freenode #wikipedia

2008-04-13 00:36 < Fennec> Golbez: so I'm told
2008-04-13 00:37 < Coldstart> And you think that would stop the US govt from being corrupt?
2008-04-13 00:37 < White_Cat> Coldstart thats easy
2008-04-13 00:37 < Coldstart> You're ignoring the role of geopolitics
2008-04-13 00:37 < White_Cat> more oversight
2008-04-13 00:37 < White_Cat> and transparancy
2008-04-13 00:37 < Coldstart> In shaping how a country behaves
2008-04-13 00:37 < zocky> Coldstart, i don't know, but if you didn't have extremely rich people who can control the government for their own profit, then maybe the government wouldn't be working for their profit against the interests of the people?
2008-04-13 00:37 < Golbez> guys guys guys, there's only one way to solve this problem: replace all cars with boxes of ramen noodles. then, as we enter one massive worldwide MSG coma, we can sing kumbaya and become one.
2008-04-13 00:37 < White_Cat> Japan probably has the highest level of bribing
2008-04-13 00:37 < White_Cat> but the bribe is actualy documented
2008-04-13 00:38 < Coldstart> In every country the rich and powerful control the govenment
2008-04-13 00:38 < White_Cat> so it isnt really a bribe
2008-04-13 00:38 < zocky> it's not as if US is acting rationally
2008-04-13 00:38 < nokmar> but MSG isn't bad.
2008-04-13 00:38 < zocky> Coldstart, no they don't
2008-04-13 00:38 < zocky> Coldstart, that's just you having trouble to imagine a different system than yours
2008-04-13 00:38 * Mike_H NP: Alicia Keys - No One (2007)
2008-04-13 00:38 < Golbez> nokmar- i don't care what the studies say, it has an effect on me. =p or something in the food does.
2008-04-13 00:38 < Coldstart> Well if they don't that means they're not trying
2008-04-13 00:38 < Fennec> the US role in world politics is fickle, since the administration changes as often as it does
2008-04-13 00:39 < Golbez> the US needs to regain the standing and honor it had in the world prior to the late issues
2008-04-13 00:39 < White_Cat> Fennec everything changes
2008-04-13 00:39 < Coldstart> The US is just unfortunatly too powerful and is using that power badly
2008-04-13 00:39 * Ceiling_Cat watches Coldstart
2008-04-13 00:39 < zocky> Coldstart, also, the other people are not and don't feel powerless, so the rich and powerful can't simply ignore everybody else
2008-04-13 00:39 < Coldstart> Within 50 years hopefully it will be cut down to size
2008-04-13 00:39 < Coldstart> politically speaking
2008-04-13 00:39 < White_Cat> Golbez US got respect for its involvement in ww1
2008-04-13 00:39 < Golbez> we are the biggest and brightest and best and thus have a responsibility to the rest of the world. not by throwing money at dictators, but by actually working to help things.
2008-04-13 00:39 < White_Cat> Golbez US got fear for its involvement in ww2
2008-04-13 00:39 < zocky> no, you don't have any responsibility
2008-04-13 00:39 < zocky> you don't have a mission
2008-04-13 00:39 < zocky> you don't have a manifest destiny
2008-04-13 00:39 < White_Cat> Golbez US lost both fear and respect after vietnam
2008-04-13 00:39 < zocky> you just need to leave the rest of the world alone
2008-04-13 00:40 < Golbez> for example, when there was the tsunami, we were able to send our ships in first, with needed supplies and personnel
2008-04-13 00:40 < White_Cat> it was a downhil after vietnam
2008-04-13 00:40 < White_Cat> with iraq it had taken yet another nosedive
2008-04-13 00:40 < Coldstart> vietnam was just a proxy war with the soviet union and china
2008-04-13 00:40 < Golbez> it used to be that the world quietly thanked us for such things. now they fear us. i prefer the former.
2008-04-13 00:40 < zocky> Golbez, yes, to all the countries that didn't have powerful enough navies to tell your ships to not get close to their coasts
2008-04-13 00:40 < Coldstart> we couldn't win because those countries were sending arms to the vietnamese
2008-04-13 00:40 < White_Cat> Golbez US invovement in 2004 tsunami was actualy mild
2008-04-13 00:40 < Coldstart> and we couldn't stop the arms transfers because that would lead to a huge war againt the ussr and/or china
2008-04-13 00:41 < White_Cat> the disaster was far too vast
2008-04-13 00:41 < Golbez> White_Cat- more mild than it would have been had the world not disliked us, yes
2008-04-13 00:41 < White_Cat> Golbez Katrina hurt world image of the US
2008-04-13 00:41 < Golbez> that it did
2008-04-13 00:41 < White_Cat> a country that cant even look after their own people
2008-04-13 00:41 < White_Cat> what good would it do for us?
2008-04-13 00:41 < zocky> it's all small change
2008-04-13 00:42 < White_Cat> look how incapable they are in Iraq against an enemy barely armed.
2008-04-13 00:42 < White_Cat> thats the discussion aorund the planet
2008-04-13 00:42 < Coldstart> well you can't really fight a war aginst an enemy that shoots a rpg from cover and runs away
2008-04-13 00:42 < zocky> the US was disliked for meddling in other countries and for the missionary tone it's been using in international politics at least since WWII, but it was seen as just another big power protecting its interests.
2008-04-13 00:42 < Coldstart> or who blows themselves up right next to you
2008-04-13 00:42 < zocky> it all changed with iraq
2008-04-13 00:42 < White_Cat> Golbez after Iraq few people fear the US armed forces
2008-04-13 00:42 < Golbez> i'm not exactly a warmonger but i'm not an isolationist either. we have a vast amount of the world's resources at our disposal, we can use that for good, both at home and in some cases abroad. Not forced, not thrown, but quietly offered in sensible ways.
2008-04-13 00:42 < Coldstart> its asymmetric war
2008-04-13 00:43 < White_Cat> since US right now lacks any kind of military capability to wage an effective war
2008-04-13 00:43 < Fennec> US can still kick behinds with symmetric war.
2008-04-13 00:43 < Golbez> Coldstart- sure you can - run after him and shoot him.
2008-04-13 00:43 < White_Cat> Fennec not quite
2008-04-13 00:43 < White_Cat> US forces are busy
2008-04-13 00:43 < Fennec> well, if they're not overdeployed in Iraq
2008-04-13 00:43 < White_Cat> Fennec and they are tired
2008-04-13 00:43 < Coldstart> Golbez : I'm sure they have ways of getting away
2008-04-13 00:43 < White_Cat> and low on morale right now
2008-04-13 00:43 < Coldstart> I am unfamiliar with insurgency tactics
2008-04-13 00:43 < Golbez> Coldstart- i'm sure we have ways of chasing
2008-04-13 00:43 < Fennec> White_Cat: I don't mean at-the-instant so much
2008-04-13 00:43 < White_Cat> Fennec but you would be right
2008-04-13 00:43 < Coldstart> Well then why are there still bombings
2008-04-13 00:44 < White_Cat> US has a lot of planes and bombs
2008-04-13 00:44 < Fennec> White_Cat: I mean, the capabilities are better than for occupying Iraq in general. yes.
2008-04-13 00:44 < Coldstart> Obviously they have ways to escape and attack again
2008-04-13 00:44 < White_Cat> Fennec but say in an Iran-US war next year
2008-04-13 00:44 < White_Cat> US would think twice now
2008-04-13 00:44 < Coldstart> And what is the defense against a suicide attack
2008-04-13 00:44 < Golbez> Coldstart- because they have a lot of people, and some get away. my point is, you can't simply say 'whoops, they're using asymmetric warfare, we lose!'
2008-04-13 00:44 < White_Cat> had US not invade Iraq in the first place US troops would be more combat ready
2008-04-13 00:44 < zocky> all I know is that US military is not as much stronger than Iraqis, as German army was stronger than our local resistance here in WWII
2008-04-13 00:44 < Golbez> had the US not invaded Iraq in the first place, Afghanistan would be much better off.
2008-04-13 00:44 < Coldstart> No I'm saying you can't defend against those tactics, particularly suicide tactics
2008-04-13 00:45 < zocky> we couldn't have actually won without the allies, but germans could never kill the resistance
2008-04-13 00:45 < White_Cat> Golbez right
2008-04-13 00:45 < Fennec> the US army is also politically paralyzed to some extent
2008-04-13 00:45 < Golbez> zocky- you can never kill a resistance. it has to want to stop.
2008-04-13 00:45 < Coldstart> Exactly
2008-04-13 00:45 < White_Cat> Golbez I disagree
2008-04-13 00:45 < White_Cat> you can mass exterminate :)
2008-04-13 00:45 < Coldstart> We can't commit mass murder
2008-04-13 00:45 < White_Cat> like how US did with japan
2008-04-13 00:45 < Coldstart> It would be a political disaster
2008-04-13 00:46 < Golbez> we didn't mass exterminate at all, what are you talking about
2008-04-13 00:46 < White_Cat> Golbez mass exterminate cities
2008-04-13 00:46 < nokmar> we just killed a lot of people
2008-04-13 00:46 < White_Cat> and continue until resistance stop :)
2008-04-13 00:46 < Golbez> we destroyed cities, yes
2008-04-13 00:46 < zocky> Golbez, the end result is the same
2008-04-13 00:46 < Golbez> just like britain and germany and japan did
2008-04-13 00:46 < Coldstart> Sure you could kill all the Iraqis and that would end the insurgency. But we can't just murder a country
2008-04-13 00:46 < Golbez> none of those count as 'extermination'
2008-04-13 00:46 < nokmar> people, extermination is different
2008-04-13 00:46 < Coldstart> There are consequences to taking such actions
2008-04-13 00:46 < nokmar> extermination is destroying a certain demographic
2008-04-13 00:46 < White_Cat> Coldstart as of now over a million civilians died in iraq
2008-04-13 00:46 < nokmar> we just nuked a city, not a people
2008-04-13 00:46 < zocky> Golbez, they fought against enemies of roughly the same strength
2008-04-13 00:47 < Coldstart> White_Cat I'm aware of the numbers
2008-04-13 00:47 < White_Cat> over a million civilians that would not have died under saddams rule
2008-04-13 00:47 < Coldstart> You're missing the point
2008-04-13 00:47 < Coldstart> I was saying we can't kill all of them
2008-04-13 00:47 < White_Cat> Coldstart you cant kill some of them either
2008-04-13 00:47 < Coldstart> You seem to think I support the war. I don't.
2008-04-13 00:47 < Golbez> zocky- hm?
2008-04-13 00:47 < White_Cat> Coldstart I did not imply that
2008-04-13 00:47 < Coldstart> Yes you did
2008-04-13 00:47 < White_Cat> winning in iraq is not so hard actualy
2008-04-13 00:47 < Coldstart> because your line of reasoning appears to be that I support killing 1 million of them
2008-04-13 00:47 < White_Cat> you need good relations with all the bordering nations
2008-04-13 00:48 < zocky> Golbez, they were fighting a war for survival. bombing or not bombing falluja has 0 effect on survival of US
2008-04-13 00:48 < Coldstart> also I believe that those numbers include people killed by the insurgency
2008-04-13 00:48 < White_Cat> right now US is hated by all bordering nations of iraq
2008-04-13 00:48 < Coldstart> fwiw
2008-04-13 00:48 < White_Cat> excluding quwait
2008-04-13 00:48 < Golbez> zocky- right, but ... i think you're confused
2008-04-13 00:48 < Golbez> let me start oveR:
2008-04-13 00:48 < Golbez> zocky- you can never kill a resistance. it has to want to stop.
2008-04-13 00:48 < Golbez> and continue from there.
2008-04-13 00:48 < White_Cat> The country where US is favored the least happens to be the country bordering Iraq
2008-04-13 00:48 < Fennec> I think the point was that we have the capabilities to exterminate all Iraquis or something like that, and such a thing would disable any resistance.
2008-04-13 00:48 < Coldstart> Yes
2008-04-13 00:49 < Coldstart> But it would be murder
2008-04-13 00:49 < Golbez> Fennec- but that's not something we do
2008-04-13 00:49 < Golbez> or would do
2008-04-13 00:49 < zocky> Golbez, all I'm saying is that firebombing dresden was not called extermination because of the kind of war that was going on.
2008-04-13 00:49 < Fennec> so it is theoretically possible.
2008-04-13 00:49 < Golbez> zocky- right... but nor was hiroshima or nagasaki or toyko
2008-04-13 00:49 < Golbez> nor is anything we're doing in baghdad
2008-04-13 00:49 < Golbez> er, iraq
2008-04-13 00:49 < Golbez> so again i fail to see what your point is, i think you got some conversation threads mixed up
2008-04-13 00:49 < Coldstart> Look its really simple
2008-04-13 00:49 < Coldstart> 1)The us govt is corrupt
2008-04-13 00:50 < Coldstart> 2)The war was a mistake and illegal
2008-04-13 00:50 < Coldstart> 3)history sucks
2008-04-13 00:50 < nokmar> I thought there was ##politics?
2008-04-13 00:50 < Coldstart> There, does that cover it all
2008-04-13 00:50 < White_Cat> nope
2008-04-13 00:50 < White_Cat> Coldstart all of that is irrelevant
2008-04-13 00:50 < Golbez> nokmar- no harm in a few discussions here
2008-04-13 00:50 < Coldstart> ok whats your points?
2008-04-13 00:50 < White_Cat> Coldstart a corrupt gov can win wars
2008-04-13 00:51 < White_Cat> mistakes and illegal wars can be won
2008-04-13 00:51 < Coldstart> I don't understand the way your mind works
2008-04-13 00:51 < Golbez> just look at the soviet union
2008-04-13 00:51 < Coldstart> who cares if they win
2008-04-13 00:51 < Coldstart> it's still wrong
2008-04-13 00:51 < zocky> Golbez, my point is that dresden, hiroshima, etc. was not called mass extermination only because of the kind of war that was going on at the time. OTOH, with iraq presenting 0 threat to US, bombing iraqi cities could be called mass extermination.
2008-04-13 00:51 < White_Cat> hisory is irrelevant
2008-04-13 00:51 < Lubaf> I AM IRON MAN!
2008-04-13 00:51 < Fennec> 1) is true to some extent. All governments are corrupt to some extent. 2) is true that it was probably a bad idea, but the 'legality' of war is not clear and in some ways a laughable notion. 3) whatever. :)
2008-04-13 00:51 < Golbez> zocky- but no one's suggesting destroying the cities, which again makes me think you got some threads mixed up.
2008-04-13 00:51 < Golbez> except for some pedantic "BUT YOU CAN DESTROY THE RESISTANCE" argument.
2008-04-13 00:51 < Fennec> Lubaf: do you have an iron lung?
2008-04-13 00:51 < zocky> Golbez, ah, but cities have been destroyed
2008-04-13 00:52 < Coldstart> I would think destroying Sadr City could have some impact on the resistance
2008-04-13 00:52 < Lubaf> Dun dun dun dun dun dun, dun na na na na na na nun nu na!
2008-04-13 00:52 < Coldstart> But not the whole country
2008-04-13 00:52 < Golbez> zocky- but they ... didn't destroy the resista... you know what, never mind, you have no interest in moving on beyond your misconceptions about the discussion.
2008-04-13 00:52 < White_Cat> Sadr City?
2008-04-13 00:52 < Coldstart> And it would only affect the sadr faction
2008-04-13 00:52 < Coldstart> not the bathists or al quaeda
2008-04-13 00:52 < Golbez> I tried 3 times to correct you but you clearly enjoy the fight more than having a discussion.
2008-04-13 00:52 < Fennec> rock 'em sock 'em IRC POLITICAL ARGUMENT
2008-04-13 00:52 < zocky> Golbez, hey, I'm not fighting :)
2008-04-13 00:52 < zocky> whatever gave you that idea?
2008-04-13 00:52 < Golbez> Coldstart- it would wound the resistance, it would not end it, there are Sadrists all over the country.
2008-04-13 00:52 < Coldstart> White Cat : google it
2008-04-13 00:52 < zocky> i'm just debating stuff
2008-04-13 00:53 < Golbez> zocky- your continued arguing with me about something I didn't bloody say, it's annoying.
2008-04-13 00:53 < White_Cat> Coldstart I know what it is
2008-04-13 00:53 < Coldstart> Golbez : yeah but it would have an impact
2008-04-13 00:53 < White_Cat> it is a neighborhoud in baghdad
2008-04-13 00:53 < Coldstart> <White_Cat> Sadr City?
2008-04-13 00:53 < Golbez> I tried three times to correct you, you don't care, so apparently you just enjoy badgering people for no reason.
2008-04-13 00:53 < Coldstart> that didn't give me the impression you knew what it was
2008-04-13 00:53 < White_Cat> I dont see what affect demolutioning it has
2008-04-13 00:53 < Coldstart> because its a symbol
2008-04-13 00:54 < Coldstart> and if you destroy the enemies symbols
2008-04-13 00:54 < zocky> Golbez, it started from "<Golbez> we didn't mass exterminate at all, what are you talking about"
2008-04-13 00:54 < Coldstart> you demoralize them
2008-04-13 00:54 < Golbez> zocky- I was referring to World War 2, yes.
2008-04-13 00:54 < Golbez> That was in response to <White_Cat> like how US did with japan
2008-04-13 00:54 < Coldstart> You clearly know nothing about the psychological aspects of warfare
2008-04-13 00:54 < Golbez> which means - as I pointed out three times - you got conversation threads mixed up.
2008-04-13 00:54 < zocky> Golbez, ah, I mixed that up then... sorry
2008-04-13 00:54 < Golbez> accepted
2008-04-13 00:54 < White_Cat> Golbez US wants to fix their image
2008-04-13 00:54 < White_Cat> on ww2 people were far too distracted
2008-04-13 00:55 < Golbez> Coldstart- or, you embolden them
2008-04-13 00:55 < White_Cat> people were ready to accept peace of any kind
2008-04-13 00:55 < Coldstart> I doubt it
2008-04-13 00:55 < Golbez> it can go either way sometimes
2008-04-13 00:55 < Coldstart> Because we could just do something worse
2008-04-13 00:55 < Coldstart> The only thing respected in this sort of situation is force
2008-04-13 00:55 < White_Cat> Coldstart I dont think so
2008-04-13 00:55 < Coldstart> ok
2008-04-13 00:55 < Coldstart> you're wrong btw
2008-04-13 00:55 < White_Cat> if you use nuclear bombs in iraq
2008-04-13 00:55 < White_Cat> what do you think iran will do?
2008-04-13 00:55 < Coldstart> who said anything about nuclear bombs
2008-04-13 00:55 < Coldstart> you're silly
2008-04-13 00:56 < White_Cat> I am not silly
2008-04-13 00:56 < Coldstart> yes you are
2008-04-13 00:56 < White_Cat> no
2008-04-13 00:56 < Coldstart> yews
2008-04-13 00:56 < Coldstart> yes
2008-04-13 00:56 < Rinn> I AM SILLY!
2008-04-13 00:56 < White_Cat> rinn is silly
2008-04-13 00:56 < White_Cat> I am not
2008-04-13 00:56 < zocky> tactical nukes were mentioned as a part of the plan to bomb iran
2008-04-13 00:56 < Coldstart> yes because you bring out this silly nuclear bomb issue
2008-04-13 00:56 < Coldstart> that I never even discussed
2008-04-13 00:56 < zocky> leaked from the white house, iirc
2008-04-13 00:56 < White_Cat> zocky right
2008-04-13 00:56 < White_Cat> but they decided not to
2008-04-13 00:56 < White_Cat> its too close to russia
2008-04-13 00:57 < Golbez> i have no problem with an official discussion of the use of tactical nukes, no problem in investigating all of your strategies
2008-04-13 00:58 < Coldstart> if we escalate the war to nuclear weapons, we greatly increase the risk a nuclear weapon will be used against us
2008-04-13 00:58 < Lubaf> Rinn: You're not listening to what I'm listening to.
2008-04-13 00:58 < Lubaf> ROCK!
2008-04-13 00:58 < zocky> imo, it's just pressure
2008-04-13 00:58 < Coldstart> so that is not an option
2008-04-13 00:58 < Rinn> Does Megaman X 2 music count as rock?
2008-04-13 00:58 < Golbez> yes
2008-04-13 00:58 * Rinn rocks out
2008-04-13 00:58 < zocky> i don't think americans would dare use a nuke on a country that's not completely weak and irrelevant
2008-04-13 00:58 < White_Cat> zocky they can dare
2008-04-13 00:58 < zocky> or anybody else, of course
2008-04-13 00:58 < White_Cat> they use the MOAB
2008-04-13 00:58 < Coldstart> Like I said fear that we would be nuked would keep us from nuking
2008-04-13 00:59 < Lubaf> Rinn: I'm a cowboy / on a steel horse I ride...
2008-04-13 00:59 < White_Cat> do you have any idea what the yield of MOAB is?
2008-04-13 00:59 < zocky> you wouldn't be nuked if you nuked iran
2008-04-13 00:59 < Coldstart> Sure we could
2008-04-13 00:59 < Coldstart> for revenge
2008-04-13 00:59 < zocky> but you would have bad terrorism at home, plus your embassies around the world would burn
2008-04-13 00:59 < yonkeltron> if i wanted to run some analysis on wikipedia, would it be possible for me to get a full text dump of things?
2008-04-13 00:59 < Golbez> a MOAB has a specialized use
2008-04-13 00:59 < zocky> Coldstart, by whom?
2008-04-13 00:59 < Coldstart> anybody with a nuke
2008-04-13 00:59 < Coldstart> duh
2008-04-13 00:59 < Coldstart> who was mad about it
2008-04-13 01:00 < zocky> nobody with a nuke is mad about to attack US
2008-04-13 01:00 < zocky> that would be a suicide
2008-04-13 01:00 < Coldstart> maybe they want suicide
2008-04-13 01:00 < Golbez> Coldstart- why would random people nuke the US if we nuked Iran?
2008-04-13 01:00 < zocky> *mad enough
2008-04-13 01:00 * Lubaf rocks out acoustically .
2008-04-13 01:00 < White_Cat> Blast radius is 450 feet (137.61m, 150 yards), though the massive shockwave created by the air burst is said to be able to destroy an area as large as nine city blocks.
2008-04-13 01:00 < Coldstart> you think al qaeda isn't trying to get a nuke
2008-04-13 01:00 < Coldstart> what about some other group
2008-04-13 01:00 < arcimboldo_> yonkeltron: Not sure about text dumps of the English Wikipedia
2008-04-13 01:00 < zocky> Coldstart, you have strange ideas about forinners, you know that?
2008-04-13 01:00 < Coldstart> that we don't know about
2008-04-13 01:00 < Golbez> do France, the UK, Russia, China, India, or Pakistan strike you as particularly suicidal governments?
2008-04-13 01:00 < Coldstart> when did I say anything about all foreigners
2008-04-13 01:00 < White_Cat> Coldstart I actualy do not believe Al-Quida seeks a nuclear bomb
2008-04-13 01:00 < Coldstart> Jesus you are a moron
2008-04-13 01:00 < Coldstart> Ok
2008-04-13 01:00 < Golbez> Coldstart- if al qaeda had one, they certainly wouldn't wait til we fired first. =p
2008-04-13 01:01 < Coldstart> You're wrong
2008-04-13 01:01 < White_Cat> nukes are far too heavy and clumsy to be delivered
2008-04-13 01:01 < Coldstart> that's true also Golbez
2008-04-13 01:01 < Golbez> also, calm your language please
2008-04-13 01:01 < arcimboldo_> yonkeltron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
2008-04-13 01:01 < zocky> Coldstart, why would ANYBODY do something as suicidal as nuking america?
2008-04-13 01:01 < Lubaf> Wanted (wanted) / Dead or very dead...
2008-04-13 01:01 < White_Cat> a bilogical weapon would be more useful
2008-04-13 01:01 < Coldstart> but us nukiing someone would raise the changes I believ
2008-04-13 01:01 < Coldstart> e
2008-04-13 01:01 < zocky> White_Cat, biological weapons are useless
2008-04-13 01:01 < Golbez> it would increase the chances of a wider conflict
2008-04-13 01:01 < White_Cat> zocky really?
2008-04-13 01:01 < zocky> and terrorists don't have nukes
2008-04-13 01:01 < Golbez> but in itself would not increase the chances of us being nuked
2008-04-13 01:01 < Lubaf> Eh. One of the possible and logical reactions to a nuke in the US would be the nuking of the Dome of the Rock.
2008-04-13 01:01 < Coldstart> Ok Golbez
2008-04-13 01:01 < Coldstart> you're wrong also
2008-04-13 01:02 < Golbez> thanks
2008-04-13 01:02 < Coldstart> no
2008-04-13 01:02 < Coldstart> problem
2008-04-13 01:02 < White_Cat> zocky would you prefer a chemical biological or nuclear WMDs if you were a terrorist?
2008-04-13 01:02 < zocky> White_Cat, so the story goes at least. it's easy to produce them, it's very hard to deliver them in a useful way
2008-04-13 01:02 < Lubaf> White_Cat: Chemical, actually.
2008-04-13 01:02 < White_Cat> Lubaf you wont be able to cause an epidemic
2008-04-13 01:02 < White_Cat> and devices can detect it
2008-04-13 01:02 < zocky> White_Cat, terrorists can't get nukes, and bilogical weapons are useless, so chemistry
2008-04-13 01:02 < Lubaf> White_Cat: Yes, but less chance of backfiring if you go chemical.
2008-04-13 01:02 < zocky> you won't be able to cause an epidemic anyway
2008-04-13 01:03 < White_Cat> Lubaf perhaps
2008-04-13 01:03 < White_Cat> zocky I dont know
2008-04-13 01:03 < White_Cat> have you ever been to the subway?
2008-04-13 01:03 < Golbez> if I were a terrorist? Biological/chemical, something I can put into the water supply.
2008-04-13 01:03 < zocky> White_Cat, it's not as easy as it sounds
2008-04-13 01:03 < yonkeltron> arcimboldo_: basically, i want to measure article connectedness
2008-04-13 01:03 < White_Cat> infect those people with a bacteria that stays dormant for 48 hours
2008-04-13 01:03 < Lubaf> White_Cat: Really hard to do.
2008-04-13 01:03 < zocky> White_Cat, and you go to the bacteria shop to buy one that can do that?
2008-04-13 01:04 < Lubaf> And very unlikely to work in the first world.
2008-04-13 01:04 < White_Cat> zocky no but I am sure the russians can sell it
2008-04-13 01:04 < zocky> and also is good at infecting other people, and actually incapacitates them?
2008-04-13 01:04 < Golbez> Germs R Us
2008-04-13 01:04 < White_Cat> should US nuke people
2008-04-13 01:04 < Lubaf> I'm just going to leave this.
2008-04-13 01:04 < Lubaf> And ask about the weather where you are.
2008-04-13 01:05 < Lubaf> Is it hot?
2008-04-13 01:05 < Lubaf> Cold?
2008-04-13 01:05 < arcimboldo_> yonkeltron: You might try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29
2008-04-13 01:05 < Lubaf> Wet?
2008-04-13 01:05 < Lubaf> Dry?
2008-04-13 01:05 < White_Cat> Lubaf it is both hot cold wet and dry
2008-04-13 01:05 < Lubaf> Slutty?
2008-04-13 01:05 < Lubaf> Prim and proper?
2008-04-13 01:05 < Lubaf> Anal?
2008-04-13 01:05 < Lubaf> Oral?
2008-04-13 01:05 < White_Cat> Lubaf you are the slutty one :)
2008-04-13 01:05 < zocky> White_Cat, you can either start an epidemic like smallpox, which will kill several dozen people and then be suppressed, or you can start an epidemic like the spanish flu, which you can't control and will kill both enemies and allies
2008-04-13 01:05 < arcimboldo_> Oh, I see the discussion topic has changed.
2008-04-13 01:05 < White_Cat> zocky right
2008-04-13 01:06 < White_Cat> either way the objective of terrorists is to terrorise
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> God?
2008-04-13 01:06 < White_Cat> not win
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> Devil?
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> Jack Thompson?
2008-04-13 01:06 < Coldstart> terrorism is a political tactic more than a military one
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> Sanity?
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> Red?
2008-04-13 01:06 < zocky> White_Cat, ah, but if you want to terrorize you can't be a real threat
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> Blue?
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> Green?
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> Yellow?
2008-04-13 01:06 < Coldstart> the idea is to kill the resolve of the government by killing
2008-04-13 01:06 < White_Cat> zocky right
2008-04-13 01:06 < Coldstart> that's why they love killing news reporters
2008-04-13 01:06 < White_Cat> but the panic of the people is the real threat here
2008-04-13 01:06 < zocky> if you're an actual threat, the government will be forced to deal with you rationally
2008-04-13 01:06 < Coldstart> because its an instant front page news story
2008-04-13 01:06 < Lubaf> Volokh Conspiracy?
2008-04-13 01:07 < Lubaf> Balkenization?
2008-04-13 01:07 < ggreer> why is it that no characters in anime wear helmets while riding motorcycles?
2008-04-13 01:07 < White_Cat> "OMG! Dont use the metro! Terrists deliver WMDs there!"
2008-04-13 01:07 < Coldstart> it's all about making the population afraid and more pliable to their objectievs
2008-04-13 01:07 < White_Cat> thats the real threat
2008-04-13 01:07 < Lubaf> Homestar Runner?
2008-04-13 01:07 < Lubaf> Strong Bad?
2008-04-13 01:07 < ggreer> oh wait I know why, because with their hair hidden it's impossible to tell characters apart
2008-04-13 01:07 < Lubaf> King?
2008-04-13 01:07 < Lubaf> Kong?
2008-04-13 01:07 < Lubaf> Anybody?
2008-04-13 01:07 < zocky> compare british reactions to islamic terrorism and to the much more realistic threat of IRA in 1970s/1980s
2008-04-13 01:07 < White_Cat> Lubaf thats Ping! Pong!
2008-04-13 01:07 < Lubaf> Anyone at all?
2008-04-13 01:07 < arcimboldo_> Well, Mullah Omar stated that there was a plan to destroy the US completely in three phases ...
2008-04-13 01:07 < Lubaf> Anybody besides White_Cat?
2008-04-13 01:07 < White_Cat> zocky I disagree
2008-04-13 01:08 < zocky> arcimboldo_, I have a plan to become a billionaire in 3 phases ;)
2008-04-13 01:08 < White_Cat> UK's reaction to IRA was right
2008-04-13 01:08 < arcimboldo_> Just it seems their plan hasn't worked so well until now.
2008-04-13 01:08 < White_Cat> there is a lesser threat today
2008-04-13 01:08 < White_Cat> and UK had been dealing with islamist terrorists for quite some time
2008-04-13 01:08 < zocky> White_Cat, exactly... with IRA, which was a real threat, they were forced to be rational
2008-04-13 01:08 < White_Cat> Islamists never had peace and quiet in the UK
2008-04-13 01:09 < White_Cat> which is why their activity has been well confined
2008-04-13 01:09 < arcimboldo_> So, terrorists might easily like the idea of choosing total destruction as their final objective. They're lacking the capability though.
2008-04-13 01:09 < zocky> with islamists, the threat is nil to low, and they're using them for propaganda and forcing illiberal laws
2008-04-13 01:09 * Golbez wanders off
2008-04-13 01:09 < White_Cat> UK regularly deported people who think British should be cleansed from the UK
2008-04-13 01:09 < White_Cat> zocky I wouldnt say that
2008-04-13 01:09 < White_Cat> islamists are more of a threat than IRA
2008-04-13 01:10 < White_Cat> which had a political goal
2008-04-13 01:10 < zocky> to the UK?
2008-04-13 01:10 < zocky> nah
2008-04-13 01:10 < White_Cat> islamists on the other hand dont seek a political goal
2008-04-13 01:10 < zocky> the only reason they're any kind of threat to UK is iraq
2008-04-13 01:10 < White_Cat> zocky I disagree
2008-04-13 01:10 < White_Cat> islamists were in UK befire iraq war
2008-04-13 01:10 < zocky> islamists are a threat to countries where they can actually get into government
2008-04-13 01:10 < zocky> like turkey
2008-04-13 01:11 < zocky> or countries where they're already in power
2008-04-13 01:11 < zocky> like saudi arabia and iraq
2008-04-13 01:11 < arcimboldo_> The classical European terrorism has more clearly defined targets, and they always wanted to escape rather than commit suicide.
2008-04-13 01:11 < arcimboldo_> has -> had
2008-04-13 01:11 < zocky> arcimboldo_, depends on the desperation
2008-04-13 01:11 < zocky> arcimboldo_, our resistance did occasional suicide attacks on germans
2008-04-13 01:12 < arcimboldo_> I am not sure I would subsumate your resistance unter "terrorism".
2008-04-13 01:12 < zocky> well, that's what the germans called it at that time
2008-04-13 01:13 < arcimboldo_> I've thinking more about the terrorists of the 70s and 80s in Italy, UK, Germany, Spain ...
2008-04-13 01:13 < zocky> it's never terrorism when they're on your side
2008-04-13 01:13 < White_Cat> zocky islamists are in control of the government in Turkey :P
2008-04-13 01:13 < White_Cat> zocky remember
2008-04-13 01:13 < White_Cat> islamists are the minority in all cases
2008-04-13 01:14 < zocky> White_Cat, well, they're in government. they don't actually control the country yet.
2008-04-13 01:14 < arcimboldo_> Hm ... a Christian party is in power in Germany, but it doesn't mean they start a new crusade ...
2008-04-13 01:14 < zocky> not until they control the army
2008-04-13 01:14 < White_Cat> so long as there is one country externaly supporting them they are a threat to us all
2008-04-13 01:14 < White_Cat> zocky army isnt what it used to be
2008-04-13 01:14 < zocky> White_Cat, catholic clericals are a much bigger threat to me than islamists
2008-04-13 01:15 < White_Cat> zocky towards small boys maybe
2008-04-13 01:15 < zocky> White_Cat, towards public property
2008-04-13 01:15 < White_Cat> :P
2008-04-13 01:15 < zocky> and separation of church and state
2008-04-13 01:15 < White_Cat> zocky separation of church and state isnt much of an issue in the EU and US
2008-04-13 01:16 < zocky> White_Cat, it doesn't exist in much of europe
2008-04-13 01:16 < White_Cat> it is generaly overy symbolic and supersticial issues
2008-04-13 01:16 < White_Cat> zocky come on
2008-04-13 01:16 < White_Cat> not even in France?
2008-04-13 01:16 < zocky> it does exist in slovenia
2008-04-13 01:16 < zocky> White_Cat, it doesn't exist in the monarchies
2008-04-13 01:16 < White_Cat> zocky well
2008-04-13 01:16 < zocky> and possibly in finland, but I'm not sure
2008-04-13 01:17 < White_Cat> for the most part EU is pretty much run by politics not cardinals
2008-04-13 01:17 < arcimboldo_> http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=w4-OMvcfHj8 ... that player in blue won't have a nice time in his team for the time being ...
2008-04-13 01:17 < zocky> but the government is now paying the church so much money (on top of giving it a LOT of property) that it's becoming a joke
2008-04-13 01:17 < White_Cat> zocky meh
2008-04-13 01:17 < zocky> haha
2008-04-13 01:17 < zocky> arcimboldo_, poor guy
2008-04-13 01:18 < zocky> maybe he didn't know that was his team's goal? :)
2008-04-13 01:18 < White_Cat> zocky or maybe he got mind controled
2008-04-13 01:18 < White_Cat> zocky I think he was trying to shoot the ball outside
2008-04-13 01:19 < zocky> he missed outside
2008-04-13 01:20 < White_Cat> that is obvious
2008-04-13 01:20 < zocky> in this classical yugoslav comedy, a guy gets challenged to a duel, and he's a terrible shot. so his father asks him "have you ever shot a gun in your life?" "I have" "Where?" "At weddings" "What did you shoot at?" "Air" "So, did you hit air?"
2008-04-13 01:21 < White_Cat> zocky well
2008-04-13 01:21 < nokmar> that's awesome.
2008-04-13 01:21 < White_Cat> if you fail to shoot air you are generaly arrested for second degree murder
2008-04-13 01:21 < White_Cat> it'd be a NastyAccident
2008-04-13 01:22 < KillerCRS> Aren't we just a bunch of goofs.
2008-04-13 01:23 < White_Cat> zocky back to iraq, I think the only way US can win is if they gain the trust of Iraqs neighbours
2008-04-13 01:23 < White_Cat> a lack of it was why US entered iraq
2008-04-13 01:24 < arcimboldo_> http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=G4I11zmAnmc&feature=related
2008-04-13 01:25 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: Oh, so I was bored this evening
2008-04-13 01:26 < Mike_H> and apparently on YouTube there's a user posting a really sweet gay love story
2008-04-13 01:26 < Mike_H> on a German soap opera
2008-04-13 01:26 < Mike_H> German sounds really sexy when hot people are speaking it.
