freenode #wikipedia

2008-04-02 17:01 < Messedrocker> a soni the hedgehog
2008-04-02 17:01 < Messedrocker> sonic
2008-04-02 17:01 < Falc> Oh?
2008-04-02 17:01 < Demi> it's sonic the hedgehog? i thought that was a he? and blue? or brown?
2008-04-02 17:01 < Falc> Blue
2008-04-02 17:02 < Messedrocker> no it's not sonic the hedgehog
2008-04-02 17:02 < Messedrocker> sonic is blue and a man
2008-04-02 17:02 < Falc> 0.0
2008-04-02 17:02 < Falc> Sonic is blue and a male Hedgehog
2008-04-02 17:02 < Demi> so we've apparently established.
2008-04-02 17:02 < Demi> so who is this fellow dressed as?
2008-04-02 17:03 < gwern> "The profuse phallic symbolism of chess provides some fantasy gratification of the homosexual wish, particularly the desire for mutual masturbation."
2008-04-02 17:03 < gwern> kingturtle: pages in the mainspace, presumably
2008-04-02 17:03 < gwern> articles
2008-04-02 17:03 < gwern> sorryitwasme: I think it's Amy, from the sonic series
2008-04-02 17:03 < gwern> 'This anguished man dressed as a female hedgehog communicates a great deal about what it is to be human. '
2008-04-02 17:03 < gwern> amy's the only female hedgehog I know of
2008-04-02 17:03 < gwern> also, both she and he are pink
2008-04-02 17:04 < Demi> sounds right
2008-04-02 17:04 < Falc> 0_
2008-04-02 17:04 < Working_Cat> Falc... you dropped your eye... there you go... O
2008-04-02 17:04 < Working_Cat> 0
2008-04-02 17:05 < Working_Cat> 0 O 0 O 0 O 0
2008-04-02 17:05 < Falc> 0_0
2008-04-02 17:05 < Working_Cat> heh heh its jiggly
2008-04-02 17:05 < Working_Cat> theres you go! now you look much more non-mutant
2008-04-02 17:05 * snowolf wonders why people still have to shout over every netspilt
2008-04-02 17:05 < Working_Cat> snowolf: who shouted?
2008-04-02 17:06 < snowolf> yeah nobody, meant "complain"
2008-04-02 17:06 < snowolf> "discuss"
2008-04-02 17:06 < Working_Cat> theyre fun
2008-04-02 17:06 < gwern> 'News: Your house burns down in a wildfire. Weird news: Twice. Fark: So you're rebuilding in the same place, underground'
2008-04-02 17:06 < Working_Cat> whats fark?
2008-04-02 17:06 < Messedrocker> fark.com
2008-04-02 17:07 < Working_Cat> does not sound too clickable at work.
2008-04-02 17:07 < Working_Cat> also, i have been to fark i think, i was just wondering if it meant something or was just a variation of the Big F
2008-04-02 17:08 < gwern> 'Goldman Sachs (GS) taking the rest of Wall Street to the cleaners is nothing new, but now comes word that Goldman played a direct role in the destruction of Bear Stearns (BSC). According to Fortune's Roddy Boyd, several days before the collapse, Goldman decided to stop backing up Bear Stearns derivatives deals--and it announced this decision to hedge-fund clients in an email that spooked an increasingly panicked Wall Street' <-- ...
2008-04-02 17:08 < gwern> ... goldman sachs is such a badass firm. they manage to make a killing on shorting the subprime mortgages, *and* then they killed one of their biggest competitors with the crisis? I officially declare Goldman Sachs 'Honey Badger Awesome'
2008-04-02 17:08 < gwern> Working_Cat: everyone knows fark was a worksafe euphemism for 'fuck'
2008-04-02 17:09 < Monobi2> fsck
2008-04-02 17:09 < Working_Cat> File System ChecK
2008-04-02 17:09 < gwern> 'When word of the Goldman e-mail leaked out, the floodgates opened. Hedge funds and other clients, eventually running into the hundreds, began yanking their funds.'
2008-04-02 17:10 < gwern> it's worth noting that fark.com segreated all the boobies and NSFW stuff to foobies.com, iirc
2008-04-02 17:10 < gwern> 'Actual headline: "After 1968 riots, Baltimore 'not worth it' for some residents." Wow, that's a lot of riots'
2008-04-02 17:13 < Messedrocker> gwern, our governor used to work for Goldman's Sack
2008-04-02 17:14 < gwern> 'I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there's the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.
2008-04-02 17:14 < gwern> The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing random motorists that "hate is not a family value." But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.
2008-04-02 17:15 < mavhc> people choose to be retarded though
2008-04-02 17:17 < gwern> 'But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap.
2008-04-02 17:17 < gwern> Whatever the faults of "Fitna," it ain't no Darwin fish.
2008-04-02 17:17 < gwern> Geert Wilders' film could very, very easily get him killed. (He's already guarded around the clock.) It essentially picks up the work of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in 2004 by a jihadi for criticizing Islam.'
2008-04-02 17:17 < gwern> <-- so apparently all evolution supporters are supposed to become abortion providers
2008-04-02 17:17 < mavhc> gwern: a very direct form of evolution
2008-04-02 17:18 < mavhc> only abort children of retarded people
2008-04-02 17:19 < Messedrocker> mavhc, that's eugenics, not evolution
2008-04-02 17:19 < mastertop> hey, do you know a webpage that would display every NASDAQ stock ?
2008-04-02 17:19 < mastertop> (on like one page or so)
2008-04-02 17:20 < ggreer> mastertop: hmm.... maybe a newspaper? :P
2008-04-02 17:20 < mastertop> Nah ;)
2008-04-02 17:21 < gwern> 'Marcia Poole of the Sioux City Journal is happy to report that French fries get their name not from the country, but the method of peppering and preparing the potatoes. They are actually from Belgium -- and for this reason, the "f" in "french" need not be capitalized. When one frenches a potato, one cuts it into long, narrow strips before cooking it in a tub of salted oils. You can also "french" meat, by trimming away the fat and ...
2008-04-02 17:21 < gwern> ... bone, leaving behind only lean, lanky shanks. If someone frenches your meat, potatoes, or lean lanky shanks -- get a license plate number and tell a grown-up. '
2008-04-02 17:23 < Alkivar> so this is turning into a shitty week for me
2008-04-02 17:23 < Alkivar> my friend sam who just had a tumor removed from his brain just found out it was in fact cancerous... now he'll be going through chemo :/
2008-04-02 17:24 < gwern> 'During the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, France dared to exhibit a level of dissent with United States military action. Republicans counterbalanced this disagreement by launching the ostensibly humorous and patriotic Freedom Fries campaign. Representatives Robert Ney (R - Ohio) and Walter B. Jones (R - North Carolina) ordered White House cafeterias to change the name of french fries to freedom fries -- an action passed by ...
2008-04-02 17:24 < gwern> ... Congress after a vote. Nathalie Loisau, a spokeswoman from the French embassy acknowledged that "we are at a very serious moment dealing with very serious issues, and we are not focusing on the name you give to potatoes." '
2008-04-02 17:24 < mavhc> burn
2008-04-02 17:24 < Demi> and that's not what an anus is for. at all.
