008-05-15 06:37 < TheWeasel> Lol, CNN misspells Frankfort, Kentucky
2008-05-15 06:39 < nsh> http://googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/2008/05/wikipedia-added-to-google-maps.html cool
2008-05-15 06:41 * TheWeasel wishes those street photos would work for somewhere in Europe
2008-05-15 06:45 < eth01> haha.
2008-05-15 06:47 < TopC4T> haii guise!
2008-05-15 06:47 < TopC4T> :)
2008-05-15 06:48 < TheWeasel> o.o nazi papers on de. google news
2008-05-15 06:50 < TheWeasel> i.e. a blog of the right-wing-extremist NPD party posing as an online paper
2008-05-15 06:55 < StayTuned> cool
2008-05-15 06:56 < TheWeasel> 's cool about that?
2008-05-15 06:56 < StayTuned> I'm downloading a mixtape
2008-05-15 07:14 < rocketmaster000> Why won't you make a page on "The New Addams Family"?
2008-05-15 07:18 < pengo> rocketmaster000: why don't you?
2008-05-15 07:22 < rocketmaster000> Pengo, i can't write the page on "The New Addams Family". I don't have any sources, and i wouldn't be notable, anyway.
2008-05-15 07:22 < rocketmaster000> it*
2008-05-15 07:23 < pengo> rocketmaster000: there's already a red link to it fro Addams Family, and you have the internet
2008-05-15 07:23 < rocketmaster000> NO SOURCES! NOT NOTABLE!
2008-05-15 07:23 < pengo> movies are generally notable
2008-05-15 07:24 < pengo> or you can just write about it on the Addams family page
2008-05-15 07:24 < rocketmaster000> Just like my page on WillowTalk.
2008-05-15 07:24 < pengo> and you have the bloody internet
2008-05-15 07:24 < pengo> IMDB
2008-05-15 07:24 < pengo> it probably had Christina Ricci in it
2008-05-15 07:24 < pengo> which makes it notable, if you ask me
2008-05-15 07:24 < pengo> so stop whinging
2008-05-15 07:26 < pengo> but don't expect me to do it, what there isn't even an article on Colonial genocide or Eucalyptus nitens (Shining Gum) or the Errinundra Plateau
2008-05-15 07:30 < rocketmaster000> Work faster, to catch up to the Hungarians. They have 10 million articles.
2008-05-15 07:32 < pengo> but i am hungarian
2008-05-15 07:40 < StayTuned> would anyone like a free download of the first track off of our next unreleased album?
2008-05-15 07:41 < arcimboldo_> how many unreleased albums do you have so far?
2008-05-15 07:41 < StayTuned> 1
2008-05-15 07:41 < StayTuned> 2 released
2008-05-15 07:42 < yao_ziyuan> bhutan is now democratic, right? that freedom in the world 2008 map is a little outdated
2008-05-15 07:42 < StayTuned> Sky Wheel will be avail. on iTunes June 7 - is already available on Jamendo
2008-05-15 07:43 < StayTuned> the current track - Milkweed - was written 2 days ago - and is the promo track I am offering
2008-05-15 07:45 < StayTuned> arcimboldo_ were you interested?
2008-05-15 07:45 < StayTuned> I was actually surprised at the response I got to it from the waitress at Denny's yesterday
2008-05-15 07:45 < StayTuned> she said something about playing at a relative's club
2008-05-15 07:46 < StayTuned> I gave her our contact info
2008-05-15 07:46 < StayTuned> still have to listen to voicemail
2008-05-15 07:54 < StayTuned> anyway - here's the track
2008-05-15 07:54 < StayTuned> http://www.mediafire.com/?iyvrgieo5gy
2008-05-15 08:19 < nsh> yo
2008-05-15 08:19 < Mm40> Hi everyone
2008-05-15 08:19 < nsh> what's the technical term for words like: awesome incredible amazing fantastic, etc. ?
2008-05-15 08:19 < nsh> i want to say superlatives but that's clearly not correct
2008-05-15 08:20 < Mm40> IDK
2008-05-15 08:20 < kenlyric> adjectives?
2008-05-15 08:20 < kenlyric> probably not helpful :)
2008-05-15 08:25 < yao_ziyuan> nsh: hype
2008-05-15 08:32 < Mm40> admin shud empty AIV now
2008-05-15 08:33 < Mm40> 0_0
2008-05-15 08:33 < Mm40> O_O O_O
2008-05-15 08:33 < Mm40> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:170.158.160.4#May_2008
2008-05-15 08:33 < Mm40> That is alot of vandalism
2008-05-15 08:45 < geniice> need an american
2008-05-15 08:45 < geniice> !american
2008-05-15 08:45 < Zginder> Yes, what do you need?
2008-05-15 08:46 < geniice> Zginder http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/ViewLargeImage.cfm?ID=BHC3600 coppied to commons
2008-05-15 08:46 < geniice> Zginder or en.wikipedia
2008-05-15 08:46 < E_Wing> Can somebody check the notability of a person named "Haim Watzman"?
2008-05-15 08:47 < geniice> E_Wing the journalist?
2008-05-15 08:47 < Zginder> Why does an American need to do it?
2008-05-15 08:48 < E_Wing> geniice: I think so
2008-05-15 08:48 < geniice> Zginder because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel_Corp. applies under US law not british
2008-05-15 08:48 < geniice> E_Wing wrote Company C: An American's Life as a Citizen-Soldier in Israel so probably
2008-05-15 08:48 < E_Wing> hmm
2008-05-15 08:49 < E_Wing> So my tagging of a CSD on it is wrong
2008-05-15 08:49 < geniice> and google news turns up[ 257 results
2008-05-15 08:49 < E_Wing> Damn me
2008-05-15 08:49 < geniice> E_Wing no
2008-05-15 08:50 < E_Wing> What do you mean no?
2008-05-15 08:50 < geniice> Haim Watzman eh looking at the actual article probably though
2008-05-15 08:50 < Zginder> What is the license it would be under?
2008-05-15 08:51 < geniice> Zginder public domain the author ( Willem van de Velde, the Younger) died April 6, 1707
2008-05-15 08:51 < pengo> terrible day that
2008-05-15 08:54 < Zginder> What is the Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. lenses template?
