freenode #wikipedia

2008-05-14 19:05 < quanticle> Demi: Indeed. However, genetic theory at least has some hard substance underneath all the bullshit. Not so sure about memetic theory, since its foundation is psychology, which itself is quickly growing and changing as we discover more about the brain.
2008-05-14 19:05 < quanticle> Gracenotes: The terminology of memes was invented by Dawkins?
2008-05-14 19:05 < Gracenotes> afaik, yes.
2008-05-14 19:06 < Ziggy_Sawdust> The $40 bill was minted in 1910, originally depicting Rutherford B. Hayes, although a 1987 commemorative print was issued containing an image of Albert Einstein
2008-05-14 19:06 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Now did that sound reliable, or what?
2008-05-14 19:06 < quanticle> Gracenotes: Hmmm. Do you remember what the book was called. I should read it...
2008-05-14 19:06 < Gracenotes> the selfish gene, I believe
2008-05-14 19:06 < Drinisaurio> I need a CSS guru
2008-05-14 19:06 < Drinisaurio> for a simple question
2008-05-14 19:06 * Ziggy_Sawdust rents Necronomicon from his public library
2008-05-14 19:06 < Ziggy_Sawdust> okay, this should work...
2008-05-14 19:06 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Meh. Not really. No one would put Rutherford B. Hayes on currency.
2008-05-14 19:06 * Ziggy_Sawdust opens page
2008-05-14 19:07 < Demi> Though such assertions have been contentious as historical perspectives of religion clashed with modern thought frameworks such as modernism and deconstructionism, your grandmother is totally in heaven.
2008-05-14 19:07 < Ziggy_Sawdust> IA! IA! CTHULHU F'TAGN!
2008-05-14 19:07 < Ziggy_Sawdust> IA! IA! CTHULHU F'TAGN!
2008-05-14 19:07 < Gracenotes> forget about Hayes on currency. Who would put a non-political figure on currency?
2008-05-14 19:07 < Gracenotes> especially someone Jewish
2008-05-14 19:07 < Lycurgus> could there be a better example of hard vs. soft science in molecular biology versus whatever study 'meme' belongs in? (can't even think of a science it properly belongs in except sociology or anthro)
2008-05-14 19:07 < quanticle> Gracenotes: Indeed.
2008-05-14 19:07 < Gracenotes> like Einstein
2008-05-14 19:07 < quanticle> Lycurgus: It'd be a combination of psychology and sociology, I think.
2008-05-14 19:07 < Gracenotes> no matter... I'm sure they'll have a Catholic on money within 100 years
2008-05-14 19:07 < Ziggy_Sawdust> IA! IA! CTHULHU F'TAGN!
2008-05-14 19:08 < Ziggy_Sawdust> IA! IA! CTHULHU F'TAGN!
2008-05-14 19:08 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Its not wor
2008-05-14 19:08 < Ziggy_Sawdust> holy shit, it worked
2008-05-14 19:08 < Cthulhu_> CTHULHU FT'AGN NO MORE, MOTHERFUCKERS
2008-05-14 19:08 < Gracenotes> Ziggy_Sawdust: no tribal rants. you're calling up spirits from the living dead
2008-05-14 19:08 * quanticle voted for Cthulu
2008-05-14 19:08 < Demi> quanticle - only two presidents have visited my area (and i mean the geographic region in which i live, not "my area" as in my genitals). Rutherford Hayes and George W. Bush.
2008-05-14 19:08 * quanticle voted for the greater evil.
2008-05-14 19:09 < quanticle> Demi: What area are we speaking of? Texas?
2008-05-14 19:09 < Lycurgus> meme's are a social not a psychological phenomenon; obviously everything concerning thought or language has some involvement with psychology or neurobiology, however tangential
2008-05-14 19:09 < Lycurgus> semiotics is prolly the best match
2008-05-14 19:09 < Demi> quanticle - southern oregon
2008-05-14 19:09 < quanticle> Lycurgus: So, in that case, probably either sociology (for the group transmission aspects) or anthropology (for the linguistics).
2008-05-14 19:10 < quanticle> Demi: When did Bush visit southern Oregon?
2008-05-14 19:10 < Demi> quanticle - last midterms, i think
2008-05-14 19:10 < Demi> or possibly 2004
2008-05-14 19:10 < Demi> don't remember
2008-05-14 19:10 < quanticle> Demi: Really? What on earth for? You don't get a state much bluer than Oregon.
2008-05-14 19:10 < Demi> stayed in Jacksonville just like Hayes
2008-05-14 19:10 < Demi> quanticle - Oregon isn't that blue
2008-05-14 19:10 < Messedrocker> quanticle, Massachusetts
2008-05-14 19:11 < Demi> it's "light blue" and probably pinkish socially
2008-05-14 19:11 < Messedrocker> by far the most liberal state in the union
2008-05-14 19:11 < Lycurgus> nah
2008-05-14 19:11 < Lycurgus> MA
2008-05-14 19:11 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Massachusetts doesn't count, since the entire state could fit inside Edward Kennedy's beer gut.
2008-05-14 19:11 < Messedrocker> Lycurgus, I said MA
2008-05-14 19:11 < Lycurgus> oh, I thought you were saying OR
2008-05-14 19:11 < Demi> oregonians have the highest percent of "independents" of any state; they tend to elect democrats mildly (though the state legislature is republican) and vote roughly conservatively in direct democracy (e.g. passing a gay marriage ban in 2004)
2008-05-14 19:12 * Gracenotes doesn't care about Oregon very often
2008-05-14 19:12 < Demi> so clinton, obama and mccain have all visited recently
2008-05-14 19:12 < quanticle> Demi: Really? Perhaps I'm thinking of Washington state.
2008-05-14 19:12 < Demi> maybe
2008-05-14 19:12 < Demi> yeah, neither do presidential candidates. but This Year, It Sort Of Matters
2008-05-14 19:12 < Demi> that reminds me i should vote, actually
2008-05-14 19:12 < quanticle> Demi: Huh. So I guess all you rainy state folks aren't hippies.
2008-05-14 19:12 < Lycurgus> beer babies go really quick, I've lost about half of mine over the last couple of weeks
2008-05-14 19:13 < Demi> quanticle - definitely not
2008-05-14 19:13 < Messedrocker> er, Lycurgus, what is a beer baby?
2008-05-14 19:13 < quanticle> Lycurgus: Beer... babies?
2008-05-14 19:13 < Gracenotes> FAS?
2008-05-14 19:13 < Lycurgus> it's the junk in the trunk that's hard to get rid of
2008-05-14 19:13 < quanticle> Gracenotes: Epic.
2008-05-14 19:13 < Lycurgus> fortunately I don't have that
2008-05-14 19:14 < Lycurgus> beer baby: middle age guy preggers
2008-05-14 19:14 < Lycurgus> or guy preggers generally I guess
2008-05-14 19:14 < Lycurgus> man boobs optional
2008-05-14 19:15 < Demi> dammit i'm going to have to read the pamphlet
2008-05-14 19:16 < quanticle> Demi: Pamphlet?
