freenode #wikipedia

2008-05-09 05:44 < ThePolecat> They should absolutely do that about Mary Matalin.
2008-05-09 05:45 < ThePolecat> (but won't because GOP hacks married to Democratic strategists are hunky-dory)
2008-05-09 05:50 < ThePolecat> (not that Jimmy Carville's work is much more pleasant)
2008-05-09 05:59 * ThePolecat reviews spaceflight-related articles
2008-05-09 06:01 * ThePolecat ODs on EBT
2008-05-09 06:15 < Sannita> hi all
2008-05-09 06:15 < Sannita> I need some assistance for a template
2008-05-09 06:15 < Sannita> may I ask to someone to help me?
2008-05-09 06:15 * snowolf hammers Sannita
2008-05-09 06:15 < Sannita> ouch!
2008-05-09 06:15 < Sannita> :P
2008-05-09 06:16 < snowolf> He needs assistence with a simple ifreq parserfunction
2008-05-09 06:16 < snowolf> asked me but I suck a parserfunctions :(
2008-05-09 06:16 < snowolf> anybody around? ;-)
2008-05-09 06:17 * ThePolecat notes that answers are in shorter supply than questions
2008-05-09 06:17 * Sannita pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease
2008-05-09 06:18 * snowolf shuts ThePolecat and sends him to study parserfunctions
2008-05-09 06:18 * Sannita thinks ThePolecat is right
2008-05-09 06:18 < erwin85> Sannita, what's the problem?
2008-05-09 06:18 * ThePolecat knows nothing about parserfunctions
2008-05-09 06:18 < Sannita> erwin85: I need to make a grey background as a default bg for a template
2008-05-09 06:18 < ThePolecat> even less than what I know about templates
2008-05-09 06:18 < yao_ziyuan> i seem to observe that the germans are more willing to participate in international activities where english is the work language. think about KDE.
2008-05-09 06:18 < Sannita> plus a white background if requested
2008-05-09 06:19 < erwin85> What template?
2008-05-09 06:19 < erwin85> (link)
2008-05-09 06:19 < Sannita> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita/Luca_Martinelli <-- there (it's a sandbox of mine)
2008-05-09 06:19 < yao_ziyuan> can i say that the germans are culturally less resistant to english-dominated international activities?
2008-05-09 06:20 < erwin85> If Sfondo is 'on' it should be white and if not grey?
2008-05-09 06:20 < Sannita> yes
2008-05-09 06:20 < Sannita> (I know is a bit unusual, but...)
2008-05-09 06:20 < ThePolecat> yao_ziyuan: That's grammatically correct but semantically blurry
2008-05-09 06:22 < Lastsal2> hello all
2008-05-09 06:23 < erwin85> Sannita, should work now. You might want to tweak the precise color. The fourth parameter of ifeq is shown when the variables are not equal.
2008-05-09 06:23 < yao_ziyuan> ThePolecat: for example, english is called a "Germanic language", which may make the germans feel proud: they're the father of english
2008-05-09 06:24 < Sannita> erwin85: thanks a lot :)
2008-05-09 06:24 < erwin85> yw
2008-05-09 06:24 * ThePolecat is a German and there's no particular affinity between British and German culture, usually.
2008-05-09 06:24 < ThePolecat> only insofar as English is easy to learn to speak on a basic level.
2008-05-09 06:25 < ThePolecat> the wars have removed whatever influence we had on one another via them borrowing our royals.
2008-05-09 06:25 < yao_ziyuan> ThePolecat: do you feel you're closer to the anglo-american bloc or the french bloc (there's hardly a french bloc now)?
2008-05-09 06:25 < ThePolecat> the latter, traditionally.
2008-05-09 06:25 < Sannita> erwin85: I think it doesn't :(
2008-05-09 06:26 < ThePolecat> except that there was a strong relationship with the US here in West Berlin which might have played a role
2008-05-09 06:26 < ThePolecat> but traditionally Germany looks towards France far more than towards the UK.
2008-05-09 06:27 < Lastsal2> fair enough, here in the uk we talk more of the french than the German
2008-05-09 06:28 < Lastsal2> I guess thats just due to the french being the closest country
2008-05-09 06:28 < yao_ziyuan> (06:26:47 PM) ThePolecat: but traditionally Germany looks towards France far more than towards the UK. << why is that?
2008-05-09 06:28 < Sfan00> Lastal2: Also the French were for a number of years the enemy as opposed to the Germans that were allies
2008-05-09 06:28 < ThePolecat> it's a continental thing.
2008-05-09 06:28 < Sannita> erwin85: it seems that grey overrules white
2008-05-09 06:29 < ThePolecat> traditional love-hate relationship
2008-05-09 06:29 < Sannita> I mean even if I put "on", it still remains grey
2008-05-09 06:29 < ThePolecat> plus, our legal systems are practically the same
2008-05-09 06:29 < Lastsal2> also most uk people go to holiday in france at some point
2008-05-09 06:29 < ThePolecat> traditional, political issues were transferrable
2008-05-09 06:29 < erwin85> Can I try something in your sandbox?
2008-05-09 06:29 < Sfan00> At least you have laws that saya what a Govt can't do ;)
2008-05-09 06:29 < yao_ziyuan> let me make an example: #wikipedia is an english-speaking channel, and i have not yet seen anyone expose his/her french nationality. but in #ubuntu-fr, i see a lot french guys
2008-05-09 06:30 < grobda24> What's a good intro to show to someone new to Open Source / Wikipedia, and the whole shebang ?
2008-05-09 06:30 < Sfan00> Rather than laws that basicly say a GOvt can with enough votes do what it likes :(
2008-05-09 06:30 * grobda24 says hello :)
2008-05-09 06:30 < ThePolecat> yao_ziyuan: There are native speakers of French in here, perhaps more than you'd think.
2008-05-09 06:30 < Sfan00> grobda24: How do you mean, (BTW Don't use the GNU philosphy pages)
2008-05-09 06:30 < yao_ziyuan> it just seems the french people are less willing to go to english-speaking online societies
2008-05-09 06:30 < ThePolecat> there's just not a lot of similarity between Germany and the UK in terms of common issues.
2008-05-09 06:30 < Sfan00> because those will put people off at leats initally
2008-05-09 06:30 < ThePolecat> yao_ziyuan: That's true.
2008-05-09 06:31 < Sannita> erwin85: do as you want
2008-05-09 06:31 < Sannita> *what
2008-05-09 06:31 < ThePolecat> and English is very far removed from German, they're basically on different ends of the Germanic family
2008-05-09 06:31 < grobda24> Sfan ... I'm emailing someone that thinks Open Source means, this: http://threadless.com
2008-05-09 06:31 < erwin85> [[Utente:Erwin/Scratch]]
2008-05-09 06:31 < ThePolecat> plus English is becoming ever more Romanized
2008-05-09 06:31 < grobda24> Sfan00 ^^
2008-05-09 06:31 < ThePolecat> the old Saxon words disappear quickly
2008-05-09 06:31 < yao_ziyuan> who is from france here anyway?
2008-05-09 06:31 * yao_ziyuan is going to check WHOIS
2008-05-09 06:32 * ThePolecat would think there are a few Belgians and Frenchpeople abroad
2008-05-09 06:32 < Sannita> erwin85: think I found the mistake
2008-05-09 06:32 < Sfan00> grobda24: Oh
2008-05-09 06:32 < ThePolecat> English is about as far removed from German as Icelandic
2008-05-09 06:32 < Sannita> erwin85: Thanks *very* much :)
2008-05-09 06:33 < erwin85> yw
2008-05-09 06:33 < yao_ziyuan> i did catch a french in #linguistics
2008-05-09 06:33 < ThePolecat> which is impossible for me to read, and I can read Danish and Norwegian and get at least a shadow of a clue what it might mean.
2008-05-09 06:33 < yao_ziyuan> o no, in #english
2008-05-09 06:33 < grobda24> Sfan00 ... I'm so embedded in all this I can't think of a good intro to it. The Wikipedia pages on "The Cathedral and the Bizaar" and "Open Source" don't seem appropriate.
2008-05-09 06:34 < Sfan00> HMM, can't really help
2008-05-09 06:34 < grobda24> k
2008-05-09 06:34 < yao_ziyuan> who's nickname in this channel looks french?
2008-05-09 06:34 < Sannita> thank you all, I'm leaving, have a nice day ;)
2008-05-09 06:34 < Lastsal2> bye
2008-05-09 06:34 * ThePolecat points out that he is German without his nickname giving it away
2008-05-09 06:35 < yao_ziyuan> the chinese govt educated us that france is the most frendly to china among western powers...
2008-05-09 06:35 < yao_ziyuan> until this olympic torch thing :)
2008-05-09 06:35 < ThePolecat> I don't know if that holds.
2008-05-09 06:35 < ThePolecat> perhaps.
2008-05-09 06:35 < yao_ziyuan> because france is the first to recognize the PRC among the west
2008-05-09 06:35 < ThePolecat> depends on how "western" and "power" is defined
2008-05-09 06:36 < ThePolecat> there's a lot of surface opposition going on
2008-05-09 06:36 < yao_ziyuan> and france is often used to highlight internal conflicts in the west
2008-05-09 06:36 < yao_ziyuan> for example, france objected to american invasion of iraq...
2008-05-09 06:36 < ThePolecat> while carrying on full and perfectly good relations under the cover of official criticism.
2008-05-09 06:36 < grobda24> Sfan00 .. lol. ... I think you alredy told me. It IS the Gnu pages !
2008-05-09 06:37 < yao_ziyuan> and the former french president said "it's ok for iran to have nukes"
2008-05-09 06:37 < ThePolecat> the obsession on the French resistance to Iraq while ignoring other countries was quite ridiculous
2008-05-09 06:37 < ThePolecat> yao_ziyuan: Part of why he's a former president, I guess
2008-05-09 06:37 < ThePolecat> Sarkozy is far more in the US camp
2008-05-09 06:37 < yao_ziyuan> and france is traditional colonization rival to britain
2008-05-09 06:37 < Sfan00> grobda24: Using those with a new user, is like trying to preach communsim to a bank employee
2008-05-09 06:37 < Sfan00> :(
2008-05-09 06:37 < ThePolecat> Yea, France was the third worst colonial power
2008-05-09 06:38 < ThePolecat> after Belgium and Germany
2008-05-09 06:38 < grobda24> Sfan00 ... I know. But I REALLY don't want someone with a Bank mindset on my project :O
2008-05-09 06:38 < Sfan00> Which is?
2008-05-09 06:38 < yao_ziyuan> and france quit NATO military command
2008-05-09 06:38 < ThePolecat> oh, that's been a while.
2008-05-09 06:39 < yao_ziyuan> i think all this is because they speak french
2008-05-09 06:39 < ThePolecat> at least they've stopped nuclear testing.
2008-05-09 06:39 < yao_ziyuan> and don't want to follow english
2008-05-09 06:39 < Sfan00> !admin
2008-05-09 06:39 < ThePolecat> Well, speaking French is only part of the exceptionalism
2008-05-09 06:39 < snowolf> Sfan00: How many times I told you to include the question in the ping?
2008-05-09 06:39 < grobda24> Sfan00 ... http://spacedatawiki.sourceforge.net/ .... Could you have meant http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html ? Seems pretty low key, but I guess that's to me.
2008-05-09 06:40 < Sfan00> snowolf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Barack_Obama.jpg - Vandalism?
2008-05-09 06:40 < yao_ziyuan> does anyone following this discussion know any french person in this channel? if not, i doubt there are many
2008-05-09 06:40 < Sfan00> I am seeing an image that certainly isn't a picture of the Democratic candidate
2008-05-09 06:40 * ThePolecat does.
2008-05-09 06:40 < snowolf> Sfan00: I didn't said I would take the ticket :) I'm retired.
2008-05-09 06:41 < yao_ziyuan> ThePolecat: who?
2008-05-09 06:41 < Sfan00> Anyway any admins care to check?
2008-05-09 06:41 < ThePolecat> at least two whose nicknames I can't reproduce right now.
2008-05-09 06:42 < yao_ziyuan> i just checked #wikipedia-fr
2008-05-09 06:42 < ThePolecat> but it's true, French people are conspicuously underrepresented on English projects.
2008-05-09 06:42 < yao_ziyuan> lots of people there :)
2008-05-09 06:42 < yao_ziyuan> maybe that's why there're few french here
2008-05-09 06:42 < ThePolecat> Well, fr.wikipedia is an unmitigated desaster if you ask me.
2008-05-09 06:42 < ThePolecat> but nobody does
2008-05-09 06:42 < ThePolecat> haha
2008-05-09 06:42 < ThePolecat> it's so shoddy
2008-05-09 06:42 < ThePolecat> compared to, say, the German and Dutch WPs
2008-05-09 06:43 < grobda24> Sfan00 ... did you hv a look see ?
2008-05-09 06:43 < snowolf> ThePolecat: I hear the germans and they think dewiki is a disaster, I hear the italian and they think itwiki is a distaster, I hear from commons and they tell me it's a disaster over there too
2008-05-09 06:43 < snowolf> and I think enwiki is a disaster :)
2008-05-09 06:43 < yao_ziyuan> so, like i said, the french prefer to form their own communities
2008-05-09 06:44 < ThePolecat> de.wiki is run in a very German way.