2008-05-15 08:56 < geniice> Zginder commons has it built into PD-art
2008-05-15 08:57 < geniice> Zginder as does en
2008-05-15 08:59 < Zginder_> I posted as [[Image:The royal yacht 'Royal Escape'.jpg]]
2008-05-15 09:01 < geniice> Zginder_> cool
2008-05-15 09:02 * TheWeasel orders an anti-chemtrail contraption
2008-05-15 09:03 < cctoide> This scares me more than a little bit http://www.youtube.com/user/TourFactory
2008-05-15 09:12 < StayTuned> Barack Obama has apologized to a Michigan TV reporter for calling her "sweetie" and dodging her question about autoworkers. <=== LOL Barack showing them who wears the pants
2008-05-15 09:12 < StayTuned> USA TODAY
2008-05-15 09:29 < nsh> bah
2008-05-15 09:29 < nsh> apologising for using a term of endearment
2008-05-15 09:29 < nsh> if he'd called her "spunk incubator" there might be a case for apology
2008-05-15 09:30 < StayTuned> I don't know if I should laugh or cry
2008-05-15 09:30 < nsh> practice doing both
2008-05-15 09:30 < nsh> you'll appreciate it when insanity becomes inevitable
2008-05-15 09:31 < StayTuned> :) :(
2008-05-15 09:37 < nsh> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/15/2246223.htm (Zimbabwe introduces half billion dollar note)
2008-05-15 09:37 < nsh> "The new highest denomination note would buy about two loaves of bread.", "Zimbabwe, which has the highest inflation rate in the world at around 165,000 percent, has been beset by long queues at banks as consumers seek bank notes to stock up on basic goods, the prices of which are constantly rising."
2008-05-15 09:38 < nsh> how do you fuck up an economy _that_ badly
2008-05-15 09:40 < zocky> nsh, by following IMF programs, of course
2008-05-15 09:40 < nsh> :-/
2008-05-15 09:41 < nsh> i'm starting to believe there will be world-war in my lifetime
2008-05-15 09:42 < zocky> well, we're somewhere around ~1900 in the great cyclical game of risk
2008-05-15 09:43 < zocky> we have a globalized economy, insanely rich individuals who are as powerful as governments, warmongering as the default political discourse, etc.
2008-05-15 09:44 * nsh is picturing a socioeconomic tsunami
2008-05-15 09:45 < nsh> the wave is barely perceptible out at the sea of poverty, but as it converges upon the shallower waters of relative prosperity, it rises to become a tidal force washing away stability
2008-05-15 09:45 < nsh> all in all, good times ahead
2008-05-15 09:47 < geniice> nsh nuclear weapons are the factor that make most of those meaningless
2008-05-15 09:47 < geniice> What I suspect we will see is a shift in how wars are conducted.
2008-05-15 09:52 * Buffalosoldier92 seeks to destroy internet explorer
2008-05-15 09:52 * StayTuned celebrates the arrival of a tax refund check
2008-05-15 09:53 < zocky> geniice, yeah, we'll see the superpowers dropping killer robots on third-world countries to figure out whose bots are better
2008-05-15 09:53 < StayTuned> hey did anyone see that movie Cloverfield?
2008-05-15 09:54 < Buffalosoldier92> o.o
2008-05-15 09:55 < StayTuned> it was really pretty sharp
2008-05-15 09:55 < Buffalosoldier92> I heard it made people sick
2008-05-15 09:56 < StayTuned> Lol - might make some people sick - dude it was like a PG-13 blair witch style Monster Eats NY movie
2008-05-15 09:56 < zocky> damn, simple: has the same systemic bias problem as en:
2008-05-15 09:57 < zocky> some people think en: is for english people, and some people seem to think that simple: is for simple people
2008-05-15 09:57 < zocky> "Hungarians and Romanians live near the Slavic nations, but they are not Slavs themselves. However, there are more Slavic peoples than any other ethnic group in Europe."
2008-05-15 09:57 < geniice> zocky not for a while outside a few aplications bots are not realy there yet
2008-05-15 09:58 < geniice> StayTuned enjoying your goverment handout? Now you to can experence life as a farmer
2008-05-15 09:58 < zocky> geniice, give it 15-20 years
2008-05-15 09:58 < Cream> hi geniice and zocky <3
2008-05-15 09:58 < StayTuned> geniice - yep - all $42.99 of it - for the work I did last summer
2008-05-15 09:58 < geniice> zocky probably 20 but bots will likely make the major powers a lot more intoventionist
2008-05-15 09:59 < geniice> StayTuned oh I thought you were talking about bush's rebate
2008-05-15 09:59 < StayTuned> ummm... no - New York State Income Tax
2008-05-15 09:59 < zocky> ah, I got my income tax refund too
2008-05-15 09:59 < StayTuned> btw - I am a licensed NYS Insurance Agent because of that job - and I will never again work in Insurance
2008-05-15 09:59 < zocky> a bit over 1000 euros
2008-05-15 10:00 < geniice> StayTuned well enjoy life as a student then
2008-05-15 10:00 < StayTuned> geniice - yeah - I'm getting tired of taking on Insurance Companies and bad business
2008-05-15 10:00 < Cream> interesting AfD atm
2008-05-15 10:01 < StayTuned> I had to turn them in to the NYS Insurance board for fraudulent activities
2008-05-15 10:01 < StayTuned> They have since packed up and left town
2008-05-15 10:02 < StayTuned> I don't credit myself for everything that happened there
2008-05-15 10:02 < StayTuned> they were bound to go down in flames
2008-05-15 10:02 < geniice> honestly. Of all the flaws a new employee could have it had to be honestly
2008-05-15 10:03 < StayTuned> http://unitedhealthcareisthedevil.blogspot.com/
2008-05-15 10:04 < StayTuned> btw - I'm by no means new to the call center business
2008-05-15 10:04 < StayTuned> Teletech's CEO was under investigation by the SEC while I was working there for Stock Dumping
2008-05-15 10:06 * JessicaTaylor has a history project due tomorrow :(
2008-05-15 10:06 < StayTuned> http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/1996/07/08/newscolumn1.html
2008-05-15 10:07 < Juliancolton> What's wrong with WP?