2008-04-02 17:24 < Lycurgus> Alkivar: that's terrible.
2008-04-02 17:25 < kingturtle> rehi
2008-04-02 17:25 < Alkivar> Lycurgus: it gets better... he just split with his girlfriend of 12 years about a week before they found the tumor
2008-04-02 17:25 < Alkivar> he's currently living at her place... and my couch
2008-04-02 17:26 < gwern> how can he be living at her place if they broke up?
2008-04-02 17:26 < Alkivar> she's only letting him stay there because his only other option is my couch
2008-04-02 17:26 < Alkivar> because she feels sorry for him after he had a tumor found
2008-04-02 17:27 < Alkivar> and because they have kids
2008-04-02 17:28 < Alkivar> somehow i've been roped into the role of relationship counselor, grief counselor and friend all in one
2008-04-02 17:28 < gwern> 'A recurring feature is Beat Kids, an uncomfortably-named kid-on-the-street showcase of young reporters out in the real world, looking for the scoop. One boy goose-steps and stomps around Manhattan dressed as Adolf Hitler, waving a microphone and asking grownups, "What do you think is wrong with the youth of today?" Adults are momentarily stunned by the visceral disconnection between the child's clothing and his playful demeanor -- ...
2008-04-02 17:28 < Messedrocker> DJ ALKIVAR? more like DR. ALKIVAR
2008-04-02 17:28 < gwern> ... but they don't know how to respond to the boy's offer of letting them stay at his "summer camp". '
2008-04-02 17:28 < gwern> Alkivar: I don't suppose you can charge?
2008-04-02 17:28 < Messedrocker> Dr. Alkivar should have his own daytime TV show!!!!
2008-04-02 17:29 < Alkivar> uh no gwern.... i'm already footing part of his bills because he cant afford shit... i sure as hell cant charge the guy
2008-04-02 17:29 < Messedrocker> Alkivar, what about sexual favors from the girl?
2008-04-02 17:29 < gwern> what a bum
2008-04-02 17:29 < gwern> 'The killing of animals is regularly evangelized on Wonder Showzen -- both directly and indirectly. During the song "Animal Dance," footage loops forward and back to the sound of a jazzy kazoo: snakes devouring rabbits, crocodiles chomping on gazelles, enormous wobbling rhino penises during mating, the splushy, clumsy live birth of yak, red bulbous mouse tumors in a medical lab, and a dead zebra carcass lingering in the sun. To ...
2008-04-02 17:29 < Alkivar> Messedrocker: man the harpoons
2008-04-02 17:29 < gwern> ... suggest the lengthy passage of time, instead of cutting to a spinning clock on the wall, Wonder Showzen dissolves to a dead fox in the forest, rapidly decomposing in time lapse over several weeks. In a storyline about an anthropomorphic number "2" trying to kill itself, a large black beetle is strapped into a miniature electric chair and set ablaze.'
2008-04-02 17:30 < gwern> Messedrocker: if she stayed with the schmook for 12 years, doubt she's worthit
2008-04-02 17:31 < gwern> Messedrocker: also, kids? maybe she's used up
2008-04-02 17:31 < Alkivar> as i said... man the harpoons
2008-04-02 17:31 < Messedrocker> gwern, who said she has to use her vag?
2008-04-02 17:31 < Demi> wobbly rhino penises and yak births don't really evangelize the killing of animals
2008-04-02 17:31 < Alkivar> she's fatter than i am
2008-04-02 17:31 < Messedrocker> oh
2008-04-02 17:31 < Working_Cat> gwern: the suggestion to charge for the counselling was totally cruel.
2008-04-02 17:31 < Messedrocker> forget it then
2008-04-02 17:31 < Messedrocker> unless you're a chubby chaser
2008-04-02 17:32 < gwern> Working_Cat: it was. I was wondering how could I top that for offensiveness
2008-04-02 17:32 < Messedrocker> Working_Cat, crueller than my suggestion to charge through sexual favors?
2008-04-02 17:32 < gwern> 'Yeah, uh Darrel I'm gonna need you to start chipping in, mmkay?'
2008-04-02 17:32 < Working_Cat> Messedrocker: yeah.
2008-04-02 17:32 < Alkivar> i can think of a few ways to top that
2008-04-02 17:32 < Demi> sex should be fun, not icky
2008-04-02 17:32 < Alkivar> sell the kids into sex slavery to pay for his operation!
2008-04-02 17:32 < gwern> Demi: unless you're into that
2008-04-02 17:32 < Working_Cat> >_<
2008-04-02 17:32 < Demi> gwern - there's good icky and bad icky
2008-04-02 17:32 < TheWeasel> I BEG YOUR PARDON, SIR HUMPFREE?
2008-04-02 17:32 < gwern> Alkivar: are they cute enough?
2008-04-02 17:33 < Alkivar> cheerleaders... and yes
2008-04-02 17:33 < Demi> this sounds like an anti-erotic situation, whatever you think of fat women (i'm a big fan, myself)
2008-04-02 17:33 < Working_Cat> cheerleaders? where?
2008-04-02 17:33 < Alkivar> if your into a 12yr old and a 9yr old
2008-04-02 17:33 < gwern> Demi: maybe he could crush her soul, and lick her tears as they do it. would that be sufficiently erotic?
2008-04-02 17:33 < Messedrocker> Alkivar, are they good programmers?
2008-04-02 17:33 < Demi> that's not my thing
2008-04-02 17:33 < Alkivar> i doubt anyone in that house hold could find the power button... let alone program
2008-04-02 17:34 < Working_Cat> gwern, Alkivar, Messedrocker, Demi: >_<
2008-04-02 17:34 < Demi> Working_Cat - are you sneezing?
2008-04-02 17:34 < TheWeasel> This discussion pleases not me.
2008-04-02 17:34 < Working_Cat> Alkivar: lol @ power button
2008-04-02 17:34 < Working_Cat> TheWeasel: me neither
2008-04-02 17:34 < Demi> We are not amused.
2008-04-02 17:34 < Alkivar> the girls arent exactly the brightest of bulbs
2008-04-02 17:34 < Working_Cat> lets go over to #wikimedia-weaselcats
2008-04-02 17:34 < Alkivar> and the mom is flat out computer illiterate
2008-04-02 17:34 < TheWeasel> I say the darndest things.
2008-04-02 17:35 < gwern> Alkivar: brightness just makes it easier for them to escape sexual enslavement. what counts is how cute they are!
2008-04-02 17:35 < Working_Cat> sigh....