2008-05-14 19:16 < Demi> the voter information pamphlet with, for example, the candidate statements
2008-05-14 19:17 < quanticle> Demi: Ah. Right. In this election your vote matter. I forgot about that.
2008-05-14 19:17 < Demi> well, there's all these other positions
2008-05-14 19:17 < Demi> 3 measures and like a dozen judges, state reps, etc.
2008-05-14 19:18 < quanticle> "You very likely own stolen goods. The gas in your car, the circuits in your cell phone, the diamond in your ring, the chemicals in your lipstick or shaving cream — even the plastic in your computer may be the product of theft. Americans buy huge quantities of goods every day that are literally stolen from some of the world’s poorest people. These thefts are permitted — indeed encouraged — by an archaic rule of international trade that
2008-05-14 19:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> ...?
2008-05-14 19:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> The chemicals in my lipstick and shaving cream?
2008-05-14 19:18 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: did it get truncated?
2008-05-14 19:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> I don't shave or wear lipstick
2008-05-14 19:19 < Demi> me neither
2008-05-14 19:19 < Ziggy_Sawdust> It got truncated at "international trade that "
2008-05-14 19:19 < Demi> quanticle - "international trade that ... ?"
2008-05-14 19:19 < Demi> there are two measures on the ballot that are the same
2008-05-14 19:19 < quanticle> Demi: These thefts are permitted — indeed encouraged — by an archaic rule of international trade that violates the most fundamental rule of capitalism: to protect property rights.
2008-05-14 19:19 < quanticle> http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/05/12/leif-wenar/we-all-own-stolen-goods/
2008-05-14 19:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/05/12/leif-wenar/we-all-own-stolen-goods/
2008-05-14 19:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Dammit!
2008-05-14 19:20 < Lycurgus> that makes no sense
2008-05-14 19:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> I found it on Google
2008-05-14 19:20 < Demi> apparently west africans aren't getting a lot of money for their shea butter
2008-05-14 19:20 < Lycurgus> it would if "violates" were "asserts"
2008-05-14 19:20 < Demi> the title and text of oregon measures 51 and 52 are the same
2008-05-14 19:21 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Props on finding it so quicly though.
2008-05-14 19:21 < Ziggy_Sawdust> lol
2008-05-14 19:21 < Ziggy_Sawdust> OMG, THERE ARE SADNESS
2008-05-14 19:21 < Ziggy_Sawdust> See, that's the thing
2008-05-14 19:21 < Lycurgus> property is not necessarily, but profit is
2008-05-14 19:21 < Ziggy_Sawdust> I already own stolen goods
2008-05-14 19:21 < Lycurgus> *i.e. is theft
2008-05-14 19:21 < Ziggy_Sawdust> seeing as I shoplift on a regular basis
2008-05-14 19:22 < Ziggy_Sawdust> I legitimately own very little of the things in my house
2008-05-14 19:22 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: I legitimately own very little of the media on my computer.
2008-05-14 19:23 < Lycurgus> ZS's statement perfectly illustrates how non-socialist society is inherently and fundamentally corrupt
2008-05-14 19:23 < Ziggy_Sawdust> haha
2008-05-14 19:23 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Lycurgus: what?
2008-05-14 19:23 < Ziggy_Sawdust> I has positive karma
2008-05-14 19:23 < quanticle> Lycurgus: Yeah, because if he stole in a socialist society, it wouldn't be "theft", it'd be a "crime against the state".
2008-05-14 19:23 < quanticle> :)
2008-05-14 19:23 < Lycurgus> i.e. by it's institutionalizatio of theft
2008-05-14 19:23 < Ziggy_Sawdust> :D
2008-05-14 19:23 < Demi> i propose a society based on duelling and an economy based on "Connect 4" games--winner take all
2008-05-14 19:23 < Ziggy_Sawdust> fuck
2008-05-14 19:24 < Ziggy_Sawdust> I blow at connect 4
2008-05-14 19:24 < quanticle> Demi: I heartily accept your "Connect 4" duel.
2008-05-14 19:24 < Ziggy_Sawdust> how about fighting for the economy?
2008-05-14 19:24 < quanticle> Demi: I wager 3 years of servitude, what do you wager?
2008-05-14 19:24 * Demi demands satisfaction!
2008-05-14 19:24 < Ziggy_Sawdust> How about this?
2008-05-14 19:24 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Instead of having a lawsuit
2008-05-14 19:24 < Demi> quanticle - i wager 400 quatloos on the newcomer
2008-05-14 19:24 < Ziggy_Sawdust> both litigants have a contest
2008-05-14 19:24 < chomwitt> hi, i'am admin of greek wikibooks and i wonder how can i use templates from greek wikipedia ;
2008-05-14 19:24 < Ziggy_Sawdust> They both have to agree on something
2008-05-14 19:25 < Messedrocker> chomwitt, they have to be copied over to greek wikibooks
2008-05-14 19:25 < Ziggy_Sawdust> chomwitt: can't
2008-05-14 19:25 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Better make it three contests. A person can get lucky once, but its hard for them to get lucky three times.
2008-05-14 19:25 * Lycurgus turns away from the thrall pawns
2008-05-14 19:25 < Ziggy_Sawdust> yeah
2008-05-14 19:25 < Ziggy_Sawdust> how about one litigant chooses one, the other chooses another one, ant ehy compromise on one
2008-05-14 19:25 < Ziggy_Sawdust> all three contests are performed thrice
2008-05-14 19:25 < Ziggy_Sawdust> like a Shaolin Showdown
2008-05-14 19:25 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Or the judge chooses the third.
2008-05-14 19:26 < Ziggy_Sawdust> hehe
2008-05-14 19:26 < Demi> i'm going to have to tell my wife how to vote, too
2008-05-14 19:26 < chomwitt> Messedrocker: ok, thanks . (isnt that little reduntant though? )
2008-05-14 19:26 < Ziggy_Sawdust> You know what we should do?
2008-05-14 19:26 < Ziggy_Sawdust> We should have a Vandaltrackbot
2008-05-14 19:26 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: I think we already do.
2008-05-14 19:26 < Messedrocker> it is redundant, chomwitt, however the pages on one wiki are distinct from the pages on another
2008-05-14 19:26 < Ziggy_Sawdust> That goes through the revisions of all the articles and looks for edits with summary "revert"
2008-05-14 19:27 < Ziggy_Sawdust> and correlates all the data
2008-05-14 19:27 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Correlates the data to what?
2008-05-14 19:27 < gwern> Demi: connect 4 is a solved game, with a win for the first player, isn't it?
2008-05-14 19:27 < gwern> all it'd come down to is bribing the other player to let you go first
2008-05-14 19:27 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Stuff.
2008-05-14 19:27 < gwern> at which point, it's pointless
2008-05-14 19:27 < Demi> gwern - it's like capitalism
2008-05-14 19:28 < gwern> might as well cut out the connect-4 middleman for greater efficiency
2008-05-14 19:28 < Ziggy_Sawdust> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ziggy_Sawdust
2008-05-14 19:28 < Demi> amending the constitution to guarantee crime victims a right to refuse to be interviewed by a defendant seems a little weird
2008-05-14 19:28 < quanticle> gwern: Heh. That's why I'd use Go.