2008-05-15 10:07 < StayTuned> "The telephone giant made the "Corporate Killers" cover of Newsweek for paying CEO Bob Allen big bucks and then firing thousands of workers. These days, AT&T is TeleTech's biggest customer, accounting for an estimated 31 percent of its business during 1996."
2008-05-15 10:09 < StayTuned> http://www.secinfo.com/dRqWm.55Wa.htm
2008-05-15 10:09 < bumm13> fun stuff :P
2008-05-15 10:10 < StayTuned> thanks bumm13 - I try hard
2008-05-15 10:10 < bumm13> heh
2008-05-15 10:10 < StayTuned> I have that SEC investigation listed on my resume
2008-05-15 10:10 < bumm13> \o/
2008-05-15 10:10 < StayTuned> in otherwords - if I don't want to work with you - you will know why
2008-05-15 10:11 < mattbuck> humm, the ref desk has changed from the avril lavigne fanclub to the summer glau fanclub
2008-05-15 10:11 < StayTuned> big business needs a kick in the Arse
2008-05-15 10:13 < geniice> mattbuck?
2008-05-15 10:13 < geniice> on the pluss side number of copyvio zac effron photos has fallen
2008-05-15 10:16 < Lycurgus> a telling thing is how they are funding the democrats at 4 times the rate of the republicans this year
2008-05-15 10:17 < Lycurgus> (i.e big biz)
2008-05-15 10:17 < StayTuned> http://news.findlaw.com/prnewswire/20080225/25feb20081800.html
2008-05-15 10:17 < StayTuned> oooh juicy
2008-05-15 10:17 < StayTuned> Class Action Suit
2008-05-15 10:17 < Lycurgus> "the republican brand" is pretty worthless this year, so the money moves to the other one
2008-05-15 10:19 < Lycurgus> different brands, but same shit really
2008-05-15 10:22 < Directory> hiiiiiiiiiii
2008-05-15 10:23 < quanticle> Lycurgus: Is there a specific industry, or are you talking about big business in general?
2008-05-15 10:24 < Mm40> Hi Directory. Can we help u?
2008-05-15 10:24 < quanticle> mattbuck: Its because of that one XKCD isn't it?
2008-05-15 10:24 * quanticle recurses into Directory
2008-05-15 10:26 < Lycurgus> quanticle: i think the 4:1 ratio was the financial industry but not sure; the general figure would be similar
2008-05-15 10:27 < quanticle> Lycurgus: Hmm. I'd suspect that Hollywood also gives to the Democrats at a similar ratio, but that's been the case historically.
2008-05-15 10:37 < TheWeasel> Wow... the Elders of Zion forgeries contain a plan to blow up cities per subway systems
2008-05-15 10:37 < TheWeasel> Wtf.
2008-05-15 10:38 < bumm13> hmm?
2008-05-15 10:38 < TheWeasel> the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are far more absurdly crude than I thought
2008-05-15 10:39 * bumm13 NP: WASP - Sleeping (In The Fire) (1984)
2008-05-15 10:39 < bumm13> do they address the digitization of TV signals? :)
2008-05-15 10:40 < TheWeasel> They were made in Czarist Russia.
2008-05-15 10:40 < TheWeasel> Nuff sed.
2008-05-15 10:40 < bumm13> heh
2008-05-15 10:40 < bumm13> howdy Fire
2008-05-15 10:42 * quanticle doesn't get the point behind that TeleTech story. Small companies grow like weeds and have poor P/E ratios - what else is new?
2008-05-15 10:44 < geniice> from the days of old
2008-05-15 10:44 < geniice> gopher://rachael.dyndns.org/00/text/Axis%20of%20Evil%20Wannabes%20by%20John%20Cleese.txt
2008-05-15 10:45 < nsh> *youä'
2008-05-15 10:45 < nsh> yeah, that
2008-05-15 10:46 < yao_ziyuan> i installed pidgin-encryption
2008-05-15 10:46 < yao_ziyuan> a pidgin plugin that encrypts IM messages with RSA 4096-bit
2008-05-15 10:47 < yao_ziyuan> then i feel so free to say anything
2008-05-15 10:47 * nsh frowns
2008-05-15 10:48 < nsh> how many of your buddies have pidgin-encryption?
2008-05-15 10:48 < yao_ziyuan> nsh: i manually persuaded some of them to install it
2008-05-15 10:48 < nsh> it might have been easier just to vomit ascii over the aim protocol
2008-05-15 10:48 * nsh smiles
2008-05-15 10:49 < nsh> there really needs to be a more concerted effort to make communication encyption default
2008-05-15 10:49 < nsh> opt-out rather than opt-in
2008-05-15 10:50 < nsh> at the moment, encryption is largely counter-productive
2008-05-15 10:50 < yao_ziyuan> for whom?
2008-05-15 10:50 < yao_ziyuan> only counter-productive for IM servers
2008-05-15 10:51 < nsh> counter-productive for those wishing to maintain a low profile
2008-05-15 10:51 < yao_ziyuan> i want to define a role model: "Free Chinese"
2008-05-15 10:51 < yao_ziyuan> who must:
2008-05-15 10:51 < yao_ziyuan> 1. use linux
2008-05-15 10:51 < yao_ziyuan> 2. use pidgin + pidgin-encryption
2008-05-15 10:51 < yao_ziyuan> 3. ...
2008-05-15 10:51 < yao_ziyuan> 3. use tor.
2008-05-15 10:51 < yao_ziyuan> 4. subscribe to wired news and slashdot science
2008-05-15 10:52 < nsh> tor is a good example
2008-05-15 10:52 < yao_ziyuan> 5. have a "freedom in the world 2008" map on his hard disk
2008-05-15 10:52 < yao_ziyuan> ...
2008-05-15 10:52 < yao_ziyuan> lol
2008-05-15 10:52 < nsh> http://bobhonest.blogspot.com/2007/12/anonymous-p2p-dangers-of-tor.html
2008-05-15 10:52 < nsh> meh, not the article i was looking for
2008-05-15 10:53 < JessicaTaylor> Night night everybody
2008-05-15 10:53 < yao_ziyuan> night night you prince of new england
2008-05-15 10:53 < yao_ziyuan> in that movie, that boy fucks well
2008-05-15 10:53 < nsh> http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2007/09/embassy_hacks?currentPage=1
2008-05-15 10:53 < yao_ziyuan> from under that girl's skirt
2008-05-15 10:53 * nsh waves to JessicaTaylor and her imaginary horse
2008-05-15 10:53 * JessicaTaylor wavies and trots away on Spirit
2008-05-15 10:54 < quanticle> Meh. yao_ziyuan, I think you'll find that the vast majority of Chinese, like the vast majority of Americans, really don't care how much freedom they have.
2008-05-15 10:54 * nsh smiles
2008-05-15 10:54 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: yes
2008-05-15 10:54 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: i mean yes they don't
2008-05-15 10:54 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: yesterday people in #wikipedia-ru also told me this
2008-05-15 10:55 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: That Chinese people don't care about freedom or that Russian people don't care about freedom?
2008-05-15 10:56 < yao_ziyuan> freedom is the paranoid's ideal
2008-05-15 10:56 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: russian
2008-05-15 10:57 < geniice> quanticle people care about the group they feel part of. Freedom and democracy? not so much
2008-05-15 10:58 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: but you can't deny that america has more freedom paranoids than other countries
2008-05-15 10:58 < yao_ziyuan> geniice: what about the group Free World
2008-05-15 10:58 < geniice> yao_ziyuan how many divisions do they have?
2008-05-15 10:59 < yao_ziyuan> geniice: what kind of division? make an example
2008-05-15 11:00 < geniice> Well tank divisions are typical but light infrantry can be enough under the right conditions
2008-05-15 11:00 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: Heh. I guess that's true. Although, arguably, those "freedom paranoids" do as much to hurt their cause as they do to help it.
2008-05-15 11:00 < quanticle> geniice: You don't need too many divisions to set up an insurgency.
2008-05-15 11:01 < quanticle> The issue is getting explosives, mainly.
2008-05-15 11:02 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: you're the cynics type that Rumsfeld referred to
2008-05-15 11:02 < quanticle> Hell, if I was creating a strategy to counter the US army, the first thing I'd do is plan to abandon the tanks, retreat into the cities and the woods and plant IEDs.
2008-05-15 11:02 < yao_ziyuan> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Donald_Rumsfeld
2008-05-15 11:02 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: Well, we all saw how well Rumsfeld's plan turned out, right?
2008-05-15 11:02 < quanticle> :P
2008-05-15 11:03 < yao_ziyuan> Notable Quotes: Rumsfeld On Idealists And Cynics
2008-05-15 11:03 < yao_ziyuan> "You may find people who will contend that patriotism is something to be a little bit embarrassed about or that honor is somewhat outdated as a notion and that concentrating on America's imperfection makes you a realist. Not so. That's the sign of a cynic. Being a cynic is easy. You can just sit back, heckle from the cheap seats, while others serve, storm beaches, build nations, meet their destinies. Idealists write history's stirring chapters; cy
2008-05-15 11:04 < quanticle> Heh. But what Rumsfeld doesn't seem to realize is that the only idealists we remember are those that "beat the odds" and were successful.
2008-05-15 11:05 < quanticle> Rumsfeld also doesn't realize that, in the vast majority of cases, the cynics are right.
2008-05-15 11:05 < Demi> the way the american left has allowed the right to redefine patriotism on its own terms has irritated me very much. rumsfeld has a point, and it's galling.
2008-05-15 11:06 < bumm13> hiya Demi
2008-05-15 11:06 < quanticle> Demi: What do you mean by, "Rumsfeld has a point?"
2008-05-15 11:06 * bumm13 fights wars against teen angst
2008-05-15 11:06 < bumm13> (and drugs, of course)
2008-05-15 11:06 < quanticle> bumm13: What are you, some kind of anti-emo?
2008-05-15 11:07 < bumm13> it's all part of the greater War Against Abstractions!
2008-05-15 11:07 < quanticle> bumm13: Also, don't you know we lost the war on drugs?
2008-05-15 11:07 < Demi> quanticle - "You may find people who will contend that patriotism is something to be a little bit embarrassed about or that honor is somewhat outdated as a notion and that concentrating on America's imperfection makes you a realist." <- this bit
2008-05-15 11:08 < bumm13> quanticle: there's always the War Against Shoplifting
2008-05-15 11:08 < Demi> we have let the notion of patriotism here align with the idea of following a cnservative political agenda, being down with the "war on terror", etc.
2008-05-15 11:08 < bumm13> (aka "terrorist acts against retail-store inventory")
2008-05-15 11:08 < Demi> bumm13 - hehe
2008-05-15 11:08 < quanticle> Demi: Ah. Well, I'm somewhat conflicted about that, since, arguably, honor has never been part of war. Chivalry and honor are largely myths, and exist only to make the last conflict seem more romantic than the current one.
2008-05-15 11:09 < Demi> i was thinking more about love of country, and how dissenters' failure to assert it opens the door to "if you love your country, you must love republican policies"
2008-05-15 11:10 < bumm13> we are winning the War Against Gainful Employment ;p
2008-05-15 11:10 < yao_ziyuan> it seems america wants to peacefully open burma's door. US Pacific Command's Keating arrived in burma on a C-130
2008-05-15 11:10 < bumm13> (heh, WAGE)
2008-05-15 11:10 < Demi> when a leftist group sues a local fire district to prevent them from putting the american flag on their uniforms, that feeds right into the (silly) point that if you're not with (the war, the erosion of civil rights, the spending on stupid domestic "security policies") you must be some kind of internal enemy
2008-05-15 11:11 < quanticle> Demi: Ah. That's a fair point. Fortunately, it seems that this time the American public is realizing its possible to oppose the war while supporting the troops, regardless of what the Republicans are claiming.
2008-05-15 11:11 < Demi> the bush administration has treated "the troops" terribly in a variety of ways
2008-05-15 11:12 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: Yeah. Well, to be fair, invading a country probably isn't the best way to ensure speedy delivery of relief supplies to refugees.
2008-05-15 11:12 < bumm13> (cutting veterans medical benefits)
2008-05-15 11:12 < bumm13> wait, they should be kissing the floor of the VA Hospital to be back in America! ;p
2008-05-15 11:13 < bumm13> (including the ones with leaky roofs)
2008-05-15 11:13 < Demi> yeah, it goes up and down the spectrum, from relatively minor things, to things like that and a lack of effective equipment or battle plans, to the whole issue of expending american lives to further geopolitical and oil economic goals
2008-05-15 11:14 < quanticle> Demi: Yeah, no kidding. Its angered me to no end that Bush has managed to push through his "emergency spending measures" funding the ongoing Iraq conflict while simultaneously cutting VA funding. And, when Congress tries to object, he plays the "you don't support the troops" card.
2008-05-15 11:14 < Demi> as far as i'm concerned, that's taking a giant dump on "the troops"
2008-05-15 11:14 < bumm13> indeed
2008-05-15 11:14 < Demi> it makes me concerned in a larger, long-term sense when the military is so politically unified, too
2008-05-15 11:15 < Demi> i think that's fed by the notion that left-leaning political views involve a contempt for the united states; so if you love your country, you must want to be a republican. and one result is that the military, especially its leadership, is overwhelmingly republican
2008-05-15 11:16 < quanticle> Demi: What do you mean? The upper echelons of the military may have bought into the political system, but the mid-level officer corps is fast shrinking, largely due to disillusionment with the handling of the Iraq conflict.
2008-05-15 11:16 < Demi> right, well it's been more of a long-term trend
2008-05-15 11:17 < quanticle> The US Army is facing a shortage of Lieutenants and Captains, because lots are escaping to less risky, higher paying positions in private industry. Upon exiting, many are saying that they'd have liked to stay, but the didn't feel like the "real army" was getting political support from the "top brass". In other words, they felt like their reports and views were being squashed for contradicting political sensibilities.
2008-05-15 11:18 < Demi> yeah, and at the lowest level they've had to lower recruitment criteria, and of course there's the well-publicized keeping of troops past their tour ends and so forth
2008-05-15 11:19 < Ningyou> introduce conscription again!
2008-05-15 11:19 < Vystrix_Nexoth> I wrote up a {{Navbox}}-using version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Case_table (a proposed version of which can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vystrix_Nexoth/Case_table ). I'm going to update it, but, the original one is a sidebar, while my version is a regular bottom-of-the-page box.
2008-05-15 11:20 < Vystrix_Nexoth> so should I make a new template and update pages to use that, or just replace the current one and update pages to use it properly? and if so, should I update the pages or template first?
2008-05-15 11:20 < Demi> conscription vastly widens the number of people with an opinion on how the military is run, it is in fact the last thing the military or current political leaders would want
2008-05-15 11:20 < quanticle> Ningyou: You can constrict cannon fodder, but not officers. The real shortage is in the low to mid-level officer corps.
2008-05-15 11:21 < quanticle> *conscript, even.
2008-05-15 11:21 < Ningyou> true, but 1) who cares about the opinion of people outside the army? 2) conscripts don't have opinions :P
2008-05-15 11:21 < Ningyou> quanticle: but you get access to large pool of candidates
2008-05-15 11:21 < Ningyou> where you can pick the best :P
2008-05-15 11:21 < zocky> I have an idea how I could make a pie chart template
2008-05-15 11:21 < Demi> oh, but they do. "they knew the risks" and "they knew what they were getting into" and "they signed up for the reserves" is used to justify quite a bit.
2008-05-15 11:21 < quanticle> Ningyou: Officers have to be motivated.
2008-05-15 11:21 < zocky> but I would need to upload 400 pictures :\
2008-05-15 11:21 < Demi> zocky - square pies?
2008-05-15 11:22 < Ningyou> quanticle: who knows, maybe some of the conscripts realise they actually like it in the army? :P
2008-05-15 11:22 < zocky> Demi, pie sections in 4 semi-transparent colours
2008-05-15 11:22 < quanticle> Ningyou: Meh. If that were the case, the Soviet Army would have been the best in the world.
2008-05-15 11:22 < Ningyou> well, it works in Finland, why not in the USA? :P
2008-05-15 11:22 < Ningyou> Soviet army had other problems
2008-05-15 11:23 < Ningyou> that really have nothing to do with the conscription system
2008-05-15 11:23 < Ningyou> the whole Russia is a fucked up place, nothing that works there works anywhere else and the other way around
2008-05-15 11:23 < Ningyou> :D
2008-05-15 11:23 < Ningyou> remember, in Soviet Russia the car rides you
2008-05-15 11:24 < zocky> Demi, overlay pie segments in succession, each starting from the running total of percents and ending at the full circle, cycling through the colours, if you know what I mean
2008-05-15 11:24 < quanticle> Ningyou: Really? I know that a lot of European countries have mandatory military service. I guess I don't know how that works, as far as quality of troops goes. My biggest concern with conscription is that we'll end up with the same army we had at the end of Vietnam.
2008-05-15 11:24 < Demi> maybe the way to avoid that is to go ahead and have the draft but don't involve the military in foreign adventures
2008-05-15 11:25 < Ningyou> remember, Nazi Germany had conscription too :P
2008-05-15 11:25 < zocky> generally, a conscripted army is a Good Thing
2008-05-15 11:25 < Ningyou> but if you think that you get 80% of the age group to enter military service, you are bound to get few good ones from that mass of men :P
2008-05-15 11:25 < quanticle> Ningyou: Well, at the time, so did the US. However, in World War 2, military service was seen as a patriotic duty, not as a burden.
2008-05-15 11:25 < zocky> it tends to make military adventures harder
2008-05-15 11:26 < quanticle> zocky: No. Conscripted militaries are a *bad thing* because they reduce the overall quality of your troops.
2008-05-15 11:26 < zocky> quanticle, if your goal is to win wars, maybe
2008-05-15 11:26 < quanticle> zocky: Unmotivated people make poor soldiers.
2008-05-15 11:26 < Ningyou> quanticle: wasn't consctription started quite late in the war? or atleast it wasn't used at first?
2008-05-15 11:26 < quanticle> zocky: The purpose of any army is to win wars.
2008-05-15 11:26 < zocky> if your goal is to avoid wars, than the quality of your troops isn't necessarily that important
2008-05-15 11:26 < Ningyou> quanticle: motivation has nothing to do with conscription :P
2008-05-15 11:27 < Ningyou> or well, a little, yes
2008-05-15 11:27 < Vystrix_Nexoth> (note to self: just because it's real-time doesn't mean it's faster or more responsive)
2008-05-15 11:27 < quanticle> Ningyou: World War 2? No, in World War 2, conscription started right after Pearl Harbor.