2008-05-09 06:44 < ThePolecat> It's efficient but cold.
2008-05-09 06:44 < ThePolecat> so I don't know if it's a failure if content is good but everybody is unhappy
2008-05-09 06:45 < yao_ziyuan> man,
2008-05-09 06:45 < yao_ziyuan> let's rename english as "A Random Code System", or ARCS
2008-05-09 06:45 < yao_ziyuan> this can promote globalism and demote nationalism
2008-05-09 06:45 < yao_ziyuan> because all natural languages are based on root words whose sounds are randomly given
2008-05-09 06:46 < yao_ziyuan> maybe this can attract more french into #wikipedia...
2008-05-09 06:46 < Lastsal2> random sounds
2008-05-09 06:46 < yao_ziyuan> if this doesn't work, a really new language must be introduced slowly
2008-05-09 06:46 < Lastsal2> what about onomateopia?
2008-05-09 06:47 < yao_ziyuan> Lastsal2: onomateopia is universal to all languages
2008-05-09 06:47 < ThePolecat> yao_ziyuan: Has been tried in the 1920s, didn't catch on.
2008-05-09 06:47 * ThePolecat enjoys speaking randomly growing languages
2008-05-09 06:47 < yao_ziyuan> ThePolecat: times changed
2008-05-09 06:48 < ThePolecat> but not in favor of prescriptivism.
2008-05-09 06:48 < ThePolecat> au contraire
2008-05-09 06:48 < Lastsal2> yao_ziyuan: Exactly so words aren't randomly given souunds
2008-05-09 06:48 < yao_ziyuan> Lastsal2: words other than onomateopia
2008-05-09 06:49 < Lastsal2> yao_ziyuan sorry for being pernickity ;)
2008-05-09 06:50 < ThePolecat> people don't go for things designed ex nihilo
2008-05-09 06:50 < yao_ziyuan> there is a way
2008-05-09 06:50 < ThePolecat> like built cities like Brasilia and Abuja never stick to their predefined limits.
2008-05-09 06:50 < yao_ziyuan> for example,
2008-05-09 06:51 < yao_ziyuan> we can first introduce a word "qwert" to replace "is"
2008-05-09 06:51 < Lastsal2> nice choice
2008-05-09 06:51 < ThePolecat> no we can't, it's unwieldy and a nightmare to pronounce in most languages.
2008-05-09 06:51 < Lastsal2> this is esparanto all over again
2008-05-09 06:52 < yao_ziyuan> we just need enough globalists who run a computer program that automatically changes "is" in their outgoing messages to "qwert"
2008-05-09 06:52 < Lastsal2> that qwert silly, it'll never catch on
2008-05-09 06:53 < yao_ziyuan> by "qwert" i just make an example
2008-05-09 06:54 < ThePolecat> that goes against all rules of language acquisition, and then some.
2008-05-09 06:54 * ThePolecat prefers bad English to random CL
2008-05-09 06:54 < yao_ziyuan> it works
2008-05-09 06:55 < yao_ziyuan> people are lazy and don't like to take initiative,
2008-05-09 06:55 < Lastsal2> what qwert your point?
2008-05-09 06:55 < ThePolecat> :-D
2008-05-09 06:55 < yao_ziyuan> but the computer can because it's automated
2008-05-09 06:55 < yao_ziyuan> we can leverage the power of automation to drive a social change
2008-05-09 06:56 < ThePolecat> Language is too fundamental to have such a large prescription pushed upon it.
2008-05-09 06:56 < ThePolecat> Plus, there's no global authority to enforce any of it.
2008-05-09 06:56 < Lastsal2> wouldn't it be easier to undermine everyone by introducing a new word rather than changing them?
2008-05-09 06:56 < yao_ziyuan> i agree that native language is fundamental
2008-05-09 06:57 < yao_ziyuan> but i'm not pushing for a global native language
2008-05-09 06:57 < yao_ziyuan> i don't attempt to make "qwert" native to your conscious
2008-05-09 06:57 < Lastsal2> create a universal new word then
2008-05-09 06:57 < yao_ziyuan> i'm just marketing it as a global symbol
2008-05-09 06:57 < ThePolecat> o.o
2008-05-09 06:57 < yao_ziyuan> like a keyword in C++
2008-05-09 06:57 < ThePolecat> it's not going to catch on.
2008-05-09 06:57 < ThePolecat> English goes a long way towards that already.
2008-05-09 06:58 < yao_ziyuan> we just need to collect many globalists
2008-05-09 06:58 < Lastsal2> e.g. snibble can mean dancing like no-one is watching
2008-05-09 06:58 < Lastsal2> usage: Where is Jason?
2008-05-09 06:58 < Lastsal2> He is in the corner having a snibble
2008-05-09 06:59 < ThePolecat> difficult to pronounce in Inuktit and Javanese, I'm sure.
2008-05-09 06:59 < yao_ziyuan> if course, words from major media outlets or celebrities weigh more
2008-05-09 06:59 < yao_ziyuan> and,
2008-05-09 07:00 < ThePolecat> Yes they do. In English.
2008-05-09 07:00 < yao_ziyuan> that program not only changes "is" to "qwert" in their ougoing messages,
2008-05-09 07:00 < yao_ziyuan> it also does it to their incoming messages
2008-05-09 07:00 < ThePolecat> that seems redundant.
2008-05-09 07:00 < ThePolecat> Plus, most communication isn't electronic
2008-05-09 07:00 < yao_ziyuan> ...
2008-05-09 07:00 < yao_ziyuan> then first market it in the electronic world
2008-05-09 07:01 < yao_ziyuan> and it will goes to print media
2008-05-09 07:01 < Lastsal2> see a new word needs no enforcement, since it fills a word void
2008-05-09 07:01 < ThePolecat> no it won't.
2008-05-09 07:01 * ThePolecat still doesn't understand how that beats simply learning a common foreign language
2008-05-09 07:02 < yao_ziyuan> ThePolecat: nationalsim
2008-05-09 07:02 < yao_ziyuan> ThePolecat: just like the french people don't join this channel
2008-05-09 07:03 < ThePolecat> what makes you think they'll learn an artificial language if they are unwilling to take up English?
2008-05-09 07:03 < yao_ziyuan> well, actually, it goes like this:
2008-05-09 07:03 < yao_ziyuan> first, let most people in the world learn english using this method
2008-05-09 07:04 < ThePolecat> the method is redundant for that, obviously.