2008-04-02 17:35 < Alkivar> i'd post a picture... but thats definately a bridge too far
2008-04-02 17:35 < gwern> Alkivar: you could start a porn^Wblog site, with web cams and stuff, to recoup expenses
2008-04-02 17:36 < Alkivar> uh no thanks for playing... say hello to chris hansen when you see him
2008-04-02 17:36 < gwern> who is that, anyway? I see him mentioned occasionally as if I should know
2008-04-02 17:36 * TheWeasel gets odd artifact in a 3D mode
2008-04-02 17:37 * Demi recommends TheWeasel collapse back to two dimensions
2008-04-02 17:37 < Alkivar> gwern: google "To Catch A Predator"
2008-04-02 17:37 < Demi> our world was not made for flatlanders
2008-04-02 17:37 * quanticle read the backscroll
2008-04-02 17:37 < mavhc> or better still, watch south park
2008-04-02 17:37 * TheWeasel becomes a stamp
2008-04-02 17:37 * quanticle thinks you all are about 10 minutes from an FBI raid...
2008-04-02 17:37 < mavhc> on the internet everyone is about 10 minutes from an FBI raid
2008-04-02 17:38 < quanticle> mavhc: Too true.
2008-04-02 17:38 < Working_Cat> quanticle: i swear
2008-04-02 17:38 < Alkivar> are you kidding... i'm sure the FBI monitors this room
2008-04-02 17:38 < Demi> we've had what's-em-faces in here before
2008-04-02 17:38 < Demi> perverted justice
2008-04-02 17:38 < TheWeasel> ...in the US
2008-04-02 17:38 < Working_Cat> mavhc: i swear
2008-04-02 17:38 < Working_Cat> schrodinger_cat!!!!
2008-04-02 17:39 < gwern> 'Christopher Edward Hansen (born 26 March 1959) is a cock blocker, best known for his work on the Dateline NBC television segment To Catch a Predator. These investigations revolve around catching Internet sex predators using a sting operation.' <-- lol wut
2008-04-02 17:39 < Working_Cat> wassup
2008-04-02 17:39 < Schrodinger_Cat> Working_Cat: Not much
2008-04-02 17:39 < Demi> TheWeasel - did you hear about the german... guy. and the fingerprint thing?
2008-04-02 17:39 < TheWeasel> not sure
2008-04-02 17:39 < Schrodinger_Cat> Demi: The fingerprint thing?
2008-04-02 17:40 < Demi> some officias who's been pushing for a biometric national identity, and the chaos computer club (i think) obtained and distributed his fingerprint?
2008-04-02 17:40 < gwern> Demi: hilarious
2008-04-02 17:40 < Working_Cat> quanticle: not much is a good thing.
2008-04-02 17:40 < TheWeasel> oh yea
2008-04-02 17:40 < gwern> Demi: just goes to show that David Brin was right (again)
2008-04-02 17:40 < TheWeasel> Mr Schäuble
2008-04-02 17:40 < Demi> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/german_minister.html
2008-04-02 17:40 < Demi> what was he right about? germans?
2008-04-02 17:40 < Schrodinger_Cat> Working_Cat: I suppose. Either that, or it means my life is very boring.
2008-04-02 17:41 < TheWeasel> Well, to be fair, data protection would definitely not allow the government to do anything like that.
2008-04-02 17:41 < Working_Cat> David Brin = in any related to the google Brin?
2008-04-02 17:41 < Working_Cat> Sergey... i always misspell his name
2008-04-02 17:41 < TheWeasel> Mr Schäuble is constantly very ascared
2008-04-02 17:41 < gwern> Working_Cat: no
2008-04-02 17:41 < TheWeasel> more so than the people he governs
2008-04-02 17:42 < gwern> Demi: he was right that governments don't like two-way transparency, but it's the only good way forward; see his The Transparent society
2008-04-02 17:42 * gwern has a lot of respect for Brin's prognostications; his ''Earth'' from like '92 has nailed a lot of predictions
2008-04-02 17:42 < Demi> i'm wondering if he's going to go after the computer club on the basis of that "no hacker tools" thing (law? regulation? practice?)
2008-04-02 17:42 < Working_Cat> did i tell you i have three pet spiders... Brin Page and Schmidt
2008-04-02 17:43 < Demi> David, Ellen and John Jacob Jingleheimer?
2008-04-02 17:43 < TheWeasel> It's true that government cannot be transparent into the last bit, but maximum transparency is one of the two (related) most important aspects of the rule of law, in my view
2008-04-02 17:43 < Working_Cat> yeah, page is one hot spider
2008-04-02 17:43 < TheWeasel> the other being maximum checkability
2008-04-02 17:43 < Working_Cat> demi: good one.
2008-04-02 17:43 < gwern> Demi: probably some sort of privacy law
2008-04-02 17:44 < Working_Cat> my friend has 3 tortoises (for real): Kimi, Schumi and Thorpedo
2008-04-02 17:44 < TheWeasel> I'm sure they're about to outlaw Tor
2008-04-02 17:44 * TheWeasel has never used it, but I know people who do
2008-04-02 17:44 < gwern> the germans already raided to nodes no?
2008-04-02 17:45 < TheWeasel> I have no idea
2008-04-02 17:45 < TheWeasel> I don't follow that
2008-04-02 17:45 < mavhc> what's the point in that?
2008-04-02 17:45 < Lycurgus> why cannot government be transparent "to the last bit"?
2008-04-02 17:45 < Lycurgus> what law of nature prevents that?
2008-04-02 17:45 < TheWeasel> because it would have to release things that might cause rash reactions
2008-04-02 17:46 < TheWeasel> an orderly mode of living together does.
2008-04-02 17:46 < Demi> that's actually a tough question
2008-04-02 17:47 * Lycurgus doesn't follow. Transparency may be chosen or not, but I don't see the practical limits given current and prospective technology.
2008-04-02 17:47 < TheWeasel> If everything a government knows was freely available, we'd be knee-deep in one panic after another
2008-04-02 17:47 < Demi> the limits TheWeasel are talking about aren't technological.
2008-04-02 17:47 < Lycurgus> maybe people are especially panicky where you live.
2008-04-02 17:47 < Demi> i don't necessarily think that.
2008-04-02 17:47 < TheWeasel> Not nearly as panicky as elsewhere.
2008-04-02 17:48 < Lycurgus> they are way laid back here.
2008-04-02 17:48 < gwern> initially, perhaps. but I'm not convinced such reactions would last
2008-04-02 17:48 < TheWeasel> Heh, in the US?
2008-04-02 17:48 < TheWeasel> Home of the brave me arse.
2008-04-02 17:48 < gwern> at the very least, I don't think until it's tried we can solidly say total transparency would fail
2008-04-02 17:48 < TheWeasel> (I think you're working there, aren't you)
2008-04-02 17:48 < Demi> well, give us an example of a panicky reaction originating from the populace.
2008-04-02 17:48 < Lycurgus> half of them wouldn't know what the hell you were talking bout bu "transparency" other than like cellophane or glass or other stuff
2008-04-02 17:49 < Demi> (my concern is more about agents of government being disproportionate targets for violence and harrassment)
2008-04-02 17:49 < Lycurgus> *by
2008-04-02 17:49 < TheWeasel> speculations in the press that lead to career-ends and suicides just because people were initially involved in this or that scandal
2008-04-02 17:49 < TheWeasel> and later fully rehabilitated
2008-04-02 17:50 < TheWeasel> I'm not saying government has to "feed" the populace
2008-04-02 17:50 < TheWeasel> but it needs to use its authority to only present authoritative products
2008-04-02 17:50 < Demi> you mean like the way grand jury proceedings are confidential but court proceedings are public (usually!)