2008-05-15 11:27 < Demi> i'm not sure "quality" is an absolute here
2008-05-15 11:27 * Vystrix_Nexoth posts on talk page instead
2008-05-15 11:27 < Demi> it's not like society's winners enlist in the military, in the kinds of jobs for which you'd use the draft
2008-05-15 11:27 < quanticle> zocky: If your goal is to avoid wars, then having an standing military doesn't affect things one way or the other.
2008-05-15 11:27 < Ningyou> quanticle: 1941? that's quite late, if I remember correctly, germans were conscripting way before the war :P
2008-05-15 11:27 < zocky> quanticle, of course it does. unprotected countries get invaded.
2008-05-15 11:28 < Demi> Vystrix_Nexoth - i read your question, but i don't really have an opinion for the sidebar vs. bottom issue
2008-05-15 11:28 < Vystrix_Nexoth> well, I've pretty much decided to change it (in accordance with WP:BOLD). I'm mainly just asking how it should be done.
2008-05-15 11:29 < quanticle> zocky: Really? Switzerland doesn't have a standing military, and as I recall Poland did. I'd argue that terrain, resources, and politics have far more to do with whether your country gets invaded than the presence or absence of a standing army.
2008-05-15 11:29 < Vystrix_Nexoth> make a new template? or update the existing one (and wind up with a bunch of articles with out-of-place templates until they're updated)?
2008-05-15 11:29 < zocky> Vystrix_Nexoth, the problem is that you will have to move the template call in the articles
2008-05-15 11:29 < Ningyou> anyways, "professional armies" don't get the same "material" as conscription armies, a lot of educated or other wise "better" men tend not to risk their lives volunteerily :P
2008-05-15 11:30 < zocky> Vystrix_Nexoth, I think the best way is to make a new template, fix the articles, and then redirect the old template to the new one
2008-05-15 11:30 < Ningyou> I know I wouldn't join the army, but I had to spend a year there :P
2008-05-15 11:30 < Vystrix_Nexoth> yeah. I'm willing to do that, just don't want to leave the articles broken while the change is underway
2008-05-15 11:30 < Ningyou> so, who knows, I could have been the next super general or something
2008-05-15 11:30 < zocky> Vystrix_Nexoth, the whole classification is somewhat shady, but meh
2008-05-15 11:30 < Vystrix_Nexoth> if I update the articles first, there's a sidebar sticking out the bottom; if I update the template first, there's a template at the top that should be at the bottom. x_x
2008-05-15 11:31 < Vystrix_Nexoth> yeah, the classification can be adjusted later without having to retool everything.
2008-05-15 11:31 < Demi> Ningyou - well, at the very least you might have been a better soldier in some ways then a voluntary enlistee--in the u.s. people enlisting at the bottom of the military tend to be those with no other choices.
2008-05-15 11:31 < Ningyou> yeah
2008-05-15 11:31 < Demi> that's one reason i don't know if you could conceptualize the "quality" of a military as a single, absolute measure
2008-05-15 11:31 < Ningyou> unfortunately I was merely a lowly rifleman ;D
2008-05-15 11:32 < Demi> it seems to me that conscription changes a military in ways that might make it better at some things and worse than others
2008-05-15 11:32 < zocky> Demi, and again, it depends on what the society is financing the military for
2008-05-15 11:32 < Demi> Ningyou - i doubt there's really any job where intelligence and ability are completely useless
2008-05-15 11:32 < zocky> if you want to invade foreign countries, then having soldiers who like that sort of thing is a good thing for you
2008-05-15 11:33 < zocky> if you want to prevent others from invading you, then maybe you need different soldiers
2008-05-15 11:33 < Demi> zocky - right. so the counterargument for that is, it might be better to have the ablity to effectively involve yourself in these things before waiting to be attacked at pearl harbor
2008-05-15 11:33 < Ningyou> Demi: ofcourse not, but a single rifleman is nothing more than a cannon fodder :P a number in the list
2008-05-15 11:34 < zocky> Demi, of course, there are arguments and counterarguments to that, but that's really a separate discussion. it has more to do with primitive justice systems than with conscription :)
2008-05-15 11:35 < quanticle> Ningyou: Volunteer armies may not get the same material as professional armies, but professional armies get to keep their material and invest more training and equipment in each soldier. In other words, why would you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in equimpment, comestibles, and trainer time on a soldier you're going to lose in four years?
2008-05-15 11:36 < quanticle> '"The freeway is the last stronghold of the car, so when you've got 30 cyclists flying down the lanes, you feel like General Custer, you feel like the good guys,"' <-- Wasn't General Custer a *bad* guy?
2008-05-15 11:36 < Demi> quanticle - it's not like a conscripted army can't recruit volunteers.
2008-05-15 11:36 * quanticle always thought that Custer deserved what he got
2008-05-15 11:36 < Ningyou> quanticle: because you are going to lose soldiers anyways, professional soldiers are a lot more expensive, yet they die just the same way as others (their training time isn't even longer than conscript training here in Finland). + they don't seem to want to fight, for example, in Iraq :P
2008-05-15 11:36 < zocky> Demi, and of course, there's the utilitarian argument that waiting to be attacked at pearl harbor possibly makes you ultimately more likely to win the war (and peace), than if you attacked preemptively.
2008-05-15 11:37 < Demi> zocky - yes, all hypotheticals
2008-05-15 11:37 < Demi> zocky - i think we agree that a conscripted army, to a greater degree, needs to be convinced to fight effectively
2008-05-15 11:38 < zocky> yeah, it takes more than money or gunghoism to get a conscripted army to fight
2008-05-15 11:38 < zocky> you need either a real threat, or a very good propaganda machine
2008-05-15 11:38 < quanticle> Ningyou: Arguably, professional armies lose fewer soldiers, because each soldier is more highly trained and has better equipment. As an example, I ask you this, "Could we afford to provide sophisticated body armor to every soldier in a conscripted military? Would we want to? I mean, conscripts are just cannon fodder, after all."
2008-05-15 11:39 < Ningyou> body armors are merely playing with little things, they don't save that much people
2008-05-15 11:39 < Ningyou> it's not like the current body armor used by the US army & marines is a good one :P
2008-05-15 11:40 < Lycurgus> it's all so depressingly primitive isn't it?
2008-05-15 11:40 < Ningyou> so, I'd say, that yes, conscription army could afford that too
2008-05-15 11:40 < Vystrix_Nexoth> I think volunteer armies are the only legitimate ones. if a country has to force its people to defend it, rather than the people choosing to do so themselves, perhaps it's not worth defending?
2008-05-15 11:40 < Ningyou> I mean, you don't need more people to fight in Iraq, conscription or not
2008-05-15 11:40 < Ningyou> you can just send the best :P
2008-05-15 11:40 < Demi> quanticle - well, i think if you are comparing a volunteer to partly conscripted army, you have to factor out differences in size or equipment. there's no necessary difference in either.
2008-05-15 11:41 < Demi> zocky - to fight effectively, you can just make them fight through threat and punishment but i suspect they won't individually be that effective. they certainly won't be creative or full of initiative.
2008-05-15 11:41 < quanticle> Ningyou: What the *hell* are you talking about? Do you know how many lives advanced body armor has saved? Do you realize that, today, a soldier can take a direct hit to the chest from small arms fire, and be back in service the next day? In World War 2 or Vietnam, a similar injury would have been life threatening at the very least.
2008-05-15 11:42 < Demi> zocky - er, making that clear. "you need either a real threat, or a very good propaganda machine" ... to make them fight effectively.
2008-05-15 11:42 < Lycurgus> all this shit is of a bygone age
2008-05-15 11:42 < quanticle> Demi: That's true. The British managed to conquer half the world with conscripts.
2008-05-15 11:42 < Lycurgus> violent conflict occurs only on the periphery
2008-05-15 11:43 < Ningyou> quanticle: err, the Interceptor Body Armor they have there isn't that great
2008-05-15 11:43 < Ningyou> it's like 20 years old
2008-05-15 11:43 < Lycurgus> great power conflict as in the past is precluded by technology
2008-05-15 11:43 < quanticle> Lycurgus: Meh. In every inter-war period there are people saying that "War is obsolete."
2008-05-15 11:43 < Ningyou> (I have 3 of them at home, btw)
2008-05-15 11:43 < Ningyou> and the SAPI plates it has don't really cover that much
2008-05-15 11:43 < Ningyou> it's a poor body armor
2008-05-15 11:43 < Ningyou> it doesn't save that many people
2008-05-15 11:43 < Ningyou> and it's quite cheap to produce
2008-05-15 11:44 < Ningyou> that's why US Army & Marines use it
2008-05-15 11:44 < Lycurgus> real war became obsolete when it guaranteed the destruction of the elites that wage it
2008-05-15 11:45 < Demi> quanticle - what strikes me, when i read firsthand accounts of the period, is how willingly and enthusiastically they seemed to fight. i admit, though, that i don't know very much about how soldiers were recruited. i know a lot more about how seamen were pressed.
2008-05-15 11:45 < Ningyou> IBA merely protects ones chest & back, and that's the only bullet proof protection it gives, and some better rounds fired by the local snipers (7.62's) do penetrate it from close ranges
2008-05-15 11:45 < quanticle> Ningyou: Again, its a *lot* better than the flak jackets of Vietnam.
2008-05-15 11:45 < Ningyou> flak jackets are flak jackets
2008-05-15 11:45 < Ningyou> back then they didn't think that stopping bullets is important :P
2008-05-15 11:45 < Demi> i think having soldiers piloting giant, heavily armored fighting robots is really the only answer.
2008-05-15 11:45 < Ningyou> they started thinking about stopping bullets during vietnam war
2008-05-15 11:45 < Ningyou> they just didn't have the technology
2008-05-15 11:46 < Ningyou> (they had steel plates that were inserted in small pockets to protect heart for example)
2008-05-15 11:46 < zocky> you can never have enough body armour anyway
2008-05-15 11:46 < Ningyou> yeah
2008-05-15 11:46 < zocky> that's why it was abandoned in the middle ages
2008-05-15 11:46 < Mahlzahn> mew hu
2008-05-15 11:47 < zocky> you wear more armor, the other guy uses a bigger gun
2008-05-15 11:47 < Ningyou> training is what makes soldier a good soldier - and good training can be given to conscripts just as you can give same training to professionals :P
2008-05-15 11:47 < quanticle> Lycurgus: If you're talking about the old, "Conventional war will always escalate into nuclear war," thing, I'm not sure that's the case. I do believe its possible for two great-power level conventional militaries to fight without the conflict escalating into nuclear exchange.
2008-05-15 11:47 < Demi> it seems to me that in modern fighting you never want to fight like forces with like
2008-05-15 11:47 < zocky> more armor become impractical and ineffective long before a bigger gun
2008-05-15 11:47 < zocky> *becomes
2008-05-15 11:47 < quanticle> zocky: That's true. Its a lot easier to build a bigger gun that it is to build tougher armor.
2008-05-15 11:48 < Demi> you want soldiers to kill unarmed people; you want light armor to kill enemy soldiers, you want tanks to kill enemy light armor, you want helicopters to kill tanks, etc.
2008-05-15 11:48 < Ningyou> zocky: well, they are already complaining that the IBA with all these new additions (Side SAPI -plates etc.) are making it difficult to fight :P
2008-05-15 11:48 < Lycurgus> proxy wars occured in the soviet era, even that is probably obsolete now
2008-05-15 11:48 < Mahlzahn> Ningyou: how do you happen to have 3 suits of body armor at home?
2008-05-15 11:48 < Ningyou> Mahlzahn: I'm working in a company that sells military stuff and I collect misc. militaria :P
2008-05-15 11:48 < quanticle> Lycurgus: Nonsense. Iran fought a perfectly good proxy war against Israel a couple years ago.
2008-05-15 11:49 < Ningyou> ad usually sell it after watching it for a while
2008-05-15 11:49 < quanticle> Lycurgus: And, arguably, Iran is fighting a proxy war against us right now.
2008-05-15 11:49 < Lycurgus> neither Iran nor Israel are great powers
2008-05-15 11:49 < Mahlzahn> *blink*
2008-05-15 11:49 < zocky> there can't be a conventional war between great powers
2008-05-15 11:49 < quanticle> Lycurgus: I'd argue that Israel is a great power. Hell, Israel probably has more right to the claim of Great Power than Japan at the moment.
2008-05-15 11:50 < Lycurgus> nonesense
2008-05-15 11:50 < zocky> everyone knows that once a country with nukes is invaded by a country without nukes, the invader will get nuked
2008-05-15 11:50 < zocky> that's why nobody tries such a stupid thing
2008-05-15 11:50 < Demi> the ability to fight a war via a proxy might not be a bad definition of "great power"
2008-05-15 11:50 < Ningyou> Israel has conscription and they have quite effective training etc.
2008-05-15 11:50 < quanticle> zocky: What the hell are you talking about? If great powers can't have wars, then what were World War 1 and 2 all about?
2008-05-15 11:50 < zocky> quanticle, that was before nukes
2008-05-15 11:50 < Demi> i can't really see how you'd define it, otherwise
2008-05-15 11:50 < Ningyou> zocky: I don't think that would be the case :P
2008-05-15 11:51 < Ningyou> the stakes are just too high
2008-05-15 11:51 < zocky> if there's a skirmish between two nuclear powers, it won't be allowed to escalate into a full-scale conventional war
2008-05-15 11:51 < Lycurgus> were talking about now, not a hundred years ago
2008-05-15 11:51 < Mahlzahn> I love sentences that begin with "everyone knows that" :)
2008-05-15 11:51 < Ningyou> they'd probably be ready to do it and waiting for it, but I don't think any of the great powers would want to start one
2008-05-15 11:51 < zocky> because if one side starts a serious conventional war, the other will nuke it immediately, rather than wait
2008-05-15 11:51 < Mahlzahn> like "everyone knows that" the Gulf War was about oil.
2008-05-15 11:51 < quanticle> zocky: I'm still not willing to discount the possibility of great powers having wars against one another. I think the most likely thing right now would be India vs. China, or perhaps Russia vs. China. All you need for a good great power vs. great power conflict are two proud, angry peoples, and a provocation
2008-05-15 11:51 < Ningyou> zocky: you can't destroy a country with nukes, you can destroy their cities, but they can still destroy your cities
2008-05-15 11:52 < Ningyou> that's the point why they acquired that many nukes back in the cold war
2008-05-15 11:52 < quanticle> zocky: False. I don't think that either side would have the balls to use nukes at the beginning.
2008-05-15 11:52 < Demi> yeah, you still need someone to launch first
2008-05-15 11:52 < Lycurgus> the US position has made it certain that any such conflict would be nuclear from the beginning
2008-05-15 11:52 < zocky> Ningyou, that doesn't really change anything. it's still better to attack first than to wait.
2008-05-15 11:52 < Ningyou> Lycurgus: that's all talk
2008-05-15 11:52 < Ningyou> to scare the enemy
2008-05-15 11:52 < quanticle> Lycurgus: No. The US position is that we'll launch at you if you launch at our allies.
2008-05-15 11:52 < Demi> quanticle - aren't india and pakistan both nuclear powers?
2008-05-15 11:52 < zocky> quanticle, that's why such a skirmish would be very likely settled diplomatically
2008-05-15 11:52 < quanticle> Demi: Indeed they are.
2008-05-15 11:52 < Lycurgus> no it isn't
2008-05-15 11:53 < Demi> i could see india and pakistan engaged in sustained fighting with neither side willing to launch first
2008-05-15 11:53 < Ningyou> zocky: how come? if you "attack", the enemy still is capable to kick your nuts and do the same damage to you
2008-05-15 11:53 < quanticle> zocky: Wars can be settled diplomatically too. World War 1 was settled diplomatically.
2008-05-15 11:53 < Lycurgus> the US position is that it will do whatever is required to protect it's interest, including first strikes as required
2008-05-15 11:53 < Lycurgus> *its
2008-05-15 11:53 < Ningyou> it's kinda like trying to stop a speeding car by colliding head on with it at full speed
2008-05-15 11:54 < zocky> Ningyou, if somebody with nukes start a serious invasion of your nuke-protected territory, they're prepared to use nukes. it would be foolish to wait for them to use them before you.
2008-05-15 11:54 < quanticle> Frankly, I think the whole nuke argument doesn't work because the enemies nukes effectively cancel out your own.
2008-05-15 11:54 < Lycurgus> further, the US has a very clearly stated policty of global military dominance
2008-05-15 11:54 < Ningyou> zocky: but the thing is, that it doesn't matter who uses them first
2008-05-15 11:54 < quanticle> Lycurgus: We have the policy, but I'm not sure that we have the military to back up that policy anymore.
2008-05-15 11:55 < Lycurgus> and has explicilty outlined plans where it could take out in first strikes any and all possible opponents
2008-05-15 11:55 < Ningyou> zocky: it doesn't matter who uses first, since the one who gets their ass kicked by nukes is STILL after that capable of doing the same thing to you
2008-05-15 11:55 < zocky> Ningyou, it does matter. the first hit can take out a substantial portion of the enemy's capability
2008-05-15 11:55 < Ningyou> yet they won't be taking out enough nukes
2008-05-15 11:55 < quanticle> zocky: And the counterstrike takes out your own military
2008-05-15 11:55 < Ningyou> exactly
2008-05-15 11:55 < zocky> yes, and both countries are fucked up, but one is fucked up more
2008-05-15 11:55 < Ningyou> that's why during cold war nobody actually used nukes :P
2008-05-15 11:55 < Lycurgus> correct
2008-05-15 11:56 < zocky> that's why nobody with nukes is going to attack anybody else who has nukes
2008-05-15 11:56 < zocky> because they all know that once you start a serious war, all weapons are on the table
2008-05-15 11:56 < Lycurgus> and that is why as I said at the start, war between the great powers is beyond unthinkable
2008-05-15 11:56 < quanticle> zocky: Right, but at that point, it doesn't matter which country is fucked up more, because both countries are effectively dead. That's why nukes cancel each other out.
2008-05-15 11:56 < Demi> i think even with a limited launch, or with conventional incursions, the hesitation to escalate would still be there and could result in a war without total nuclear effort, especially in any scenario except u.s. vs. russia