2008-05-14 19:28 < Ziggy_Sawdust> ZOMG IZ MY UZER PAEG KEWL?!?!?1/1///1
2008-05-14 19:28 < gwern> Demi: WON'T YOU THINK OF THE CHILDREN?
2008-05-14 19:28 < Demi> quanticle - i propose a compromise: Othello
2008-05-14 19:28 < gwern> quanticle: that has problems too. specifically, the koreans and japanese would end up owning the world
2008-05-14 19:28 < quanticle> Demi: Othello is solved too, isn't it?
2008-05-14 19:29 < quanticle> gwern: And you mean to say that they don't already own the world? Perish the thought. :)
2008-05-14 19:29 < gwern> quanticle: they don't want the whole world; just our hal
2008-05-14 19:30 < gwern> *half
2008-05-14 19:30 < Ziggy_Sawdust> OMG
2008-05-14 19:30 < Demi> no arguments against these measures in the voter pamphlet
2008-05-14 19:30 < Ziggy_Sawdust> YOU'RE LYING
2008-05-14 19:30 < gwern> Ziggy_Sawdust: about what?
2008-05-14 19:31 < Ziggy_Sawdust> idklol
2008-05-14 19:31 * Messedrocker can't wait until his library is open again
2008-05-14 19:31 < Messedrocker> it has been closed for years due to renovations
2008-05-14 19:31 < Messedrocker> and it's almost finished
2008-05-14 19:32 < quanticle> Messedrocker: The library closest to my house closes for two years of renovations at the end of the month.
2008-05-14 19:33 < Messedrocker> anyways, once the library re-opens, this better be the best damn library ever
2008-05-14 19:33 < Gracenotes> Messedrocker: the building might be better...
2008-05-14 19:33 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Are they expanding the building?
2008-05-14 19:34 < Messedrocker> yes
2008-05-14 19:34 < Messedrocker> installing an elevator too
2008-05-14 19:34 < Messedrocker> (to be compliant with ADA i think)
2008-05-14 19:37 < Demi> what the hell, vote for "Precinct Committeeperson - Male" and "Precinct Committeeperson - Female" ?
2008-05-14 19:38 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Bigger building generally means more books.
2008-05-14 19:38 < quanticle> Gah. I think I'm netsplit.
2008-05-14 19:39 < Demi> "Oregon’s election law authorizes one or more male and one or more female PCP for each major political party for each precinct depending on its size. For every 500 registered voters in a precinct, there should be one PCP of each gender. "
2008-05-14 19:39 < quanticle> Stupid internet connection. It just decided that it wasn't going to transmit data for the last 154 seconds.
2008-05-14 19:39 < quanticle> Demi: PCP?
2008-05-14 19:40 < Demi> precinct committeeperson
2008-05-14 19:40 < quanticle> Oh.
2008-05-14 19:40 < Messedrocker> quanticle, personally I doubt that
2008-05-14 19:40 < Messedrocker> I think it means better facilities in this case
2008-05-14 19:40 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Like more computers and nice chairs for reading?
2008-05-14 19:41 < Messedrocker> maybe
2008-05-14 19:42 < quanticle> gwern, do you have time for a briefly philosophical question?
2008-05-14 19:42 < Messedrocker> i don't think they're getting more/new computers though
2008-05-14 19:42 < Messedrocker> i think they're just going to have wi-fi set up
2008-05-14 19:42 < Messedrocker> like they do now for the temporary library
2008-05-14 19:42 < ViciousGu> Sup
2008-05-14 19:42 < quanticle> Messedrocker: That's cool too.
2008-05-14 19:42 < ViciousGu> I think CadenS is having some stress issues
2008-05-14 19:42 < gwern> quanticle: only if you hew to a position affirming the existence of time
2008-05-14 19:42 < ViciousGu> The last time I contacted him he replied on his talk page "Could you please just go away. Please let me be."
2008-05-14 19:43 < ViciousGu> That's kind of uncivil, but I'm not sure if I am the right person to ask him to not phrase things like that
2008-05-14 19:43 < quanticle> gwern: What is the difference between the Creator and a demiurge.
2008-05-14 19:43 < ViciousGu> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CadenS
2008-05-14 19:43 < Ziggy_Sawdust> ...
2008-05-14 19:43 < Demi> choosing things like county clerks and assessors is always a pain
2008-05-14 19:43 < quanticle> ViciousGu: Personally, I'd follow his advice and let him be.
2008-05-14 19:43 < gwern> quanticle: in theory, or observable differences?
2008-05-14 19:44 < Ziggy_Sawdust> <!-- Do not blank this article. Violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again. -->
2008-05-14 19:44 < ViciousGu> Well, *I* would let him be
2008-05-14 19:44 < gwern> quanticle: in theory, the salient difference is that a demiurge may lack many perfections associated with the Creator/Supreme Western Deity
2008-05-14 19:44 < quanticle> gwern: In definition. I'm fairly familiar with what a God or Creator is. I'm not nearly as clear as to the definition of a demiurge.
2008-05-14 19:44 < ViciousGu> But I wonder if someone else should ask him to not use language like that
2008-05-14 19:44 < ViciousGu> Because such a request could make a situation worse
2008-05-14 19:44 < ViciousGu> Not so much the request but the way it is worded
2008-05-14 19:45 < gwern> quanticle: ie, the demiurge is a reply to the theodicy: evil and imperfection exist because everything was created by a non-omniscient, or non-omnibenevolent, or non-omniscient creator
2008-05-14 19:45 < quanticle> ViciousGu: If he's stressed and short tempered, I'm not sure that telling him he's being uncivil will help.
2008-05-14 19:45 < quanticle> gwern: And the Creator created the demiurge?
2008-05-14 19:45 * TheWeasel watches the most bizarre thing I've ever seen on TV
2008-05-14 19:45 < gwern> quanticle: presumably, or it's self-created
2008-05-14 19:45 < ViciousGu> Well, perhaps someone else could say it better or would have more credibility in his eyes
2008-05-14 19:45 < Demi> "Although it may seem too revealing and personal to some, I feel compelled to relate that I struggled with alcohol addiction for almost half of those years."
2008-05-14 19:45 < TheWeasel> (at least here)
2008-05-14 19:45 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Its German television, so its got to be pretty bizzare, I presume...
2008-05-14 19:45 < gwern> quanticle: it's not necessarily the *best* reply, since then you have issues of regresses
2008-05-14 19:45 < TheWeasel> It is.
2008-05-14 19:46 < quanticle> gwern: Well, ok. I think it was pretty good answer. It certainly helped me.
2008-05-14 19:46 < gwern> ie, if the Creator is omni-beneveolent...etc., then how could it create a demiurge it knew would itself create an imperfect worldof suffering?
2008-05-14 19:46 < TheWeasel> Esoteric indoctrination so badly done that it's impossible to me why not everyone laughs and/or cringes.
2008-05-14 19:46 < The359> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D170217977642%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1&item=170217977642
2008-05-14 19:46 < The359> For sale: Porsche 928
2008-05-14 19:46 < The359> With: Boeing Gas Turbine
2008-05-14 19:46 < TheWeasel> it's unbelievably bad.
2008-05-14 19:47 < quanticle> The359: Holy crap. Its a car with a gas turbine engine.
2008-05-14 19:48 < TheWeasel> AAH!
2008-05-14 19:48 * Mike_H faints on TheWeasel
2008-05-14 19:48 < Mike_H> you scared me!
2008-05-14 19:48 < The359> it's an usual combination of car and gas turbine
2008-05-14 19:48 < gwern> quanticle: well, as I said, it's an imperfect answer. either the demiurge is independent of the creator and self-sufficient - in which case, isn't the creator superfluous and by occam's razor eliminable? and then you might as well call the demiurge the creator, in which case all you've said is 'the existence of evil shows that God is lacking one or more perfections' - or he's created by the Creator, in which case you need to explain why the Creator would
2008-05-14 19:48 < The359> and an ugly exhaust ;)
2008-05-14 19:48 < Demi> "Having been a victim of armed robbery, I have first-hand experience of the impact crime has on a person."
2008-05-14 19:48 < TheWeasel> At least not "scarred"
2008-05-14 19:48 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: :D
2008-05-14 19:48 < Ziggy_Sawdust> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nothing&diff=next&oldid=212479552
2008-05-14 19:49 < Mike_H> The359: and I don't care what you say
2008-05-14 19:49 < Mike_H> Air Supply is fabulous
2008-05-14 19:49 < gwern> of the scarring impact... :)
2008-05-14 19:49 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: Verdict?
2008-05-14 19:49 < quanticle> gwern: Indeed. I agree that there are imperfections. The reason I asked what a demiurge was was because of this: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/05/does-the-simula.html
2008-05-14 19:49 * TheWeasel shudders
2008-05-14 19:50 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: oh stop, it is not bad!
2008-05-14 19:50 < Gracenotes> wow... more than you ever wanted to know about piercings. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox_Piercing&limit=100&namespace=0
2008-05-14 19:50 < Gracenotes> (they pierce *that*? >_>)
2008-05-14 19:50 < TheWeasel> you fainting on me is less bad than what I just saw.
2008-05-14 19:50 < gwern> quanticle: ah. in the case, it's being used in the gnostic sense
2008-05-14 19:50 < Lucifer_Cat> sup
2008-05-14 19:51 < Gracenotes> the sad thing is that we have pictures for a fair amount of them....
2008-05-14 19:51 < gwern> quanticle: ie, the true universe is different from what we perceive; we are in a universe nested within another universe nested within... up to ultimate reality / the true Creator, and within each universe, there are gods locally omnipotent
2008-05-14 19:52 < quanticle> gwern: Isn't that just a fancy way of saying, "There are turtles all the way down?"
2008-05-14 19:52 < Ziggy_Sawdust> INTERNETS = SERIOUS BUSINESS
2008-05-14 19:52 < gwern> quanticle: no. turtles all the way down implies an infinite regress
2008-05-14 19:52 < gwern> gnostics believed it was a quite finite business
2008-05-14 19:52 < Ziggy_Sawdust> All the way down to what?
2008-05-14 19:52 < Ziggy_Sawdust> ?!
2008-05-14 19:52 < quanticle> gwern: So there's a creator at the end of it all.
2008-05-14 19:53 < gwern> ie, in one faith, you only needed to remember a couple hundred passwords for when you died
2008-05-14 19:53 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Hush and listen. You might learn something.
2008-05-14 19:53 < Ziggy_Sawdust> It all? How much is "all"?
2008-05-14 19:53 < quanticle> gwern: Passwords?
2008-05-14 19:53 < gwern> quanticle: hard to say... there's something transcendtal at the bottom of the tower, certainly, but people differ, unsurprisingly
2008-05-14 19:53 < Demi> gnostics, secret knowledge
2008-05-14 19:53 * quanticle is unfamiliar with gnostic tradition
2008-05-14 19:54 < Demi> okay, i've voted
2008-05-14 19:54 < gwern> quanticle: yes, the 'true names' of the deities responsible for a particular heaven
2008-05-14 19:54 < Demi> i'm sure everyone is relieved
2008-05-14 19:54 < gwern> if you knew their name, you could pass unharmed
2008-05-14 19:54 < gwern> if you didn't, you'd get sent back to earth or destroyed or something
2008-05-14 19:54 < quanticle> gwern: Ah. So once you know all the passwords, you can go through and meet the One God in charge of it all...
2008-05-14 19:54 < gwern> basically
2008-05-14 19:54 < gwern> in one system, anyway
2008-05-14 19:55 < Lucifer_Cat> DEATH TO THE INFIDELS
2008-05-14 19:55 * quanticle thinks its rather like an old-style video game. You know, the ones that used passwords to get you between levels rather than savegames.
2008-05-14 19:55 < TheWeasel> the Infidels are whoever is not named Fidel?
2008-05-14 19:55 < Lucifer_Cat> thats one cool business model if you ask me
2008-05-14 19:55 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Castro == Allah?
2008-05-14 19:55 < gwern> other christian heresies (like the bogomils, iirc) said the key thing to escaping to ultimate reality was to become a damned soul, since the God of our level, Sammael, was perversely opposite of the realer gods
2008-05-14 19:55 < Lucifer_Cat> ThatGermanDude: yup. esp weasels.
2008-05-14 19:55 < TheWeasel> Sumpn like that.
2008-05-14 19:56 < quanticle> gwern: Did the bogomils disbelieve in Hell, then? Because, from what you're saying, it seems like their thought was that we all start in Hell (since Earth and Hell are the same) and our objective is to get to Heaven.
2008-05-14 19:57 < gwern> quanticle: so one thing to remember in discussions of simulation metaphysics is that simulations can be nested, and multiple simulations can be run side by side, so to speak
2008-05-14 19:57 * Mike_H banishes TheWeasel for typing out "sumpn."
2008-05-14 19:57 < quanticle> gwern: Heh. Its rather a bit like the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics.
2008-05-14 19:57 < gwern> quanticle: often Hell is just seen as another lie by the level's deity; there may be some sort of 'heaven', but it is not eternal or perfect
2008-05-14 19:58 < gwern> quanticle: it is a little, but there are many different consequences
2008-05-14 19:58 < gwern> quanticle: for example, here's one consequence I came up with on sl4: there are experimental methods to increase your confidence you are not in a simulation
2008-05-14 19:58 < TheWeasel> I'd answer to that, but unfortunately I'm banished.
2008-05-14 19:58 < Ziggy_Sawdust> User talk:Wfgh66
2008-05-14 19:59 < gwern> but my point would not hold for increasing confidences you are or are not in a multiverse
2008-05-14 19:59 < Ziggy_Sawdust> What the fuck.
2008-05-14 19:59 < Ziggy_Sawdust> okay
2008-05-14 19:59 < Ziggy_Sawdust> wait a sec
2008-05-14 19:59 < Ziggy_Sawdust> am I a brain in a vat?
2008-05-14 19:59 < Shammallamaman> Hello
2008-05-14 19:59 * Mike_H lets TheWeasel back in.
2008-05-14 19:59 < TheWeasel> Thanks.
2008-05-14 19:59 < Mike_H> You're welcome.
2008-05-14 20:00 < gwern> Ziggy_Sawdust: there are some interesting answers to that proposition. one answer holds that if you are a brain in a vat, it is meaningless to ask that question; because you know it is a meaningful question, you then have a way of demonstrating you are not a brain in a vat
2008-05-14 20:01 < koavf> Can someone take a look at this sortable table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_by_country
2008-05-14 20:01 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Gwern: And my perceptions of brains and vats would be flawed
2008-05-14 20:01 < koavf> I can't sort a number of the columns, one of them will only ascend and not descend.
2008-05-14 20:01 < gwern> hee hee. one of my ferrets just got stuck in the handle of my tea pot and is attacking it
2008-05-14 20:01 < koavf> Are others having the same issue?
2008-05-14 20:02 < quanticle> gwern: The fourth comment down regarding the original posting by TC is quite insightful.
2008-05-14 20:02 < gwern> Ziggy_Sawdust: no, that's not it. the idea behind Putnam's answer 'no' is that ideas of brains and vats are only sensible if you have some sort of casual connection to them, otherwise they are arbitrary strings
2008-05-14 20:02 < gwern> rif you are a brain in a vat, you can have no casual connection, and thus the propsition is meaningless
2008-05-14 20:03 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Anyway, what the hell is going on at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User talk:Wfgh66
2008-05-14 20:03 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Anyway, what the hell is going on at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Wfgh66
2008-05-14 20:03 < quanticle> "As anyone familiar with the past 400 years of productivity growth should know, simulations will be created much more efficiently by teams of "designers" who automate simulation production. That means that we are probably living in a simulation created by a machine produced by a group of designers."
2008-05-14 20:03 < gwern> ***brb
2008-05-14 20:04 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: That's a lot of userboxen.
2008-05-14 20:04 < Soxred93> Boxes!
2008-05-14 20:04 < Soxred93> Boxes!
2008-05-14 20:04 < Lucifer_Cat> who most certainly at some point worked for apple
2008-05-14 20:04 < Soxred93> Not boxne!
2008-05-14 20:04 < Soxred93> boxen!*
2008-05-14 20:04 < Ziggy_Sawdust> No.
2008-05-14 20:04 < Ziggy_Sawdust> I mean look at the history
2008-05-14 20:05 * TheWeasel geht boxen
2008-05-14 20:06 < gwern> quanticle: you can make a good simulation theodicy by pointing out that simulation runners are not omniscient and so need to run more simulations that are actually needed, and that there are more ways for a simulation to include some evil than to be all-good implies that their ensemble of simulations will be more evil than they desire
2008-05-14 20:06 < gwern> but this is making assumptions like 'simulation runners cannot compute the incomputable, but are limited like us'
2008-05-14 20:07 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Yeah. What the hell - if you look two revisions back, you see a thing that says the user was banned indefinitely.
2008-05-14 20:07 < gwern> if the runners of the simulation can compute incomputable things, this point doesn't hold - incomputability means you can be omniscient, or at least a perfectly rational agent (AIXI, etc)
2008-05-14 20:08 < quanticle> gwern: Well, there's a good argument for that though. I mean, if you look at our current theories of logic, you'll see incomputability and intractability all over the place. Perhaps that's because we're hitting the limits of our virtual machine, as it were.
2008-05-14 20:08 < Lucifer_Cat> no recursing
2008-05-14 20:09 < Ziggy_Sawdust> quanticle: More disturbing is that they keep reverting HIS revision and lock it
2008-05-14 20:09 < gwern> quanticle: right. my point about 'increasing confidence in not being in a simulation' was similar - if we assume the simulators live in a computable universe, they have maximum bounds to how much bits they can erase, for example, and so the more irreversible computations we do, the larger the universe a simulator has to exist in - and thus the less likely there is a simulator
2008-05-14 20:10 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: I don't know. Looking farther through the history, I beginning to see that this guy was victim of user page vandalism.
2008-05-14 20:10 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Yes
2008-05-14 20:10 < Ziggy_Sawdust> But how do you know we aren't running very slowly
2008-05-14 20:10 < quanticle> gwern: Irreversible computations?
2008-05-14 20:10 < Ziggy_Sawdust> quanticle: ? Why are his reversions nuked?
2008-05-14 20:11 < gwern> quanticle: yeah. you have to specify irreversible computations because any number of reversible computations can be done (in the limit) with a finite amount of entropy
2008-05-14 20:11 < Ziggy_Sawdust> How do we know we aren't very limited compared with real reality?
2008-05-14 20:12 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Ants don't know they're small
2008-05-14 20:12 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Perhaps we think reality is so detailed because we're limited in capacity as well
2008-05-14 20:12 < gwern> Ziggy_Sawdust: that wouldn't work: suppose the simulator exists in a universe that has only 100 megabytes of storage space (a small universe); we, you and I, can construct programs which will need 100 megabytes of space
2008-05-14 20:12 < Ziggy_Sawdust> and the *real* universe is more complex than we could ever possibly imagine
2008-05-14 20:12 < Ziggy_Sawdust> ...?
2008-05-14 20:12 < gwern> Ziggy_Sawdust: obviously there isn't room in the 'real' universe for both the simulation and the universe itself
2008-05-14 20:12 < Ziggy_Sawdust> yes
2008-05-14 20:13 < Ziggy_Sawdust> But that's assuming that our universe is large
2008-05-14 20:13 < Ziggy_Sawdust> that's just relative
2008-05-14 20:13 < Ziggy_Sawdust> not absolute
2008-05-14 20:13 < gwern> I don't follo
2008-05-14 20:13 < Ziggy_Sawdust> why do you think light has a finite speed?
2008-05-14 20:13 < Mm40> Is this a discussion for ##philosophy ?
2008-05-14 20:13 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Right, but our universe is expanding.
2008-05-14 20:13 < Soxred93> Addshore, your RfA is bombing :(
2008-05-14 20:13 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Okay. What if our universe was really, really tiny?
2008-05-14 20:13 < gwern> we can specify in a few bits programs which will generate many more bits. a busy beaver programa alone would do the trick
2008-05-14 20:13 < Ziggy_Sawdust> REALLY tiny?
2008-05-14 20:14 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Like, sand-grain size in comparison with the *real* universe
2008-05-14 20:14 < Ziggy_Sawdust> which wouldn't have limitations such as Planck size, etc
2008-05-14 20:14 < Messedrocker> hello class
2008-05-14 20:14 < Messedrocker> i have an inquiry
2008-05-14 20:14 < gwern> Ziggy_Sawdust: you mean in relation to the simulating universe? ie, if we had 100 megs of storage, they have a couple petabytes?
2008-05-14 20:14 < Messedrocker> ...never mind
2008-05-14 20:14 < Ziggy_Sawdust> gwern: yes
2008-05-14 20:14 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: What gwern is arguing is that it doesn't matter. As long as we keep performing irreversible computations, it won't matter, since *eventually* you'll catch up to the real thing.
2008-05-14 20:14 < Ziggy_Sawdust> WTF is irreversible computations?
2008-05-14 20:14 < Ziggy_Sawdust> yes, but out universe is limited
2008-05-14 20:15 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Actions that can't be reversed.
2008-05-14 20:15 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Computations aren't real
2008-05-14 20:15 < Ziggy_Sawdust> say I perform the action 2+2 on my calculator
2008-05-14 20:15 < gwern> for example: xor isn't a reversible computation
2008-05-14 20:15 < Ziggy_Sawdust> that doesn't CREATE 4
2008-05-14 20:15 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: If we're all living in a simulation, every action is a computation.
2008-05-14 20:15 < Messedrocker> CWii, is your name supposed to be some sort of Nintendo reference?
2008-05-14 20:15 < gwern> but 'not' is entirely reversible
2008-05-14 20:15 < Ziggy_Sawdust> it just uses my calculator's power to discover 4
2008-05-14 20:15 < CWii> Messedrocker, no.
2008-05-14 20:15 < CWii> It's an abrev to CompWhizII
2008-05-14 20:16 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Therefore, any action that increases entropy is an irreversible computation.
2008-05-14 20:16 < Messedrocker> Ah, you're Compwhiz!
2008-05-14 20:16 < Ziggy_Sawdust> So let's say I write a program... let's say Conway's game of Life
2008-05-14 20:16 < Ziggy_Sawdust> I'm not *creating* the patterns
2008-05-14 20:16 < Ziggy_Sawdust> they're simply being uncovered
2008-05-14 20:16 < Ziggy_Sawdust> by that logic, anything dictated by predictable algorithms isn't created, just discovered
2008-05-14 20:16 < Ziggy_Sawdust> i.e. everything
2008-05-14 20:16 < Leslie_S> i finally succeeded at pulling the damn fifth wheel pin :D
2008-05-14 20:17 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Are you listening to what I'm saying? If we're living in a simulator, then everything we do is computation.
2008-05-14 20:17 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Leslie_S: shh, epiphany time
2008-05-14 20:17 < Leslie_S> Ziggy_Sawdust ?
2008-05-14 20:17 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Quanticle: Computation is nothing! It doesn't exist!
2008-05-14 20:17 < gwern> Ziggy_Sawdust: if you're a platonist, I don't think anything I've said really makes sense in that framework
2008-05-14 20:17 < Leslie_S> anyway, my strength is incredibly girly, so i had a lot of issues with it
2008-05-14 20:17 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: That's a good way of arguing that you don't exist.
2008-05-14 20:17 < Ziggy_Sawdust> If I make a program that simulates life, all its actions aren't creating anything new, just uncovering truths that already existed
2008-05-14 20:17 < Ziggy_Sawdust> meaning NOTHING EXISTS, IT'S JUST REALIZING POTENTIAL THAT IT ALREADY HAD
2008-05-14 20:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> MEANING EVERYTHING EXISTS AND TO STATE THAT EXISTENCE IS ONE WAY IS POINTLESS
2008-05-14 20:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> holy shit, I think I just broke the universe
2008-05-14 20:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> o_o
2008-05-14 20:18 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: Not necessarily. You're falling into the Platonist way of thinking. You're saying that everything already exists, it just has to be discovered.
2008-05-14 20:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> >_
2008-05-14 20:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> *_*
2008-05-14 20:18 < Lucifer_Cat> anyways, since "matter cannot be created" i suspect even more so that its a simulation
2008-05-14 20:18 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: I'm saying that's not the case.
2008-05-14 20:18 < Lucifer_Cat> also, did anyone here read Scott Adams views on this?
2008-05-14 20:18 < quanticle> Anyway.
2008-05-14 20:18 < gwern> Lucifer_Cat: sure it can. matter and energy are intercovertible
2008-05-14 20:18 < Ziggy_Sawdust> And what? 2+2 just randomly happens to be 4 every time anyone does it?
2008-05-14 20:18 * quanticle brb
2008-05-14 20:19 < gwern> Lucifer_Cat: did you miss physics for the last 70 years or something?
2008-05-14 20:19 < Lucifer_Cat> gwern: i know the mass ---> Energy part...
2008-05-14 20:19 < Lucifer_Cat> is there an Energy ----> Matter thingy?
2008-05-14 20:19 < gwern> Lucifer_Cat: I mean, how the heck do you explain hawking radiation, for example, or the casimir effect, if matter is conserved?
2008-05-14 20:19 < Ziggy_Sawdust> But see, our universe has a finite number of atoms/quarks/particles that can be used to perform a computational task
2008-05-14 20:20 * gwern just listed one energy->matter conversion. hawking radition: turns black hole gravitational energy into particles
2008-05-14 20:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> because if there was no planck length/time/temperature, we could use enough resources to "crash" the simulation
2008-05-14 20:20 < gwern> not to mention the quantum foam itself is one ongoing demonstration of matter<->energy
2008-05-14 20:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> which is why there are such restrictions
2008-05-14 20:20 < Lucifer_Cat> i only know bout hawking goods and kashmir effect
2008-05-14 20:21 < Ziggy_Sawdust> and if our universe is really a grain of sand in comparison with the containing universe, then the amount of entropy we generate is inconsequential
2008-05-14 20:21 < Lucifer_Cat> gwern: cool.. i didnt know that... but then again, isnt it like Energy +/x Matter = Constant?
2008-05-14 20:21 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Lucifer_Cat: I believe there's a slight loss in the equation
2008-05-14 20:21 < gwern> the mass defect?
2008-05-14 20:22 < Cream> mudkips?
2008-05-14 20:22 < gwern> "The Mormon Church has instructed its lawyers to gag the Internet over WikiLeaks' release of the 1968 and 1999 versions of its confidential handbook for Church leaders. Apart from attacking WikiLeaks, legal demands were sent to Jimmy Wales of the WikiMedia foundation for a WikiNews article merely linking to the material, and scribd.com has also been censored. WikiLeaks has (of course) refused to remove the documents."
2008-05-14 20:22 < Ziggy_Sawdust> quanticle|away: ?
2008-05-14 20:22 < gwern> ah, so that's what that was about
2008-05-14 20:22 < Lucifer_Cat> btw, i dunno how this discussion started, but i say its about time they had this large hadron collider getting at work and creating the fucking blackhole.
2008-05-14 20:22 < Ziggy_Sawdust> The Large Hardon Collider?
2008-05-14 20:22 < Ziggy_Sawdust> i.e. buttsecks?
2008-05-14 20:23 < Ziggy_Sawdust> Gwern: Link to Mormon dox?
2008-05-14 20:23 < Cream> DIVIDE BY ZERO!
2008-05-14 20:23 < Cream> OH SHIT!
2008-05-14 20:23 < gwern> Lucifer_Cat: yeah, the law is basically conservation of mass * energy; that's a good way to think of it
2008-05-14 20:24 < gwern> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/14/125244
2008-05-14 20:24 < Lucifer_Cat> gwern: so in the end, its a constant right
2008-05-14 20:25 < gwern> Lucifer_Cat: probably. I'm not hugely versed in the details of mass/energy conversions
2008-05-14 20:25 < Lucifer_Cat> hmmm
2008-05-14 20:26 * gwern is more philosopher than physicist
2008-05-14 20:26 < Lucifer_Cat> http://www.marriedtothesea.com/042208/oops-thats-not-funny.gif
2008-05-14 20:33 * TheWeasel watches a horrible version of Jolene on teevee
2008-05-14 20:34 < TheWeasel> that woman has no sense at all for flow or emphasis
2008-05-14 20:34 < TheWeasel> it's astonishingly awful
2008-05-14 20:34 < TheWeasel> Sherrié Austin
2008-05-14 20:35 * TheWeasel wonders whether the ´ is there for the hell of it or if it's actually spoken
2008-05-14 20:36 < Messedrocker> share-ee-ay
2008-05-14 20:36 < TheWeasel> still gratuitous.
2008-05-14 20:37 < TheWeasel> non-etymological variation
2008-05-14 20:37 < denelson83> é is pronounced /e/
2008-05-14 20:37 < TheWeasel> I know that
2008-05-14 20:37 < TheWeasel> not sure if it holds true
2008-05-14 20:37 < denelson83> if what holds true?
2008-05-14 20:37 < TheWeasel> English-language name-givers sometimes add things without knowing why
2008-05-14 20:38 < denelson83> Oh, like [[Heavy metal umlaut]]
2008-05-14 20:38 < TheWeasel> so it may well be intended to be silent
2008-05-14 20:38 < Ziggy_Sawdust> quanticle|away:
2008-05-14 20:41 < Lucifer_Cat> they dont give a damn
2008-05-14 20:41 < Lucifer_Cat> bout any jumping, playing band
2008-05-14 20:42 < Lucifer_Cat> it aint what they call, rock and roll
2008-05-14 20:43 < Lucifer_Cat> meow?
2008-05-14 20:43 < TheWeasel> tîmé to röck and röll
2008-05-14 20:43 < Lucifer_Cat> \o/ the weasel is here!
2008-05-14 20:43 < Lucifer_Cat> with his heavily accented english
2008-05-14 20:43 < Lucifer_Cat> what you upto
2008-05-14 20:44 < Lucifer_Cat> isnt it like late in the night there
2008-05-14 20:44 < TheWeasel> I HAFF NO ÄKZENT!
2008-05-14 20:44 < TheWeasel> it is.
2008-05-14 20:44 < TheWeasel> I'm about to leave
2008-05-14 20:44 < Lucifer_Cat> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1b/The_Homer_by_Carlos_Bisquertt.jpg/800px-The_Homer_by_Carlos_Bisquertt.jpg
2008-05-14 20:45 < mattbuck> nice
2008-05-14 20:45 * TheWeasel listens to country music
2008-05-14 20:46 < Lucifer_Cat> you mean german folk songs?
2008-05-14 20:46 < Messedrocker> or Merle Haggard?
2008-05-14 20:47 < Cream> hAGGER?
2008-05-14 20:47 < TheWeasel> b)
2008-05-14 20:47 < TheWeasel> a) is called Volksmusik
2008-05-14 20:47 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: You pinged me.
2008-05-14 20:47 * Cream slaps Ziggy_Sawdust around a bit with a large trout
2008-05-14 20:48 * DrSkullthumper slaps Cream with an even larger trout, to great comedic effect
2008-05-14 20:48 < TheWeasel> and then there's Volkstümliche Musik which is techno pop posing as folk music
2008-05-14 20:48 * Cream slaps DrSkullFucker with a used syringe
2008-05-14 20:48 < DrSkullthumper> It's thumper
2008-05-14 20:48 < DrSkullthumper> SkullTHUMPER
2008-05-14 20:48 < Cream> SkullFucker?
2008-05-14 20:49 < Lucifer_Cat> ok technical Q...
2008-05-14 20:49 < DrSkullthumper> THUMPER DAMMIT
2008-05-14 20:49 < Ziggy_Sawdust> C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER
2008-05-14 20:49 < DrSkullthumper> Lucifer_Cat: ?
2008-05-14 20:49 < Lucifer_Cat> if i theres an article in say state R5
2008-05-14 20:49 < Lucifer_Cat> then someone makes 3 edits to it.
2008-05-14 20:49 < Lucifer_Cat> R6 R7 and R8
2008-05-14 20:49 < Lucifer_Cat> how can i revert it back to R5?
2008-05-14 20:49 < DrSkullthumper> Yes...
2008-05-14 20:50 < DrSkullthumper> Go to history, find R5, click on the date. Click edit. It'll warn you it's a less recent version and all edits will be lost since R5 blah blah blah. Click save.
2008-05-14 20:51 < Lucifer_Cat> ahh thanks.
2008-05-14 20:51 < DrSkullthumper> Yer welcome
2008-05-14 20:53 < Lucifer_Cat> this nutcase has been vandalizing articles and adding insanely pov'd borderline vandalism to others.
2008-05-14 20:55 < Lucifer_Cat> 99 Luft Skullz
2008-05-14 20:57 < Cream> where is Ceiling_Cat?
2008-05-14 20:57 < DrSkullthumper> On the ceiling, likely
2008-05-14 20:57 < Cream> o rly
2008-05-14 20:57 < DrSkullthumper> ya rly
2008-05-14 20:58 < quanticle> yes wai
2008-05-14 20:58 < Lucifer_Cat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:12.42.51.27 and look at his recent contribs.... would you say its sufficient grounds to ask for a ban?
2008-05-14 20:58 < DrSkullthumper> What the hell's a quanticle anyway?
2008-05-14 20:58 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: look at the link plz
2008-05-14 20:59 < quanticle> DrSkullthumper: Dude, you asked this the last four times we saw each other.
2008-05-14 20:59 < DrSkullthumper> quanticle: It was probably a bad idea to remove my short-term memory the other day then. Although it makes a lovely discussion piece, floating in a jar like that.
2008-05-14 21:00 < quanticle> DrSkullthumper: Yeah. You should have taken out your ethics and empathy centers.
2008-05-14 21:01 < DrSkullthumper> That was a whiiiile ago
2008-05-14 21:01 * Lucifer_Cat uncycs quanticle
2008-05-14 21:01 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: What about it? The dude blanked a page, and he got a vandalism warning for it.
2008-05-14 21:01 < Lucifer_Cat> and his recent edits... and hes had more than one warning
2008-05-14 21:02 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: he hasn't edited in a while
2008-05-14 21:02 < Lucifer_Cat> 3 actuallu
2008-05-14 21:02 < Lucifer_Cat> and time for 4th
2008-05-14 21:02 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Three? I only see a single warning.
2008-05-14 21:03 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: AIV only works if the guy is still active.
2008-05-14 21:03 < Lucifer_Cat> other 2 arent tagged as that i agree
2008-05-14 21:03 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: AIV?
2008-05-14 21:03 < Mahlzahn> [[WP:AIV]]
2008-05-14 21:04 < Lucifer_Cat> # 14:17, 14 May 2008 (hist) (diff) Wikipedia:WikiProject Palestine/Topic‎ (→Palestinian National Authority)
2008-05-14 21:04 < Lucifer_Cat> # 15:40, 13 May 2008 (hist) (diff) Vasistha‎ (→The tale of Vashishtha and Vishwamitra)
2008-05-14 21:04 < Mahlzahn> thats ages ago dude
2008-05-14 21:04 < Lucifer_Cat> unless im wrong, thats pretty recent
2008-05-14 21:04 < Lucifer_Cat> dude... its 14 MAY 2008
2008-05-14 21:04 < Mahlzahn> he has to be active *now*
2008-05-14 21:05 < Lucifer_Cat> its may right now right?
2008-05-14 21:05 * Lucifer_Cat actually had to check. dude, thats yesterday and todau
2008-05-14 21:05 < Lucifer_Cat> today
2008-05-14 21:05 < Mahlzahn> as in around 01:05 UTC
2008-05-14 21:06 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: Yeah. Its almost 36 hours old!
2008-05-14 21:06 < Lucifer_Cat> still... so it works only if someone catches him minutes after he edits?
2008-05-14 21:06 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: No. Mahlzahn and I are being horribly sarcastic, and are chuckling right now because you're not getting the joke.
2008-05-14 21:06 < quanticle> Right, Mahlzahn?
2008-05-14 21:06 < Balzac> Hello?
2008-05-14 21:07 < Lucifer_Cat> fugglers
2008-05-14 21:07 < Mahlzahn> Its an IP, you can't block an IP so long after the fact. The IP will have changed by now.
2008-05-14 21:07 < Balzac> Some idiot keeps on undoing an article that I contributed a lot to. I don't want to get into an edit war...so what's the best way to get him to stop?
2008-05-14 21:08 < Mahlzahn> Balzac: link?
2008-05-14 21:08 < Balzac> He claims the term isn't in the encyclopedia
2008-05-14 21:08 < Mahlzahn> Balzac: link?
2008-05-14 21:08 < Balzac> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_%28slang%29
2008-05-14 21:09 < Balzac> I just registered yesterday so i could fight him on this
2008-05-14 21:09 < Cyrius> Rossami isn't "some idiot"
2008-05-14 21:10 < DrSkullthumper> Wikipedia found its oldest surviving edit, didn't it?
2008-05-14 21:10 < DrSkullthumper> How?
2008-05-14 21:10 < pengo> DrSkullthumper: probably a developer looking at the database
2008-05-14 21:10 < Mahlzahn> Balzac: Rossami has a good point. I suggest you discuss it with him on his talk page.
2008-05-14 21:10 < DrSkullthumper> There's no other way then huh
2008-05-14 21:11 < pengo> DrSkullthumper: also there were some database merges as the system evolved
2008-05-14 21:11 < DrSkullthumper> Yes; that's why I said "surviving".
2008-05-14 21:11 < Balzac> Listen, I've contributed a lot to it. If I went through all of wikipedia I bet you that 50%+ could be categorized as a dictionary definition
2008-05-14 21:11 < Ziggy_Sawdust> what is a quanticle?
2008-05-14 21:12 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: hmmm... hes used a similar ip in the past
2008-05-14 21:12 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawdust: STFU newfag ;)
2008-05-14 21:12 < Lucifer_Cat> 12.42.51.28 ans 12.42.51.27
2008-05-14 21:13 < gwern> Balzac: I'd disagree. I've gone special:random surfing quite a bit, and 50% is impossibly high
2008-05-14 21:13 < Mahlzahn> then there is no point blocking him anyway.
2008-05-14 21:13 < gwern> 10% isn't even likely
2008-05-14 21:14 < quanticle> Balzac: Regardless. Rossami has a point. Your argument isn't with us, its with Rossami, so I'd put a message on his talk page.
2008-05-14 21:14 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: if the vandalism is impossible to control, then post at WP:RFPP
2008-05-14 21:14 < Balzac> Already done
2008-05-14 21:14 < Ziggy_Sawdust> ...
2008-05-14 21:14 < Balzac> ..
2008-05-14 21:14 < Mahlzahn> s/impossible to control/gets out of hand/
2008-05-14 21:14 < Ziggy_Sawdust> No srsly, what's a quanticle
2008-05-14 21:15 < quanticle> Am I the only one who feels a little odd speaking about Wikipedia on #wikipedia.
2008-05-14 21:15 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: well ok. i'll warn him.
2008-05-14 21:15 < quanticle> Ziggy_Sawsdust: Guess.
2008-05-14 21:15 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: no
2008-05-14 21:15 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: no point. If his IP is changing he won't see it.
2008-05-14 21:15 < Lucifer_Cat> Ziggy_Sawdust: its got somethng to do with sinsitive nipples
2008-05-14 21:15 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Heh. Yeah. Usually these sorts of conversations are on #wikipedia-en.
2008-05-14 21:15 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: O_o
2008-05-14 21:15 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: i try to stay away from serious places
2008-05-14 21:16 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: oh sorry bout that.
2008-05-14 21:16 < Lucifer_Cat> Ziggy_Sawdust: forget what i said.
2008-05-14 21:16 < Mahlzahn> Lucifer_Cat: besides, he's seen the warnings at User_talk:12.42.51.27
2008-05-14 21:16 < Lucifer_Cat> Ziggy_Sawdust: i meant *sensitive nipples, not sinsitive.
2008-05-14 21:16 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: how do you know?
2008-05-14 21:17 < Lucifer_Cat> i mean how to be sure if someone has....
2008-05-14 21:17 < Mahlzahn> because those warnings were posted while he was still dicking around.
2008-05-14 21:17 < Lucifer_Cat> hmmm
2008-05-14 21:18 < Lucifer_Cat> anyways, lets not stray too much off topic.
2008-05-14 21:18 < Lucifer_Cat> ok so Ziggy_Sawdust ... any guesses?
2008-05-14 21:18 < quanticle> "Groups extend to their own less scrutiny than they extend to those who disagree with them. They form their own domains of knowledge that tend to exclude sources of disconfirming data. Agreement on core principles like "Society should maximize individual liberty" means a lot of questions never get asked."
2008-05-14 21:18 < Mahlzahn> topic being gossiping about other 'pedians? :)
2008-05-14 21:19 < quanticle> Mahlzahn: Or amateur philosophy.
2008-05-14 21:19 < Lucifer_Cat> Mahlzahn: no. talking about WP and stuff.
2008-05-14 21:19 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: On #wikipedia? Perish the thought.
2008-05-14 21:19 < Mahlzahn> oh, that. bah!
2008-05-14 21:19 < Lucifer_Cat> i mean, talking about WP is OFF TOPIC
2008-05-14 21:19 < Mahlzahn> yes, seriously OT
2008-05-14 21:19 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Ah. Ok.
2008-05-14 21:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> :O
2008-05-14 21:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> :O
2008-05-14 21:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> HOLY SHIT
2008-05-14 21:20 < Lucifer_Cat> stop it before we stop you.
2008-05-14 21:20 < Mahlzahn> yes?
2008-05-14 21:20 < Ziggy_Sawdust> A CP THREAD ON /B/