2008-04-13 01:26 < Gracenotes> serials posted on YouTube can really waste one's time...
2008-04-13 01:26 < arcimboldo_> Hm ... neither of these topic would draw my attention that much ..
2008-04-13 01:26 < zocky> White_Cat, they can't win, and they don't intend to win
2008-04-13 01:26 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: You're the only German that I know of who's here right now
2008-04-13 01:27 < White_Cat> zocky if US wins the support of Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Turkey sure they can
2008-04-13 01:27 < arcimboldo_> Unfortunaly, I'm not an expert in soap operas ...
2008-04-13 01:27 < zocky> White_Cat, the purposes of the war are spending taxpayer money on armaments and driving up the price of oil
2008-04-13 01:27 < zocky> White_Cat, so they're winning
2008-04-13 01:27 < arcimboldo_> not in gay stuff
2008-04-13 01:27 < Mike_H> Gracenotes: Okay, so search for Oliver and Christian English subtitles
2008-04-13 01:27 < arcimboldo_> nor
2008-04-13 01:27 < White_Cat> zocky I dont think expensive oil is good for US
2008-04-13 01:27 < Mike_H> they're characters from the soap opera "Verbotene Liebe"
2008-04-13 01:27 < Mike_H> it's really good
2008-04-13 01:27 < zocky> White_Cat, it's good for the oil companies
2008-04-13 01:27 < White_Cat> zocky actualy no
2008-04-13 01:28 < zocky> White_Cat, the war isn't good for US and never was
2008-04-13 01:28 < White_Cat> while prices increase profit drops
2008-04-13 01:28 < zocky> White_Cat, really?
2008-04-13 01:28 < zocky> check the profits of oil companies since 2003
2008-04-13 01:28 < White_Cat> zocky yes
2008-04-13 01:28 < White_Cat> zocky of course they increased
2008-04-13 01:28 < Ceiling_Cat> is it possible to watchlist a nonexistant page?
2008-04-13 01:28 < White_Cat> but they increased less
2008-04-13 01:28 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat yes
2008-04-13 01:28 < Ceiling_Cat> I know it happens if you watch a page that gets deleted
2008-04-13 01:28 < White_Cat> I have seen it done
2008-04-13 01:28 < zocky> retail prices for fuel have increased much more than the price of oil
2008-04-13 01:28 < Ceiling_Cat> but is the reverse possible?
2008-04-13 01:29 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat I already answered
2008-04-13 01:29 < White_Cat> yes it is possible
2008-04-13 01:29 < Ceiling_Cat> AHA
2008-04-13 01:29 < Ceiling_Cat> I think if you edit your raw watchlist
2008-04-13 01:29 < Ceiling_Cat> you can do it
2008-04-13 01:29 < Mike_H> Gracenotes: I've never seen this Verbotene Liebe show before today
2008-04-13 01:29 < White_Cat> YES
2008-04-13 01:29 < Mike_H> but it's really well-done
2008-04-13 01:29 < Gracenotes> oic
2008-04-13 01:29 < Mike_H> good music and actors
2008-04-13 01:29 < Mike_H> which shocks me
2008-04-13 01:29 < zocky> than the part of fuel prices that's influenced by oil prices, I should say
2008-04-13 01:29 < Mike_H> since it's...a soap
2008-04-13 01:30 < White_Cat> zocky I dont think iraqi war was about oil
2008-04-13 01:30 < White_Cat> venezuella is a better target
2008-04-13 01:30 < zocky> White_Cat, it was about profit, and it's working great
2008-04-13 01:30 < White_Cat> zocky I dont think anyone but an elite minority is profiting
2008-04-13 01:30 < zocky> White_Cat, yes, the same elite minority that made the decision to attack
2008-04-13 01:31 < White_Cat> once bush goes those companies will suffer immensely
2008-04-13 01:31 < Gracenotes> Mike_H: of interest -- http://xkcd.com/216/
2008-04-13 01:31 < zocky> that's what's the main problem with US currently
2008-04-13 01:31 < zocky> it's not acting rationally in its own interest
2008-04-13 01:31 < White_Cat> zocky main problem in the US is unemployment
2008-04-13 01:31 < Gracenotes> key word = *possible*
2008-04-13 01:31 * denelson83 is listening to "I Get Around" by Dragonette (CKLR-FM 97.3 - Stereo)
2008-04-13 01:31 < zocky> it's acting irrationally in the interest of the elite minority
2008-04-13 01:31 < Mike_H> Gracenotes: true story
2008-04-13 01:31 < zocky> actually, it's acting rationally in the interest of the elite minority
2008-04-13 01:32 < zocky> but that makes it impossible to deal with as a country
2008-04-13 01:33 < denelson83> Then take out death warrants for the elite minority
2008-04-13 01:35 * denelson83 is listening to "Centerfold" by J. Geils Band (CFCP-FM 98.9 - Stereo)
2008-04-13 01:35 < zocky> Gracenotes, actually, that chart can't be right
2008-04-13 01:36 < Gracenotes> yeah... there's a correct version in the forums
2008-04-13 01:36 < zocky> for the gay cast, it should be a horizontal line, no?
2008-04-13 01:36 < denelson83> BTW, that elite minority... All bankers
2008-04-13 01:37 < Gracenotes> zocky: I think the idea is that the two casts coexist, and that their sum must be a constant
2008-04-13 01:38 < White_Cat> zocky btw
2008-04-13 01:39 < White_Cat> do you think US Gov is a reliable source on terrorist attacks against the US?
2008-04-13 01:39 < denelson83> nope
2008-04-13 01:39 * denelson83 is listening to "My Father's Eyes" by Eric Clapton (CKLR-FM 97.3 - Stereo)
2008-04-13 01:39 < White_Cat> or any government on terrorist attacks on itself
2008-04-13 01:39 < Gracenotes> zocky: this wouldn't be possible with a straight-line... I assume Randall assumes the straight cast must be at a maximum? if so, gay cast would be 0 at the midpoint... :|
2008-04-13 01:39 < zocky> f(n-f) makes sense
2008-04-13 01:40 < zocky> Gracenotes, nah, one curve is for all-straight cast, and the other is for all-gay cast
2008-04-13 01:40 < zocky> the x axis is percentage of females, and y is the available pairings
2008-04-13 01:40 < Gracenotes> hm
2008-04-13 01:41 < zocky> i'm not sure about his formula for gay pairings
2008-04-13 01:42 < zocky> it should really be f*(f-1)+(n-f)*(n-f-1)
2008-04-13 01:42 < zocky> he uses x where I use f
2008-04-13 01:42 < zocky> so probably not a horizontal line
2008-04-13 01:43 < zocky> that would be for concurrent separate pairings
2008-04-13 01:44 < Gracenotes> that simplifies to ff-f+nn-fn-n-fn+ff+f = 2ff-2fn+nn-n
2008-04-13 01:44 < White_Cat> eww math
2008-04-13 01:44 < White_Cat> offtopic!
2008-04-13 01:44 < White_Cat> :P
2008-04-13 01:45 * Gracenotes will have to ponder this in his spare time... really, he has nothing else to do...
2008-04-13 01:46 < zocky> Gracenotes, actually, I'm more pathetic than that
2008-04-13 01:46 < White_Cat> Gracenotes you can help me
2008-04-13 01:46 < zocky> Gracenotes, I made a chart in openoffice
2008-04-13 01:46 < Gracenotes> ah. how does it look?
2008-04-13 01:47 < zocky> like his
2008-04-13 01:47 < Gracenotes> White_Cat: what is it you need assistance with?
2008-04-13 01:47 < zocky> only for 20 people in the cast, gay cast always has more pairings than the straight cast
2008-04-13 01:48 < White_Cat> Gracenotes
2008-04-13 01:48 < White_Cat> http://tools.wikimedia.de/~daniel/WikiSense/CheckUsage.php?i=Resilient-silver.png&w=_100000
2008-04-13 01:48 < White_Cat> http://tools.wikimedia.de/~daniel/WikiSense/CheckUsage.php?i=Surreal+barnstar.png&w=_100000
2008-04-13 01:48 < zocky> for the gay cast, the lowest point is 180 pairs, and for the straight cast, the highest is 100
2008-04-13 01:48 < White_Cat> rename of those two and 6 other images
2008-04-13 01:48 < Gracenotes> zocky: lowest point occurs at 50/50 ratio?
2008-04-13 01:49 < zocky> yes
2008-04-13 01:49 < Gracenotes> hm
2008-04-13 01:49 < denelson83> o_O
2008-04-13 01:50 < Gracenotes> blue! | -W-e just --> blue! | +E+n+g+l+i+s+h+ +W+i+k+i+p+e+d+i+a just
2008-04-13 01:51 < zocky> it's the same for a 100-member cast
2008-04-13 01:51 * denelson83 gets the living shit beat out of him
2008-04-13 01:51 < White_Cat> Gracenotes so will you help? :)
2008-04-13 01:51 < zocky> at 50/50, there are 2500 straight pairs, and 4900 gay pairs
2008-04-13 01:52 < Gracenotes> White_Cat: can't CommonsDelinker do that?
2008-04-13 01:52 < White_Cat> nope
2008-04-13 01:52 < White_Cat> I ran it several times
2008-04-13 01:52 < Gracenotes> :|
2008-04-13 01:52 < White_Cat> these are pages bots cant deal with
2008-04-13 01:52 < Gracenotes> maybe the only remaining usages are on protected pages?
2008-04-13 01:52 < White_Cat> most are protected and pages marked with no bot template
2008-04-13 01:52 < White_Cat> Gracenotes for the most part yes
2008-04-13 01:53 < denelson83> Asked in #wikimedia-commons?
2008-04-13 01:53 < White_Cat> I am a commons admin
2008-04-13 01:53 < White_Cat> :P
2008-04-13 01:53 < denelson83> ask anyway
2008-04-13 01:54 < Gracenotes> zocky: does that take into account people without pairings?
2008-04-13 01:54 < White_Cat> I did
2008-04-13 01:54 < White_Cat> no one helped
2008-04-13 01:54 < White_Cat> and they cant help either
2008-04-13 01:54 < denelson83> Hmmm... I guess you're SOL
2008-04-13 01:54 < White_Cat> since most commons admins cant edit protected pages on en.wiki
2008-04-13 01:54 < denelson83> I'm an enwiki admin
2008-04-13 01:54 < White_Cat> and you arent helping denelson83
2008-04-13 01:54 < White_Cat> :P
2008-04-13 01:54 < Gracenotes> Bernoulli distribution, iirc...
2008-04-13 01:54 < Gracenotes> >.>
2008-04-13 01:55 < denelson83> Well, if you want an en admin, I'm available
2008-04-13 01:55 < White_Cat> yay
2008-04-13 01:55 * denelson83 freezes his browser
2008-04-13 01:55 < White_Cat> denelson83 help me relink these images
2008-04-13 01:56 < denelson83> In progress...
2008-04-13 01:57 < White_Cat> :D
2008-04-13 01:59 * denelson83 's browser keeps freezing
2008-04-13 02:00 < White_Cat> denelson83 what are you trying to do?
2008-04-13 02:00 < Gracenotes> denelson83: what are you using?
2008-04-13 02:00 < Gracenotes> browser
2008-04-13 02:01 < White_Cat> firefox will freeze if you are trying to access the image pages on commons
2008-04-13 02:02 < denelson83> Firefox
2008-04-13 02:02 < denelson83> I'm running into __NOEDITSECTION__ too many times
2008-04-13 02:04 < White_Cat> oh
2008-04-13 02:04 * Ceiling_Cat sighs
2008-04-13 02:04 < Ceiling_Cat> I've been at this for almost 12 hours now
2008-04-13 02:04 < Ceiling_Cat> my deadline is in 6 hours
2008-04-13 02:05 < notagerbil> I have a question about using a photo....
2008-04-13 02:06 < notagerbil> It is a situation photo which includes the profile image of a person we have no free image of so far.
2008-04-13 02:06 < denelson83> Blitz edit completed
2008-04-13 02:06 < denelson83> Three edits failed due to spam filter conflict
2008-04-13 02:07 < kmccoy> If Firefox is freezing, give it a blanket.
2008-04-13 02:07 < notagerbil> now the photo will be a bit weird looking, if I crop it so the object the person is facing is not visible...
2008-04-13 02:07 < notagerbil> but my problem is that the object is myself.