2008-04-02 17:50 < Demi> ?
2008-04-02 17:50 < gwern> Demi: so? that's the historical norm. and personally, I think maybe the pendulum oughta swing back a bit to the libertarian end
2008-04-02 17:50 < Demi> so that you don't have people interpreting "we are investigating X" as "X is a child molester"?
2008-04-02 17:51 < TheWeasel> well, non-leaking inquiries.
2008-04-02 17:51 < Demi> gwern - what's the historical norm?
2008-04-02 17:51 < Lycurgus> feeding itself is sort of basic task for any living organism whether a society or an individual
2008-04-02 17:51 < TheWeasel> Precisely.
2008-04-02 17:51 < TheWeasel> People don't have the sense of "proven until guilty", especially not if it comes directly from the government
2008-04-02 17:51 < Lycurgus> check you basic attitudes about human society, "human nature" and the like
2008-04-02 17:51 < TheWeasel> *innocent until proven
2008-04-02 17:51 < gwern> Demi: tax collectors getting lynched and despised...
2008-04-02 17:51 < TheWeasel> asf.
2008-04-02 17:51 < gwern> ;I saw one guy -- this is when I visited the half-block red light district in Utrecht -- tapping the glass in front of this one hooker, and she was reading a paperback. So she looks up and sees him, and then gives him a, "One second" gesture, and then finished her paragraph and then marks the place in the book. Then the guy went in and fucked her. How that was a turn-on I'll never understand.'
2008-04-02 17:52 < Lycurgus> you may have a lot of crufty poorly thought-out nonsense that nonetheles is commonplace in there
2008-04-02 17:52 < Demi> gwern - so i don't think a good way to choose public servants is DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS?! WELL, DO YA?!
2008-04-02 17:52 < Lycurgus> *nonetheless
2008-04-02 17:53 < Lycurgus> *your
2008-04-02 17:53 < Demi> to me, it's not a slam dunk absolute one way or another, and i think finding the right place to mark it is difficult
2008-04-02 17:53 < gwern> Demi: weed out the greedy cowards, at least
2008-04-02 17:53 < gwern> 'As a performer, what is your relationship to the N-word?
2008-04-02 17:53 < gwern> I'm so against racism, I wish the word "nigger" would catch AIDS. From a spic.'
2008-04-02 17:53 < TheWeasel> basically I don't want witch-hunts, I'm ready to sacrifice transparency for that, but for not much else.
2008-04-02 17:54 < TheWeasel> heh
2008-04-02 17:54 < Demi> witch-hunts are also counterproductive to the objective of improving government
2008-04-02 17:54 < TheWeasel> I don't think government should be in the business of de facto humiliating people.
2008-04-02 17:54 < Demi> persecuting a police chief because his officers are engaging in excessive violence is unlikely to solve any problems
2008-04-02 17:54 < TheWeasel> and making convicts' lives difficult after their release, for instance
2008-04-02 17:55 < Lycurgus> i wonder if that expression ('witch-hunt') was common before Arthur Millers novel?
2008-04-02 17:55 < TheWeasel> it might, even
2008-04-02 17:55 < TheWeasel> I read a pretty good essay the other day in which the author criticized the tendency to kick ministers (secretaries) in the butt for something someone deep down the structure has done
2008-04-02 17:56 < TheWeasel> it's basically impossible to lead a government agency and prevent it 100%
2008-04-02 17:56 < TheWeasel> even though much of it is knee-jerk opposition of course, too good to let pass
2008-04-02 17:56 < gwern> 'persecuting a police chief because his officers are engaging in excessive violence is unlikely to solve any problems' <-- lol wut, we should persecute the janitor maybe then?
2008-04-02 17:56 * brown_cat cuddles TheWeasel
2008-04-02 17:57 < Demi> gwern - how about figuring out why it's happening and solve *that* problem?
2008-04-02 17:57 < TheWeasel> it just might solve problems, but it's too stereotypical to automatically chop off the top
2008-04-02 17:57 * Working_Cat huggles brown_cat
2008-04-02 17:58 * brown_cat cuddles Working_Cat
2008-04-02 17:58 < TheWeasel> Demi: Bad press.
2008-04-02 17:58 < Demi> which probably requires breaking a whole social structure of law enforcement and implementing public oversight at a bunch of different levels, not just ousting one guy and getting a new one
2008-04-02 17:58 < Demi> i know, i know, who wants to hear about solving hard problems?
2008-04-02 17:58 < TheWeasel> Instant gratification looks cooler.
2008-04-02 17:58 < TheWeasel> the other extreme of course being the "black sheep" thing
2008-04-02 17:58 < Demi> right, right, better to publish the routes his kids take to school, right?
2008-04-02 17:59 < TheWeasel> (Abu Ghraib)
2008-04-02 17:59 < TheWeasel> where the terribly run entity full of stressed and frustrated people was completely ignored.
2008-04-02 17:59 < gwern> Demi: I think of it as marching the soldiers over the bridge designer's head...
2008-04-02 18:01 < Demi> yeah, so officially military training requires soldiers to be knowledgeable about legal and illegal orders, and refuse to follow illegal ones. So what goes wrong with something like Abu Ghraib? There is probably culpability to go around, not least of which is a winking military culture that doesn't take the idea of legal and illegal orders seriously enough. That's the sort of thing you don't fix by arranging to harrass some general.
2008-04-02 18:01 < Demi> gwern - the subject under discussion is "transparency to the list bit"--that is, the sharing of every last bit of private information about everybody's life.
2008-04-02 18:02 < TheWeasel> Pride, I daresay.
2008-04-02 18:02 < TheWeasel> "things that this country starts are unable to go wrong"
2008-04-02 18:02 < TheWeasel> so the problem is always external
2008-04-02 18:02 < Demi> my concern about that is the idea that agents of the government are disproportionate targets for harrassment or violence. that doesn't have anything to do with, say, consequences for various levels of competence or performance decided on in some fair way.
2008-04-02 18:03 < gwern> Demi: are you nuts? you are worried about the government not being able to protect itself?
2008-04-02 18:03 < TheWeasel> I'm pretty sure the mob is real.
2008-04-02 18:03 < TheWeasel> not "the government"
2008-04-02 18:03 < TheWeasel> distinct agents
2008-04-02 18:03 < TheWeasel> the government itself will just appear far more shaky in the eyes of people, but that wouldn't be the worst thing
2008-04-02 18:04 < gwern> Demi: I'd argue that the worldwide history of forever argues that governments are always getting stronger and more able to protect themselves; radical transparency would merely set their growth in strength back a few centuries at worse
2008-04-02 18:04 < TheWeasel> imagine if they had to publish transcripts of cabinet meetings
2008-04-02 18:04 < TheWeasel> people would be amazed.