2008-05-09 07:04 < yao_ziyuan> i.e. modifying their native language communications (outgoing and incoming) with english words gradually
2008-05-09 07:04 < ThePolecat> except if you make it a kind of French-friendly proto-English
2008-05-09 07:05 < yao_ziyuan> then, as more world citizens take part in english-speaking online communities like this channel, we use the same method to introduce a truly randomly generated language
2008-05-09 07:05 < ThePolecat> But to what end?
2008-05-09 07:06 < yao_ziyuan> why don't they just stay using english, you ask. because there's still nationalsim in their hearts
2008-05-09 07:06 < ThePolecat> I think that's wrong
2008-05-09 07:06 < yao_ziyuan> ThePolecat: what what end?
2008-05-09 07:06 < ThePolecat> because they speak good Italian and Spanish.
2008-05-09 07:06 < ThePolecat> and oddly enough German.
2008-05-09 07:06 < ThePolecat> it's not just nationalism.
2008-05-09 07:08 < pengo> i just learnt that omnibus has a second definition
2008-05-09 07:08 < ThePolecat> Plus, the worst English in Europe is spoken in countries whose citizens do participate more frequently, like Italy and Germany
2008-05-09 07:08 < ThePolecat> omnibus bill?
2008-05-09 07:09 < pengo> ThePolecat: ok, three
2008-05-09 07:09 < ThePolecat> "omnibus" is dative and ablative plural of "all"
2008-05-09 07:09 < pengo> four
2008-05-09 07:09 < ThePolecat> haha
2008-05-09 07:09 < ThePolecat> in Latin, that is
2008-05-09 07:09 < ThePolecat> "for everyone" = bus
2008-05-09 07:10 < zocky> ThePolecat, german english is definitely not among the worst in europe
2008-05-09 07:10 < ThePolecat> heh, I'm famously self-hating :-P
2008-05-09 07:11 < zocky> italy, spain, portugal
2008-05-09 07:11 < ThePolecat> Well, most Italians are very fluent in... Italian.
2008-05-09 07:11 < zocky> greece too
2008-05-09 07:11 < ThePolecat> Greece definitely.
2008-05-09 07:11 < zocky> i'm sure the eastern europeans have all learned perfect american by now
2008-05-09 07:11 < zocky> so they can worship the great white chief in his own language
2008-05-09 07:12 < ThePolecat> Except Belarus maybe.
2008-05-09 07:12 < ThePolecat> the best English in Europe is spoken in the Netherlands and Norway
2008-05-09 07:12 < ThePolecat> the worst in Scotland :-P
2008-05-09 07:12 < zocky> yep, sweden and denmark too
2008-05-09 07:12 < zocky> germany is also among the best
2008-05-09 07:13 < ThePolecat> Vee haff vays to make you talk!
2008-05-09 07:13 < ThePolecat> it's funny
2008-05-09 07:13 < zocky> well, of course everybody has an accent
2008-05-09 07:13 * ThePolecat heard Slovenian officials speak English on TV the other day, and they all had a more than slight Austrian accent
2008-05-09 07:13 < ThePolecat> Oh
2008-05-09 07:13 < ThePolecat> I mean German
2008-05-09 07:13 < ThePolecat> not English
2008-05-09 07:14 < zocky> yeah, they all watched austrian TV as kids
2008-05-09 07:14 < ThePolecat> dey aaaaall hehd those loohng vaaaaowels
2008-05-09 07:14 < zocky> and some of them served or would have liked to serve under austrian SS commanders
2008-05-09 07:15 < ThePolecat> these weren't old enough
2008-05-09 07:15 < zocky> the long vowels could be a slovenian thing too
2008-05-09 07:15 * ThePolecat likes the Austrian accent
2008-05-09 07:15 < ThePolecat> they don't say "ein ganz großer" but "a ganz a großer"
2008-05-09 07:15 < zocky> in many dialects, all the accented vowels are now long
2008-05-09 07:16 < ThePolecat> :-)
2008-05-09 07:16 < RobJ1981> hi
2008-05-09 07:18 < ThePolecat> 'lo
2008-05-09 07:19 < zocky> ThePolecat, thanks for that.... my innocent mind started making associations on that, and now I have ein bisschen frieden playing in my head
2008-05-09 07:19 < ThePolecat> Woops. Sorry
2008-05-09 07:20 < zocky> i'll go watch the video, to see if nicole was actually hot or just looked hot to 9-year-old me
2008-05-09 07:20 < ThePolecat> Rest safely in the knowledge that the Eastern European and Scandinavian cartels will keep the ESC title indefinitely.
2008-05-09 07:20 < ThePolecat> she was supposed to be more angelic than hot, also to cover up her obvious lack of guitar-playing skillz
2008-05-09 07:21 < Lucifer_Cat> zip'ol kate
2008-05-09 07:21 < zocky> ThePolecat, she's actually holding the chords right
2008-05-09 07:22 < zocky> ThePolecat, but she doesn't look very convincing, no
2008-05-09 07:22 < ThePolecat> she does. :-)
2008-05-09 07:22 < Lucifer_Cat> who we talkin bout/?\
2008-05-09 07:22 < zocky> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkRNatrGgac&feature=related <--- nicole in 2008
2008-05-09 07:23 < ThePolecat> the chorus contains a whopping two chords
2008-05-09 07:23 < zocky> she's on the schlagerparade circuit now?
2008-05-09 07:23 < ThePolecat> if I hear it right, G and D7
2008-05-09 07:23 < ThePolecat> Has been for the rest of her career.
2008-05-09 07:24 < zocky> "has been" is the right expression, yes
2008-05-09 07:24 < ThePolecat> o.o
2008-05-09 07:24 < ThePolecat> she's got more attention lately, I think
2008-05-09 07:24 < ThePolecat> Don't know why.
2008-05-09 07:24 < ThePolecat> *Beatles - Ask Me Why
2008-05-09 07:25 < zocky> oh, she's singing in spanish too
2008-05-09 07:25 < zocky> attrocious :)
2008-05-09 07:25 < zocky> oh, and french too
2008-05-09 07:25 < zocky> but her french sounds so german I didn't notice it was french :)
2008-05-09 07:25 < ThePolecat> it's not like her potential audience can tell atrocious from non-atrocious.
2008-05-09 07:25 < Lucifer_Cat> lol
2008-05-09 07:25 < ThePolecat> she's from the Saar, they're quasi-French
2008-05-09 07:26 < ThePolecat> like Erich Honecker
2008-05-09 07:26 < zocky> he was from saar?
2008-05-09 07:26 < RobJ1981> Where's Saar?
2008-05-09 07:26 < ThePolecat> yes
2008-05-09 07:26 < ThePolecat> in extreme west-southern Germany, as it were
2008-05-09 07:26 < zocky> saarland was "independent" at one point
2008-05-09 07:26 < ThePolecat> Honecker's Saxon accent was fake
2008-05-09 07:26 < zocky> on the french and suiss border
2008-05-09 07:27 < ThePolecat> no
2008-05-09 07:27 < ThePolecat> Switzerland is far away
2008-05-09 07:27 < ThePolecat> nearer to Luxembourg actually
2008-05-09 07:27 < ThePolecat> due north of Lorraine
2008-05-09 07:27 < zocky> really? so why do you germans always call it extreme south west? :)
2008-05-09 07:28 < zocky> that's what a guy from saarbrucken told me too
2008-05-09 07:28 < ThePolecat> I coined the term "west-south" for it
2008-05-09 07:28 < ThePolecat> :-P
2008-05-09 07:28 < ThePolecat> because we have a western part that doesn't reach as far south, but it's in the southern pocket of that
2008-05-09 07:28 < zocky> ah, of course, I see now
2008-05-09 07:28 < zocky> it's in that corner
2008-05-09 07:29 < zocky> it's extreme south west of actual germany :P
2008-05-09 07:29 < ThePolecat> You mean Baden-Wurttemberg is inactual?
2008-05-09 07:29 < ThePolecat> :-)
2008-05-09 07:29 < zocky> ThePolecat, you should give bavaria and the bits around it to austra
2008-05-09 07:29 < zocky> *austria
2008-05-09 07:29 < ThePolecat> the southwesternmost part of Germany is on the other side of the Rhine from Basel
2008-05-09 07:30 < ThePolecat> zocky: That would drastically improve our political landscape.
2008-05-09 07:30 < ThePolecat> while the Austrian one is hard to make worse at this point
2008-05-09 07:30 < ThePolecat> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Rogers_phenomenon
2008-05-09 07:31 < zocky> :)
2008-05-09 07:32 < ThePolecat> but Bavaria itself is historically so diverse that there are parts that would probably resist those changes
2008-05-09 07:32 < ThePolecat> Franconia and most of the eastern part especially.
2008-05-09 07:32 < zocky> ThePolecat, it can improve your image in the balkans too
2008-05-09 07:32 < zocky> most people make it only as far as munich, and think that germany is the same as austria
2008-05-09 07:33 < ThePolecat> but it'd do damage to our tourism image in the world.
2008-05-09 07:33 < ThePolecat> knee-slapping lederhosen wearers still are a huge selling point
2008-05-09 07:34 < zocky> "Come see the famous multi-coloured sunsets of Ruhrland"
2008-05-09 07:34 < ThePolecat> heh
2008-05-09 07:34 < ThePolecat> "Der rote Mond von Wanne-Eickel" was a popular schlager of the 1960s
2008-05-09 07:34 < ThePolecat> Wanne-Eickel is a part of Herne now
2008-05-09 07:35 < ThePolecat> formerly an impressive example of what not to blow into the air.
2008-05-09 07:35 < ThePolecat> people couldn't put cushioned chairs on their balconies because they would be blackened after half a day.
2008-05-09 07:35 < zocky> yeah, very nicely situated, I see on the map
2008-05-09 07:36 < ThePolecat> Come For The Red Moon - Stay For The World Class Lung Cancer Treatment!
2008-05-09 07:37 < zocky> ThePolecat, ah, but unlike austria++, you would still have the sea
2008-05-09 07:37 < ThePolecat> well, there'd still be cuckoo clocks and getting drunk on Liebfrauenmilch cheap wine, I suppose.
2008-05-09 07:37 < zocky> maybe with global warming and some miracle from teutonic gods, people could actually enjoy swimming there?
2008-05-09 07:37 < ThePolecat> don't misunderestimate the Austrian navy on Neusiedler See.
2008-05-09 07:38 < ThePolecat> Well, they already pretend that they enjoy freezing their bums off.
2008-05-09 07:38 < zocky> ThePolecat, yes, our main defenses are where drava enters slovenia, to stop the austrian navy
2008-05-09 07:38 < ThePolecat> I guess that's one way to prepare for bivouacs in World War III.
2008-05-09 07:39 < ThePolecat> haha
2008-05-09 07:39 < ThePolecat> Carinthia probably has some kind of naval militia.
2008-05-09 07:39 < ThePolecat> brb.
2008-05-09 07:40 < zocky> our "navy" is fun too
2008-05-09 07:40 < zocky> we have on or two smallish boats, and one half-a-ship that we got from russians or ukrainians or something, instead of some money they owed us
2008-05-09 07:41 < zocky> we can't actually get a big ship, because we couldn't park all of it in slovenian territorial waters :)
2008-05-09 07:42 < ThePolecat> Navies that are not the US don't have lots to do these days.
2008-05-09 07:43 < zocky> so one of the jokes is that in case of war, we will use hillbillies as assault surfers, armed with chainsaws
2008-05-09 07:43 < ThePolecat> Ours swims up and down the Somalian coast doing absolutely nothing
2008-05-09 07:43 < ThePolecat> that should teach 'em :-)
2008-05-09 07:46 < zocky> when yugoslavia spent all that money on weapons and the army, it was a waste, but at least there was a realistic chance that we could defend ourselves, or at least organize an effective guerilla war.
2008-05-09 07:46 < zocky> now when slovenia spends even more money on weapons, it's just total waste
2008-05-09 07:46 < ThePolecat> I hear that ol' Josip had some experience in that field.
2008-05-09 07:47 < arcimboldo_> The Bosnian navy must about the same size as the Slovenian one.
2008-05-09 07:47 < zocky> we couldn't defend ourselves from any invader at all
2008-05-09 07:47 < zocky> arcimboldo_, probably
2008-05-09 07:47 < arcimboldo_> Neum and Koper may be comparable ...
2008-05-09 07:47 < zocky> except italy, of course, but you don't need weapons to defeat italy
2008-05-09 07:47 < ThePolecat> Heh, mighty Neum, where Croatians go for even cheaper gas?
2008-05-09 07:48 < zocky> neum was at the center of one of the great affairs that we had when the country was going to bits
2008-05-09 07:48 * arcimboldo_ hasn't ticked of Bosnia yet ...
2008-05-09 07:48 * ThePolecat thinks of countries with a similarly minute coastline
2008-05-09 07:48 < zocky> bosnian communist politicians had holiday homes there
2008-05-09 07:48 < ThePolecat> Togo and Benin and Gambia obviously
2008-05-09 07:48 < zocky> which with some exaggeration quickly became "grand villas"
2008-05-09 07:48 < arcimboldo_> I've now ticked of North Korea but still haven't been to Slovenia, Croatia or Bosnia.
2008-05-09 07:49 < arcimboldo_> of -> off
2008-05-09 07:49 < ThePolecat> arcimboldo_: How was NK?
2008-05-09 07:49 < arcimboldo_> Nice ... although one didn't see much of real North Korea from that tourist reserve ...
2008-05-09 07:49 < arcimboldo_> Just a few miserable farming efforts from the coach.
2008-05-09 07:50 < ThePolecat> yea.
2008-05-09 07:50 < ThePolecat> but you had the pleasure of flying a truly vintage Ilyuzhin
2008-05-09 07:50 < ThePolecat> !
2008-05-09 07:51 < arcimboldo_> Nope ... I've taken the Hyundai tour through the DMZ.
2008-05-09 07:51 < ThePolecat> oh right
2008-05-09 07:51 < zocky> isolation is one of the most stupid ideas that communist leaders ever had
2008-05-09 07:51 < arcimboldo_> From South Korea to Mount Kumgang
2008-05-09 07:52 < zocky> there's nothing to be gained from closing the borders, and much to be lost
2008-05-09 07:52 < arcimboldo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumgangsan_Tourist_Region
2008-05-09 07:52 < arcimboldo_> Well, I could predict what would happen if NK opened its borders ...
2008-05-09 07:52 < Aqwis> unusual FA today..
2008-05-09 07:53 < ThePolecat> that guy is pretty badass though
2008-05-09 07:53 < zocky> arcimboldo_, if they weren't closed all along, and even if they were opened now, 10, maybe 20% people would leave, but the vast majority would stay
2008-05-09 07:54 < ThePolecat> Same as in Germany.
2008-05-09 07:54 < arcimboldo_> There are some speculations that the population may have decreased from 23 to 15 million during the last 15 years due to the starvation ...
2008-05-09 07:54 < zocky> some of the emigrees would be disidents, but most would be just people who go abroad to make money and send it home
2008-05-09 07:54 < arcimboldo_> I'm not sure many people would stay, unless the impact of Juche propaganda is that high ...
2008-05-09 07:55 < zocky> the wish to stay at home is that strong
2008-05-09 07:55 < zocky> people don't want to leave home in general
2008-05-09 07:55 < RobJ1981> Home is where the heart is.
2008-05-09 07:55 < ThePolecat> there's a chance that life improves rapidly.
2008-05-09 07:55 < zocky> if they could go to south korea and back whenever they wanted, most wouldn't bother moving
2008-05-09 07:56 < arcimboldo_> NK would be worse than Albania in the early 90s.
2008-05-09 07:56 < arcimboldo_> I think more than 10-20% wanted to leave then ...
2008-05-09 07:56 < ThePolecat> Except that the transition to a non-autark system would be painful indeed.
2008-05-09 07:56 < zocky> i don't think NK is like albania in 1990s, more like in 1980s, before the collapse
2008-05-09 07:56 < ThePolecat> it caused bit of a civil war in Albania, if memory serves.
2008-05-09 07:57 < zocky> ThePolecat, that was because of a pyramid scheme
2008-05-09 07:57 < ThePolecat> yea.
2008-05-09 07:57 < ThePolecat> typical case of shock capitalism
2008-05-09 07:57 < zocky> yep
2008-05-09 07:57 < ThePolecat> or rather shock market economy
2008-05-09 07:58 < zocky> dismantle all the existing systems, and the invisible hand of the market will fix it all
2008-05-09 07:58 < ThePolecat> haha, for large enough definitions of "fix"
2008-05-09 07:58 < zocky> you could destroy german economy that way, let alone albania
2008-05-09 07:59 < ThePolecat> we're seeing that now, what the government sells as successes are essentially jobless growths.
2008-05-09 07:59 < zocky> and it's not as if there's less work
2008-05-09 07:59 < zocky> it's just that the employed people work more
2008-05-09 07:59 < arcimboldo_> Well, I could see hardly anything being worse than the current NK system.
2008-05-09 07:59 < zocky> and the unemployed can't get work
2008-05-09 08:00 < zocky> arcimboldo_, anarchy is worse than the worst dictatorship
2008-05-09 08:00 < zocky> iraq, not to mention somalia, is surely worse than NK
2008-05-09 08:00 < ThePolecat> anarchy is not a credible consequence.
2008-05-09 08:00 < ThePolecat> in NK's case.
2008-05-09 08:00 < arcimboldo_> zocky: See above: There are speculations that the population has decreased from 23 to 15 million due to starvation.
2008-05-09 08:01 < ThePolecat> Plus, if anything came out of Juche, it's discipline
2008-05-09 08:01 < zocky> ThePolecat, depends how things are done
2008-05-09 08:01 < ThePolecat> something greatly amiss in Somalia and Iraq
2008-05-09 08:01 < arcimboldo_> I don't see Iraq or Somalia being worse ...
2008-05-09 08:01 < zocky> arcimboldo_, do you actually believe those speculations?
2008-05-09 08:01 < ThePolecat> Somalia certainly is.
2008-05-09 08:01 < arcimboldo_> NK has some cast system anyway.
2008-05-09 08:02 < arcimboldo_> zocky: The thing is, North Korea is so secluded the there is no reliable information whatsoever ...
2008-05-09 08:02 < zocky> no government can have 1/4 population die without an external war, and survive
2008-05-09 08:02 < arcimboldo_> But all the information that exists says that it is grotesque ...
2008-05-09 08:02 < arcimboldo_> NK also has created a cast system.
2008-05-09 08:03 < arcimboldo_> An if you were not in the cast no. 1 you would hardle be assigned any food if there is a shortage.
2008-05-09 08:03 < ThePolecat> Yep, thank Confucius.
2008-05-09 08:03 < arcimboldo_> hardle -> hardly
2008-05-09 08:03 < zocky> it's impossible to tell, of course, but judging from what the western media said about yugoslavia and USSR at the time, I guesstimate that NK is not much worse than romania in 1980s.
2008-05-09 08:04 < arcimboldo_> The large North Korea factories are closed for several months in a year to prepare for the annual great opera performance for their great leader ....
2008-05-09 08:05 < ThePolecat> zocky: That's not a terribly high bar to jump.
2008-05-09 08:05 < arcimboldo_> zocky: The few people I saw working in the field were working with their bare hands.
2008-05-09 08:05 < arcimboldo_> There was one time I saw an ox cart.
2008-05-09 08:06 < zocky> ThePolecat, i don't know. romania had working education and health systems, people were poor, but generally fed, you didn't get kidnapped or murdered walking down the street, etc.
2008-05-09 08:06 < ThePolecat> Heh... crime management is a forte of repressive regimes, yea.
2008-05-09 08:07 < zocky> well, beats the current situation in iraq or somalia
2008-05-09 08:07 < ThePolecat> No doubt.
2008-05-09 08:07 < zocky> political rights are much easier to give up than security, and when that's the only choice there is, most people will vote for security
2008-05-09 08:07 < ThePolecat> I think NK is worse though.
2008-05-09 08:08 < ThePolecat> Usually true.
2008-05-09 08:08 < ThePolecat> "first comes food, then comes philosophy", as Brecht says.
2008-05-09 08:08 < zocky> yep
2008-05-09 08:09 < zocky> and food comes before security too
2008-05-09 08:10 * ThePolecat is on an EBT high
2008-05-09 08:10 < zocky> if the famine in north korea was that bad that 1/4 of the population would die, I don't think juche propaganda, or the security forces, could stop a revolution
2008-05-09 08:10 < ThePolecat> Brb.
2008-05-09 08:10 < ThePolecat> I think people are far more exhausted than one'd think.
2008-05-09 08:10 < arcimboldo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBT ?
2008-05-09 08:11 < arcimboldo_> zocky: Look at Burma.
2008-05-09 08:11 < arcimboldo_> Or Myanmar.
2008-05-09 08:11 < ThePolecat> English Breakfast Tea.
2008-05-09 08:11 < nsh> Burma
2008-05-09 08:11 < ThePolecat> :-P
2008-05-09 08:11 < zocky> myanmar
2008-05-09 08:11 < nsh> Myanmar is Burma's slave-name
2008-05-09 08:11 < nsh> for want of a better term
2008-05-09 08:11 < zocky> no, it's their own name
2008-05-09 08:11 < nsh> no.
2008-05-09 08:11 < nsh> please read
2008-05-09 08:12 < ThePolecat> Burma is far more moderate, even though Than Shwe is definitely batshit crazy.
2008-05-09 08:12 < Lucifer_Cat> burma = british name.
2008-05-09 08:12 < zocky> is the government of burma represented in the UN?
2008-05-09 08:12 < Aqwis> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnings_before_taxes huh.
2008-05-09 08:12 < arcimboldo_> Certainly.
2008-05-09 08:12 < ThePolecat> Myanmar = Name rejected by Aung San Suu Kyi IIRC.
2008-05-09 08:13 < zocky> ThePolecat, so?
2008-05-09 08:13 < arcimboldo_> Only question is which one but I guess it's the regime which is at the UN.
2008-05-09 08:13 < nsh> zocky, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma#United_Nations
2008-05-09 08:13 < ThePolecat> Maybe a third name is in order.
2008-05-09 08:13 < Lucifer_Cat> just like Bombay
2008-05-09 08:13 < Lucifer_Cat> and India
2008-05-09 08:14 < Lucifer_Cat> though im sure India was called India in europe before they wanted to make us slaves
2008-05-09 08:14 < zocky> india did not change its official name in english
2008-05-09 08:14 < zocky> burma did
2008-05-09 08:15 < zocky> just like upper volta, ivory coast, etc.
2008-05-09 08:15 < ThePolecat> Benin is a very peculiar case.
2008-05-09 08:15 < ThePolecat> Oh wait
2008-05-09 08:16 < zocky> yep
2008-05-09 08:16 < ThePolecat> I mean Burkina Faso
2008-05-09 08:16 < zocky> that was some other coast
2008-05-09 08:16 < ThePolecat> Burkina Faso is landlocked.
2008-05-09 08:16 < ThePolecat> :_D
2008-05-09 08:16 < arcimboldo_> Cote d'Ivoire is just the French version of the same name.
2008-05-09 08:16 < zocky> ThePolecat, benin was also "invented", i.e. it was named after a former empire that wasn't actually in the current benin
2008-05-09 08:16 < ThePolecat> yep
2008-05-09 08:16 < arcimboldo_> There's Benin City.
2008-05-09 08:17 < arcimboldo_> Which is in Nigeria
2008-05-09 08:17 < zocky> arcimboldo_, yes, but they adopted is as their official name in english, and that's what everybody uses now
2008-05-09 08:17 < arcimboldo_> I know, and the government "forbade" to translate that name into any other language.
2008-05-09 08:18 < ThePolecat> that was that very young president, wannit.
2008-05-09 08:18 < arcimboldo_> So even in Germany the official name is now "Cote d`Ivoire" and the people are "Ivorer".
2008-05-09 08:18 < zocky> the argument that burma is the english name for that land and should thus be used for the country is rational, but week
2008-05-09 08:18 < ThePolecat> most people say Elfenbeinküste.
2008-05-09 08:18 < arcimboldo_> But not the ministry of foreign affairs.
2008-05-09 08:19 * ThePolecat calls Thailand Siam now that it has an authoritarian government
2008-05-09 08:19 < zocky> there are very few, if any, examples of that being the decisive arguments, and plenty of counterexamples
2008-05-09 08:19 < arcimboldo_> ouch
2008-05-09 08:19 < zocky> yep, siam being the most obvious and relevant counterexample
2008-05-09 08:19 < ThePolecat> Jk.
2008-05-09 08:19 < arcimboldo_> Sri Lanka -> Ceylon?
2008-05-09 08:19 < zocky> cambodia -> campuchea -> cambodia
2008-05-09 08:19 < ThePolecat> Sri Lanka's government is merely racist.
2008-05-09 08:20 < JessicaTaylor> night night, see you guys and gals later
2008-05-09 08:20 < ThePolecat> Kampuchea is the name Pol Pot used?
2008-05-09 08:20 < zocky> I think so
2008-05-09 08:20 * ThePolecat insists on using Urundi
2008-05-09 08:20 < arcimboldo_> I thought Kampuchea was the name during Vietnamese domination
2008-05-09 08:20 < NonvocalScream> any admins about?
2008-05-09 08:20 < arcimboldo_> Congo -> Zaire -> Congo
2008-05-09 08:21 < zocky> anyway, countries are always called what they say they're called, and when they change their official name, the rest of the word obliges
2008-05-09 08:21 * ThePolecat forgot the CAR name
2008-05-09 08:21 < zocky> the whole burma thing is a novel form of british whining
2008-05-09 08:21 < arcimboldo_> central african empire?
2008-05-09 08:21 < ThePolecat> zocky: Eternally Neutral Republic of Turkmenistan?
2008-05-09 08:22 < zocky> ThePolecat, yes, like federal republic of germany
2008-05-09 08:22 < Lucifer_Cat> heh
2008-05-09 08:22 < zocky> not to mention german democratic republic :)
2008-05-09 08:22 < ThePolecat> Well, no, there was an awesome name used by the French
2008-05-09 08:22 < Lucifer_Cat> it would be funny if UN refused sometime
2008-05-09 08:23 < ThePolecat> Oubangi-Chari
2008-05-09 08:23 < arcimboldo_> Democratic People's Republic always bothers me ... it's like the "People-ruled people's thing of the people"
2008-05-09 08:23 < zocky> napoleon bokassa I
2008-05-09 08:23 < Lucifer_Cat> "we know you by that damn name and we will keep using that... moving to a new name is toomuch goddamn trouble"
2008-05-09 08:23 < ThePolecat> "people's republic" is a Rousseauian democracy
2008-05-09 08:23 < Lucifer_Cat> roozzo
2008-05-09 08:24 < ThePolecat> "the people's will, of which there is only one and it's always known"
2008-05-09 08:24 < Lucifer_Cat> later, gator
2008-05-09 08:24 < ThePolecat> Lucifer_Cat: Some countries might troll by changing name every week
2008-05-09 08:24 < zocky> on a tangent, I figured out the other day that "court" and "yard" are two forms of the same root, so "courtyard" = "courtcourt" ="yardyard"
2008-05-09 08:25 < ThePolecat> there are many etymological doublings
2008-05-09 08:25 < arcimboldo_> There are many river names which are composed of the word "river" originating from different languages.
2008-05-09 08:25 < ThePolecat> like the word "Käsekasten"
2008-05-09 08:25 < arcimboldo_> Some are "river river river river"
2008-05-09 08:25 < ThePolecat> "cheese box"
2008-05-09 08:26 < zocky> yeah, like child-r-en = child-s-s
2008-05-09 08:26 < ThePolecat> "Little Big Horn" has always intrigued me.
2008-05-09 08:26 < Kofiz> How do I make Excel/Openoffice not display "sheet 1" and "page 1" when I print :/
2008-05-09 08:26 < zocky> and when people say "childrens", that's "child-s-s-s", a triple plural
2008-05-09 08:27 < zocky> Kofiz, somewhere, probably in page setup or something, there are headers and footers
2008-05-09 08:27 < ThePolecat> Brb.
2008-05-09 08:28 < Kofiz> oh ok I just turned them off thanks
2008-05-09 08:30 < Kofiz> i have this convoluted approach on how to work on articles and it involves printing out fancy spreadsheets >_>
2008-05-09 08:31 < zocky> damn awb people
2008-05-09 08:32 < zocky> [[Long-term stability]] gets edited way to often now
2008-05-09 08:32 < Kofiz> o_O
2008-05-09 08:32 < zocky> it used to be the oldest unchanged article on wikipedia for quite some time
2008-05-09 08:32 < Kofiz> oh I thought that was like an article about relationships
2008-05-09 08:33 < Kofiz> sorry that wasn't funny
2008-05-09 08:34 < arcimboldo_> Ubuntu has restored my trust in Linux ...
2008-05-09 08:34 < zocky> Special:Ancientpages says: The following information is cached, and was last updated 03:54, 29 December 2006.
2008-05-09 08:34 < zocky> arcimboldo_, have you upgraded to 8.04?
2008-05-09 08:35 < arcimboldo_> I've installed Ubuntu for the first time in that version.
2008-05-09 08:35 < arcimboldo_> I had more and more lost my fight with configurations in SuSE ....
2008-05-09 08:35 < zocky> i need to upgrade, but I spent so much time setting up the graphic card right that I'm worried
2008-05-09 08:36 < zocky> gutsy didn't like my hardware combo at all
2008-05-09 08:36 < arcimboldo_> I had tried the previous version a couple of months ago but apparently it could not handle my hardware yet ....
2008-05-09 08:36 < zocky> I have an onboard nvidia card which I don't use, and a pcie ati card which I do use
2008-05-09 08:36 < arcimboldo_> zocky: So a new version should be much more likely to handle your hardward more efficiently.
2008-05-09 08:37 < zocky> hopefully
2008-05-09 08:37 < zocky> meh, what the hell
2008-05-09 08:37 < zocky> let's see what happens
2008-05-09 08:40 < arcimboldo_> now I can play freeciv and be online at the same time again.
2008-05-09 08:40 < zocky> 77 packages are going to be removed, 197 new packages are going to be installed, 1136 packages are going to be upgraded
2008-05-09 08:44 < zocky> btw, what is happenning with sri lanka? suddenly everybody is totally supporting the government, and tigers are getting arrested abroad.
2008-05-09 08:45 < zocky> doesn't india somewhat support LTTE, as in they wouldn't like to see them totally defeated?
2008-05-09 08:45 < arcimboldo_> Didn't the tigers blow up Rajiv Gandhi?
2008-05-09 08:45 < Gambit> O_O
2008-05-09 08:45 < arcimboldo_> I'de be suprised if India were that supportive
2008-05-09 08:45 < zocky> they did
2008-05-09 08:46 < zocky> but they're still tamils
2008-05-09 08:46 < zocky> they apologized for killing rajiv
2008-05-09 08:47 < Gambit> yeah Gandhi's in India just blow up :(
2008-05-09 08:47 < zocky> and there's a bunch of news stories about the tigers being trained ans whatnot in india
2008-05-09 08:48 < zocky> how many tamils are there in india?
2008-05-09 08:48 < Gambit> most in TamilNadu
2008-05-09 08:48 < Gambit> millions
2008-05-09 08:48 < zocky> 60 million
2008-05-09 08:49 < zocky> i don't think india can let tamils lose the war in sri lanka, if it's perceived as an ethnic war
2008-05-09 08:50 < zocky> are there any tamils in sri lankan government?
2008-05-09 08:51 < Gambit> most definitely
2008-05-09 08:52 < zocky> enough to present the war as a common effort against extremist resurrection?
2008-05-09 08:55 < Gambit> O_O
2008-05-09 08:56 < zocky> i only found PLOTE as a tamil organization that supports the government
2008-05-09 08:56 < zocky> but they seem to be insignificant now
2008-05-09 08:59 < zocky> the only significant tamil party in sri lankan parliament seems to be the tamil nation alliance, which is considered a proxy of LTTE
2008-05-09 09:00 < gwern> http://wondermark.com/w/workflyer.gif <-- a burning question I find myself unable to answer in the affirmative
2008-05-09 09:04 < Gambit> Martinp23, you now haz cloak :O
2008-05-09 09:06 < Gambit> :(
2008-05-09 09:18 < gwern> hm. so the final returns from indiana are in
2008-05-09 09:18 < gwern> 50.4% to 49.6%
2008-05-09 09:19 < gwern> less than 1% before rounding
2008-05-09 09:41 < zocky> ThePolecat, is triktrak or tricktrack or whatever == backgammon?