freenode #wikipedia

2008-05-14 21:20 < Mahlzahn> wth?
2008-05-14 21:20 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: CP?
2008-05-14 21:20 < Lucifer_Cat> do us a favor. dont link it.
2008-05-14 21:20 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Hush.
2008-05-14 21:20 < Krimpet> captain planet, he's our hero?
2008-05-14 21:20 < Mahlzahn> /B/?
2008-05-14 21:20 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Link?
2008-05-14 21:20 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: think of it as hannah montana in basic instinct.
2008-05-14 21:20 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: NOOO
2008-05-14 21:21 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: That still doesn't tell me what it *is*.
2008-05-14 21:21 < Krimpet> oh, it's the copy command in unix. :)
2008-05-14 21:21 < Mahlzahn> quanticle: you are not alone
2008-05-14 21:21 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: MJ stuff
2008-05-14 21:21 < quanticle> Krimpet: Copypasta?
2008-05-14 21:21 < Mahlzahn> quanticle: and I suspect its better that way
2008-05-14 21:21 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: very much.
2008-05-14 21:21 * Messedrocker wonders if his database populating do-while loop did anything effective
2008-05-14 21:22 < Lucifer_Cat> Messedrocker: it didnt.
2008-05-14 21:22 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: Pish tosh.
2008-05-14 21:22 < Mahlzahn> haven't heard that in a while.
2008-05-14 21:22 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Fine. Send me the link in a PM.
2008-05-14 21:22 * Krimpet ~$ cp -a quanticle bizarro_quanticle
2008-05-14 21:22 < Mahlzahn> that expression*
2008-05-14 21:22 < Lucifer_Cat> i can only assume that /b/ + cp = kiddie stuff
2008-05-14 21:23 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: you dont want it in your history
2008-05-14 21:23 < Lucifer_Cat> XD
2008-05-14 21:23 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Not on 4chan. 7chan perhaps.
2008-05-14 21:23 < Lucifer_Cat> a 4chan sympathizer heh :P
2008-05-14 21:23 < Mahlzahn> now what on earth is /that/?
2008-05-14 21:24 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Besides, what you're thinking of is called jailbait. Now, since Ziggy didn't explicitly mention jailbait, it musn't be that.
2008-05-14 21:24 < Lucifer_Cat> http://www.vimeo.com/377260?pg=embed&sec=377260
2008-05-14 21:24 < Lucifer_Cat> jailbait, i'd see. CP... no.
2008-05-14 21:24 < Mahlzahn> DrSkullthumper: where did you see that about the oldest edit?
2008-05-14 21:25 < Krimpet> new topic, please? <_<
2008-05-14 21:25 * Mahlzahn tries lamely to change the subject
2008-05-14 21:25 * Lucifer_Cat smacks Mahlzahn in the head with a copy of WP
2008-05-14 21:25 * Mahlzahn is hurt
2008-05-14 21:26 < Messedrocker> Lucifer_Cat is right
2008-05-14 21:26 < Messedrocker> something went wrong
2008-05-14 21:26 * Lucifer_Cat reverts Mahlzahn to his unhurt state.
2008-05-14 21:26 < Mahlzahn> heavens. IRC feels laggy
2008-05-14 21:26 < Messedrocker> probably a stupid typo
2008-05-14 21:26 < DrSkullthumper> Mahlzahn: One second
2008-05-14 21:26 < Lucifer_Cat> Messedrocker: its called evolution.
2008-05-14 21:26 < quanticle> *sigh* Since Ziggy isn't sending me the link, I guess I'll have to go to /b/ myself.
2008-05-14 21:26 * Lucifer_Cat wishes quanticle farewell
2008-05-14 21:26 < DrSkullthumper> Mahlzahn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:UuU
2008-05-14 21:26 < Lucifer_Cat> one does not simply link into /b/ordor
2008-05-14 21:29 < quanticle> Meh. /b/ today is... well... /b/. I don't see anything out of the ordinary.
2008-05-14 21:29 < Messedrocker> how can one stop a rogue PHP script?
2008-05-14 21:30 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Pull the script from the server.
2008-05-14 21:30 < quanticle> Messedrocker: And kill the PHP interpreter.
2008-05-14 21:30 < kim_> just kill it
2008-05-14 21:31 < Messedrocker> ok, though i don't think i will have to do that
2008-05-14 21:31 < kim_> Messedrocker, type top to find the scripts pid
2008-05-14 21:31 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: I did find this artifact there - its somewhat entertaining and (surprisingly) SFW: http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1210814594020.gif
2008-05-14 21:31 < kim_> then kill -9 it
2008-05-14 21:31 < quanticle> kim_: Heh. "Nuke it from orbit. Its the only way to be sure."
2008-05-14 21:32 < Messedrocker> quanticle, they should make a Conquer Club map out of that
2008-05-14 21:33 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Heh. That'd be epic.
2008-05-14 21:33 < Ziggy_Sawdust> oah shit
2008-05-14 21:33 < Ziggy_Sawdust> They deleted the CP:
2008-05-14 21:33 < quanticle> Heh. I also like this map: http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1210814465201.jpg
2008-05-14 21:33 < quanticle> Also safe for work.
2008-05-14 21:35 < mattbuck> lemme find my map of the usa
2008-05-14 21:35 < Fire> What was the interwiki link for meta?
2008-05-14 21:35 < DrSkullthumper> [[m:]] I think?
2008-05-14 21:35 < Mahlzahn> yes, m:
2008-05-14 21:35 * DrSkullthumper might be stupid
2008-05-14 21:35 < Fire> hmm
2008-05-14 21:36 < mattbuck> http://mattbuck.irongalaxy.com/temp/geography.gif http://mattbuck.irongalaxy.com/temp/mattus.gif
2008-05-14 21:37 < Messedrocker> i don't get the second one
2008-05-14 21:38 < mattbuck> it was what some friends thought my view of america was
2008-05-14 21:38 < Messedrocker> they thought you thought 80% of america was west virginia?
2008-05-14 21:39 < quanticle> mattbuck: Well, the second map is inaccurate because it includes California as part of hickville.
2008-05-14 21:39 < quanticle> mattbuck: Where, to be quite straightforward, California should either be classifed as Mexico, or part of "revolutionary scum".
2008-05-14 21:40 < bumm13> ?
2008-05-14 21:43 < Messedrocker> what does "WV" mean on the map?
2008-05-14 21:43 < Messedrocker> west virginia?
2008-05-14 21:44 < mattbuck> yes
2008-05-14 21:45 * bumm13 still has his teeth
2008-05-14 21:45 < Messedrocker> bumm13, dentistry has come a long way since 1853
2008-05-14 21:46 < bumm13> \o/
2008-05-14 21:46 < mattbuck> anyway, i'm about to fall asleep, so goodnight
2008-05-14 21:46 < chzz> There was a nice one during the last elections. I won't post the link, but a 'bent over lady' - labelled bush (ok), 'gore' in the gory middle bit...and Buchannan for the bum-hole
2008-05-14 21:46 < bumm13> nite
2008-05-14 21:49 * FastLizard4 looks at bumm13
2008-05-14 21:54 * FastLizard4 lulz at his computers process manager
2008-05-14 21:55 < FastLizard4> 95 open processes, 1% RAM free, average CPU usage 30%
2008-05-14 21:56 < Messedrocker> that's not good
2008-05-14 21:56 < FastLizard4> Ahh, CPU usage down to 10% and 47MB (9%) RAM free
2008-05-14 21:56 < FastLizard4> 95 open processes still
2008-05-14 21:57 < gwern> that little ram, you'll start thrashing
2008-05-14 21:57 < FastLizard4> Commit charge: 82.10%
2008-05-14 21:57 < FastLizard4> 2001 PC, 512 MB of RAM
2008-05-14 22:01 * TheWeasel watches Anderson Cooper
2008-05-14 22:02 * Lucifer_Cat watches TheWeasel
2008-05-14 22:02 < Messedrocker> http://youtube.com/watch?v=zzSVRWt3FDw&feature=related
2008-05-14 22:02 < TheWeasel> Anderson Cooper is meta-watched by Lucifer_Cat.
2008-05-14 22:03 < Lucifer_Cat> if im watching you from under the tv, i cant watch coop
2008-05-14 22:03 * FastLizard4 mutters something else about SQL databases and apostrophes
2008-05-14 22:03 < TheWeasel> What are you doing underneath my TV anyway?
2008-05-14 22:03 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-05-14 22:04 < Messedrocker> CHIRANJEEVI FTW!
2008-05-14 22:06 * TheWeasel wonders whether Edwards will be VP candidate again now
2008-05-14 22:10 < quanticle> Meh. I've got 155 processes running...
2008-05-14 22:10 < Working_Cat> Messedrocker: chiranjeevi... wtf
2008-05-14 22:10 < quanticle> Of course, I've got a Linux box, so processes aren't nearly as heavy as on Windows.
2008-05-14 22:10 < chzz> I've got 155 processed peas boiling.
2008-05-14 22:10 < quanticle> Working_Cat: What are you doing at work this late?
2008-05-14 22:10 * Working_Cat mehs at quanticle
2008-05-14 22:11 < chzz> No, of course. Windows is pants, linux will fix global warming, la la la...
2008-05-14 22:11 < Lucifer_Cat> no, somehow i got disconnected while i wasnt looking...
2008-05-14 22:11 < Lucifer_Cat> and it reconnected
2008-05-14 22:11 < Messedrocker> ok
2008-05-14 22:11 < Krimpet> I just installed IE on ubuntu. oh lord D:
2008-05-14 22:11 < Lucifer_Cat> and just now, it automatically renamed it
2008-05-14 22:11 < Messedrocker> so an online PDF viewer i was testing out crashed my browser
2008-05-14 22:11 < Lucifer_Cat> Krimpet: shame
2008-05-14 22:11 < Messedrocker> LOOKS LIKE I WON'T BE USING IT
2008-05-14 22:11 < FastLizard4> quanticle: Also, Linux processes can "sleep"
2008-05-14 22:11 < Lucifer_Cat> Messedrocker: watched the thriller vid?
2008-05-14 22:11 < FastLizard4> Windows processes cannot
2008-05-14 22:12 < Messedrocker> Lucifer_Cat, Indian Thriller AND the other one!
2008-05-14 22:12 < Lucifer_Cat> FastLizard4: much like working_cat and grad_cat
2008-05-14 22:12 < Krimpet> for this paper I'm writing I needed a windows-only plugin to read a library article <_<
2008-05-14 22:12 < Lucifer_Cat> other one?
2008-05-14 22:12 < Messedrocker> Lucifer_Cat, I don't know if it has a name but it's the one I just linked to
2008-05-14 22:12 < Lucifer_Cat> i think i disconned at that time
2008-05-14 22:13 < chzz> Messedrocker: please don't SHOUT
2008-05-14 22:13 < Lucifer_Cat> again please :)
2008-05-14 22:13 < quanticle> FastLizard4: That too.
2008-05-14 22:13 < Messedrocker> http://youtube.com/watch?v=zzSVRWt3FDw&feature=related
2008-05-14 22:13 < Krimpet> Your User Agent is: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98)
2008-05-14 22:13 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Whoa. Your ass-kicking on the Pearl Harbor map was... thorough.
2008-05-14 22:13 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: he won?
2008-05-14 22:14 < Messedrocker> quanticle, reading through the event history?
2008-05-14 22:14 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Quite easily in the end.
2008-05-14 22:14 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Yeah. I always read the game logs.
2008-05-14 22:14 < Lucifer_Cat> thank god, i have no idea what that bugger is singing
2008-05-14 22:14 < Krimpet> what game are you folks always playing, anyway?
2008-05-14 22:14 < Messedrocker> Lucifer_Cat, because you're Hindu
2008-05-14 22:15 < Lucifer_Cat> Messedrocker: he is Hindu too
2008-05-14 22:15 * FastLizard4 needs a MediaWiki extension to install
2008-05-14 22:15 < Lucifer_Cat> \quanticle: as thorough as my asskicking in... middle east, soviet russia, greece, senate, merchants and omaha beach?
2008-05-14 22:15 < quanticle> Krimpet: http://www.conquerclub.com
2008-05-14 22:15 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: The same.
2008-05-14 22:15 < Lucifer_Cat> XD
2008-05-14 22:15 < Krimpet> mmm, I could go for a club sandwich now. :)
2008-05-14 22:16 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: A bit more thorough than your ass kicking in Senate.
2008-05-14 22:16 * quanticle should really learn to conserve cards
2008-05-14 22:16 < Lucifer_Cat> i wiped you both out in a single rounds.
2008-05-14 22:16 < Lucifer_Cat> round*
2008-05-14 22:16 < Messedrocker> yeah
2008-05-14 22:16 < Messedrocker> if Lucifer Cat had been playing with us on Pearl Harbor he most likely would have won
2008-05-14 22:17 < Gracenotes> CONQUERCLUB IS LINKSPAM
2008-05-14 22:17 < quanticle> Gracenotes: Heh.
2008-05-14 22:18 < quanticle> Messedrocker: I don't think so. You basically destroyed FastLizard4, even thought he had a formidable force in the center.
2008-05-14 22:18 < quanticle> Messedrocker: I knew I would lose to you once I saw that you'd eliminated the Lizard's central base.
2008-05-14 22:18 < Messedrocker> quanticle, i was able to do that by building multiple monopolies that no one seemed to be willing to stop
2008-05-14 22:18 < Messedrocker> quanticle, i consider that to be the turning point
2008-05-14 22:18 < Messedrocker> and my decision to raid Ford Island was actually at the last second
2008-05-14 22:18 < Messedrocker> i ditched my previous plan to go after Ford's Island
2008-05-14 22:18 < Messedrocker> because i could
2008-05-14 22:19 < Messedrocker> i had more armies than he
2008-05-14 22:19 < Messedrocker> rather, i ditched the previous plan and instead went after Ford's Island
2008-05-14 22:19 < Messedrocker> and once i destroyed his cache, I knew things were changed forever
2008-05-14 22:19 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Heh. That's one of the disadvantages of having most of your units concentrated in the corner. Its easy to build up a local monopoly, but very difficult to prevent others from doing so in their corners of the map. Of course, my battle with The359 didn't help too much either.
2008-05-14 22:20 < Messedrocker> quanticle, in my penultimate turn, i made a logistics error and accidentally left The359 with one army
2008-05-14 22:20 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Yeah. If I'd held onto my cards, I might have been able to take some of the ship clusters, and build up monopolies that way, but I cashed in my cards too early.
2008-05-14 22:20 < Messedrocker> so i came onto IRC and told him to get his turn out of the way
2008-05-14 22:21 * quanticle learned another lesson in this game: Don't cash in cards right away.
2008-05-14 22:21 < Messedrocker> you kind of have to
2008-05-14 22:21 < Messedrocker> the game won't let you not cash in cards
2008-05-14 22:21 < Messedrocker> and cashing in cards right away is what i do. then again i have only won twice
2008-05-14 22:21 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Well, the game only forces you cash in if you've got five cards. I always cashed in at the first opportunity, rather than waiting until I was forced to.
2008-05-14 22:22 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Because we play "escalating" games, its in our interest to wait as long as possible, since each subsequent cash-in is worth more armies.
2008-05-14 22:22 < gwern> what a complex risk variant
2008-05-14 22:23 < quanticle> Anyway, Messedrocker, Lucifer_Cat, The359, FastLizard4, are you all up for another game?
2008-05-14 22:23 < FastLizard4> quanticle: sure
2008-05-14 22:23 < Messedrocker> i am not
2008-05-14 22:24 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: if you had to learn one thing from middle east, it is that even if you are painted into a corner, the key is in keeping islands alive at other places.
2008-05-14 22:24 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Yeah. I've learnt that lesson as well.
2008-05-14 22:24 < Lucifer_Cat> i held on to my bases in luxor cyprus and iran
2008-05-14 22:24 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Up for a game?
2008-05-14 22:25 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: no. assembling a table. and i just found that i screwed in the wrong panel
2008-05-14 22:25 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: The issue with that is that, all too often its difficult to keep up those bases at the beginning of the game since you're always resource starved in the beginning.
2008-05-14 22:25 < FastLizard4> quanticle: nvm, not avail
2008-05-14 22:25 < quanticle> FastLizard4: Its ok, no one else is available either.
2008-05-14 22:26 < bumm13> hmm, the local weather is going from low 60s °F to low/mid 90s this week :x
2008-05-14 22:26 < Cyrius> could be worse
2008-05-14 22:27 < bumm13> well, this isn't California or Texas :P
2008-05-14 22:27 < Cyrius> texas has got tornadoes tonight
2008-05-14 22:27 < bumm13> wonderful :x
2008-05-14 22:27 < bumm13> tornadoes are rare here in Washington
2008-05-14 22:28 < bumm13> (and not that dangerous)
2008-05-14 22:28 < Cyrius> actually had a tornado warning nearby earlier
2008-05-14 22:28 < bumm13> the area around Vancouver, Wash. occasionally gets whirlwind-ish stuff ;)
2008-05-14 22:28 < Messedrocker> what would be a good design for a website?
2008-05-14 22:28 < bumm13> (or waterspouts)
2008-05-14 22:29 < Cyrius> we don't usually get tornadoes down here on the coast
2008-05-14 22:29 < quanticle> "IN CARTOONS there is often a moment when a hapless character, having galloped over a cliff, is still unaware of the fact and hangs suspended in the air, legs pumping wildly, until realisation dawns, gravity intervenes and downfall ensues. Hillary Clinton's campaign looks a bit like that this week."
2008-05-14 22:29 < bumm13> heh
2008-05-14 22:29 < quanticle> I <3 the Economist.
2008-05-14 22:29 * Gracenotes sends kittens to attack #wikipedia in surrogate
2008-05-14 22:30 < Cyrius> awww, kittens
2008-05-14 22:30 * bumm13 watched 8 cartoon shorts yesterday
2008-05-14 22:30 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: theres a trick to it... but you'll start beating me if i told you :P
2008-05-14 22:30 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: rofl at the cartoon analogy
2008-05-14 22:31 < bumm13> (all of the [[Gabby (cartoon)]] shorts ever made)
2008-05-14 22:31 < bumm13> (hmm, there's a ninth one I haven't seen....)
2008-05-14 22:31 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: lets play teams this weekend
2008-05-14 22:33 < quanticle> Lucifer_CAt: Sounds good.
2008-05-14 22:34 < Mike2> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nereis.gif
2008-05-14 22:34 < yao_ziyua1> we really need a p2p network to redistribute wikipedia among chinese readers
2008-05-14 22:35 < quanticle> "The other point of the primary system is to see what somebody is like under pressure, and to measure their presidential character. Mrs Clinton, for instance, has stood out, thus far at least, by her refusal to quit; Mr McCain by his refusal to compromise on either Iraq or free trade. Mr Obama is a less feisty sort, but he has exhibited enormous grace under pressure."
2008-05-14 22:35 < yao_ziyua1> but such a network's client software already equals a proxy program
2008-05-14 22:36 < Messedrocker> yao_ziyua1, I thought Wikipedia was unblocked
2008-05-14 22:36 < yao_ziyua1> Messedrocker: for en
2008-05-14 22:36 < bbot> bumm13: Yeah, man, fight the power!
2008-05-14 22:36 < bumm13> hmm?
2008-05-14 22:36 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: Hmmm. Most likely any such traffic will be seen by the Great Firewall, and will generate notifications. After all, China doesn't have any sort of anonymous Internet access - you have to show ID at Internet cafes.
2008-05-14 22:37 < chzz> yao_ziyua1: there's plenty of ways around the firewall; that's not the problem. The problem is investigation of same. For example, when I was last in China and had a PC in my hotel, it took me <1 minute to get around it. But then, I was only there a few days, and didn't have to worry about the police coming knocking
2008-05-14 22:37 < quanticle> Hmmm. It looks like the Economist has finally come out and explicitly endorsed Obama.
2008-05-14 22:37 < bumm13> the Great Firewall - great example of U.S. capitalism undermining human rights abroad
2008-05-14 22:38 < quanticle> bumm13: Thank you Cisco and Juniper.
2008-05-14 22:38 < bumm13> yeah :P
2008-05-14 22:38 < yao_ziyua1> juniper was founded by a chinese
2008-05-14 22:38 < yao_ziyua1> this chinese is the son of a high official of the Party and studied in america and started up juniper there
2008-05-14 22:39 < yao_ziyua1> his product: NETSCREEN
2008-05-14 22:39 < Gracenotes> bumm13: capitalism always undermines human rights abroad
2008-05-14 22:39 < yao_ziyua1> sounds like filtering software, right?
2008-05-14 22:39 < Gracenotes> undermining human rights abroad is capitalism's lifeblood
2008-05-14 22:39 < quanticle> "INDIAN bicycles carry some extraordinary loads—bulging bags of rice, heavy sacks of coal, tottering stacks of newspapers. But the humble bike has also now earned notoriety in India as a terrorist’s packhorse. "
2008-05-14 22:39 < bumm13> ...
2008-05-14 22:39 < quanticle> Gracenotes: False. Capitalism and human rights are not opposed. They are orthogonal.
2008-05-14 22:39 < quanticle> bumm13: Its about the Jaipur bombings.
2008-05-14 22:40 < Messedrocker> the best kind of capitalism is small scale capitalism
2008-05-14 22:40 < Lucifer_Cat> dont ask. i used to hang all the groceries on the handebars and pedal 4 miles back home
2008-05-14 22:40 < Messedrocker> for example, i frequently purchase food from a local restaurant
2008-05-14 22:40 < Gracenotes> quanticle: maybe in core nations
2008-05-14 22:40 < Lucifer_Cat> (ok... 2 miles)
2008-05-14 22:40 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Right, but without extensive government intervention, there's no way to keep small scale capitalism from becoming large scale capitalism.
2008-05-14 22:40 < Messedrocker> exactly quanticle
2008-05-14 22:40 < bumm13> that's not really capitalism so much as free market economy
2008-05-14 22:40 < Messedrocker> i have no problem with large scale capitalism either
2008-05-14 22:40 < Messedrocker> but in any case, the government needs the ability to squeeze balls
2008-05-14 22:41 < yao_ziyua1> i'm still obsessed by that idea: put a few sample wikipedia pages and a proxy program in a (encrypted) zip archive, and redistribute this zip file
2008-05-14 22:41 < Krimpet> the ability to squeeze balls is quite useful.
2008-05-14 22:41 < Messedrocker> yao_ziyua1, how do you distribute the password?
2008-05-14 22:41 < Messedrocker> in a riddle that will evade the government?
2008-05-14 22:41 < yao_ziyua1> Messedrocker: the password is part of the zip filename
2008-05-14 22:41 < yao_ziyua1> Messedrocker: or it can be in an unencrypted text file in that zip file
2008-05-14 22:41 < bumm13> heh
2008-05-14 22:41 < quanticle> Gracenotes: No. Everywhere. For example, in China, capitalism has fostered greater openness (as compared to the '70s and '80s China is definitely more open). However, I'd argue that the ability of business to foster even more openness in China is limited, since the interests of business are mainly property rights.
2008-05-14 22:42 < yao_ziyua1> Messedrocker: riddle also possible
2008-05-14 22:42 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: Putting the password in the filename is hardly secure.
2008-05-14 22:42 < yao_ziyua1> en
2008-05-14 22:42 < bumm13> most Chinese won't benefit much from its centrally-controlled capitalism
2008-05-14 22:42 < yao_ziyua1> at least it should be in the zip
2008-05-14 22:42 < Gracenotes> quanticle: yes, and China could be considered a core nation by now.
2008-05-14 22:42 < yao_ziyua1> bumm13: china's is not capitalism
2008-05-14 22:42 < quanticle> Gracenotes: By that logic, the only nations that are not core are the ones that don't have a modern economy to speak of.
2008-05-14 22:42 < bumm13> (doesn't help that the place is filthy dirty ;p )
2008-05-14 22:42 < yao_ziyua1> bumm13: it's powerism
2008-05-14 22:43 < bumm13> hiya Mark_Ryan
2008-05-14 22:43 < quanticle> Gracenotes: And, in that case, talk of capitalism vs. noncapitalism is irrelevant. Even communism requires industrialization.
2008-05-14 22:43 < yao_ziyua1> bumm13: power first, capital second
2008-05-14 22:43 < Messedrocker> quanticle: effective communism, anyway
2008-05-14 22:43 < Fire> Hi Mark!
2008-05-14 22:43 < yao_ziyua1> bumm13: as Mao famously said, "power from the gun!"
2008-05-14 22:43 < Messedrocker> quanticle, communism also requires support by the involved people, otherwise you have to repress them and try dealing with people who want to rebel
2008-05-14 22:44 < Gracenotes> quanticle: nearly all nations have a modern economy in one way (exploiting) or another (exploited, national currency useless - money concentrated in foreign banks, privitized national resources owned by former nations, etc.).
2008-05-14 22:44 < Mark_Ryan> hi bumm13 :)
2008-05-14 22:44 < Gracenotes> former nations referring to the first group
2008-05-14 22:44 < Fire> :(
2008-05-14 22:44 < quanticle> Messedrocker: No. Communism, as defined by Marx, requires an industrialized society. Remember, Marx said that the capitalist system was only an intermediate step that would facilitate the industrialization necessary to create the burgeoisie and proletariat classes.
2008-05-14 22:45 < yao_ziyua1> china's problem is also based on its economy model
2008-05-14 22:45 < Messedrocker> quanticle, is my bit about support of the people still valid?
2008-05-14 22:45 < quanticle> Gracenotes: What are you talking about? Trading, by definition, is voluntary. If I'
2008-05-14 22:45 < quanticle> m trading, then I'm not exploiting.
2008-05-14 22:45 < yao_ziyua1> its "world factory" economy model is essentially poor for the public
2008-05-14 22:46 < Fire> Mark: :-(
2008-05-14 22:46 < yao_ziyua1> too little profit
2008-05-14 22:46 < yao_ziyua1> too big a population
2008-05-14 22:46 < Gracenotes> it would depend what you're trading, no? If you're a farmer whose means of livelihood is to sell cash crops you can't eat, you'd have to buy from core nations to feed your family
2008-05-14 22:46 < bumm13> Fire - are you *the* Fire?
2008-05-14 22:46 < Gracenotes> you can't eat coffee.
2008-05-14 22:46 < Messedrocker> Gracenotes, nor cotton
2008-05-14 22:46 < Fire> Yes, I am *the* Fire.
2008-05-14 22:46 < Gracenotes> you can eat grains - but guess who's selling those?
2008-05-14 22:46 < bumm13> \o/
2008-05-14 22:46 < bumm13> long time no see :-)
2008-05-14 22:46 < Fire> :-) Yep.
2008-05-14 22:47 < Fire> Back from my wikibreak.
2008-05-14 22:47 < Messedrocker> who is THE FIRE?
2008-05-14 22:47 < quanticle> Gracenotes: Well, you do have the option of growing food crops. After all, no one's forcing you to grow cash crops. You're growing cash crops because you'll get more resources in exchange for them than you can make on your own.
2008-05-14 22:47 < bumm13> Messedrocker: before your time ;p
2008-05-14 22:47 < Messedrocker> when did Fire disappear?
2008-05-14 22:47 < Fire> 2005
2008-05-14 22:47 < Messedrocker> 2005 was my time
2008-05-14 22:47 < quanticle> Gracenotes: Arguably, the developing world isn't growing enough cash crops, due to American and European farm subsidies.
2008-05-14 22:47 < Messedrocker> however i was not terribly active or aware of my surroundings
2008-05-14 22:47 < Fire> Beginning... Maybe end 2004.
2008-05-14 22:48 * yao_ziyua1 envies india's economic model
2008-05-14 22:48 < Gracenotes> quanticle: or working in a factory, perhaps
2008-05-14 22:48 < Fire> bumm13, I remember your name btw, :-)
2008-05-14 22:48 * yao_ziyua1 also envies the pilippines' economic model
2008-05-14 22:48 < bumm13> I'm still in this channel! :x
2008-05-14 22:48 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: You mean the one that's exactly like China's but has a hell of a lot more bureaucracy and bribery?
2008-05-14 22:48 < Messedrocker> yao_ziyua1, everything better than the chinese?
2008-05-14 22:48 < quanticle> India's business climate is hardly ideal.
2008-05-14 22:48 < Fire> bumm13, nice to see you.
2008-05-14 22:48 < yao_ziyua1> quanticle: india's model is more profittable
2008-05-14 22:48 < bumm13> :)
2008-05-14 22:48 < Gracenotes> subsistence farming is always an option, but it is becoming increasingly obsolete. In Africa, interestingly, most national infrastructure was built during the time of imperialism, and has as its goal getting useful resources out of the country.
2008-05-14 22:49 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: Don't confuse margins with profits.
2008-05-14 22:49 < yao_ziyua1> quanticle: and it builds a good middle class
2008-05-14 22:49 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: China has a larger proportion of its population in the middle class than India.
2008-05-14 22:49 * yao_ziyua1 wants more
2008-05-14 22:49 < quanticle> Gracenotes: That's right, but, arguably, the Africans have frittered away a half century because of poor leadership.
2008-05-14 22:50 < bumm13> it's been rough in most of Africa
2008-05-14 22:50 < Gracenotes> none of which we put in power, of course :)
2008-05-14 22:50 < yao_ziyua1> china's middle class... i suspect its quality
2008-05-14 22:50 < yao_ziyua1> if you count urban, employed population as middle class,
2008-05-14 22:50 < quanticle> Gracenotes: India gained independence at around the same time as many African nations, yet India is much farther along today towards having a developed economy and government than Africa.
2008-05-14 22:51 < yao_ziyua1> they're not rich
2008-05-14 22:51 < quanticle> Gracenotes: Heh.
2008-05-14 22:51 < quanticle> Gracenotes: I concede that point...
2008-05-14 22:51 < yao_ziyua1> they're dependent on the Party's revenue
2008-05-14 22:51 < yao_ziyua1> china's biggest revenue comes from the Party's "world factory"
2008-05-14 22:52 < yao_ziyua1> and the Party holds most of it from flowing to the people
2008-05-14 22:52 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: So? India has a proportionate number of people in government employ. In fact, according to the Economist, India has the largest civil service in the world, larger than even China's.
2008-05-14 22:52 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: There are plenty of people dependent on government revenue in India as well.
2008-05-14 22:53 < Gracenotes> quanticle: conditions throughout India are nonetheless very squalid, e.g. city outskirts, but it certainly is developed in some ways. Much productivity is being exported, tho...
2008-05-14 22:53 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: Again, you're confusing margin with profits. China may not make as much profit on each individual widget, but it makes so many more goods and services than India, its overall profits are far higher.
2008-05-14 22:54 < quanticle> Gracenotes: Well, the same could be said of pretty much any emerging economy.
2008-05-14 22:54 < Lucifer_Cat> Gracenotes: depends what city you consider. that is certainly true with metros.
2008-05-14 22:54 < Lucifer_Cat> also, conditions are squalid in patches.
2008-05-14 22:54 * quanticle wonders where Fennec is
2008-05-14 22:55 < Lucifer_Cat> oh, and your definition of squalid would be totally different from mine
2008-05-14 22:55 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: want stats?
2008-05-14 22:56 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Yeah. I'm curious as to whether I've overtaken gwern.
2008-05-14 22:56 < quanticle> "But according to Wilson John, a senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, an Indian think-tank, these names are no longer useful. India now has “a cocktail of terrorist groups, without any tag,” he says. They may be inspired by ideologues in Pakistan or Bangladesh, but the terrorists themselves are most likely to be Indian, he says."
2008-05-14 22:56 < Mahlzahn> IMO, the biggest difference between the Indian and Chinese economies is that China is export-driven, while virtually all Indian output is absorbed by the Indians themselves.
2008-05-14 22:56 < yao_ziyua1> quanticle: i am talking about individual profit
2008-05-14 22:57 < yao_ziyua1> quanticle: india is different; india is a democracy
2008-05-14 22:57 < Lucifer_Cat> yao_ziyua1: just barely so.
2008-05-14 22:57 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: Ah. Well, I can't speak to that, since China's official economic numbers are widely acknowledged to be completely bogus.
2008-05-14 22:58 < quanticle> yao_ziyua1: Especially their numbers on urban employment and inflation.
2008-05-14 22:58 < Mahlzahn> the notion that China has a bigger middle class is not quite correct. It has a bigger middle class numbers-wise, but middle class in China is still damn "low middle"
2008-05-14 22:58 < yao_ziyua1> china's urban population depends on the Party to pay them
2008-05-14 22:58 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: The same could be argued for India, though.
2008-05-14 22:58 < Lucifer_Cat> heh
2008-05-14 22:58 < Mahlzahn> nooo.
2008-05-14 22:59 < yao_ziyua1> which reinforces the Party's ruling
2008-05-14 22:59 < Mahlzahn> Its wild and wooly, but its freakin rich.
2008-05-14 22:59 < yao_ziyua1> *rule
2008-05-14 22:59 < Lucifer_Cat> prolly one drunken sleepy night, i set it to buzz me when someone says india....
2008-05-14 22:59 < yao_ziyua1> while india's government employees depending on the indian government to pay them... this only reinforces india's democracy
2008-05-14 22:59 < Lucifer_Cat> and its been pinging me off the hook as i assemble that table
2008-05-14 22:59 < Mahlzahn> comparatively naturally to the rest of the economy.
2008-05-14 22:59 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: Many "middle class" people in India are only "middle class" because of the boom in credit cards, and other new means of getting credit that have just been introduced since the end of banking regulations in the '90s.
2008-05-14 23:00 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: When the correction comes, it isn't going to be pretty.
2008-05-14 23:00 < Mahlzahn> that is true
2008-05-14 23:00 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: no.... iirc, people in india still use less CC
2008-05-14 23:00 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: I don't know about that. At least in my relatives' area, CC use has boomed.
2008-05-14 23:00 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: doesn't matter. still living on credit
2008-05-14 23:00 < Lucifer_Cat> true... people DO buy stuff on EMI, but still not as much.
2008-05-14 23:01 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: its not "living" on credit. just enjoying stuff like electronics on credit.
2008-05-14 23:01 < quanticle> Hah. Speaking of emerging economies - "According to a recent survey, a majority of Russians believes that acquiring wealth requires criminal activity and political connections. Only 20% believe that talent matters."
2008-05-14 23:01 < bumm13> the U.S. kind of lives on credit, overall :P
2008-05-14 23:02 < bumm13> quanticle: consider that it's Russia ;p
2008-05-14 23:02 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: i havent been there in 2 years, but i can imagine, younger earners buying on credit.
2008-05-14 23:02 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: heh, 10 years ago, people would have said the same in india
2008-05-14 23:02 < quanticle> bumm13: The source, if you're interested: http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/tsyvinski1
2008-05-14 23:02 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: the credit boom, and share market.
2008-05-14 23:03 < Lucifer_Cat> indian cos pay meaty dividends.... so holding on to stocks is always good.
2008-05-14 23:03 < quanticle> Another juicy quote from the same article: "According to a recent large survey by the European Bank of Reconstruction and Development, only 36% of Russians support democracy and a mere 28% support market reform, by far the lowest among all transition countries on both counts."
2008-05-14 23:03 < Lucifer_Cat> and i know that, cuz thats how my dad pays for my, er, lifestyle.
2008-05-14 23:04 < Sky2042> quanticle: I find it sad Russia is considered a transition country, after two decades... >.>
2008-05-14 23:04 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Lifestyle?
2008-05-14 23:04 < quanticle> Sky2042: Really? India has been a "transition country" for nigh on 5 decades now. Of course, Russia was industrialized at one point and then regressed.
2008-05-14 23:05 < Sky2042> quanticle: I wouldn't say it regressed, but that's a non-issue.
2008-05-14 23:05 < quanticle> And by "regressed", I mean, "failed to keep up".
2008-05-14 23:05 < Sky2042> And I didn't know that about India :o
2008-05-14 23:05 < quanticle> Sky2042: Well, India certainly has improved. You should compare India today with the India of 1945.
2008-05-14 23:05 < quanticle> Er, 1949, rather...
2008-05-14 23:05 < Sky2042> quanticle: there was no india of 1945. -_-
2008-05-14 23:06 < Mahlzahn> "British India" then
2008-05-14 23:06 < bumm13> the U.S. got home video games in 1972!
2008-05-14 23:06 < Sky2042> quanticle: I blame the idiots way back in the early 1900s who didn't set up proper infrastructures for their countries :/
2008-05-14 23:06 < bumm13> we've improved!
2008-05-14 23:06 < quanticle> Sky2042: Which is why I corrected myself :)
2008-05-14 23:06 < Sky2042> or the idiots in the 1950s who forgot that there's this thing called upkeep.
2008-05-14 23:07 < quanticle> Sky2042: Well, a large part also was the hasty privatization of the Russian economy after the fall of communism.
2008-05-14 23:07 < Sky2042> quanticle: it was already half privatized by the end of the 80s :/
2008-05-14 23:07 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: don't forget to calculate inflation into those "meaty dividends"
2008-05-14 23:07 < quanticle> Sky2042: If you recall, both Russia and Poland threw off the shackles of Communism at about the same time, yet Poland today is rather properous, while Russia is still basically just getting off the starting blocks.
2008-05-14 23:08 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: growth == inflation
2008-05-14 23:08 < quanticle> "The other major barrier to growth is corruption. In another World Bank-EBRD survey, 40% of firms in Russia reported making frequent unofficial payments, and roughly the same percentage indicated that corruption is a serious problem in doing business." <-- I wonder what the numbers are for India and China
2008-05-14 23:08 < Messedrocker> quanticle, blame Russian organized crime?
2008-05-14 23:08 < Mahlzahn> quanticle: Russia is not in the EU
2008-05-14 23:08 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: And the fact that Poland is in the EU shows how much farther and how much faster it has improved.
2008-05-14 23:09 < Mahlzahn> with EU money
2008-05-14 23:09 < Sky2042> Messedrocker: it's worse than that; it's an economy essentially propped up by oil, but without proper infrastructure (due to age) to produce large quantities.
2008-05-14 23:09 < Mahlzahn> quanticle: like Ireland
2008-05-14 23:09 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: Well, Russia has its natural resource wealth.
2008-05-14 23:09 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: Poland is just a flat agricultural plain.
2008-05-14 23:09 < Messedrocker> Sky2042, so they based their economy off of the little oil they produce
2008-05-14 23:09 < Sky2042> Messedrocker: Unfortunately.
2008-05-14 23:09 < Messedrocker> lame
2008-05-14 23:10 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: still, the dividends are pretty high compared to what cos here in US pay
2008-05-14 23:10 < Mahlzahn> quanticle: natural resources are no use if they are in private hands
2008-05-14 23:10 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: and i dont have numbers to prove it, just remember my dad telling me. he knows his shares.
2008-05-14 23:10 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: thats a fiction, like the inflation rate in India (5% hah!)
2008-05-14 23:11 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: Not necessarily. I mean, look at Venezuela. Its unclear whether Chavez's nationalization of the oil industry has improved anything. Also, Russia's nationalization for its natural gas industry certainly hasn't improved things for the average Russian.
2008-05-14 23:11 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: what makes you say thats a fiction...
2008-05-14 23:11 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: because realistically its more like 20%
2008-05-14 23:12 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: im talking about dividends
2008-05-14 23:12 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: No. I wouldn't say its that bad. India's economy isn't nearly as opaque as China's.
2008-05-14 23:12 < Lucifer_Cat> also, i think the 20% figure is out of the back orifice, but i wont argue with that.
2008-05-14 23:13 < Mahlzahn> yes, its really very bad. two digit growth can't be sustained with 5% inflation.
2008-05-14 23:13 < quanticle> Hmmm, perhaps I should open a bike repair shop - http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iDxEYF_xrqJ7mzFnRA7TTezMpv_QD90JIGR80
2008-05-14 23:13 < Mark_Ryan> what's with the channel topic? "Gossiping about other wikipedians behind their backs is prohibited" -- since when can we prohibit all gossip? lol
2008-05-14 23:13 < quanticle> Mark_Ryan: Well, it really ought to be "derogatory gossip", but that's too hard to define.
2008-05-14 23:14 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: unless you assign the guy who used to work in the field 0% contribution
2008-05-14 23:14 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: im sure its more than 5, but 20 is a bit too much. also, i was talking about dividends. i'd like to know why you think its a myth
2008-05-14 23:15 < Mark_Ryan> quanticle, I rather prefer my #wikipedia-en-admins formulation: "When using this channel, maintain civility and respect for all other Wikipedia users at all times."
2008-05-14 23:15 < Mahlzahn> because inflation is tied to growth. Whengrowth takes off, people have more money. If you have dividends at 30%, people are spending it!
2008-05-14 23:15 < kingturtle> rehi
2008-05-14 23:15 < Mark_Ryan> hi kingturtle :)
2008-05-14 23:15 < quanticle> Mark_Ryan: Hmmm. That's not bad.
2008-05-14 23:15 < kingturtle> how goes it
2008-05-14 23:15 < Sky2042> Mahlzahn: but if the government has the proper taxation on items, then inflation is controlled.
2008-05-14 23:16 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: dividends, iirc are over 100% in most cases. i remember 250% in lots of cases.
2008-05-14 23:16 < Mark_Ryan> kingturtle, it all seems to go well
2008-05-14 23:16 < chzz> anybody online know much about articles about japan?
2008-05-14 23:16 < Mahlzahn> erm, you can't control inflation with taxation.
2008-05-14 23:16 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: and im talking about just last year. also, dividends over original share value btw, not the trading value.
2008-05-14 23:17 < Lucifer_Cat> the topicguy
2008-05-14 23:17 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: precisely. I was being cautious with 30%
2008-05-14 23:17 < Sky2042> yes you can Mahlzahn, as the money cycles back out of the economy and into the government's hands.
2008-05-14 23:17 < Mark_Ryan> Mahlzahn, can't you? wouldn't taking disposable income away from people reduce spending, thus reducing inflation?
2008-05-14 23:17 < Sky2042> what Mark_Ryan said, also.
2008-05-14 23:17 < FastLizard4> :O
2008-05-14 23:17 < quanticle> I like Mark_Ryan's formulation better.
2008-05-14 23:17 < Sky2042> I also.
2008-05-14 23:17 < Sky2042> heh.
2008-05-14 23:17 < bumm13> meowf.
2008-05-14 23:17 < Sky2042> I didn't explain it too well, but that's basic economics :P
2008-05-14 23:18 < Lucifer_Cat> FastLizard4 is fat
2008-05-14 23:18 < quanticle> Mark_Ryan: I truncated it just a tad, so I'd be sure it'd fit.
2008-05-14 23:18 * Mark_Ryan nods
2008-05-14 23:18 < Mark_Ryan> it was only a suggestion, anyway
2008-05-14 23:18 < Mark_Ryan> it's not like I call the shots around here.
2008-05-14 23:18 < quanticle> Mark_Ryan: A good suggestion, though.
2008-05-14 23:18 < FastLizard4> Lucifer_Cat: ...
2008-05-14 23:18 < Lucifer_Cat> Mark_Ryan: yeah right
2008-05-14 23:18 < Lucifer_Cat> FastLizard4 is slow
2008-05-14 23:18 * Mark_Ryan pokes Lucifer_Cat
2008-05-14 23:18 * Lucifer_Cat got poked
2008-05-14 23:19 < Lucifer_Cat> heh, Mark_Ryan, like 99% of this chan, is younger than me
2008-05-14 23:19 < Lucifer_Cat> and most of them sound older than me :S
2008-05-14 23:19 < bumm13> Lucifer_Cat: you 30+ ?
2008-05-14 23:19 < Mark_Ryan> how old are you?
2008-05-14 23:19 < Fire> How old are you, Lucifer_Cat ?
2008-05-14 23:19 < Lucifer_Cat> Mark_Ryan: older than you :P
2008-05-14 23:19 < Mark_Ryan> I have grey hairs.
2008-05-14 23:19 < Lucifer_Cat> jeez stop asking
2008-05-14 23:19 * Sky2042 wonders how old lucifer is.
2008-05-14 23:19 < Fire> Me too.
2008-05-14 23:20 < Mahlzahn> Mark_Ryan: it doesn't matter who spends the money - the money still would be spent.
2008-05-14 23:20 < bumm13> heh
2008-05-14 23:20 < Lucifer_Cat> 23
2008-05-14 23:20 < Mark_Ryan> lol, you brought that onto yourself, Lucifer_Cat
2008-05-14 23:20 < bumm13> you a youngin'
2008-05-14 23:20 < Mark_Ryan> Mahlzahn, that assumes that the government doesn't maintain a surplus or use it to retire debt
2008-05-14 23:20 < Fire> 23? He's a kid!
2008-05-14 23:20 < bumm13> cimon is probably the oldest regular here
2008-05-14 23:20 * FastLizard4 is 14 :P
2008-05-14 23:20 < Lucifer_Cat> 9_9
2008-05-14 23:20 * Soxred93 is too
2008-05-14 23:20 < FastLizard4> 15 in 14 days
2008-05-14 23:21 < Lucifer_Cat> heh
2008-05-14 23:21 < Sky2042> Young
2008-05-14 23:21 < Fire> How sweet :)
2008-05-14 23:21 < bumm13> cimon is about 42
2008-05-14 23:21 < Mahlzahn> Mark_Ryan: yes, with that assumption.
2008-05-14 23:21 < Mark_Ryan> when you're 14 going on 15.... blah blah blah blah blah blah
2008-05-14 23:21 < Lucifer_Cat> FastLizard4: hows the pimples coming?
2008-05-14 23:21 < Lucifer_Cat> or going
2008-05-14 23:21 < Sky2042> Mark_Ryan: haha.
2008-05-14 23:21 < FastLizard4> Lucifer_Cat: Never got them
2008-05-14 23:21 < Lucifer_Cat> theres still time.
2008-05-14 23:21 * bumm13 is a fat old bumm
2008-05-14 23:22 < kingturtle> i really dislike infoboxes
2008-05-14 23:22 < Mahlzahn> you are not alone
2008-05-14 23:22 < Lucifer_Cat> bumm13: quantify both
2008-05-14 23:22 < bumm13> both what?
2008-05-14 23:22 < Lucifer_Cat> fat and old
2008-05-14 23:22 < bumm13> in here? :P
2008-05-14 23:22 < Lucifer_Cat> how fat how old.
2008-05-14 23:22 * FastLizard4 sets mode +infobox +infobox kingturtle Mahlzahn
2008-05-14 23:22 < Alkivar> any of you space geeks?
2008-05-14 23:22 < bumm13> I'm under no such obligation ;p
2008-05-14 23:23 < FastLizard4> Alkivar: Does Trekkie count? :D
2008-05-14 23:23 < Lucifer_Cat> yeah, here. else i'll ask wikitruth or whatever it is to find out :P
2008-05-14 23:23 < Alkivar> no
2008-05-14 23:23 < Sky2042> Alkivar: how geeky is a space geek?...
2008-05-14 23:23 < bumm13> wikitruth, roffle
2008-05-14 23:23 < Mark_Ryan> I can confirm that bumm13 is old.
2008-05-14 23:23 < Lucifer_Cat> FastLizard4: its +infoboxinfobox
2008-05-14 23:23 < Alkivar> i'm trying to figure out why we switched to ion thrusters and when we did for our space probes
2008-05-14 23:23 * bumm13 is a crappy sci-fi movie "space geek" :D
2008-05-14 23:23 < Warpath> yup he is 29 :D
2008-05-14 23:23 * Mark_Ryan gives bumm13 an assortment of L'Oreal products to help with that
2008-05-14 23:23 < bumm13> actually, I'm not
2008-05-14 23:23 * Warpath pats bummie :DD
2008-05-14 23:23 < FastLizard4> Lucifer_Cat: It works either way
2008-05-14 23:23 < Mahlzahn> Mark_Ryan: "old" is relative around here.
2008-05-14 23:23 < FastLizard4> Alkivar: We did because they use almost no fuel
2008-05-14 23:23 * Mahlzahn is ancient by wp standards
2008-05-14 23:23 < FastLizard4> Alkivar: We did so about a decade ago
2008-05-14 23:24 < Mark_Ryan> bumm13, good on you. it's how old you are inside that counts. ;)
2008-05-14 23:24 < Mahlzahn> a fossil
2008-05-14 23:24 < bumm13> Mark_Ryan: in that case, I'm about 55 ;p
2008-05-14 23:24 < Lucifer_Cat> Mark_Ryan: sometimes i feel a 40 inside :(
2008-05-14 23:24 < Lucifer_Cat> lol
2008-05-14 23:24 < Warpath> bumm13, needs a hip transplant :P
2008-05-14 23:24 < bumm13> I do?
2008-05-14 23:24 < bumm13> more like lyposuction ;p
2008-05-14 23:25 < Lucifer_Cat> ok drop it.
2008-05-14 23:25 < Lucifer_Cat> wheres Fennec
2008-05-14 23:25 < quanticle> Alkivar: We're using ion thrusters for our space probes? I thought those were still experimental.
2008-05-14 23:25 * Lucifer_Cat used to live right next to the Saturn V
2008-05-14 23:25 < Alkivar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_%28spacecraft%29
2008-05-14 23:26 < Alkivar> DAWN uses an ion thruster
2008-05-14 23:26 < ggreer> didn't that deep space probe use an ion thruster?
2008-05-14 23:26 < FastLizard4> Alkivar: We have been using ion thrusters for about a decade now
2008-05-14 23:26 < ggreer> I forget the name of it
2008-05-14 23:26 < bumm13> hiya ggreer
2008-05-14 23:26 < ggreer> yo
2008-05-14 23:27 < The359> Deep Space One used an ion thruster
2008-05-14 23:28 < ijustam> oh god
2008-05-14 23:28 < ijustam> i cant stop
2008-05-14 23:28 < ijustam> http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/
2008-05-14 23:30 < Mahlzahn> yes, send all those damn wp categorizers over there.
2008-05-14 23:31 < Lucifer_Cat> g-g-g-g-greer
2008-05-14 23:31 < Lucifer_Cat> sup!!
2008-05-14 23:31 < Fire> re
2008-05-14 23:33 < Mark_Ryan> yay I'm installing Internet Explorer 4
2008-05-14 23:33 < bumm13> o.o
2008-05-14 23:33 < Sky2042> Mark_Ryan: wtf?
2008-05-14 23:33 < Mark_Ryan> on windows 95
2008-05-14 23:33 < quanticle> The359: Were there any others?
2008-05-14 23:33 * Sky2042 wonders /why/
2008-05-14 23:33 < ggreer> heh
2008-05-14 23:33 < Mark_Ryan> It's nostalgia
2008-05-14 23:34 < quanticle> The359: I'm pretty sure Cassini used traditional chemical rockets.
2008-05-14 23:34 < bumm13> I can't possibly get nostalgic over Win95
2008-05-14 23:34 < Mark_Ryan> "omg computing was so simple then"
2008-05-14 23:34 < Sky2042> nostalgia over ie4... that's a scary thought.
2008-05-14 23:34 < Mark_Ryan> i don't have a choice over the IE4, it's installing automatically
2008-05-14 23:34 < Mark_Ryan> it's Windows 95C
2008-05-14 23:34 < Sky2042> looooooooooool
2008-05-14 23:35 < chzz> I remember the good old days, when WP only had 2 million articles.
2008-05-14 23:35 < Sky2042> chzz: that's the good old days?
2008-05-14 23:35 < Mark_Ryan> I remember when Wikipedia's target was 100,000 articles
2008-05-14 23:35 < Sky2042> !!!
2008-05-14 23:35 < bumm13> same here
2008-05-14 23:35 < Mark_Ryan> lol, old timers unite!
2008-05-14 23:36 < privatemusings> I remember when it was all fields around here......
2008-05-14 23:36 < Mark_Ryan> obviously, when they realised that we could have an article about every single Pokemon episode, they revised the target
2008-05-14 23:36 < Alkivar> FastLizard4: i just did some research... apparently we've been using ion thrusters on spacecraft since 1971
2008-05-14 23:36 < FastLizard4> huh
2008-05-14 23:37 < Alkivar> although most of those were in earth orbit as directional stabilization thrusters not as a propulsion system to fly interplanetary
2008-05-14 23:37 < quanticle> Sweet. I've finally obviated my need for a taskbar/start-menu interface on Linux. I've got all my most commonly used programs either slaved to keyboard shortcuts or desktop icons.
2008-05-14 23:37 < privatemusings> I just like to witness use of the verb obviate.
2008-05-14 23:37 < Alkivar> quanticle: you could have also made your "start menu" into your right click menu also :)
2008-05-14 23:38 < Sky2042> lol
2008-05-14 23:38 < quanticle> Alkivar: Already done.
2008-05-14 23:38 < Mark_Ryan> "ion drive is capable of accelerating from 0 to 60 mph (97 km/h) in 4 days." -- not exactly Full Impulse, is it?
2008-05-14 23:38 < Alkivar> nope... not yet
2008-05-14 23:38 < privatemusings> make it so! (by next tuesday please)
2008-05-14 23:38 < Mark_Ryan> that should read Dawn's ion drive
2008-05-14 23:38 < Alkivar> how fast is "full impulse" supposed to be in mph trekkies?
2008-05-14 23:39 < privatemusings> 1,437.
2008-05-14 23:39 < quanticle> Mark_Ryan: Low acceleration, but ion drive is supposed to be able to maintain acceleration for much longer than traditional chemical rockets.
2008-05-14 23:39 * privatemusings tends to make things up once in a while
2008-05-14 23:39 < bumm13> quanticle: why not just run twm if your aim is minimalism? :P
2008-05-14 23:39 < ijustam> privatemusings: obviate your lack of knowledge with dictionary.com
2008-05-14 23:39 < ijustam> swish
2008-05-14 23:39 < Mark_Ryan> Alkivar, I'm sure we have an article outlining it. lol
2008-05-14 23:39 < ijustam> or wikitionary
2008-05-14 23:39 < Sky2042> what is that, mach 2 privatemusings?
2008-05-14 23:39 < Sky2042> in air*
2008-05-14 23:39 < Alkivar> the answer gentlemen in c
2008-05-14 23:40 < Sky2042> ijustam: wiktionary*
2008-05-14 23:40 < Alkivar> full impulse is the speed of light ;)
2008-05-14 23:40 < Sky2042> the i gets me too :x