2008-04-02 18:04 < TheWeasel> and probably completely exaggerate the arguments into one crisis into another
2008-04-02 18:04 < TheWeasel> legitimacy would utterly falter
2008-04-02 18:04 < Demi> i'm not sure about that, TheWeasel
2008-04-02 18:05 < TheWeasel> especially in countries that value steadfastness
2008-04-02 18:05 < TheWeasel> Those are abstract thoughts and kind of speculative of course, but I think non-government members of society would be immensely threatened.
2008-04-02 18:06 < Demi> bob woodward's book, for example, more or less confirms the arbitrary and incompetent decisionmaking at the top levels of the executive--no one's panicking (and pretty much it just confirmed what we already basically knew)
2008-04-02 18:06 < TheWeasel> in a culture of complete transparency
2008-04-02 18:06 < Cream> What tools do you use for Wikipedia?
2008-04-02 18:06 < TheWeasel> Many people would confuse arguments and disagreements with incompetence
2008-04-02 18:07 < Demi> gwern - the government is us. it must be. if you require that people who are public servants are only the people ready to gird up for a fight to "protect" the government from "the rest of us", well, let's say that i don't think it's "nuts" to think that doesn't lead to the best people serving.
2008-04-02 18:07 * Mike_H pets TheWeasel
2008-04-02 18:07 < TheWeasel> as a "liberal", I think stability is not the strongest virtue of a state, but I can see some practical borders
2008-04-02 18:07 < TheWeasel> :-)
2008-04-02 18:08 * Cream pets Mike_H
2008-04-02 18:08 < TheWeasel> Government is not "intentionally evil"
2008-04-02 18:08 < TheWeasel> but it's like an elephant sitting down
2008-04-02 18:08 < TheWeasel> sometimes
2008-04-02 18:08 < ggreer> gwern: but what about totalitarian states that get overthrown?
2008-04-02 18:08 < TheWeasel> it doesn't realize its bad acts
2008-04-02 18:08 < Demi> TheWeasel - that kind of argument, though, is *so easily* abused to justify people doing what they ought not, and basically not making such decisions in public because they just don't want to own up to what they're doing.
2008-04-02 18:08 < brown_cat> MOAR CITATION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_fund#Criticism_of_managed_mutual_funds
2008-04-02 18:08 < Mike_H> It's another eviction tonight
2008-04-02 18:08 < Mike_H> on Big Brother
2008-04-02 18:09 < Mike_H> we will then be down to six houseguests, and less than a month left in the game
2008-04-02 18:09 * brown_cat snuggles Mike_H
2008-04-02 18:09 * Mike_H pets brown_cat
2008-04-02 18:09 < brown_cat> O_o
2008-04-02 18:09 < TheWeasel> Demi: That's why I'm all for transparency in any concrete phase
2008-04-02 18:09 < ggreer> wake me up when reality shows are passé
2008-04-02 18:09 * Cream rubs brown_cat and changes his litter
2008-04-02 18:09 < Mike_H> ggreer: You may be sleeping for a while
2008-04-02 18:09 < brown_cat> REMOVE YOUR HAND OR I WILL RIP IT OFF AND BEAT YOU TO DEATH WITH IT O_O
2008-04-02 18:09 < ggreer> we should amend the 1st amendment to say "free speech, except for soap operas and reality TV"
2008-04-02 18:10 * TheWeasel remembers a bizarrely bad game for the N64 called Glover
2008-04-02 18:10 < Cream> ggreer, except soap opera parodies?
2008-04-02 18:10 < TheWeasel> speaking of severed hands
2008-04-02 18:10 < ggreer> Cream: soap opera parodies are subject to the lemon test
2008-04-02 18:10 < Cream> shoop da whoop?
2008-04-02 18:10 < Demi> TheWeasel - i don't think it's easy to distinguish between "concrete steps" and deliberative steps, and i think you judge the public too harshly if you think they would be concerned about a cabinet, or city council, or whatever, disagreeing.
2008-04-02 18:11 < Cream> well
2008-04-02 18:11 < Cream> in Québec
2008-04-02 18:11 < Cream> there was a soap opera parody
2008-04-02 18:11 < TheWeasel> You can't refuse to make a cut in non-discrete fields
2008-04-02 18:11 < Cream> they added pointless plot lines
2008-04-02 18:11 < Demi> it does seem like some things should be legitimately kept non-public, but it seems to me that the bar should be reasonably high and not up to the discretion of the body involved.
2008-04-02 18:11 < TheWeasel> just because none pushes itself on you
2008-04-02 18:11 < TheWeasel> but yea, it probably takes a lot of good-will and a lot of judicial asskicking for the rest
2008-04-02 18:12 < Cream> it was the story of 3 triplets wich were played by the same actor
2008-04-02 18:12 < ggreer> Demi: so basically do everything the exact opposite of the TSA
2008-04-02 18:12 < Cream> 2 guy and a girl
2008-04-02 18:12 < ggreer> Cream: you mean arrested development?
2008-04-02 18:12 < Demi> there's... a lot wrong with the TSA.
2008-04-02 18:12 < Cream> ggreer, nope
2008-04-02 18:12 < gwern> ggreer: what about them? I note that the modern instances of totalitarian governments ending are either because of another government, a quasi-government, or an internal faction of the government
2008-04-02 18:12 < ggreer> Cream: oh
2008-04-02 18:12 < Cream> Le Coeur A Ses Raisons
2008-04-02 18:12 < NotACow> COOING RAISINS
2008-04-02 18:12 < Demi> but yeah, this is what kills me about things like the PATRIOT act and the general idea that law enforcement needs "more powers"
2008-04-02 18:12 < ggreer> gwern: well yeah, masses need to organize to overthrow the current system
2008-04-02 18:12 < mastertop> Le coeur a ses raisons ? :o
2008-04-02 18:13 < Cream> yup
2008-04-02 18:13 < ggreer> that is why anarchists never win anything
2008-04-02 18:13 < gwern> nazis: killed by other governments; russian communists: killed by internal government factions; Poland: the *political* party solidarity and so on
2008-04-02 18:13 < Cream> it started as a late show sketch
2008-04-02 18:13 < TheWeasel> Solidarnosc was a trade union.
2008-04-02 18:13 < Cream> then it lasted 3 seasons
2008-04-02 18:13 < Demi> it *might* be a reasonable response to security threats to increase the power of law enforcement agencies, but why anyone would ever say with a straight face that that should come with less accountability is beyond me
2008-04-02 18:13 < gwern> ggreer: the russian anarchists did quite well, but the bolshevik governments ate them
2008-04-02 18:14 < ggreer> Demi: did you know the TSA has a blog?
2008-04-02 18:14 < TheWeasel> Demi: "Whatever it takes" wins election campaigns
2008-04-02 18:14 < TheWeasel> it's probably wrong in all contexts.
2008-04-02 18:14 < ggreer> and they don't delete comments that are critical of them. although the people who write it are retarded
2008-04-02 18:14 < Demi> ggreer - i think i might have, i might have read about the lithium rules there
2008-04-02 18:14 < ggreer> you can't see that picture of the macbook x-ray, it's sensitive information!
2008-04-02 18:14 < ggreer> stupid stuff like that
2008-04-02 18:15 < denelson83> "Celine Dion is the Barbra Streisand of the 21st Century." - me
2008-04-02 18:15 < Demi> i read bruce schneier's interview with kip hawley (sp?)
2008-04-02 18:15 < ggreer> also they tried to defend that nipple piercing incident
2008-04-02 18:15 < ggreer> Demi: oh man, his criticism of the no-fly list was great
2008-04-02 18:15 < TheWeasel> It's bad enough to be the Barbra Streisand of the 20th century.
2008-04-02 18:15 < ggreer> "these people are so dangerous they can't fly, but so innocent that we can't arrest them."
2008-04-02 18:15 < Demi> yeah
2008-04-02 18:15 < gwern> fundamentally, I think governments are a great example of a dominant but not globally optimal strategy
2008-04-02 18:16 < Demi> that is crazy, and an example of lack of accountability gone amok, an so many levels
2008-04-02 18:16 < ggreer> Demi: the funny thing is that anyone can charter a private plane
2008-04-02 18:16 < ggreer> and there's no security for those
2008-04-02 18:16 < gwern> ggreer: don't you know? terrorists are too poor to charter planes
2008-04-02 18:17 < gwern> that's why we don't need any security for rich people stuff
2008-04-02 18:17 < ggreer> you could take all 700 guns caught by the TSA each year, stuff them in bags, and carry them right on a charter flight or air taxi
2008-04-02 18:17 < kingturtle> wow, [[Image:TaskForce One.jpg]] is one hell of a picture
2008-04-02 18:17 < Demi> it seems frustratingly obvious to me that one of the main prongs of government accountability should be "does this work?"
2008-04-02 18:17 < TheWeasel> how much to do preventatively have always been one of the defining problems of liberal democracy
2008-04-02 18:17 < TheWeasel> *has
2008-04-02 18:17 < gwern> it's only the poor who are dangerous
2008-04-02 18:17 < gwern> or middle class, I suppose, who thought they were rich
2008-04-02 18:17 < Luna-San> In the meantime, we've created a ginormous bureaucracy that will fight to the death to continue leeching funding.
2008-04-02 18:17 < ggreer> what annoys me is that the rich get taxed less than the middle class
2008-04-02 18:18 < ggreer> I was almost in the 39% tax bracket this year, but rich people often get paid in stock
2008-04-02 18:18 < ggreer> so they pay 17% capital gains tax instead
2008-04-02 18:18 < Demi> well, sort of
2008-04-02 18:18 < Luna-San> Demi: That's a silly standard to apply. I mean, honestly. This is the government! Of course it works!
2008-04-02 18:18 < TheWeasel> bureaucracies aren't necessarily a bad thing (except in the exclusively pejorative sense that some use it in)
2008-04-02 18:18 < Luna-San> It's for your protection (tm).
2008-04-02 18:18 < Demi> there's just so much sloppy thinking, it's very frustrating
2008-04-02 18:19 < TheWeasel> I much prefer bureaucracy to people doing things on a whim.
2008-04-02 18:19 < TheWeasel> (people who matter, ie government)
2008-04-02 18:19 < Luna-San> TheWeasel: True. I'm more worried that once we give a few thousand people jobs, they get upset for some reason if their department gets shut down or cut...
2008-04-02 18:19 * Demi is the reeve here, administers low justice
2008-04-02 18:19 < TheWeasel> Cutting departments is not an end in itself.
2008-04-02 18:20 < ggreer> what sucks is that the cool departments get cut a lot of the time
2008-04-02 18:20 < ggreer> like NASA
2008-04-02 18:20 < TheWeasel> "less red tape" is easy to say, hard to do smoothly.
2008-04-02 18:20 < TheWeasel> Heh, yes.
2008-04-02 18:20 < Demi> didn't you hear? you're supposed to run government like a business.
2008-04-02 18:20 < ggreer> and they get screwed over by having to build some ridiculous space shuttle and spread contracts out over 48 states
2008-04-02 18:20 < Luna-San> Departments may treat their continued existence as an end in itself, is more the point I'm getting at.
2008-04-02 18:21 < TheWeasel> No, departments are formed to perform predetermined tasks.
2008-04-02 18:21 < TheWeasel> They may or may not be redundant.
2008-04-02 18:21 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: Did I ever tell you the name of the high school my sisters graduated from?
2008-04-02 18:21 < Mike_H> I brought it up in another chat
2008-04-02 18:21 < TheWeasel> Nope.
2008-04-02 18:21 < Mike_H> and nobody believed me
2008-04-02 18:21 < gwern> the space shuttle seems to've been such a bad idea. what has it done that wouldn't've been better served by better one-shot rockets research?
2008-04-02 18:21 < TheWeasel> Go ahead
2008-04-02 18:21 < Mike_H> Nathan Bedford Forrest High School.
2008-04-02 18:21 < Demi> to be honest, that has seemed to be more of a problem in private industry than in government to me
2008-04-02 18:21 < TheWeasel> WHo's that?
2008-04-02 18:22 < Mike_H> A Civil War general
2008-04-02 18:22 < TheWeasel> Southern racist?
2008-04-02 18:22 < TheWeasel> oh
2008-04-02 18:22 < Mike_H> and the first Grand Wizard
2008-04-02 18:22 < Mike_H> of the KKK
2008-04-02 18:22 < TheWeasel> Yea, I remembered it vaguely right
2008-04-02 18:22 < TheWeasel> hah, bless you, tradition
2008-04-02 18:22 < Mike_H> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest_High_School_%28Jacksonville%2C_Florida%29
2008-04-02 18:22 < TheWeasel> :-/
2008-04-02 18:22 < ggreer> gwern: the space shuttle even looks like it was built by politicians. it's a compromise between SSO and a multi-stage rocket
2008-04-02 18:22 < ggreer> with the worst parts of both
2008-04-02 18:22 < Demi> yeah, engines but no fuel. huh?
2008-04-02 18:22 < TheWeasel> Heh, the evils of compromise
2008-04-02 18:23 < TheWeasel> another hard question for liberal democracy to answer
2008-04-02 18:23 < Demi> what's NASA's budget, though? it's pretty much play money, isn't it?
2008-04-02 18:23 < ggreer> a few hundred million a year I think
2008-04-02 18:24 < TheWeasel> odd
2008-04-02 18:24 * gwern wonders whether anyone else ever uses the word 'wouldn't've'
2008-04-02 18:24 < Demi> i don't write it
2008-04-02 18:24 < TheWeasel> that would be one prestige agency I wouldn't let down as a politician
2008-04-02 18:24 < ggreer> gwern: in speaking, kind of, yeah
2008-04-02 18:24 < Luna-San> Obviously Congress hasn't been watching enough Star Trek.
2008-04-02 18:24 < ggreer> but not in writing
2008-04-02 18:24 * TheWeasel uses "amn't I"
2008-04-02 18:24 < gwern> 'Although uncommon in written English, people often use complex contractions such as wouldn't've for would not have, or combining auxiliary verbs with nouns, e.g. John'd fix your TV if you asked him. Although these can look awkward in print, they are natural and frequently heard colloquialisms.'
2008-04-02 18:25 < gwern> TheWeasel: nice. I'll remember that - am not I
2008-04-02 18:25 * TheWeasel should've read that article earlier
2008-04-02 18:25 < TheWeasel> "aren't I" always struck me as completely illogical
2008-04-02 18:25 < Mike_H> gwern: I've never read anyone use things like "John'd" except in a Flannery O'Connor story or something
2008-04-02 18:26 < Demi> TheWeasel - that's what "ain't I" is for
2008-04-02 18:26 < gwern> gwern'd disagree a bit
2008-04-02 18:26 < TheWeasel> I once suggested that to someone, they (singular) said it looked uneducated in serious-ish writing
2008-04-02 18:27 < Demi> yes, ain't has been relegated for some time
2008-04-02 18:27 < Mike_H> again, unless it's in a Flannery O'Connor story
2008-04-02 18:27 < The359> heh
2008-04-02 18:27 * The359 guessed the Final Jeopardy question right today
2008-04-02 18:28 < Demi> probably gained disrepute by being overused for all kinds of other forms where "isn't" or whatever would be preferable
2008-04-02 18:28 < Mike_H> The359: Well, don't tell me what it is
2008-04-02 18:28 < TheWeasel> The359: That'd've made you rich.
2008-04-02 18:28 < Mike_H> it comes on here now.
2008-04-02 18:28 < The359> tough
2008-04-02 18:28 * The359 spoils it
2008-04-02 18:28 * TheWeasel happens to like "ain't"
2008-04-02 18:28 < Mike_H> NOOOOOOO
2008-04-02 18:28 < TheWeasel> WHAT IS KILLJOY?
2008-04-02 18:28 < The359> I can give the question :-P
2008-04-02 18:28 < Mike_H> fine
2008-04-02 18:28 < Mike_H> and I'll guess it
2008-04-02 18:29 < gwern> you couldn't've guessed it if y'all hadn't've been w'pedians
2008-04-02 18:29 < TheWeasel> That way round it's way harder.
2008-04-02 18:29 < gwern> 'strue, 'sblood!
2008-04-02 18:29 < Demi> Punk'd!
2008-04-02 18:29 < Mike_H> gwern: Flannery O'Connor is dead.
2008-04-02 18:29 < Mike_H> Let her writing style die too.
2008-04-02 18:29 < The359> "Located about 20 kilometers from Frankfurt, these two rivers which rhyme despite different spellings join."
2008-04-02 18:29 < The359> (roughly)
2008-04-02 18:29 < TheWeasel> until the early hour of the morn'
2008-04-02 18:29 < TheWeasel> Heh
2008-04-02 18:29 < Demi> flannery o'connor was always highly recommended to me in school, i never read her
2008-04-02 18:29 * The359 knew it without looking it up
2008-04-02 18:29 < gwern> Demi: you've yclept it'd right!
2008-04-02 18:30 < Lycurgus> theweasel: a "wet blanket"
2008-04-02 18:30 * TheWeasel once underwent surgery 20 km from that spot
2008-04-02 18:30 < Lycurgus> somebody who brings everybody down
2008-04-02 18:30 < Demi> i know it too
2008-04-02 18:30 * NotACow snickers
2008-04-02 18:30 < gwern> TheWeasel: the rhine and something else?
2008-04-02 18:30 < Demi> Frankfurt am Main!
2008-04-02 18:30 < TheWeasel> they don't
2008-04-02 18:30 < Lycurgus> a limp dick at an orgy
2008-04-02 18:30 < The359> yes, Demi
2008-04-02 18:30 < TheWeasel> they rhyme with "brine"
2008-04-02 18:30 < TheWeasel> not "oi", "i"
2008-04-02 18:30 < NotACow> so jimmy's moving on from trying to create a search engine to trying to catalyze peace in the middle east? do you suppose jayjg or slimvirgin will be going with him?
2008-04-02 18:30 < The359> all three contestants guessed Rhine and Rhone
2008-04-02 18:30 < NotACow> maybe jayjg is jimmy wales
2008-04-02 18:30 < Lycurgus> or better still a preacher
2008-04-02 18:31 < NotACow> nah that seems improbable
2008-04-02 18:31 < Mike_H> I wouldn't have gotten it
2008-04-02 18:31 < TheWeasel> Rhine and Rhone don't even flow nearly to the same sea.
2008-04-02 18:31 < Mike_H> I would have said Rhine and Rhone too, but I thought, wait, that doesn't even rhyme
2008-04-02 18:31 < Lycurgus> (of the ole time, not the secksy time, religion)
2008-04-02 18:31 < NotACow> KEYPUNCH
2008-04-02 18:31 < gwern> NotACow: how does he have money for the middle east? didn't you prove he was living in penury?
2008-04-02 18:31 < TheWeasel> Rhine and Main is rine, err, right
2008-04-02 18:31 < NotACow> gwern: i'm sure someone else is paying for it.
2008-04-02 18:31 < zvook> in ireland we still say "amn't I?" :)
2008-04-02 18:31 < NotACow> gwern: jimmy never pays for anything with his own money if he can help it.
2008-04-02 18:32 * TheWeasel neither lives on the Rhine nor on the Main, lives in penury
2008-04-02 18:32 < Lycurgus> they still say "whoreson" there too don't they?
2008-04-02 18:32 < The359> I figured it was Rhine, but it took me a minute to remember "Frankfurt-am-Main"
2008-04-02 18:32 * TheWeasel lives near the confluence of Spree and Havel.
2008-04-02 18:32 < Demi> and "jackanapes"
2008-04-02 18:32 < Mike_H> Spree. I love that candy.
2008-04-02 18:32 < TheWeasel> not as in "killing spree"
2008-04-02 18:32 < gwern> Lycurgus: 'swounds, they sure do you whoreson dog!
2008-04-02 18:32 * Demi lives near, uh, some creeks
2008-04-02 18:32 < gwern> aroint thee then
2008-04-02 18:32 < NotACow> gwern: i suspect if you dug into it you'd fiind that most of the money that was supposedly donated by jimmy wales to the wikimedia foundation was actually bomis money
2008-04-02 18:32 < Mike_H> Demi: You mean cricks.
2008-04-02 18:33 < TheWeasel> and not like the Czech politician
2008-04-02 18:33 < Demi> we don't say that in these parts
2008-04-02 18:33 * The359 lives near the Little Lehigh
2008-04-02 18:33 < Mike_H> Demi: Oh, my grandma does
2008-04-02 18:33 < Mike_H> but she's from Virginia :/
2008-04-02 18:33 < Demi> i suspect in some regions they would call Bear Creek here a river
2008-04-02 18:33 < gwern> NotACow: well, too late now I suppose. I dunno if bomis, whatever happened to't, would let you look at the records
2008-04-02 18:33 < TheWeasel> Ze vahter ees a vehry imbortent dype of likwid!
2008-04-02 18:33 < TheWeasel> </ahnuld>
2008-04-02 18:33 < Mike_H> Demi: Apparently a group is protesting a church in Oregon
2008-04-02 18:33 < Demi> hehe
2008-04-02 18:34 < Mike_H> because one of the Big Brother contestants is from Oregon, and claims to be religious but has said on the live feeds that she's had two abortions and has given out plentiful sexual favors to a male houseguest.
2008-04-02 18:34 * TheWeasel can only fake a passable Vienna accent, not so much a Styrian one
2008-04-02 18:34 < Mike_H> and they're protesting her church.
2008-04-02 18:34 < Mike_H> Because she's immoral and is going to burn in hell.
2008-04-02 18:34 < Demi> haha, okay
2008-04-02 18:34 < Mike_H> Or something.
2008-04-02 18:34 < NotACow> gwern: bomis still exists, i believe, but only as a corporate husk, no real assets
2008-04-02 18:34 < TheWeasel> Mike_H: Some religions require that
2008-04-02 18:34 < gwern> TheWeasel: wahter says: \vehn u dreenk me, Ah'll be back (as pees)
2008-04-02 18:34 < Demi> what area, do you know, Mike_H?
2008-04-02 18:34 < Mike_H> Demi: Let me find out
2008-04-02 18:35 < gwern> NotACow: who owns it then? it wasn't sold?
2008-04-02 18:35 < NotACow> gwern: nobody would buy it
2008-04-02 18:35 < NotACow> gwern: that was the whole point of it exisitngin the first place
2008-04-02 18:35 < NotACow> gwern: to get someone to buy it.
2008-04-02 18:35 < ggreer> people actually watch big brother?
2008-04-02 18:35 < NotACow> gwern: problem was, nobody wanted to buy it.
2008-04-02 18:35 < TheWeasel> Hasta la vista, Fräulein
2008-04-02 18:36 < NotACow> gwern: sorta like wikia
2008-04-02 18:36 < Lycurgus> what do people think in Europe when they hear some old American preacher talking in a musty country accent about people burning in hell and the like?
2008-04-02 18:36 < ggreer> those people must not get out much. they should do something interesting with their lives
2008-04-02 18:36 < Lycurgus> do they have that in Europe?
2008-04-02 18:36 < gwern> heh. that does seem to be the 2.0 strategy, get bought by the giants who survived 1.0
2008-04-02 18:36 < LisaLaptop> well they have plenty of churches, I'd imagine so.
2008-04-02 18:36 < TheWeasel> Lycurgus: We do, for various values of "musty accent"
2008-04-02 18:36 < NotACow> gwern: you know the .com lifecycle: have idea, get first round investors, create something vaguely popular, sell out, go to aruba for a year. launder, rinse. repeate.
2008-04-02 18:36 < gwern> maybe the hope is google will use some of the stock burning a hole in its pocket to buy wikia
2008-04-02 18:36 < LisaLaptop> In the very least, they have mormon missionaries everywhere
2008-04-02 18:36 < TheWeasel> so we don't have to import madness any more
2008-04-02 18:36 < Demi> casuistry is more advanced in europe, europeans have more workarounds for hell
2008-04-02 18:37 < ggreer> NotACow: you only need to sell a company once to make bank
2008-04-02 18:37 * Lycurgus crosses out the entire EU.
2008-04-02 18:37 < ggreer> even a small sale like $20 million can do it if you only have a few employees
2008-04-02 18:37 < NotACow> gwern: the problem once is that jimmy never managed to find danyone to buy bomis. and so far nobody has shown any interest it buying wikia, either.
2008-04-02 18:37 < Demi> let us not forget what the da vinci code taught us about religious fanaticism in europe.
2008-04-02 18:37 < TheWeasel> Christianity was predicted to make a comeback after Ratzinger
2008-04-02 18:37 < Mike_H> Natalie Cunial (born November 7, 1979) is a bikini barista from Salem, Oregon. As a kid she moved around a lot, during high school she lived in Alameda, California; Salem, Oregon and Mililani, Hawaii. She attended Chemeketa Community College in Salem as well as The Art Institute of Las Vegas in Nevada. She previously won the title of Miss Hawaiian Tropic Oregon.[28]
2008-04-02 18:37 < Lycurgus> (except for Estonia and the Czech Republic)
2008-04-02 18:37 < Mike_H> So, Salem.
2008-04-02 18:37 < TheWeasel> which has largely supsided
2008-04-02 18:37 < TheWeasel> *b
2008-04-02 18:37 < Messedrocker> Demi, what did it teach us
2008-04-02 18:38 < Demi> never trust an albino, i think
2008-04-02 18:39 < Demi> either that or "hate the albinism, not the albino"
2008-04-02 18:39 < gwern> NotACow: mm. there could be stuff in the backroom, but who'd buy wikia except google or yahoo? and the two of'em would only buy if wikia demonstrated success, imo. knol sort of says to me google wants to do wikis inhouse
2008-04-02 18:39 < Lycurgus> really seems more like orthodox christianity would be predicted to be interred by Ratzinger. If he lives that long.
2008-04-02 18:39 < TheWeasel> Al Bino sounds like a good name for a blonde Dean Martin cover singer
2008-04-02 18:39 < gwern> also, where the hell is knol? how long does it take google to set up some wikis?
2008-04-02 18:39 < Messedrocker> gwern, knol isn't exactly wiki
2008-04-02 18:39 < gwern> has google started FUDing?
2008-04-02 18:39 < Demi> hm, salem seems pretty normal, on the whole
2008-04-02 18:39 < Messedrocker> and they're beta-testing
2008-04-02 18:39 < Demi> they even have learnin' there
2008-04-02 18:40 < Messedrocker> and what's FUDing?
2008-04-02 18:40 < Lycurgus> note: the concept of a post-singularity pope makes no sense.
2008-04-02 18:40 < TheWeasel> The Russian government makes life jolly difficult for Catholicism.
2008-04-02 18:40 < Lycurgus> yeah cause it's considered hostile wester culture
2008-04-02 18:40 < Demi> everyone knows the real god of europeans is laziness and effeminacy
2008-04-02 18:40 < TheWeasel> My sister has been to Ratzinger's hometown.
2008-04-02 18:40 < gwern> Lycurgus: sure it does. he can transfer commands from the biggest ai down to the primitive humans... AI's vicar on earth
2008-04-02 18:40 < Lycurgus> there's no such problem with the eastern orthodox I bet
2008-04-02 18:41 < TheWeasel> They're milking this thing like there was no tomorrow.
2008-04-02 18:41 < TheWeasel> not much, no.
2008-04-02 18:41 < Mike_H> Demi: and manpris.
2008-04-02 18:41 < Demi> "Original Pope's Pizza"?
2008-04-02 18:41 < Mike_H> Europeans love manpris.
2008-04-02 18:41 < Demi> oh, i thought you meant salem
2008-04-02 18:41 < TheWeasel> