freenode #wikipedia

2008-04-03 08:00 < TheWeasel> Looking at the US I can only chuckle about the stir it caused.
2008-04-03 08:00 < Leslie_S> The359 winn dixie, who fired a transgender employee who was crossdressing at HOME?
2008-04-03 08:00 < TheWeasel> we're quaint in terms of turbo capitalism
2008-04-03 08:01 < TheWeasel> That would be impossible here.
2008-04-03 08:01 < TheWeasel> (legally)
2008-04-03 08:01 < TheWeasel> they could try it I guess, and speculate that the person hasn't got the funds to go after them in court
2008-04-03 08:01 < Leslie_S> TheWeasel in most of the us, you can fire anyone for anything. of course, for some things you have to lie, and just say you dont have a reason (which is legal). just as long as you dont fire anyone for being disabled, black, or gay.
2008-04-03 08:01 < NotACow> Leslie_S: cute.
2008-04-03 08:02 < TheWeasel> Yep, I heard.
2008-04-03 08:02 < Leslie_S> infact, walmart has a history of firing disabled people.
2008-04-03 08:02 < Leslie_S> at our walmart, a girl ripped the tendons in her leg when she fell on ice coming into work.
2008-04-03 08:02 < Leslie_S> walmart refused to pay for it, because she wasnt a customer, and she wasnt an associate (because she wasnt on the clock)
2008-04-03 08:02 < TheWeasel> And the burden of proof is probably on the "minority member" to show that they discriminated
2008-04-03 08:02 < Leslie_S> and then she got it taken care of
2008-04-03 08:02 < Leslie_S> comes into work
2008-04-03 08:02 < TheWeasel> and is fired.
2008-04-03 08:02 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-04-03 08:03 < Leslie_S> and is told that the cast is interfering with her job (as a cashier), and fired.
2008-04-03 08:03 < NotACow> Leslie_S: that winn dixie case was from 2000
2008-04-03 08:03 < Leslie_S> you can fucking sit down and do that job.
2008-04-03 08:03 < Leslie_S> and she was like the best cashier they had too..
2008-04-03 08:03 < TheWeasel> for things like that, but mostly for the passive resistance to unionization, Wal-Mart were driven out of Germany.
2008-04-03 08:03 < Leslie_S> but how can you have a half a million dollar per-accident accident insurance policy, and refuse to pay for shit like that?
2008-04-03 08:04 < Leslie_S> TheWeasel passive resistance? passive?
2008-04-03 08:04 < NotACow> walmart paid a consent judgement of several million over discrimination on the basis of disability
2008-04-03 08:04 < Leslie_S> In orientation, we were shown a video which essentially said that unions are evil.
2008-04-03 08:04 < Leslie_S> and that walmart isnt anti union, they're pro associate.
2008-04-03 08:04 < Leslie_S> NotACow if this girl hasnt sued, shes a fucking idiot.
2008-04-03 08:04 < TheWeasel> Well, whenever a union ("business' council") formed in a branch, they shut it down.
2008-04-03 08:04 < TheWeasel> before it could get legally recognized.
2008-04-03 08:04 < Leslie_S> heh.
2008-04-03 08:05 < Leslie_S> oh, heres one
2008-04-03 08:05 < TheWeasel> which isn't always possible
2008-04-03 08:05 < NotACow> TheWeasel: the one store that certified a union in canada was immediately closed.
2008-04-03 08:05 < Leslie_S> Our walmart has never had in-store meat cutting.
2008-04-03 08:05 < Leslie_S> Last month, they decided it was a good idea to make it look like they do.
2008-04-03 08:05 < TheWeasel> yea... "for economic reasons"
2008-04-03 08:05 < TheWeasel> :-/
2008-04-03 08:05 < bumm13> Wal-Mart is fiercely anti-union
2008-04-03 08:05 < NotACow> this is why there are no wal-marts in chicago.
2008-04-03 08:05 < Leslie_S> Now, the meat department people have always worn white coats like they actually did something in the back
2008-04-03 08:06 < TheWeasel> heh
2008-04-03 08:06 < TheWeasel> Fake stains?
2008-04-03 08:06 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-04-03 08:06 < Leslie_S> but now they have these special carts, like places that actually cut meat have, and they have to open the case in the back, stick stickers on the items, put them on the cart, and then stock them.
2008-04-03 08:06 < Leslie_S> so it takes them like 20 minutes to get it out of the case and on their cart..
2008-04-03 08:06 < TheWeasel> oddness.
2008-04-03 08:07 < Leslie_S> TheWeasel actually, every few days, they have real stains. they take meat out of the package to prepare it for recycling, when they discard product.
2008-04-03 08:07 < TheWeasel> heh, yea.
2008-04-03 08:07 < Leslie_S> now
2008-04-03 08:07 < Leslie_S> this meat is shipped frozen
2008-04-03 08:07 < TheWeasel> that's the kind of stain people don't want to know details about
2008-04-03 08:07 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-04-03 08:07 < Leslie_S> and quite often its frozen until they put it on the floor
2008-04-03 08:07 < Leslie_S> ....
2008-04-03 08:07 < Leslie_S> real fresh there.
2008-04-03 08:07 < TheWeasel> Sure, but during discarding
2008-04-03 08:08 < TheWeasel> Oh, they discard the package
2008-04-03 08:08 < TheWeasel> I see
2008-04-03 08:08 < Leslie_S> erm
2008-04-03 08:08 < Leslie_S> they discard the package and put the meat in a meat can
2008-04-03 08:08 < TheWeasel> yea.
2008-04-03 08:08 < Leslie_S> which is like a trash can, except it says INEDIBLE on it
2008-04-03 08:08 < Leslie_S> and then a truck that looks just like a garbage truck comes and picks it up every week.
2008-04-03 08:09 < TheWeasel> the rubbish of abundance :-/ but that's true everywhere in the western world.
2008-04-03 08:09 < Leslie_S> TheWeasel what would you suggest?
2008-04-03 08:09 < Leslie_S> eating the bad meat?
2008-04-03 08:09 < zocky> they probably burn it and feed it to the cows
2008-04-03 08:09 < TheWeasel> it's nobody's fault.
2008-04-03 08:10 < TheWeasel> in Europe, for 25 years we discarded thousands of tons of butter every year.
2008-04-03 08:10 < TheWeasel> because there was severe overproduction
2008-04-03 08:10 < Leslie_S> TheWeasel well the meat gets eaten by something
2008-04-03 08:11 < Leslie_S> just not humans
2008-04-03 08:11 < zocky> now we don't have enough food, so the prices are going wild
2008-04-03 08:11 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-04-03 08:11 < NotACow> the deceased meat is reprocessed into pet food, slop, and shampoo, amongst other things.
2008-04-03 08:11 < arcimboldo_> Since milk production was subsidised ...
2008-04-03 08:11 < Leslie_S> NotACow slop?
2008-04-03 08:11 < NotACow> Leslie_S: a lot of it is used to make cosmetics and shampoo.
2008-04-03 08:11 < TheWeasel> it's called Butterberg in German, I don't know if there's a word in English
2008-04-03 08:11 < Leslie_S> ew
2008-04-03 08:11 < NotACow> Leslie_S: slop is feed for animals.
2008-04-03 08:11 < zocky> actually, we probably have enough food, it's just not as overabundant as it was
2008-04-03 08:11 < TheWeasel> yea, it was an entirely home-made problem.
2008-04-03 08:12 < NotACow> wheat is in short supply right now
2008-04-03 08:12 < NotACow> bad weather in india, apparently
2008-04-03 08:12 < Leslie_S> Dick is in short supply right now.
2008-04-03 08:12 < NotACow> wheat prices are just below all-time highs
2008-04-03 08:12 < Leslie_S> Too many cute boys have girlfriends. ;/
2008-04-03 08:12 < AdamBishop> mushrooms are in short supply due to cold weather in Alberta!
2008-04-03 08:12 < NotACow> Leslie_S: and yet the country has too much dick (cheney)
2008-04-03 08:12 < zocky> NotACow, lack of greed by supermarket owners is also in short supply, at least here
2008-04-03 08:12 < TheWeasel> the EU guaranteed to buy milk off farmers for a fixed price should the actual price sink below that line
2008-04-03 08:12 < AdamBishop> at least, in Alberta
2008-04-03 08:12 < arcimboldo_> So should I invest in oil, gold or wheat at the moment?
2008-04-03 08:12 < Leslie_S> NotACow ROFL
2008-04-03 08:12 < NotACow> arcimboldo_: invest in stupidity :)
2008-04-03 08:13 < bumm13> ick, commodoties
2008-04-03 08:13 < TheWeasel> Later we had the Milk Lake and the Meat Dump
2008-04-03 08:13 < bumm13> *commodities
2008-04-03 08:13 < Leslie_S> stupidity will always go up
2008-04-03 08:13 < TheWeasel> Gold is for economic cranks.
2008-04-03 08:13 < zocky> arcimboldo_, in times of hyperinflation of the total volume of money, gold is always a good bet
2008-04-03 08:13 < TheWeasel> Gold as a commodity in my mind is always connected with conspiracy theorists.
2008-04-03 08:13 < NotACow> zocky: i think gold is overvalued right now.
2008-04-03 08:14 < NotACow> zocky: it might go up for another six months, but it'll start to drop after that
2008-04-03 08:14 < arcimboldo_> Gold hadn't been a good investment until a few months ago.
2008-04-03 08:14 < bumm13> I figure if the U.S. dollar gets that damn hyperinflated, having gold investments won't do any damn good anyway :P
2008-04-03 08:14 < zocky> finite resources like gold have a relatively fixed value
2008-04-03 08:14 * TheWeasel stocks canned meat, it doesn't require water to eat and lasts for a long time
2008-04-03 08:14 < zocky> when the price of gold goes up, it means that the value of money has gone down
2008-04-03 08:14 < Leslie_S> TheWeasel that mostly doesnt actually sell at our store.
2008-04-03 08:15 < TheWeasel> I think faith in natural things is coded deep down in psyche
2008-04-03 08:15 < Leslie_S> we have the real nasty crap, like spam and potted meat, and i dont recall ever having to stock a case of potted meat?
2008-04-03 08:15 < bumm13> it also tends to have an inverse relationship to stock market valuation
2008-04-03 08:15 < TheWeasel> and crops up in survivalism especially
2008-04-03 08:15 < TheWeasel> heh yea
2008-04-03 08:15 < Leslie_S> we just clearanced out a couple shopping carts full of canned tuna though, 50 cents each.
2008-04-03 08:15 < TheWeasel> I don't know what contingency plan provides that.
2008-04-03 08:15 < TheWeasel> Wow.
2008-04-03 08:15 < bumm13> good ol' Fort Knox :P
2008-04-03 08:15 < NotACow> zocky: actually the intrinsic value of gold has gone up considerably in recent years because there are an increasingly large number of industrial uses for gold.
2008-04-03 08:16 < Leslie_S> we also clearanced out some $8 trail mix for 50 cents.
2008-04-03 08:16 < Leslie_S> and some energy drink 4 packs for 50 cents.
2008-04-03 08:16 < zocky> NotACow, it's still a much better measure for value than money
2008-04-03 08:16 < Leslie_S> oh, and in michigan you have to pay a deposit of 10 cents per can/bottle, so you pay as much deposit as you pay on the product
2008-04-03 08:16 < Leslie_S> (but you get the deposit back when you return it)
2008-04-03 08:16 < NotACow> zocky: yes, but not as pure as many people seem to think
2008-04-03 08:17 < NotACow> zocky: i've been meaning to make a chart of oil prices in XAU, but i haven't gotten around to gathering the data.
2008-04-03 08:17 < Leslie_S> the whole forced recycling thing in michigan is retarded.
2008-04-03 08:17 < zocky> well, of course, demand changes for fixed-total resources too
2008-04-03 08:17 < zocky> that's why land can be cheap or expensive
2008-04-03 08:17 < Leslie_S> here, we have these machines we feed our bottles in. Certain things like juice dont have deposits. they have trash cans next to the machines for these.
2008-04-03 08:17 < Leslie_S> see anything wrong with this picture?
2008-04-03 08:17 < NotACow> zocky: land prices mainly move due to speculation, these days
2008-04-03 08:18 < bumm13> I prefer to think of land prices as "expensive" and "more expensive" :-p
2008-04-03 08:18 < Leslie_S> And theres no easy way to recycle anything that doesnt have a deposit
2008-04-03 08:18 < TheWeasel> You can get real cheap credits, you know
2008-04-03 08:18 < TheWeasel> :-/
2008-04-03 08:18 < TheWeasel> wait
2008-04-03 08:18 < zocky> the real value of money vs. land is seen in places with relatively high demand, like cities
2008-04-03 08:18 < TheWeasel> Kredit = loan (I think)
2008-04-03 08:19 < TheWeasel> Hong Kong.
2008-04-03 08:19 < TheWeasel> now there's an expensive real estate market.
2008-04-03 08:19 < zocky> TheWeasel, yeah, and hipoteka (or however you spell that one) is mortgage, AFAICT
2008-04-03 08:19 < TheWeasel> Hypothek, yea
2008-04-03 08:19 < arcimboldo_> although mortgage has other meanings too.
2008-04-03 08:19 < arcimboldo_> I think you pay mortgage for your ex-wife
2008-04-03 08:19 < NotACow> mortgage means something like "little death"
2008-04-03 08:20 < bumm13> an apt meaning ;p
2008-04-03 08:20 < bumm13> arcimboldo: isn't that alimony?
2008-04-03 08:20 < TheWeasel> Hypothek has a very fixed meaning here
2008-04-03 08:20 < arcimboldo_> yeah
2008-04-03 08:20 < TheWeasel> there's also Grundschuld.
2008-04-03 08:20 < TheWeasel> differentiating the two is a favorite pet peeve of third-year law students
2008-04-03 08:20 < Greentryst> "little death" is best known as "petit morte", a euphemism for orgasm
2008-04-03 08:21 < zocky> probably more people get mortgages than loans for apartments these days here
2008-04-03 08:21 < zocky> it used to be the other way around until fairly recently
2008-04-03 08:22 < Leslie_S> whats the diff, zocky?
2008-04-03 08:22 < zocky> as mortgages became more common, loans have become much more expensive
2008-04-03 08:22 < NotACow> zocky: in this neck of the woods a "mortgage" is just a securitized loan.
2008-04-03 08:22 < zocky> Leslie_S, the difference is who owns and can sell your house
2008-04-03 08:22 < zocky> well, you "own" it in both cases
2008-04-03 08:23 < zocky> but with a loan ("kredit" in local speak), they can't repossess your house
2008-04-03 08:23 < NotACow> zocky: where i live if you have a mortgage, you own the house, but you can't sell it because the mortgage company will have placed a lien on it.
2008-04-03 08:23 < NotACow> and if you don't pay they can initiate a foreclosure process that takes months to complete.
2008-04-03 08:24 * White_Cat is bored
2008-04-03 08:24 < zocky> NotACow, yeah, works about the same way here. with a loan, your options are much more open
2008-04-03 08:24 < NotACow> zocky: virtually nobody gets an unsecured loan to pay for housing.
2008-04-03 08:25 < Working_Cat> meow?
2008-04-03 08:25 < NotACow> zocky: there are tax incentives to securitize the loan, not to menton you get massively lower rates
2008-04-03 08:25 < NotACow> zocky: a residential real estate loan will typically be around 6% with goood credit, while an unsecured loan will generally be around 10%
2008-04-03 08:25 < zocky> NotACow, I don't think we have the tax incentives, but the rates are definitely lower
2008-04-03 08:25 < Working_Cat> okay, anyone here have some VB6 knowledge?
2008-04-03 08:26 < Working_Cat> ... anyone?
2008-04-03 08:26 < NotACow> vb6 is evil.
2008-04-03 08:26 < Working_Cat> i know. but thats not the point.
2008-04-03 08:27 < zocky> NotACow, btw, that means that if you're earning money in euros and paying a mortgage in US, you're not actually paying any interest (the last couple of years)
2008-04-03 08:27 < NotACow> zocky: heh
2008-04-03 08:27 * TheWeasel wonders whether the former Yugoslav states have civil law
2008-04-03 08:28 < Working_Cat> TheWeasel: why wouldnt they?
2008-04-03 08:28 < zocky> TheWeasel, of course
2008-04-03 08:28 < TheWeasel> Because there could be common law influences from the dynamic younger people who made them back in the day.
2008-04-03 08:28 < zocky> TheWeasel, all of ex-yu is very austro-hungarian in many respects
2008-04-03 08:28 < TheWeasel> (just my speculation, I'm sure it happened elsewhere)
2008-04-03 08:28 < TheWeasel> Okay, fair.
2008-04-03 08:28 < TheWeasel> just making sure we're talking about comparable things :-)
2008-04-03 08:28 < zocky> law, education systems, etc.
2008-04-03 08:29 < TheWeasel> Even the UK is getting a lot more Romanized in the EU
2008-04-03 08:29 < HumbertHumbert> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline <-- Nowhere is it explained WHY this is done.
2008-04-03 08:30 < zocky> the UK is beyond fixing, IMO
2008-04-03 08:30 < Leslie_S> who was it in here that was talking about their ford focus the other day?
2008-04-03 08:30 < TheWeasel> Fixing to go to the great beyond?
2008-04-03 08:30 < zocky> they'll just have to break up the thing and fix individual parts, though I'm not sure if england can be fixed
2008-04-03 08:31 < zocky> they're the real-world example of a country being governed not much unlike wikipedia
2008-04-03 08:31 < TheWeasel> England is a nice example of what happens when you don't have a constitution to hold things together.
2008-04-03 08:31 < NotACow> england seems to work as well as any of those other crazy countries
2008-04-03 08:31 < TheWeasel> and still are judged by international standards.
2008-04-03 08:32 < TheWeasel> Crazy countries aren't necessarily the standard to measure yourself against :-D
2008-04-03 08:32 < zocky> NotACow, nah, they're screwing up majorly
2008-04-03 08:32 < NotACow> zocky: so does everyone else.
2008-04-03 08:33 < zocky> ok, real people visiting
2008-04-03 08:33 < zocky> bbl
2008-04-03 08:33 < arcimboldo_> Well, it seemed to work reasonably well before Thatcher
2008-04-03 08:33 < TheWeasel> o.o
2008-04-03 08:33 < arcimboldo_> (and nobody complained when they had to wait for the train for six hours)
2008-04-03 08:34 < TheWeasel> Callaghan's Britain was utterly chaotic.
2008-04-03 08:34 < TheWeasel> not that I'm going to defend Thatcher
2008-04-03 08:34 < TheWeasel> but in today's world, Maggie's program for the 1979 election sounds quite modest.
2008-04-03 08:34 < HumbertHumbert> http://youtube.com/watch?v=rHog9UD8RSU <-- What is the special effect at 00:50 and onwards called? Spectacular (and surprisingly casual) 3D in 1935 :S
2008-04-03 08:35 < arcimboldo_> Yeah, but the current Heathrow disaster seems to be a consequence of naive belief in the market as a wonder cure for everything
2008-04-03 08:35 < TheWeasel> there's something in between
2008-04-03 08:36 < arcimboldo_> And she also ruined the railway infrastructure ...
2008-04-03 08:36 < TheWeasel> that she did
2008-04-03 08:36 < TheWeasel> taking trains in the UK is ghastly.
2008-04-03 08:36 < NotACow> railway infrastructure wants to be ruined.
2008-04-03 08:36 < NotACow> it's simply the nature of railways to be broken down
2008-04-03 08:36 < HumbertHumbert> Everyone ignores me... :@
2008-04-03 08:36 * TheWeasel is a great fan of trains
2008-04-03 08:36 * arcimboldo_ slaps NotACow
2008-04-03 08:37 < TheWeasel> YEA RIGHT, FRAILWAYS, MORE LIKE
2008-04-03 08:37 < NotACow> the only way to get good, reliable railways is to have them run by mussolini
2008-04-03 08:37 < NotACow> and really, there are lots of other problems with that approach
2008-04-03 08:38 < TheWeasel> the Common Myths section in en.wiki states that Mussolini didn't make the railways run on time any more than they had been doing that before.
2008-04-03 08:38 < arcimboldo_> Mussolini? Does he run the Swiss and Japanese railways?
2008-04-03 08:38 < NotACow> TheWeasel: it's been said enough times such that it's true.
2008-04-03 08:39 < NotACow> TheWeasel: even if it's not. wikiality, dude!
2008-04-03 08:39 < Working_Cat> heh heh wikiality
2008-04-03 08:39 < TheWeasel> arcimboldo_: I see an Axis/Swiss gold conspiracy there
2008-04-03 08:39 < TheWeasel> Proof by constant repetition!
2008-04-03 08:39 < Working_Cat> that episode must have kicked up some serious activity here.
2008-04-03 08:39 < NotACow> DON'T BOTHER ME WITH REALITY
2008-04-03 08:40 < NotACow> Working_Cat: [[Elephant]] was protected for about a week, iirc.
2008-04-03 08:40 < toresbe> HumbertHumbert: What is it?
2008-04-03 08:40 < Working_Cat> haha
2008-04-03 08:40 < TheWeasel> the Bahn slogan after its privatization was "Die Bahn kommt"
2008-04-03 08:40 < toresbe> HumbertHumbert: is it a betty boop cartoon?
2008-04-03 08:40 < TheWeasel> "The Train Is Coming"
2008-04-03 08:40 < Aqwis> did it come?
2008-04-03 08:40 < toresbe> HumbertHumbert: oh. yep.
2008-04-03 08:41 < TheWeasel> people changed it to "Die Bahn kommt ... zu spät"
2008-04-03 08:41 < TheWeasel> "Train Is Coming ... Too Late"
2008-04-03 08:41 < toresbe> :)
2008-04-03 08:41 < Aqwis> heh
2008-04-03 08:41 < toresbe> TheWeasel: another good one was the inter-city ad by BA
2008-04-03 08:41 < TheWeasel> but in general, German rail is pretty reliable, if a bit expensive.
2008-04-03 08:42 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-04-03 08:42 < toresbe> Breakfast in New York... Lunch in London.
2008-04-03 08:42 < NotACow> toresbe: that's like instant travel
2008-04-03 08:42 < toresbe> and someone's scribbled under it "... Your baggage in Bermuda."
2008-04-03 08:42 < TheWeasel> hehe
2008-04-03 08:42 < NotACow> toresbe: since breakfast time in new york is lunchtime in london.
2008-04-03 08:42 < NotACow> hehe, that is funny
2008-04-03 08:43 < toresbe> NotACow: could've been the other way around
2008-04-03 08:43 * TheWeasel knows two airports in Britain, one small and well-run, the other a sprawling moloch
2008-04-03 08:43 < TheWeasel> (Stansted and Heathrow)
2008-04-03 08:44 < arcimboldo_> I know Stansted only since one of my flight was redirected there instead of Heathrow ...
2008-04-03 08:44 < arcimboldo_> We had to sit there and wait for several ours while refulling until Heathrow gave us a slot ...
2008-04-03 08:44 < arcimboldo_> Stansted seems completely dead ..
2008-04-03 08:45 < arcimboldo_> London City is nice though ...
2008-04-03 08:45 < Aqwis> stansted ain't exactly small compared to what i'm used to
2008-04-03 08:45 < Aqwis> largest airport i've ever been to
2008-04-03 08:46 < TheWeasel> Yea, killing time there isn't so great I guess
2008-04-03 08:46 < TheWeasel> hm... smallest airport I ever took off from might be here in Berlin, specifically Tempelhof.
2008-04-03 08:47 < TheWeasel> which they'll hopefully shut down soon
2008-04-03 08:47 < TheWeasel> (referendum is on)
2008-04-03 08:47 < Aqwis> 350k passengers
2008-04-03 08:47 < Aqwis> hmz
2008-04-03 08:47 < arcimboldo_> London City ... you wouldn't expect going to one of the world's largest cities and landing on an airport where the plane has to turn and roll back on the runway.
2008-04-03 08:47 < Aqwis> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TempelhofInterior.jpg
2008-04-03 08:48 < Aqwis> good old DDR
2008-04-03 08:48 < TheWeasel> it's not
2008-04-03 08:48 < TheWeasel> it's good old Fuhrer
2008-04-03 08:48 < Aqwis> oh
2008-04-03 08:48 < TheWeasel> the local Conservatives want to make it a UNESCO heritage site.
2008-04-03 08:49 < TheWeasel> it's an interesting place certainly, but for the people in the area it's a bloody nightmare
2008-04-03 08:52 * TheWeasel is against referenda in general, thus won't vote
2008-04-03 08:52 < TheWeasel> Brb, need food.
2008-04-03 08:52 < Aqwis> hmz
2008-04-03 08:52 < Aqwis> LCA is smaller than my local airport
2008-04-03 08:54 < TheWeasel> LCY is in Greenwich? Or even further afield?
2008-04-03 08:55 < arcimboldo_> London City is right in the middle of the city
2008-04-03 08:55 < Aqwis> oh, it's LCY
2008-04-03 08:55 < Aqwis> LCA would make more sense
2008-04-03 08:55 * arcimboldo_ remembers that it was a quite worryingly dramatic descent.
2008-04-03 08:56 < arcimboldo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_City_Airport#The_airport_today
2008-04-03 08:57 < HumbertHumbert> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline <-- Nowhere is it explained WHY this is done. Cans you explained?
2008-04-03 08:58 < White_Cat> any matlab gurus here?
2008-04-03 08:58 < uberpenguin> bleh matlab
2008-04-03 08:58 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: i know one but shes not here
2008-04-03 08:59 < White_Cat> Working_Cat when do you think she will return
2008-04-03 08:59 < White_Cat> and by here do you mean #wikipedia or your phisical location?
2008-04-03 08:59 < Working_Cat> both.
2008-04-03 08:59 < Working_Cat> and she cant "return" here cuz shes not been to either of the places.
2008-04-03 09:00 < Working_Cat> i dunno if she has irc, but i can ask her to come over if she has
2008-04-03 09:00 < White_Cat> or you can ask her behalf of me :)
2008-04-03 09:00 < AdamBishop> HumbertHumbert, what do you mean?
2008-04-03 09:00 < White_Cat> I have a few basic issues
2008-04-03 09:00 < AdamBishop> why do newspapers include a dateline?
2008-04-03 09:01 < uberpenguin> use mathematica, problem solved :3
2008-04-03 09:01 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: i have no matlab experience. so i might not be able to recreate the case properly. but still... can try
2008-04-03 09:01 < White_Cat> "how would you access every third row in a 10-by-10 matrix A"
2008-04-03 09:01 < arcimboldo_> "Robert Mugabe is now prepared to fight on".
2008-04-03 09:01 < White_Cat> mat(3,:) would return the 3rd
2008-04-03 09:02 < White_Cat> but I want every third
2008-04-03 09:02 < White_Cat> w/o using a loop
2008-04-03 09:02 < Working_Cat> so you want to access 1, 4, 7?
2008-04-03 09:02 < White_Cat> every third would be 3,6 and 9 I think
2008-04-03 09:02 < Lycurgus> arcimboldo_: says who?
2008-04-03 09:02 < arcimboldo_> BBC world
2008-04-03 09:02 < Working_Cat> well depends where you start. but why dont you want a loop?
2008-04-03 09:03 < White_Cat> Working_Cat there should be a trick to do this
2008-04-03 09:03 < White_Cat> or else I wouldn't be asked about it
2008-04-03 09:03 < arcimboldo_> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7327725.stm
2008-04-03 09:03 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: cool. i'll ask.
2008-04-03 09:04 < TheWeasel> ah, the perks of power.
2008-04-03 09:04 < Lycurgus> Mugabe 'prepared to face run-off'
2008-04-03 09:04 < TheWeasel> he knows he'll go on trial if he lets something petty as democratic elections get in the way of governing.
2008-04-03 09:04 < Lycurgus> is what I found.
2008-04-03 09:05 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: left her an offliner. now cross fingers and pray
2008-04-03 09:05 * White_Cat starts a church service
2008-04-03 09:05 < Lycurgus> which is different from what you queoted which indicated a possible nullification of the vote
2008-04-03 09:05 * TheWeasel always found the word "service" for that funny
2008-04-03 09:05 < arcimboldo_> Lycurgus: My quote above was from the TV transmission.
2008-04-03 09:05 < TheWeasel> it sounds like a cross-renting business
2008-04-03 09:06 < Lycurgus> doesn't matter, they're no better than NPR these days
2008-04-03 09:06 < Lycurgus> but makes sense that the print form would be better than the tv studio form
2008-04-03 09:10 < TheWeasel> well, the choice was between "a fight" and repression, which is not much of a fight if there's an army at your disposal
2008-04-03 09:13 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: maybe u already tried it... still... Google?
2008-04-03 09:14 < Working_Cat> heh, i just realized... shes still a grad student... she wouldnt even be up yet :D
2008-04-03 09:15 < TheWeasel> On what syllable is the Rome borough of Trastevere stressed?
2008-04-03 09:16 < arcimboldo_> The second I believe
2008-04-03 09:16 < TheWeasel> Oroit.
2008-04-03 09:16 < arcimboldo_> Trastévere
2008-04-03 09:16 < TheWeasel> thanks
2008-04-03 09:16 < snowolf> ueaj
2008-04-03 09:16 < snowolf> *yeah
2008-04-03 09:16 * snowolf confirms it
2008-04-03 09:18 < arcimboldo_> Tevere = Tiber
2008-04-03 09:18 < arcimboldo_> Tras = Trans
2008-04-03 09:19 * uberpenguin hates decoupling caps
2008-04-03 09:20 < TheWeasel> heh, there's a big tendency in European culture to call one bank worse than the other
2008-04-03 09:21 < Working_Cat> wasswrongwiddat?
2008-04-03 09:21 < Pilotguy> BILL CLINTON
2008-04-03 09:21 < TheWeasel> leading to fierce "patriotism" on the less glamorous side
2008-04-03 09:21 < Working_Cat> heh
2008-04-03 09:22 < Lycurgus> COTTAGE CHEESE
2008-04-03 09:22 < Scott5114> like river banks or financial banks?
2008-04-03 09:22 < TheWeasel> river banks
2008-04-03 09:22 < Scott5114> I was going to sa
2008-04-03 09:22 < Lycurgus> like Rive Gauche, Rive Droite
2008-04-03 09:22 < Working_Cat> lolwut? i thought financial banks
2008-04-03 09:22 < TheWeasel> yea.
2008-04-03 09:23 < Scott5114> "You're just some of that Chase trash! Stop talking shit about Bank of America!"
2008-04-03 09:23 < TheWeasel> in Cologne and surrounding towns there's a big left-of-the-Rhine - right-of-the-Rhine rivalry
2008-04-03 09:23 < Working_Cat> Scott5114: lol just what i thought
2008-04-03 09:23 < Working_Cat> as if there werent enough things to divide people on.
2008-04-03 09:23 < toresbe> it's funny how people find completely stupid things to divide themselves
2008-04-03 09:24 < Lycurgus> yes, when there are really good things
2008-04-03 09:25 < toresbe> like pro- or anti-wikipedia
2008-04-03 09:25 < Working_Cat> Lycurgus: like buttered side up vs buttered side down?
2008-04-03 09:26 < Working_Cat> or like, end braces on same line vs end braces on new line
2008-04-03 09:26 < Lycurgus> I guess.
2008-04-03 09:26 < TheWeasel> People who disagree with certain policies are anti-Wikipedia!
2008-04-03 09:26 < TheWeasel> Sounds familiar?
2008-04-03 09:26 < Working_Cat> TheWeasel: no
2008-04-03 09:26 < HumbertHumbert> AdamBishop: Why do they do the "dateline" thing? What's the point?
2008-04-03 09:27 < Lycurgus> who?
2008-04-03 09:27 < Lycurgus> there's no bot in this channel is there? IIRC if there was it would have to be silent, is that right?
2008-04-03 09:28 < TheWeasel_> Woops
2008-04-03 09:30 < ThePolecat> If you're only a pawn in their game, can you become a knight when you reach the end of the board?
2008-04-03 09:36 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: you there?
2008-04-03 09:36 < White_Cat> yes
2008-04-03 09:36 < Working_Cat> ThePolecat: you get to walk the plank when you reach the end of the board
2008-04-03 09:37 < ThePolecat> pourquoi pas...
2008-04-03 09:37 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: she says you can either use loop or use three Ifs.
2008-04-03 09:38 < White_Cat> can she give an example :)
2008-04-03 09:39 < Working_Cat> what? you need examples for 3 if statements?
2008-04-03 09:39 < White_Cat> yea
2008-04-03 09:39 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: its an assignment?
2008-04-03 09:39 < White_Cat> sort of
2008-04-03 09:40 < White_Cat> more like a practice
2008-04-03 09:40 < Working_Cat> work or study?
2008-04-03 09:40 < White_Cat> study of course
2008-04-03 09:40 < Working_Cat> then no.
2008-04-03 09:40 < White_Cat> they would have fired me from work
2008-04-03 09:40 < White_Cat> oh?
2008-04-03 09:40 < Working_Cat> thats why i would have helped you.
2008-04-03 09:40 < White_Cat> okay
2008-04-03 09:40 < Working_Cat> but nah, your point is to learn.
2008-04-03 09:40 < White_Cat> remind me to never help you
2008-04-03 09:41 < White_Cat> my point is not to learn
2008-04-03 09:41 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: i meant i would have helped you, cuz if you didnt get it right, you'd have been kicked off.
2008-04-03 09:41 < Working_Cat> White_Cat: that is quite apparent.
2008-04-03 09:42 < Working_Cat> zomg i got a notice
2008-04-03 09:42 < White_Cat> I sent none
2008-04-03 09:42 < Working_Cat> not from you.
2008-04-03 09:42 < Pilotguy> STOP THIS HARASSMENT!
2008-04-03 09:43 < snowolf> uh?
2008-04-03 09:43 < Thehelpfulone2> o.o
2008-04-03 09:44 < Lycurgus> ThePolecat: in normaler Schacht, the piece becomes the most effective sovereign one, i.e. die Konigin
2008-04-03 09:44 < Lycurgus> La Reine
2008-04-03 09:45 < Working_Cat> Pilotguy: what
2008-04-03 09:45 < ThePolecat> Yea, but it's difficult to build a transgender element into the simile
2008-04-03 09:45 < ThePolecat> in German die Dame
2008-04-03 09:45 < ThePolecat> the lady
2008-04-03 09:46 < Lycurgus> *Schach
2008-04-03 09:47 < Lycurgus> and Turn for Rook which unlike "Lady" makes more sense
2008-04-03 09:47 < Lycurgus> I could see Dame if the King was called "Herr"
2008-04-03 09:48 < Lycurgus> *Turm
2008-04-03 09:50 < Lycurgus> and Ida thought Knight would be Ritter
2008-04-03 09:51 < Lycurgus> Dame in nederlands too
2008-04-03 09:53 < ThePolecat> Dame was a name for a lady of some noblesse here
2008-04-03 09:53 < Lycurgus> Dama in spanish too
2008-04-03 09:55 < Fabexplosive> hello
2008-04-03 09:55 < Mark_Ryan> hi Fabexplosive :)
2008-04-03 09:56 < Working_Cat> The search engine giant (guess who) will cut 300 employees at advertising technology company DoubleClick, The New York Times reported Tuesday.
2008-04-03 09:56 < Working_Cat> But while other once-fast growing Silicon Valley Web firms are moving, tentatively, to trim their payrolls, Google (nasdaq: GOOG - news - people ) isn't firing employees to save costs, as many accounts suggested.
2008-04-03 09:56 < Working_Cat> Instead, the layoffs are coming because Google co-founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin are determined to apply Google's tough-minded hiring process to employees arriving at Google via an acquisition, says John Sullivan, a human resources consultant who knows many of the people involved with Google's hiring process.
2008-04-03 09:57 < NotACow> ah
2008-04-03 09:57 < Working_Cat> And Google is determined to apply the process to employees of its biggest acquisition to date. About two weeks ago, incoming DoubleClickers were given four days to fill out the standard Google job application, which requests details such as SAT scores and college GPAs, according to one former DoubleClick employee.
2008-04-03 09:57 < NotACow> they're dumping losers
2008-04-03 09:57 < Working_Cat> "These people didn't meet the standard so they were let go," Sullivan says. "No one else does that."
2008-04-03 09:57 < Working_Cat> NotACow: exactly
2008-04-03 09:57 < Working_Cat> all those losers who thought they'd be in google without deserving it.
2008-04-03 09:57 < NotACow> my college GPA sucked, i'd never make it in at google
2008-04-03 09:57 < Mark_Ryan> google bought doubleclick? doesn't that give them like 99% of the internet advertising market?
2008-04-03 09:58 < Fabexplosive> hey Mark_Ryan
2008-04-03 09:59 < uberpenguin> I know some people in google's system hardware group
2008-04-03 10:00 < uberpenguin> from what I know, I wouldn't want to work there
2008-04-03 10:00 < Working_Cat> NotACow: sub 3?
2008-04-03 10:00 < NotACow> Working_Cat: sub 3 what?
2008-04-03 10:00 < Working_Cat> gpa
2008-04-03 10:00 < NotACow> Working_Cat: oh, yes. barely enough to graduate, in fact.
2008-04-03 10:01 < NotACow> something like 2.6 or so
2008-04-03 10:01 < Working_Cat> wow
2008-04-03 10:01 < Working_Cat> wtf were u doing there
2008-04-03 10:01 < Aqwis> what's max?
2008-04-03 10:01 < Working_Cat> 4.0
2008-04-03 10:01 < NotACow> Working_Cat: not going to class :)
2008-04-03 10:01 < Working_Cat> mine was 3.82 :D
2008-04-03 10:01 < NotACow> my transcript is a mix of As and Fs.
2008-04-03 10:01 < Working_Cat> NotACow: interesting
2008-04-03 10:01 < NotACow> when i went to class i usually aced it
2008-04-03 10:02 < NotACow> when i didn't, i usually failed :)
2008-04-03 10:02 < Working_Cat> nice
2008-04-03 10:02 * NotACow shrugs
2008-04-03 10:02 < uberpenguin> GPAs are meaningless... my school is notorious for deflated GPAs because it causes department chairs physical pain to see high average scores
2008-04-03 10:02 < NotACow> none of it matters now
2008-04-03 10:02 < Lycurgus> the real loosers are the sucker chumps that sign up for google summer of code and otherwise guzzle gooozle. Hey I am disgruntled!
2008-04-03 10:02 < Working_Cat> im even surprised you talk bout gpa.
2008-04-03 10:02 < NotACow> my law school GPA is a 3.3 or something like that
2008-04-03 10:02 < NotACow> and i've been in the industry for eight years now, and nobody other than google cares
2008-04-03 10:03 < Working_Cat> NotACow: exactly. and google doesnt care how much your experience is
2008-04-03 10:03 < Working_Cat> from what i heard, unless you are some big shot, you start at the bottom. with other stanford grads.
2008-04-03 10:03 < Lycurgus> they're no different from miscrosoft, or other similar enterprises
2008-04-03 10:03 < NotACow> Working_Cat: google is, honestly, not a good place to go except as a first job, really.
2008-04-03 10:04 < Working_Cat> NotACow: what i was thinking.
2008-04-03 10:04 < NotACow> basically if you've just graduated, you might as well give it a shot
2008-04-03 10:04 < Demi> google offered me a job once, i turned it down
2008-04-03 10:04 < NotACow> if you don't get in, move on to the rest of the world.
2008-04-03 10:04 < Working_Cat> and since Jobs doesnt like slackers and sub-continentals, Apple is out too.
2008-04-03 10:04 < uberpenguin> doesn't even seem like a good "first job" place to me
2008-04-03 10:04 < Demi> there's the well-known clique thing, and their benefits and how they treat their employees was not up to snuff for me
2008-04-03 10:04 < NotACow> uberpenguin: they do have decent benefits.
2008-04-03 10:04 < Working_Cat> uberpenguin: depends where and what you do.
2008-04-03 10:04 < uberpenguin> in a place like that you're going to be overworked, underappreciated, and have to sell your soul to the company to ever distinguish yourself
2008-04-03 10:04 < NotACow> uberpenguin: yeah, they, like most of the giants, overwork their employees.
2008-04-03 10:05 < Lycurgus> subcontinental=desi?
2008-04-03 10:05 < Working_Cat> uberpenguin: welcom to the real world?
2008-04-03 10:05 < uberpenguin> *shrug* place I'm going to work for has good benefits, and I didn't have to sign over the title to my soul
2008-04-03 10:05 < Working_Cat> Lycurgus: yup
2008-04-03 10:05 < NotACow> uberpenguin: since their employees are all young, fresh out of college, and clueless, they don't know that there are other places that do NOT do this.
2008-04-03 10:05 < Demi> yeah, exactly, it's a bit cultish
2008-04-03 10:05 < NotACow> *i* don't work 60-80 hours a week
2008-04-03 10:05 < Working_Cat> NotACow: yup ignorance of the rest of the world is always a great motivation
2008-04-03 10:05 < uberpenguin> Working_Cat: real world nothing, there's a difference between challenging jobs and sweatshop jobs
2008-04-03 10:06 < Working_Cat> uberpenguin: i know now. i didnt think so at my first job.
2008-04-03 10:06 < NotACow> Working_Cat: fresh-out-of-college kids don't care that they're living their entire life at work.
2008-04-03 10:06 < Working_Cat> also, they didnt have any benifits at ALL
2008-04-03 10:06 < NotACow> Working_Cat: especially as google gives them enough distractions and parties and such that they don't feel like they'r ebeing shafted.
2008-04-03 10:06 < Working_Cat> i was still happy to put in 12 hours daily
2008-04-03 10:06 < Demi> there's also a big difference between treating your employees with dignity where it counts--in benefits, flexibility, and so forth; and giving them silicon valley startup toys like koosh balls and free meals
2008-04-03 10:06 < uberpenguin> how much time off do they start with?
2008-04-03 10:06 < uberpenguin> that's important to me :3
2008-04-03 10:06 < uberpenguin> Demi: indeed
2008-04-03 10:07 < NotACow> uberpenguin: really
2008-04-03 10:07 < NotACow> hell, i'll take a small cut in pay if you throw in an extra couple weeks of vacation :)
2008-04-03 10:07 < uberpenguin> same
2008-04-03 10:07 < uberpenguin> company I'm going to starts all employees with 4 weeks paid time off plus a few random days
2008-04-03 10:07 < uberpenguin> which isn't bad
2008-04-03 10:07 < NotACow> uberpenguin: damn, lucky you
2008-04-03 10:07 < Demi> my best vacation benefits (still) were when i was working for a university
2008-04-03 10:07 < Lycurgus> wouldn't it be something if americans got class consiousness all of a sudden?
2008-04-03 10:07 < Demi> 38 days a year
2008-04-03 10:07 * NotACow gets something like 13 days a year
2008-04-03 10:08 < Working_Cat> where i work now is a good place, you could say a leader in its niche, and still no pressures every week. i work like 45 hours and am appreciated enough for what i have done so far.
2008-04-03 10:08 < uberpenguin> and days roll over up to five weeks a year :)
2008-04-03 10:08 < Lycurgus> like in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye
2008-04-03 10:08 < Demi> uberpenguin - that's good
2008-04-03 10:08 < uberpenguin> I know it's good, that's why I'm pleased
2008-04-03 10:08 < uberpenguin> only thing I don't like is that I'm salaried rather than hourly
2008-04-03 10:08 < uberpenguin> but everything else I'm happy with
2008-04-03 10:09 < Working_Cat> 2 weeks i think :/
2008-04-03 10:09 < Working_Cat> uberpenguin: what state?
2008-04-03 10:09 < Demi> where i work, which is a somewhat "traditional" corporate environment, vacation is based on term of service
2008-04-03 10:09 < uberpenguin> now I may just be cynical, but I don't suspect that new hires at megacompanies like Google or Microsoft get anything close to the benefits I'm looking at, so... screw 'em
2008-04-03 10:09 < uberpenguin> Working_Cat: North Carolina
2008-04-03 10:10 < Working_Cat> what! nice
2008-04-03 10:10 < Working_Cat> dont tell me you work at NetApp
2008-04-03 10:10 < NotACow> uberpenguin: micorsoft is crap to work for.
2008-04-03 10:10 < uberpenguin> working in RF electronics engineering for a medium-sized company that's a well-known player in the cell phone industry
2008-04-03 10:10 < Working_Cat> ah ok
2008-04-03 10:10 < NotACow> uberpenguin: 80% of their employees leave within a year of their options vesting.
2008-04-03 10:10 < uberpenguin> NotACow: I don't know anyone there, so I can't competently comment
2008-04-03 10:10 < uberpenguin> yeah, I have heard something to that effect, though
2008-04-03 10:11 < Working_Cat> i know a few who are there.
2008-04-03 10:11 < NotACow> uberpenguin: i have an ex-bf who worked there for a while
2008-04-03 10:11 < uberpenguin> I read a while back that Google was snatching up a lot of Redmond's talent
2008-04-03 10:11 < uberpenguin> though per earlier comments, I wouldn't want to go to google either
2008-04-03 10:11 < Demi> the only people i know who've worked for microsoft have been acquired
2008-04-03 10:11 < Demi> to be fair, you can do a lot worse than google
2008-04-03 10:12 < Working_Cat> uberpenguin: when it was not huge, yes it did.
2008-04-03 10:12 < NotACow> Demi: oh, sure, there's lots of crap places to work
2008-04-03 10:12 < NotACow> msft has an extremely vicious internal environment
2008-04-03 10:12 < Working_Cat> Demi: like my last employer for example
2008-04-03 10:12 < Lycurgus> ms now is like ibm in the 90s. google is the new ms.
2008-04-03 10:12 < Working_Cat> Lycurgus: and Apple is still the Apple of the 80s ;)
2008-04-03 10:13 < Demi> one thing i've noticed is that very large companies is that there really is no single experience in working for them; working for one unit may not be anything like working for another
2008-04-03 10:13 < Working_Cat> atleast they get points for not pretending to be not evil.
2008-04-03 10:13 < kaol> someone clean up and protect the Battle of Maldon article
2008-04-03 10:13 < Demi> "at very large companies"
2008-04-03 10:13 < uberpenguin> I've heard mixed things about IBM... I think peoples' experience there depends heavily on which department they are in and who their managers are
2008-04-03 10:13 < Demi> exactly
2008-04-03 10:13 < uberpenguin> some folks like their jobs there, and some former researchers I know curse their time there
2008-04-03 10:13 < Working_Cat> just what i said. "where you are and what you do"
2008-04-03 10:13 < Lycurgus> i had many managers and was in at least 3 different divisions
2008-04-03 10:14 < Working_Cat> also depends on what you want out of a job
2008-04-03 10:14 < Working_Cat> Lycurgus: i still believe you should go there for a year before the decade is out.
2008-04-03 10:14 < Lycurgus> why?
2008-04-03 10:14 < Working_Cat> just for the sake of completeness
2008-04-03 10:15 < Lycurgus> well there's still 18 mos
2008-04-03 10:15 < Working_Cat> (you are the one who stayed there for a quarter of your career right?)
2008-04-03 10:15 < NotACow> IBM is too large to have any coherent practices
2008-04-03 10:16 < NotACow> IBM discontinued the monolithic "big blue" attitude in the late 80s
2008-04-03 10:16 < NotACow> i have a friend who worked for Tivoli when they were acquired by IBM
2008-04-03 10:16 < NotACow> he was eventually severed and got a year's pay as severance
2008-04-03 10:17 < Lycurgus> yes and i wouldn't be surprised if there was something more, we seem to be attracted to each other, but it won't likely be on-site contracting
2008-04-03 10:17 < toresbe> no they didn't!
2008-04-03 10:17 < toresbe> NotACow: you're on crack. The attitude took a spill in 1993.
2008-04-03 10:17 < NotACow> toresbe: ok, my memory is off :)
2008-04-03 10:17 < toresbe> But other than that - it's' still there.
2008-04-03 10:17 < NotACow> toresbe: in places, but not everywhere, especally in business units that were acquired.
2008-04-03 10:17 < Lycurgus> ibm research was sort of the end of the line, they don't really have anything better
2008-04-03 10:18 * Demi twiddles, waiting for a svn checkout
2008-04-03 10:18 < toresbe> IBM Research is one of the best corporate R&Ds in the world.
2008-04-03 10:18 < NotACow> toresbe: it's certainly very much alive in the "old school" business units.
2008-04-03 10:19 < Lycurgus> it operates as a regular biz unit now, did even when I contracted there although it was new at that time
2008-04-03 10:19 < uberpenguin> toresbe: define "best"
2008-04-03 10:19 < uberpenguin> 'cause I know some people who would scoff at the notion
2008-04-03 10:19 < toresbe> uberpenguin: produces the most valuable output
2008-04-03 10:19 < Demi> it's really hard to change the direction of a very large company, failure to do so doesn't seem to come down to a lack of competence in any individual
2008-04-03 10:19 < Lycurgus> unless the post gerstner guy changed it back
2008-04-03 10:19 < NotACow> Demi: nah, something the size of IBM has the inertia of a 300-car coal train
2008-04-03 10:20 < NotACow> Demi: it just ain't gonna turn.
2008-04-03 10:20 < toresbe> and somehow, they still managed to turn on a dime in 1992.
2008-04-03 10:20 < Demi> IBM has turned more than a lot of companies of similar size
2008-04-03 10:20 < Lycurgus> i definitely consider it the best company i've worked for
2008-04-03 10:20 < ThePolecat> "The Protests against Hartz IV reforms in Germany were protests against the 2004 Hartz IV reform..."
2008-04-03 10:20 < NotACow> Demi: they've had to. the antitrust ruling beat that into them.
2008-04-03 10:20 < ThePolecat> That's a brilliant sentence
2008-04-03 10:21 < uberpenguin> toresbe: ah yes, well CERN produces a lot of useful output but is probably one of the most soul-eroding places in the world to work
2008-04-03 10:21 < NotACow> ThePolecat: god, i love wikipedia sometimes.
2008-04-03 10:21 < Demi> ThePolecat - it's tautologicoriffic
2008-04-03 10:21 < Lycurgus> few people know about it's culture of employee empowerment and how it derived from TJ Watson Sr.s experiences at NCR
2008-04-03 10:21 < toresbe> uberpenguin: pff.
2008-04-03 10:21 < toresbe> Lycurgus: IBM?
2008-04-03 10:21 < ThePolecat> It was in order to get those terms linked again.
2008-04-03 10:21 < Lycurgus> yes, IBM.
2008-04-03 10:21 < ThePolecat> but it's a wee bit short just for that
2008-04-03 10:21 < toresbe> Lycurgus: IBM is occasionally a very uninspiring place to work for.
2008-04-03 10:21 < toresbe> Depends on the department.
2008-04-03 10:22 < uberpenguin> toresbe: I only say so based on the experience of some ex research scientists there, so take it for what it's worth
2008-04-03 10:28 < Demi> next year i will have 10 years of service with my current employer, then i'll get those four weeks of vacation!
2008-04-03 10:28 < Lycurgus> toresbe: Acknowledged.
2008-04-03 10:28 < Demi> i'll barely have to work again
2008-04-03 10:28 < Demi> i'll be able to pick an anniversary gift out of a catalog, too
2008-04-03 10:29 < Lycurgus> a lot of european companies start out with that much
2008-04-03 10:29 < Demi> sure
2008-04-03 10:29 < Demi> like i said, i had 38 days, over six weeks, from the get-go when i worked for stanford
2008-04-03 10:30 < Lycurgus> come to think of it the typical us professional package is a month of discretionary plus paid holidaty time or close to it
2008-04-03 10:30 < Lycurgus> so the eurpean package prolly starts out with an effective 6 weeks or so
2008-04-03 10:31 < Demi> i'm not sure how typical that is
2008-04-03 10:34 < Lycurgus> (Hou in Chinese, not Nu Wang)
2008-04-03 10:34 < Demi> oh wait, i actually get four weeks now
2008-04-03 10:34 < Demi> it'll be five in a year
2008-04-03 10:35 < Lycurgus> yeah, and if you work 4 highly productive hours per working day, you are above average in a a corporate white collar context
2008-04-03 10:36 < Demi> what if i have widely isolated moments of brilliance separated by long periods of just dicking around?
2008-04-03 10:37 < Lycurgus> which makes sense if the normative market rate for intellectual labor where set by that lawyers and doctors earn
2008-04-03 10:37 < Lycurgus> as typical corporate staff make a small fraction of that
2008-04-03 10:38 < Lycurgus> *were