freenode #wikipedia

2008-04-10 10:18 < ta_bu_shi_da_yu> fair enough
2008-04-10 10:18 < Leslie_S> ta_bu_shi_da_yu and by the way, all talking at all about anything at all was banned. wikipedia talk was supposed to go to #wikipedia-en or wherever, and talk talk to -social...
2008-04-10 10:18 < Leslie_S> see any issue?
2008-04-10 10:18 < Leslie_S> heh
2008-04-10 10:18 < ta_bu_shi_da_yu> damn... I don't think I've ever seen any thread that was so upset about a change ever!
2008-04-10 10:19 < _kmh_> any help with my question ?
2008-04-10 10:19 < Thehelpfulone2> _kmh_: what's your question? o.o
2008-04-10 10:20 < Thehelpfulone2> _kmh_: no idea ;/
2008-04-10 10:20 < _kmh_> got a format question. I'm trying to tie an image to a certain section of a text, but displayed on the right. The problem is that i don't have much text but several image, which results images overlapping the text section if i just use the image tags
2008-04-10 10:20 < _kmh_> is there an easy way to fix that (other than using tables)?
2008-04-10 10:20 < Leslie_S> i have an interview with schneider national tomorrow
2008-04-10 10:20 < Leslie_S> :D
2008-04-10 10:21 < Werdna> cool
2008-04-10 10:21 < Werdna> wherefore?
2008-04-10 10:27 < rw> hiho all
2008-04-10 10:28 < Lycurgus> yello ew
2008-04-10 10:28 < Lycurgus> *rw
2008-04-10 10:28 < rw> Could anyone localize my position just on the fact that i am in this channel? ( ip adress i.e. ? )
2008-04-10 10:28 < rw> ;)
2008-04-10 10:28 < rw> hi Lycurgus
2008-04-10 10:29 < Leslie_S> ta_bu_shi_da_yu http://forums.ebay.com.au/thread.jspa?threadID=500078993&tstart=0&mod=1207836644307 ROFL ROFL
2008-04-10 10:29 < zocky> rw, short answer, yes
2008-04-10 10:30 < Lycurgus> rw: only to de
2008-04-10 10:30 < Werdna> rw: you're in Frankfurt, Germany.
2008-04-10 10:30 < Cyrius> Leslie_S: I assume not to be a trucker
2008-04-10 10:31 < Lycurgus> hmmm, are yuo actually in FaM?
2008-04-10 10:31 < Lycurgus> *you/du/Sie
2008-04-10 10:32 < rw> Werdna, hm, actually i am near stuttgart :)
2008-04-10 10:32 * Werdna shrugs, goes to bed
2008-04-10 10:32 < rw> so to find out the exact city i am in right now is a little bit more comlicated ?
2008-04-10 10:32 < zocky> rw, http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm?GetLocation&ipaddress=62.224.72.97
2008-04-10 10:32 < rw> complicated *
2008-04-10 10:33 < IceKarma> rw, well, not so much that
2008-04-10 10:33 < rw> thx zocky =)
2008-04-10 10:33 < IceKarma> rw, finding out your location from your IP address is only approximate, because the location found that way will actually be the address of the entity that owns the IP
2008-04-10 10:33 < rw> IceKarma, explain :)
2008-04-10 10:33 < zocky> rw, it would require access to your ISP's records
2008-04-10 10:33 < rw> hm, i see
2008-04-10 10:34 < ta_bu_shi_da_yu> yup, eBay are screwed
2008-04-10 10:34 < IceKarma> rw, for example, if you try to geo-locate any customer of Shaw Internet in Canada, they'll always show as being in Calgary, Alberta, because that's where Shaw's office is
2008-04-10 10:34 < zocky> your ISP probably can connect your IP at any given time to the bill payer for your connection
2008-04-10 10:34 < IceKarma> zocky, if they can't, they have huge problems
2008-04-10 10:34 < Lycurgus> IceKarma: not so.
2008-04-10 10:34 < zocky> IceKarma, or good privacy policy, which is probably illegal these days
2008-04-10 10:34 < rw> hm, thx for the information so far, i'll have a closer look at that link :)
2008-04-10 10:35 < Lycurgus> in the US the geocode returned is the actual point of the subscriber
2008-04-10 10:35 < Lycurgus> with geobytes public service anyway
2008-04-10 10:35 < IceKarma> Lycurgus, I'd love to have an AOL IP handy to test that with.
2008-04-10 10:35 < Lycurgus> they're usually not accurate for non-US
2008-04-10 10:35 < Lycurgus> i.e. the free public service
2008-04-10 10:35 < IceKarma> Lycurgus, or other US-national ISP
2008-04-10 10:36 < Lycurgus> doesn't have to be national
2008-04-10 10:36 < Lycurgus> and most ISPs here aren't
2008-04-10 10:36 < Lycurgus> most are regional
2008-04-10 10:36 < Lycurgus> or local
2008-04-10 10:36 < IceKarma> Lycurgus, yeah, I know.
2008-04-10 10:36 * IceKarma did live in the US for only almost five years. ;)
2008-04-10 10:36 < IceKarma> (not that you were to know that)
2008-04-10 10:38 < Lycurgus> yeah, their a pretty sleazy operation, in europe (and presumably everywhere outside US) they report the ISPs address.
2008-04-10 10:39 < Lycurgus> maybe they have a more expensive service that is accurate on a wider basis, just takes a large geocode-ip database.
2008-04-10 10:39 < Lycurgus> *they're
2008-04-10 10:39 < Lycurgus> \whois IceKarma
2008-04-10 10:39 < IceKarma> heh, it thinks I'm in Nanaimo, BC, with a certainty of "96", whatever that's measured in
2008-04-10 10:39 < IceKarma> lol, I'm cloaked :P
2008-04-10 10:39 < IceKarma> or I should be
2008-04-10 10:39 < IceKarma> good, I am. :D
2008-04-10 10:40 < zocky> IceKarma, maybe the percentage of IPs that are likely to be in the town itself?
2008-04-10 10:40 < IceKarma> zocky, unknown
2008-04-10 10:41 < Lycurgus> it's simple certaintly of the 0 distance place name
2008-04-10 10:41 < Lycurgus> it was 70% for the ISP in germany
2008-04-10 10:42 < IceKarma> hm, it's still saying "96" for the US IP I just tried
2008-04-10 10:43 < Lycurgus> yeah, actually as I look at it, I'm 99%+ certain all they do is match to the nearest CLEC or whatever once they determine the ISP
2008-04-10 10:44 < Lycurgus> for example they give 85% certainty and are 25 miles off for my location
2008-04-10 10:44 < IceKarma> Lycurgus, hmm hmm, so the WHOIS data for the IP I tried doesn't say anything about the location Geobytes reports. interesting.
2008-04-10 10:45 < Lycurgus> jwhois is better
2008-04-10 10:45 < IceKarma> that seems to suggest there's some better database of IP<=>location data for the US
2008-04-10 10:46 < Lycurgus> also you can't use a dynamically generated fQDN
2008-04-10 10:47 < Lycurgus> yes there certainly is. I haven't identified a commeccially available one yet. It's certain the government for example has them.
2008-04-10 10:47 < IceKarma> they talk about BGP a lot on their explanation page, but I still don't see how they're getting CLLI codes from that
2008-04-10 10:48 < Lycurgus> if they are Geobytes, whocares?
2008-04-10 10:48 < Lycurgus> BGP is a misdirection.
2008-04-10 10:48 < IceKarma> ...
2008-04-10 10:49 < IceKarma> I care, because I'm curious how they do it
2008-04-10 10:49 < Lycurgus> I'm not and I'm pretty sure it's as I said.
2008-04-10 10:49 < Lycurgus> essentially.
2008-04-10 10:50 < IceKarma> and I don't think the mentions of BGP are entirely misdirection -- I'm guessing they use the "complete BGP routing table" to prune addresses from the DB that are allocated but not in use
2008-04-10 10:51 < TheWeasel> "Traditionally, a grand duchy, such as Luxembourg, was generally independent and sovereign"
2008-04-10 10:51 < TheWeasel> that's just false.
2008-04-10 10:51 < TheWeasel> there were a couple of grand duchies in Germany that weren't (Hesse especially)
2008-04-10 10:51 < IceKarma> I also don't get what CLECs have to do with it
2008-04-10 10:52 < Lycurgus> i didn't say "[the mention of] BGP is [entirely] a misdirection".
2008-04-10 10:52 < IceKarma> based on my understanding of what a CLEC is, having known a few people who've run them
2008-04-10 10:53 < IceKarma> but since you're apparently not just uninterested but negatively interested in discussing it, I'll just stop talking about it now.
2008-04-10 10:56 < Lycurgus> not negative interest in the topic, and of course this vendor would in principle shed some light on it but it seems chump-like to be to bother with them, even if you do have some interest
2008-04-10 10:58 < IceKarma> ...
2008-04-10 10:58 < Lycurgus> i.e. would for example if you were an employee or had ready easily obtained on their methods;otherwise as an entity they're depressingly apparent and I wouldn't take the tack of assuming they do anything other than what I said they do.
2008-04-10 10:59 < Lycurgus> *obtained info
2008-04-10 10:59 < Lycurgus> that's The Way anyway/
2008-04-10 11:00 < IceKarma> maybe I'm just exceptionally thick this morning, but you don't seem to have actually *said* anything about how they do it
2008-04-10 11:00 < Lycurgus> s/\//./ They just don't do it very well.
2008-04-10 11:00 < Leslie_S> heh, i hate the song The Cranberries - Zombie....but i listened to a techno remix of it, and i love it.
2008-04-10 11:00 < Messedrocker> the wiki way?
2008-04-10 11:01 < Leslie_S> Its sped up to the point where the screaming parts sound like rather normal lyrics
2008-04-10 11:01 < Lycurgus> 10:43 < Lycurgus> yeah, actually as I look at it, I'm 99%+ certain all they do is match to the nearest CLEC or whatever once they determine the ISP
2008-04-10 11:01 < Lycurgus> "whatever" = other ISP local drop
2008-04-10 11:01 < Messedrocker> ha
2008-04-10 11:03 < IceKarma> and I've been trying to enquire how they're going from the ISP to the exchange (as represented by the CLLI code -- the "city code"), given that WHOIS doesn't contain that information, and I don't know where else you'd go to find it
2008-04-10 11:04 < IceKarma> also, I notice that it says I'm in Nanaimo, but WHOIS shows my ISP's Vancouver office, so evidently this information is available for more than just the US
2008-04-10 11:04 < Lycurgus> NP: Linger
2008-04-10 11:09 < quanticle> Why does AntiSpamMeta keep pinging me about brown_cat?
2008-04-10 11:15 < Thehelpfulone2> quanticle: which channel?
2008-04-10 11:15 * TheWeasel reads some Raelian political theory
2008-04-10 11:17 < TheWeasel> it's just good ol' esoteric elitism
2008-04-10 11:18 < TheWeasel> "you're too dumb to vote"
2008-04-10 11:19 < TheWeasel> a very popular argument
2008-04-10 11:19 < quanticle> Thehelpfulone2: #wikipedia
2008-04-10 11:19 < quanticle> TheWeasel: But one that's not necessarily invalid. I mean, would you want Paris Hilton to vote?
2008-04-10 11:19 < TheWeasel> Yes.
2008-04-10 11:20 < TheWeasel> I think an "elite" scared of those things is rightfully scared.
2008-04-10 11:20 < quanticle> TheWeasel: That is true.
2008-04-10 11:20 < TheWeasel> and should remain so
2008-04-10 11:20 < TheWeasel> :-)
2008-04-10 11:21 * TheWeasel has seen loads of experts being various sorts of wrong on all sorts of issues
2008-04-10 11:21 < TheWeasel> Brb, need f00d.
2008-04-10 11:22 < Lycurgus> sure because "expert" is a degraded term in bourgeois culture
2008-04-10 11:22 < TheWeasel> they propose people taking a "test in practical intelligence" before gaining active or passive franchise.
2008-04-10 11:22 < IceKarma> an ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure
2008-04-10 11:22 < TheWeasel> whatever that means
2008-04-10 11:22 < Lycurgus> indeed the very enterprise of knowledged acquistion and pretty much every other activity is similarly degraded.
2008-04-10 11:22 < TheWeasel> (I mean the thing I quoted)
2008-04-10 11:23 * TheWeasel is not as pessimistic
2008-04-10 11:23 < Mark_Ryan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRFfJJjLpqw - this is a cool ad
2008-04-10 11:23 < Lycurgus> well you're in .de where a majority of the population is coming around to socialism
2008-04-10 11:23 < TheWeasel> is it a cool ad for Kool-Aid?
2008-04-10 11:23 < Lycurgus> hasn't even started here
2008-04-10 11:24 < TheWeasel> It's not awfully likely to work.
2008-04-10 11:24 < TheWeasel> But yea, we have a pretty big franchise, most felons and most incapacitated people have the vote
2008-04-10 11:24 < TheWeasel> I see no reason for it to be any different
2008-04-10 11:25 < TheWeasel> all movements are tempered in democracy, that's what everyone criticizes, it all "gets watered down"
2008-04-10 11:25 < TheWeasel> when the presumed "will of the people" is much clearer
2008-04-10 11:26 < Lycurgus> right, socialism is democracy taken seriously
2008-04-10 11:26 < Lycurgus> bourgeois representative democracy is a fraud by comparison
2008-04-10 11:26 < TheWeasel> without some socialism, democracy is probably impossible, I follow you there.
2008-04-10 11:27 < Lycurgus> but i've come to the opinion that the only way forward is a completion of the bourgeois revoltion begun 200 years ago
2008-04-10 11:27 < TheWeasel> because even a very reluctant state will just be replaced by overwhelming "businesses"
2008-04-10 11:27 < Lycurgus> as finance capital is really just an extension of the regime ancien
2008-04-10 11:27 < TheWeasel> Heh, the social democratic/Menshevik theory.
2008-04-10 11:28 < TheWeasel> and... democracy in business = socialism
2008-04-10 11:28 < TheWeasel> in this way, democracy without participation of accountable people in business is not conceivable
2008-04-10 11:29 < Lycurgus> right the intermediate stage must be a domination of the advanced forces of production as a class of owners of the MoP embodied in their capacity as "knowledge workers"
2008-04-10 11:29 < Lycurgus> overturning the current absurd domination of finance capital
2008-04-10 11:30 < TheWeasel> I don't know about applicability of Marxist terms. I just follow social democracy which says business must be accountable.
2008-04-10 11:30 < Lycurgus> who really own nothing except a societal imprimatur to control money
2008-04-10 11:30 < TheWeasel> because we don't elect it, but it has an impact on us as if we should
2008-04-10 11:31 < TheWeasel> in Germany we're going from the providing state to the guaranteeing state
2008-04-10 11:32 < Lycurgus> their ability to command actualy value production, especially as concerns innovation and accelerating innovation at that due to thier lack of ownership of intellectual property at it's root should accelerate both the contradiction and its resolution
2008-04-10 11:32 < TheWeasel> it's privatization with retention of control
2008-04-10 11:32 < TheWeasel> heh, yes.
2008-04-10 11:32 < TheWeasel> Patience.
2008-04-10 11:32 < TheWeasel> :-)
2008-04-10 11:32 < TheWeasel> not pulling a Lenin is best
2008-04-10 11:32 < Lycurgus> currently IP law is based first on the individual producer who must sell it to a capital concern for it to own the IP
2008-04-10 11:33 < Lycurgus> *actual
2008-04-10 11:35 < Lycurgus> further, this a logical requirement, one inherent in capitalist procuction as oppossed to feudalism or chattel slavery since only in the latter does "tresspass to chattels" apply in full force so that ...
2008-04-10 11:35 < Lycurgus> anything produced by the chattel is also owner by its owner.
2008-04-10 11:35 < Lycurgus> *owned by its owner
2008-04-10 11:36 < TheWeasel> that would be because chattel is "the third arm of the owner", not a natural person.
2008-04-10 11:36 < TheWeasel> so the concept of private property would be logically absurd
2008-04-10 11:37 < Lycurgus> btw: 'tresspass to chattels' in a weakened form is the legal basis in some parts of the world under which cybercrimes against corporations are prosecuted.
2008-04-10 11:37 < quanticle> I go to play NetHack and I come back to a philosophical discussion of property right...
2008-04-10 11:37 < Lycurgus> CACM had an article on this within the last year.
2008-04-10 11:37 < TheWeasel> Well, the concept of "res" in Roman law proved very useful for all kinds of things
2008-04-10 11:38 < IceKarma> TheWeasel, "thing"?
2008-04-10 11:38 < TheWeasel> whether it was slaves, cows or boxing gloves
2008-04-10 11:38 < TheWeasel> yes
2008-04-10 11:38 < klwei> hey hello
2008-04-10 11:38 < klwei> how can i do umlauts in the math environment via \text{..}
2008-04-10 11:38 < IceKarma> klwei, *umlauts*?
2008-04-10 11:38 < TheWeasel> now that'd be an odd variable :-P
2008-04-10 11:38 < klwei> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaut_%28diacritic%29
2008-04-10 11:39 < klwei> The umlaut is a diacritic consisting of a pair of dots or lines placed over a letter.
2008-04-10 11:39 < IceKarma> klwei, I know what an umlaut is
2008-04-10 11:39 < klwei> so how?
2008-04-10 11:39 < TheWeasel> "Consider two variables, ü and ß..."
2008-04-10 11:39 < IceKarma> klwei, are you trying to embed text in a language that uses umlauts in math?
2008-04-10 11:39 < klwei> yes
2008-04-10 11:39 < IceKarma> ah, that suddenly makes perfect sense
2008-04-10 11:39 < klwei> heh
2008-04-10 11:39 < IceKarma> unfortunately, I know zip about LaTeX
2008-04-10 11:39 < Lycurgus> umlaut should be a char entity in ML
2008-04-10 11:40 < Lycurgus> and it certainly is TeX/LaTeX
2008-04-10 11:40 < IceKarma> I don't know anything more about generic TeX, either, except that I don't like Knuth's Computer Modern fonts
2008-04-10 11:40 < klwei> the normal latex version "o didn't work
2008-04-10 11:40 < quanticle> klwei: Its ouml in MathML
2008-04-10 11:40 < Lycurgus> there would be a different one in a math env
2008-04-10 11:41 < klwei> was it that font that looks like a typewriter?
2008-04-10 11:41 < TheWeasel> Courier
2008-04-10 11:41 < klwei> i dont like it either
2008-04-10 11:41 < IceKarma> I believe that's the name of the Roman font the TeX system uses
2008-04-10 11:41 < IceKarma> Computer Modern, I mean
2008-04-10 11:41 < klwei> what a ugly font for a book
2008-04-10 11:41 * TheWeasel likes the bold, Italic Courier TT
2008-04-10 11:41 < TheWeasel> Oh
2008-04-10 11:41 < TheWeasel> okay
2008-04-10 11:41 * quanticle like Palatino
2008-04-10 11:42 < IceKarma> can you convert other formats to cweb?
2008-04-10 11:42 * TheWeasel can't identify his favorite book fonts
2008-04-10 11:42 * IceKarma can, but she's a serious typography nerd.
2008-04-10 11:42 < Lycurgus> should say I know TeX but little about Math ML, and only recent what I saw looking at little in wp article sources
2008-04-10 11:42 < klwei> who's she
2008-04-10 11:42 < TheWeasel> old books used to include it somewhere below the copyright notice
2008-04-10 11:42 < Lycurgus> Leslie Lamport?
2008-04-10 11:43 < quanticle> IceKarma: I can really only identify Palatino, Times New Roman and Arial.
2008-04-10 11:43 < IceKarma> quanticle, what, not Comic Sans? ;)
2008-04-10 11:43 * TheWeasel can identify numerous computer fonts, but not from books
2008-04-10 11:43 < quanticle> IceKarma: I don't have any books in Comic Sans :)
2008-04-10 11:43 < TheWeasel> quanticle: Would be disturbing if you did, if you know what I mean
2008-04-10 11:43 * IceKarma is adept at identifying fonts from samples.
2008-04-10 11:43 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-04-10 11:44 < TheWeasel> for they'd probably be the coloring kind
2008-04-10 11:44 < IceKarma> in fact, there's a hair salon just up the street that depresses the hell out of me, because they have two signs, one of which is in Jokerman, and the other is in Dauphin
2008-04-10 11:44 < IceKarma> both stock Microsoft Office fonts
2008-04-10 11:44 < IceKarma> :(
2008-04-10 11:44 < TheWeasel> Argh
2008-04-10 11:44 < TheWeasel> Jokerman is a bad Dylan song
2008-04-10 11:44 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-04-10 11:45 < IceKarma> I get very amused every time I see titles or credits in a TV show that are set in Verdana or Tahoma
2008-04-10 11:45 * TheWeasel really likes Rockwell
2008-04-10 11:46 < Leslie_S> rofl, i got mail that was accidentally delivered to my mailbox instead of another one. but...its for a guy i know, and is a magazine...printed by a place we both used to work at. LOL.
2008-04-10 11:46 * quanticle is traditional - only Palatino, Times, or Arial for quanticle
2008-04-10 11:46 < IceKarma> and I'll note that, when I've been pressed into service as a graphic designer, I have never done anything so crass as to use a stock font
2008-04-10 11:46 < TheWeasel> My professors always wanted papers in TNR
2008-04-10 11:46 < Leslie_S> oh wait, its company mail regarding his benefits. not so funny. heh.
2008-04-10 11:46 < IceKarma> except for cases like setting a book in a standard face
2008-04-10 11:47 < TheWeasel> Oh, Aldus
2008-04-10 11:47 < TheWeasel> I know that one
2008-04-10 11:47 < TheWeasel> it's pretty.
2008-04-10 11:47 < klwei> i need umlauts!
2008-04-10 11:47 < klwei> um laut
2008-04-10 11:47 < TheWeasel> Michael Ende used it in his more expensive editions.
2008-04-10 11:47 < TheWeasel> üäö
2008-04-10 11:47 < klwei> hehe thx
2008-04-10 11:47 < TheWeasel> there you go
2008-04-10 11:47 * Krimpet settles for no less than Comic Sans MS. ;)
2008-04-10 11:48 < IceKarma> Krimpet, from Hell's heart I stab at thee!
2008-04-10 11:48 < klwei> hey whats ouml
2008-04-10 11:48 < TheWeasel> Bembo is nice too... I know it from British books
2008-04-10 11:48 < Leslie_S> but still, it was funny because i know him. :P
2008-04-10 11:48 < quanticle> klwei: In HTML the way to print umlautted characters it to write ä
2008-04-10 11:49 * TheWeasel browses the list of fonts
2008-04-10 11:49 < quanticle> klwei: Where that'd print out a with an umlaut
2008-04-10 11:49 < IceKarma> äb̈c̈d̈ëf̈g̈ḧïj̈k̈l̈m̈n̈öp̈q̈r̈s̈ẗüv̈ẅẍÿz̈
2008-04-10 11:49 < quanticle> klwei: Replace the "a" with other vowels as necessary.
2008-04-10 11:49 < Krimpet> ooh, DYK that Comic Sans MS was supposed to be included in MS Bob but cut due to time constraints!
2008-04-10 11:50 < klwei> ah i know
2008-04-10 11:50 < klwei> but how in math env?
2008-04-10 11:50 < klwei> latex renders it, not the browser
2008-04-10 11:50 < Krimpet> \"{a}
2008-04-10 11:51 < quanticle> klwei: Ah. I don't know. That's deep magic, since it depends on how the LaTeX gets rendered into HTML, how the browser interprets said HTML, and what fonts the browser has installed.
2008-04-10 11:51 * TheWeasel has many books in Garamond
2008-04-10 11:51 < quanticle> TheWeasel: That's also a good font
2008-04-10 11:51 < klwei> ill try Krimpet
2008-04-10 11:51 < IceKarma> eh, Garamond is a bit light and spindly for body text
2008-04-10 11:51 < Krimpet> hmm, doesn't seem to work in MW for some reason... ://
2008-04-10 11:51 < Krimpet> er, :/
2008-04-10 11:52 * quanticle wanders off to play NetHack
2008-04-10 11:52 < klwei> parsing error Krimpet
2008-04-10 11:52 < Krimpet> I really use Computer Modern for everything, mostly to impress my professors ;p
2008-04-10 11:52 < klwei> "o is proper latex syntax too, but the wiki math env doesn't accept it
2008-04-10 11:52 < IceKarma> Krimpet, ugh.
2008-04-10 11:53 < klwei> to look like knuth Krimpet ?
2008-04-10 11:53 < klwei> heh
2008-04-10 11:53 < IceKarma> because Knuth is coooool
2008-04-10 11:53 < treepie> Hunger strike for a change in Oversight policy: http://forum.encyc.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=90
2008-04-10 11:53 < IceKarma> (he is, but the concept of someone in a rational science doing something for the cool factor is lol)
2008-04-10 11:54 < klwei> hey i really need umlauts in math environment's \text{} env now!
2008-04-10 11:54 < Leslie_S> A Two out of Three Falls or Best of Three Falls match is a match where not one, but two, decisions have to be won by a wrestler or tag team before the match is officially over. This used to be the standard match for professional wrestling, back in the days when wrestling was mostly legitimate.
2008-04-10 11:54 < Leslie_S> wrestling was ever legitimate?
2008-04-10 11:54 * TheWeasel had a Guiness Book of Records in Rockwell and loved it even then
2008-04-10 11:54 < TheWeasel> Knuth the polar bear?
2008-04-10 11:54 < TheWeasel> :-P
2008-04-10 11:54 < IceKarma> Leslie_S, wrestling is. "professional wrestling" is not.
2008-04-10 11:54 < treepie> (includes pictures)
2008-04-10 11:54 < klwei> help
2008-04-10 11:54 < klwei> help
2008-04-10 11:55 < IceKarma> klwei, jumping up and down isn't going to magically summon more people who care and know the most intimate details of math env
2008-04-10 11:55 < Krimpet> well, more too look like I'm a savvy LaTeX user like many of the old hands that use it in the CS department, to take attention away from any lack of content. :)
2008-04-10 11:55 < TheWeasel> Man, who chooses the example words for Wikipedia font samples?
2008-04-10 11:55 < TheWeasel> They're hilarious
2008-04-10 11:55 < IceKarma> TheWeasel, I believe it's on purpose, and the chooser was the image creator
2008-04-10 11:55 < TheWeasel> it's honestly creative.
2008-04-10 11:56 < IceKarma> I put it down to a reaction against traditional boring font samples, myself
2008-04-10 11:56 < IceKarma> but I've been told I give people way too much credit
2008-04-10 11:56 < Krimpet> ooh, where?
2008-04-10 11:56 < TheWeasel> hm... Akzidenz Grotesk looks like the font used in Tegel Airport signs
2008-04-10 11:56 < IceKarma> TheWeasel, it might just be
2008-04-10 11:57 < klwei> HELP!
2008-04-10 11:57 < klwei> ;)
2008-04-10 11:57 < TheWeasel> there should be a list of "notable uses"
2008-04-10 11:57 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-04-10 11:58 < Leslie_S> IceKarma professional wrestling ever was?
2008-04-10 11:58 < IceKarma> TheWeasel, well, sometimes, it's not always possible to conclusively identify a font from samples, and even finding out who the designer is, never mind finding out exactly which face they used, may not even be possible
2008-04-10 11:58 < TheWeasel> heh, yea.
2008-04-10 11:59 < TheWeasel> Eurostile is the one used for the Tour de France
2008-04-10 11:59 < TheWeasel> this is fasinating :-)
2008-04-10 11:59 < klwei> call me if you need me
2008-04-10 11:59 < TheWeasel> haha "accès aux avions"... Frutiger, the elegant airport script
2008-04-10 12:00 < IceKarma> for instance, there's endless versions of Times, and the differences between them can be so slight you'd need an enormous volume of samples
2008-04-10 12:00 < TheWeasel> it oozes trust
2008-04-10 12:00 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-04-10 12:00 < treepie> So, I am quite literally starving myself in protest against WP, and no one cares?
2008-04-10 12:01 < Cyrius> why should we?
2008-04-10 12:01 < treepie> I posted pictures.
2008-04-10 12:01 < IceKarma> TheWeasel, and some of the fonts you have installed and are recognizing may be knockoffs of the real fonts used in the samples you cite
2008-04-10 12:01 < nsh> if you next of kin sends picture of your emaciated body and your final letter of resignation and bitter angst
2008-04-10 12:02 < nsh> i might care enough to check them out
2008-04-10 12:02 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-04-10 12:02 < IceKarma> TheWeasel, but you haven't yet named any fonts which I know offhand are aliases for others
2008-04-10 12:02 < treepie> why should you? Well, perhaps, if you had ethics, you might care that some violent thug is threatening violence for the 'good' of WP.
2008-04-10 12:02 < TheWeasel> ah, Optima, love it
2008-04-10 12:03 < TheWeasel> though it became bit of a cliché in printing here
2008-04-10 12:03 < TheWeasel> kind of like a bookprinting Comic Sans
2008-04-10 12:03 < IceKarma> heh
2008-04-10 12:03 < TheWeasel> (which I don't love)
2008-04-10 12:04 * IceKarma loathes, detests, hates, doesn't have strong enough words for, Comic Sans.
2008-04-10 12:04 < treepie> And I can prove it.
2008-04-10 12:04 < TheWeasel> oh, Univers the old font of ZDF
2008-04-10 12:05 * Cyrius can't make any sense of this
2008-04-10 12:06 < IceKarma> Cyrius?
2008-04-10 12:06 < treepie> No one cares that someone calling himself or herself 'Anonymous Wikipedian' is threatening to cut people's fingers off for the 'good' of WP?
2008-04-10 12:06 < Cyrius> I can't do anything about it
2008-04-10 12:06 < TheWeasel> Oh, Prestige, I remember that from the 1980s
2008-04-10 12:07 < treepie> Cyrius: Yes, you can. The Oversight policy needs changing.
2008-04-10 12:07 < Cyrius> I don't follow.
2008-04-10 12:07 < TheWeasel> Something similar was used in electric typewriters
2008-04-10 12:08 < Cyrius> "A hunger strike cannot be effective if the fact that it is being undertaken is not publicized so as to be known by the people who are to be impressed, concerned or embarrassed by it."
2008-04-10 12:08 < treepie> WP outed me, then AW threatened me with violence, having found said outing, and I still can't get my personal info Oversighted. I don't imagine most other people WP doesn't like are having much luck either.
2008-04-10 12:08 < treepie> This clearly proves that the Oversight policy is woefully inadequate, and needs changing.
2008-04-10 12:08 < Cyrius> I honestly have no idea what you're talking about
2008-04-10 12:09 < treepie> Cyrius: The WP community *should* be embarrassed. Though obviously, that doesn't mean they are.
2008-04-10 12:10 * Cyrius is merely confused
2008-04-10 12:10 < treepie> Cyrius: Violent threats published here: http://forum.encyc.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=76 Charles Matthews can confirm.
2008-04-10 12:10 < treepie> AW: 'No. If you share any of my emails, I will find AB and she will suffer greatly. Is that perfectly clear?'
2008-04-10 12:11 < treepie> AW: 'Please assume good faith. I am doing this for the good of Wikipedia.'
2008-04-10 12:11 * soufron_ hello
2008-04-10 12:11 < treepie> AW: 'If you do not delete the Editors discussion area, I will turn Armed Blowfish black and blue when I find her.'
2008-04-10 12:12 < treepie> AW: 'But, do you think Blue Aardvark would delete some of their articles on Wikipedia admins if I threatened to give Armed Blowfish a few broken bones?'
2008-04-10 12:12 < treepie> AW: 'I seriously will cover Armed Blowfish in bruises if you do not delete the Editors section.'
2008-04-10 12:12 < Cyrius> what exactly am I supposed to be able to do about this person?
2008-04-10 12:13 < treepie> AW: 'Either discredit her, or I will see that she loses her fingers.'
2008-04-10 12:13 * TheWeasel puts someone on ignore
2008-04-10 12:13 < Cyrius> TheWeasel: I hope it's not me =O
2008-04-10 12:13 < TheWeasel> no
2008-04-10 12:13 < TheWeasel> :-)
2008-04-10 12:13 < treepie> Cyrius: I want WP to takes measures to prevent the same sort of thing from happening again.
2008-04-10 12:14 < treepie> 'An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.'
2008-04-10 12:14 < Cyrius> Wikipedia does not and cannot guarantee anonymity
2008-04-10 12:14 < treepie> Cyrius: But WP can use Oversight, when people specifically ask for it.
2008-04-10 12:15 < Cyrius> by the time it is needed, it will be too late
2008-04-10 12:16 < Cyrius> oversight can't overcome somebody having saved information to their computer
2008-04-10 12:16 < treepie> Cyrius: The idea is to Oversight personal information *before* there are threats of violence.
2008-04-10 12:16 < treepie> Which was entirely possible, seeing as how my personal information was there many months before being found by AW.
2008-04-10 12:16 < Cyrius> how are we supposed to know what information to remove?
2008-04-10 12:17 < treepie> Cyrius: If the subject of the personal information asks for it to be removed, that's a fairly sure sign.
2008-04-10 12:19 < treepie> WR, the so-called outing site, made reference to said personal info, but removed that upon my request. However, when I talked to OTRS, an arbitrator decided to publicly draw more attention to said material.
2008-04-10 12:20 < treepie> Should WP not be embarrassed that WR, the supposed BADSITE, has more respect for privacy than WP does?
2008-04-10 12:20 < Cyrius> I don't recall Wikipedia claiming to respect privacy
2008-04-10 12:21 < treepie> Cyrius: Did you see the BADSITES arbitration?
2008-04-10 12:21 < Cyrius> I don't pay attention to politics
2008-04-10 12:22 < treepie> Cyrius: Basically, WR is, on WP, consider by many to be an evil 'attack site' that outs WP admins. (Note that I don't consider this an accurate picture, but that's what people say.)
2008-04-10 12:22 < treepie> Outing meaning publication of personal information.
2008-04-10 12:24 < TheWeasel> Ah... mob rule
2008-04-10 12:24 < TheWeasel> :-/
2008-04-10 12:25 < treepie> But WP has a tiered standard. Most of the people in power at WP have very great respect for the privacy of WP admins, even getting very angry about things that don't actually qualify as outing, some respect for the privacy of regular WP editors, little respect for other people's privacy, and negative respect for the privacy of banned users, alleged sockpuppets, and WP critics.
2008-04-10 12:27 < treepie> This is bad. The privacy of all non-public figures, be they WP admins or WP critics, needs to be equally respected.
2008-04-10 12:28 < TheWeasel> I guess there's an unexplained different treatment between "personal enquiry" into non-disclosed information and abuse of information people do choose to disclose.
2008-04-10 12:28 < TheWeasel> but besides that, I dunno.
2008-04-10 12:29 < treepie> TheWeasel: Well, I generally only consider the former to be actual 'outing'.
2008-04-10 12:30 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-04-10 12:30 < TheWeasel> it's the question to hold the system responsible for something that essentially happens outside the rules.
2008-04-10 12:30 < TheWeasel> and is only "made possible" by it
2008-04-10 12:31 < treepie> Anyway, even if you don't have adminship or Oversight, assuming you are not blocked or banned, you can go edit this: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hiding_revisions#Policy
2008-04-10 12:31 < Cyrius> if you get outed, you get outed
2008-04-10 12:31 < Cyrius> it's kinda hard to undo
2008-04-10 12:32 < TheWeasel> heh, yes
2008-04-10 12:32 < TheWeasel> aliquid haeret
2008-04-10 12:32 < Cyrius> wha?
2008-04-10 12:32 < TheWeasel> just as taking something back is never as powerful as asserting something
2008-04-10 12:32 < Cyrius> I was just thinking of the [[Streisand effect]]
2008-04-10 12:33 < treepie> 'it's the question to hold the system responsible for something that essentially happens outside the rules and is only "made possible" by it' Well, people at WP have blamed Daniel Brandt for this which he himself did not do, but followed his HM publications. Why should I not hold WP to the standards it applies to its critics?
2008-04-10 12:33 * Cyrius tries to find out what "aliquid haeret" means
2008-04-10 12:33 < treepie> Cyrius: It depends on how publicly you get outed. And with outing, the number of people who see it *does* matter.
2008-04-10 12:33 < TheWeasel> I generally agree with you.
2008-04-10 12:34 < TheWeasel> but it's practically impossible to prevent
2008-04-10 12:34 < TheWeasel> the internet is the wild west.
2008-04-10 12:34 < treepie> TheWeasel: You can't prevent outing, but you can pressure the Oversight people to actually use their Oversight buttons when requested to do so.
2008-04-10 12:35 < TheWeasel> there are obviously situation where their discretion is lowered to a degree that they HAVE to, otherwise they wouldn't have a reason to exist, yes.
2008-04-10 12:37 < treepie> Said personal information has *already* been used to threaten me with physical violence. One violent thug after me is already one too many, so I don't want a second to find it. But still, they won't Oversight it.
2008-04-10 12:37 < treepie> So, it would seem they have unlimited discretion to say 'no'.
2008-04-10 12:37 < TheWeasel> Yep.
2008-04-10 12:38 < treepie> Which makes the Oversight policy rather worthless.
2008-04-10 12:38 < treepie> Ergo, you should attempt to change the Oversight policy.
2008-04-10 12:38 < TheWeasel> I agree that there's too many thoughts towards an idea, and too few towards people.
2008-04-10 12:38 < TheWeasel> brb.
2008-04-10 12:46 < Cyrius> "It's hard to imagine Indian food without chili peppers, and indeed I've read that many Indians refuse to accept that chili peppers are not indigenous to their part of the world."
2008-04-10 12:47 < treepie> South American chili peppers aren't acceptable?
2008-04-10 12:48 < Cyrius> american chili peppers are the only indigenous kind there are
2008-04-10 12:52 < treepie> ... Was that from a WP article?
2008-04-10 12:52 < Cyrius> was what?
2008-04-10 12:53 < treepie> Your quote. What other 'encyclopaedia' would be so riddled with inaccuracies.
2008-04-10 12:54 < Cyrius> it wasn't from any encyclopedia, it just seemed interesting
2008-04-10 12:54 < White_Cat> Cyrius well
2008-04-10 12:54 < treepie> Ah.
2008-04-10 12:54 < White_Cat> I dont know anything about indian food
2008-04-10 12:55 < Riana|AFK> not all Indian food is hot o.O
2008-04-10 12:55 < cimon> Does anyone here know Muammar Qaddafis dads name... apart from the grammar (the article says pretends ungrammatically), are there any reliable sources that say he was the product of a short fling by a French Corsican dude?
2008-04-10 12:55 < Riana|AFK> Indian food is only hot when we're giving it to foreigners
2008-04-10 12:55 < Cyrius> White_Cat: and?
2008-04-10 12:55 < Cyrius> Riana|AFK: I knew it!
2008-04-10 12:56 < Riana|AFK> you think we eat that crap? lol
2008-04-10 12:56 < cimon> I think it is ungrammatical, and definitely thre is a BLP issue there..
2008-04-10 12:56 < White_Cat> Cyrius I need more explanation
2008-04-10 12:56 < Cyrius> chili (con carne) isn't that hot either
2008-04-10 12:57 < Cyrius> that's something yankees do
2008-04-10 12:57 < Cyrius> White_Cat: explanation of what?
2008-04-10 12:57 < cimon> Cyrius, we have btw a very fine article on hte scale of hotness of peppers. I just forget it atm.
2008-04-10 12:58 < Cyrius> [[Scoville scale]]
2008-04-10 12:58 < cimon> right
2008-04-10 12:58 < Arwen> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/10/1516254&from=rss <-- our scientists are taking steroids!!!!
2008-04-10 12:59 < pip> Hello all
2008-04-10 12:59 < treepie> So The_Weasel is apparently gone....
2008-04-10 12:59 < _kmh_> our ?
2008-04-10 13:00 < _kmh_> as in wikipedia on steroids ?
2008-04-10 13:00 < Cyrius> Arwen: I was on provigil briefly, all it did was make my urine stink
2008-04-10 13:01 < IceKarma> ... Provigil isn't a steroid?
2008-04-10 13:01 < Working_Cat> no
2008-04-10 13:01 < Cyrius> it's a "stay awake" drug
2008-04-10 13:02 * TheWeasel wants to know which fonts GDR road signs used
2008-04-10 13:02 < Cyrius> "Modafinil [Provigil] is widely used off-label to suppress the need for sleep. It is also used off-label in combating general fatigue unrelated to lack of sleep such as in treating ADHD and as an adjunct to antidepressants (particularly in individuals with significant residual fatigue)"
2008-04-10 13:02 < IceKarma> TheWeasel, show me
2008-04-10 13:02 < TheWeasel> one of my profs used it for presentations so it still seems to be around
2008-04-10 13:02 < treepie> The_Weasel, you are back.
2008-04-10 13:02 < TheWeasel> http://www.geocities.com/marcelmonterie_d/F7.jpg
2008-04-10 13:03 < treepie> You should edit this policy: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hiding_revisions#Policy
2008-04-10 13:03 * TheWeasel has no standing in Wikipedia, thank goodness.
2008-04-10 13:03 < treepie> In other words, you can't edit policies....
2008-04-10 13:04 < TheWeasel> Gill Sans, it seems
2008-04-10 13:04 < TheWeasel> or a derivative thereof
2008-04-10 13:04 < treepie> *Someone* should edit the policy.
2008-04-10 13:04 < ShakespeareFan00> Which policy?
2008-04-10 13:04 < treepie> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hiding_revisions#Policy
2008-04-10 13:04 < TheWeasel> privacy stuff
2008-04-10 13:05 * Cyrius doesn't see what's wrong with it
2008-04-10 13:06 < treepie> It fails at protecting people from threats of physical violence. That's what's wrong with it.
2008-04-10 13:06 < Cyrius> how would it?
2008-04-10 13:06 < Cyrius> mediawiki is not magic
2008-04-10 13:06 < nsh> wow
2008-04-10 13:06 < nsh> really
2008-04-10 13:07 < nsh> same conversation?
2008-04-10 13:07 < treepie> Firstly, in needs to protect not only high-ranking WP members, but everyone, including people the higher-ranking WP members hate.
2008-04-10 13:07 < Cyrius> nsh: it started again
2008-04-10 13:07 < treepie> Secondly, it needs to cover a broader spectrum of types of personal information.
2008-04-10 13:07 < nsh> more's t'pity
2008-04-10 13:07 < Cyrius> seems fairly broad
2008-04-10 13:08 < Ceiling_Cat> "it"?
2008-04-10 13:08 < treepie> it being the policy.
2008-04-10 13:08 < Cyrius> Ceiling_Cat: treepie has been going on about oversight and threats of violence
2008-04-10 13:09 < ShakespeareFan00> Oversight also ought to cover hate-speech
2008-04-10 13:09 < treepie> 'Removal of non-public personal information such as phone numbers, home addresses, workplaces or identities of pseudonymous or anonymous individuals who have not made their identity public, or of public individuals who have not made that personal information public.' What about IP addresses, e-mail addresses, names or pseudonyms of people who could provide personal information about the person, geographic locations, details of people's s
2008-04-10 13:10 < Cyrius> wikipedia publishes IP addresses itself
2008-04-10 13:10 < treepie> Cyrius: I know, Checkusers have been known to use Checkuser to out people's IP addresses, in the block log. That should also be stopped.
2008-04-10 13:11 < Cyrius> IP address is not private
2008-04-10 13:11 < treepie> Cyrius: IP addresses are geo-locatable.
2008-04-10 13:11 < treepie> (Though some IP addresses are more geo-locatable than others.)
2008-04-10 13:11 < Cyrius> if you think it is, you fail to understand how the internet works
2008-04-10 13:11 < IceKarma> your IP address is no more private than your phone number is
2008-04-10 13:12 < ShakespeareFan00> IP addres are public, and are non geo-locatable
2008-04-10 13:12 < IceKarma> and if you think caller ID blocking makes your phone number private, let me laugh
2008-04-10 13:12 < wimt_away> Every time you send an email you are sending people your IP address.
2008-04-10 13:12 < ShakespeareFan00> If you are worried about cyber-attacks ad DDos say so
2008-04-10 13:12 < treepie> Cyrius: I do understand how the internet works, that's why I'm using Tor.
2008-04-10 13:12 < Cyrius> ShakespeareFan00: worried about actual threats of violence
2008-04-10 13:13 < ShakespeareFan00> As in "You revert me again you f****n c***t , I swear I'm going to blow your brain away?" type comments?
2008-04-10 13:13 < Cyrius> more like "I know where you live and I'm going to cut your fingers off"
2008-04-10 13:14 < treepie> ShakespeareFan00: As in this: http://forum.encyc.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=76
2008-04-10 13:14 < treepie> ... for the good of WP.
2008-04-10 13:14 < treepie> (At least according to the violent thug.)
2008-04-10 13:15 < ShakespeareFan00> WR is involved... I am not even going to bother
2008-04-10 13:15 < ShakespeareFan00> :(
2008-04-10 13:15 < Ceiling_Cat> ah
2008-04-10 13:15 < Ceiling_Cat> thanks Cyrius
2008-04-10 13:15 < treepie> What? Do WR members deserve to have their fingers cut off?
2008-04-10 13:16 < treepie> I think not.
2008-04-10 13:16 < Cyrius> <treepie> Hunger strike for a change in Oversight policy: http://forum.encyc.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=90
2008-04-10 13:17 < ShakespeareFan00> treepie; Possibly not
2008-04-10 13:17 < ShakespeareFan00> but that comment seemed to have come under duress from reading the chain of related mails
2008-04-10 13:18 * Cyrius doesn't see how Wikipedia can stop some crazy person
2008-04-10 13:18 < ShakespeareFan00> and the onging issues between Wikipedia, WR and other accountability 'entities'
2008-04-10 13:18 < treepie> Which comment came under duress?
2008-04-10 13:18 < ShakespeareFan00> treepie: Shoudl we oversight all information on celebs because some lunatic wants to off them?
2008-04-10 13:18 < ShakespeareFan00> treepie: I can see a few
2008-04-10 13:18 < ShakespeareFan00> but then I am not a lawyer
2008-04-10 13:18 < treepie> I'm not a public figure.
2008-04-10 13:19 < ShakespeareFan00> or a threapist
2008-04-10 13:19 < treepie> Celebrities are, and theoretically have enough money to hire people to protect them.
2008-04-10 13:22 < quanticle> treepie: Not necessarily, especially in the age of internet celebrities. If you were the Star Wars Kid, do you think you'd have enough money to get that kind of protection?
2008-04-10 13:22 < Cyrius> that's what lightsabres are for
2008-04-10 13:22 * quanticle wonders why treepie is voiced
2008-04-10 13:23 < Cyrius> quanticle: tor is silenced
2008-04-10 13:23 < treepie> quanticle: I mean real celebrities... the kind who make loads of money.
2008-04-10 13:23 < quanticle> treepie: Fame != fortune
2008-04-10 13:23 < OverlordQ> vive le CCW/CHL
2008-04-10 13:23 < quanticle> treepie: You can be a "real" celebrity and still be poor
2008-04-10 13:23 < quanticle> OverlordQ: CCW/CHL?
2008-04-10 13:23 < treepie> When it comes to rock stars and actors, fame generally is fortune.
2008-04-10 13:24 < Cyrius> OverlordQ: people who are suffering from self-induced starvation can't hold a firearm steadily
2008-04-10 13:24 < OverlordQ> ah, true
2008-04-10 13:24 < Cyrius> quanticle: concealed handgun permit abbreviations
2008-04-10 13:24 < OverlordQ> well fine, it'd be for the rest of us 'non-real'celebrities :P
2008-04-10 13:24 < quanticle> treepie: That's true, but you don't have to be rich to to be famous, or famous to be rich
2008-04-10 13:24 < quanticle> Cyrius: Ah. I see.
2008-04-10 13:25 < quanticle> treepie: I'm asking what do you do if you're famous, but not rich enough to afford protection?
2008-04-10 13:25 < ShakespeareFan00> In relation to the matter treepie mentions the AW mentioned of course doesn't do themselves any favours making apparent physcial threats
2008-04-10 13:25 < ShakespeareFan00> and as one of the contributors says, possible police matter
2008-04-10 13:25 < Working_Cat> quanticle: like Rick Astley
2008-04-10 13:25 < Working_Cat> ?
2008-04-10 13:25 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: True enough.
2008-04-10 13:25 < quanticle> Working_Cat: Yeah.
2008-04-10 13:25 < Working_Cat> i mean he has a REAL problem on his hands
2008-04-10 13:25 < quanticle> Working_Cat: Or the Numa Numa guy
2008-04-10 13:26 < ShakespeareFan00> It's not the job of Wikipedia to act as a de-facto policeman.. WP:OFFICE responds to judgments proved to judcial standards though:) (robustly)
2008-04-10 13:26 < treepie> WP's standards of 'notability' are ridiculously low, but I mean real public figures, not just minor figures WP insists on having articles on even if they specifically ask to opt out.
2008-04-10 13:27 < treepie> ShakespeareFan00: I'm not asking for AW to be prosecuted, I'm asking for WP to cease outing me.
2008-04-10 13:27 < ShakespeareFan00> You are Daniel Brandt and I claim my five Wiki Pounds ;)
2008-04-10 13:27 < Working_Cat> i mean, some deranged psycho could take severe offence at being rickrolled, and would decide to roll the roller as well as rick off the cliff
2008-04-10 13:27 < treepie> No, I am not Daniel Brandt.
2008-04-10 13:27 < ShakespeareFan00> Note the similey :)
2008-04-10 13:27 < treepie> Click on the hunger strike link: It should be obvious that I am a woman.
2008-04-10 13:27 < treepie> Oh.
2008-04-10 13:27 < ShakespeareFan00> I do see where you are coming from partially
2008-04-10 13:28 < ShakespeareFan00> but no-one is truly anonmous online
2008-04-10 13:28 < ShakespeareFan00> espeically in the US.
2008-04-10 13:28 < Arwen> ShakespeareFan00, that's not true. If you don't have a name, that makes you anonymous.
2008-04-10 13:28 < treepie> I'm not trying to be anonymous. I'm trying to be pseudonymous.
2008-04-10 13:28 < ShakespeareFan00> If you feel Wp is outing take it up with OFFICE
2008-04-10 13:28 < treepie> Been there, done that.
2008-04-10 13:29 < ShakespeareFan00> And thier view was?
2008-04-10 13:29 < treepie> Well, someone from OTRS blanked it, but then an arbitrator decided to publicly attack me for asking it to be blanked, thereby drawing more attention to the material.
2008-04-10 13:30 < ShakespeareFan00> Intresting
2008-04-10 13:30 < treepie> I e-mailed ArbCom... took about a month to get a response, and they said something about the good of the community.
2008-04-10 13:30 < ShakespeareFan00> Why was it blanked? (sound like out of procedure deletion)
2008-04-10 13:30 < ShakespeareFan00> And then you took it to OFFICE?
2008-04-10 13:31 < treepie> No, the OTRS member blanked it.
2008-04-10 13:31 < treepie> OTRS = OFFICE ?
2008-04-10 13:31 < ShakespeareFan00> I mean WP:OFFICE which should nominaly be above Arbcom and OTRS
2008-04-10 13:32 < ShakespeareFan00> JImbo->Office -> Board-> OTRS-> admins -> editors-> users in decreasing power....
2008-04-10 13:32 < treepie> I've complained on wikien-l... David Gerard at least hates me and is probably quite happy that WP is hurting me, and he is a moderator on Wikien-l.
2008-04-10 13:32 < treepie> I've complained on WR....
2008-04-10 13:32 < ShakespeareFan00> Have you tried putting all thin writing to the Foundation?
2008-04-10 13:33 < treepie> I've spoken to a number of Oversighters.
2008-04-10 13:33 < ShakespeareFan00> Complaining on Wikipedia Review may be counter productive... Wikipediad and WR have a longstanding love-hate realtionship
2008-04-10 13:33 < treepie> The Foundation? I thought they did not do anything unless you threatened to sue?
2008-04-10 13:33 < _kmh_> treepie : ic nothing wrong with having articles on minor figures as long as they are proper articles (no pov,self promotion,ads,factual errors, etc)
2008-04-10 13:33 < ShakespeareFan00> _kmh_: And notable...
2008-04-10 13:33 < ShakespeareFan00> MY gran is not notable
2008-04-10 13:34 < ShakespeareFan00> A relative that made Fagin's nose for a film is
2008-04-10 13:34 < treepie> ShakespeareFan00: Complaining on WR is better than being a doormat and just letting them abuse you without protesting about it.
2008-04-10 13:34 < _kmh_> ShakespeareFan00 : yes, but notable is a somewhat "soft" criteria
2008-04-10 13:34 < ShakespeareFan00> treepie: If you have a justfied case, I am sure that someone in the Foundation ought to take it seriously
2008-04-10 13:35 < _kmh_> ShakespeareFan00 : writing about your gran, would probably self promotion in a generalized sense (promoting your family or friends)
2008-04-10 13:35 < ShakespeareFan00> if not then perhaps you do need to consider the legal option
2008-04-10 13:35 < treepie> _kmh_: But they often aren't proper articles. WP is often used as a revenge platform by enemies of the subjects.
2008-04-10 13:36 < ShakespeareFan00> ROFL
2008-04-10 13:36 < MrFish> [citation needed]
2008-04-10 13:36 < _kmh_> treepie : yes but again that is a different problem/issue
2008-04-10 13:36 < ShakespeareFan00> There's a big difference between outing, and justified public comment on a contrversial figure
2008-04-10 13:36 < treepie> Everything from fly-by vandals accusing subjects of paedophilia to long-standing editors carefully digging through sources and presenting the information therein in the worst possible light.
2008-04-10 13:36 < _kmh_> treepie : the proble here is _not_ being minor, but revenge or not being a proper article
2008-04-10 13:36 < ShakespeareFan00> treepie: You do know you can fix Wikipedia
2008-04-10 13:36 < ShakespeareFan00> :)
2008-04-10 13:37 < _kmh_> treepie : unfortunately people of mix those in deletion discussions
2008-04-10 13:37 < treepie> ShakespeareFan09: No, I can't. WP loves banning people who want to fix it.
2008-04-10 13:37 < treepie> Like Moulton.
2008-04-10 13:37 < ShakespeareFan00> ROFL
2008-04-10 13:37 < ShakespeareFan00> ROFL
2008-04-10 13:37 < ShakespeareFan00> ROFL
2008-04-10 13:37 < ShakespeareFan00> ROFL
2008-04-10 13:37 < ShakespeareFan00> I help fix Wikipedia and I don't get banned :)
2008-04-10 13:37 < _kmh_> moulton ?
2008-04-10 13:37 < ShakespeareFan00> I've often added {{fact}} tags
2008-04-10 13:38 < ShakespeareFan00> as well as removing copyvio links :)
2008-04-10 13:38 < treepie> ShakespeareFan00: If something is defamatory, a fact tag isn't enough. It needs to be removed, and fast.
2008-04-10 13:38 < ShakespeareFan00> Who do you think was responsible for a mass loss of images 6 months ago ?
2008-04-10 13:38 < ShakespeareFan00> treepie: Defamation is for the courts to decide
2008-04-10 13:38 < treepie> Moulton: http://wikipediareview.com/blog/20080405/so-i-am-disgusted-with-wikipedia/
2008-04-10 13:38 < _kmh_> ShakespeareFan00 : do we need to spank you ?:-P
2008-04-10 13:39 < Cyrius> _kmh_: no, we just need to stick some chocks under him so he stops rolling
2008-04-10 13:39 < treepie> 'Previous Wikipedia Review editorials have exposed Wikipedia’s failure to apply basic ethical standards when writing about living people, and its capacity to cause serious harm to the reputations of the subjects of their biographies. This post reviews the efforts of Barry Kort (Wikipedia user name: Moulton), an academic who is currently a Visiting Scientist at MIT’s Media Lab, and examines the problems he encountered improving the Wi
2008-04-10 13:39 < ShakespeareFan00> It is not the job of Wikipedia to self-censor on the basis of Daily Mail's readerhsip
2008-04-10 13:39 < ShakespeareFan00> OK Obviously false satments should be removed...
2008-04-10 13:40 < ShakespeareFan00> And to be fair I have removed stuff that looked iffy from time to time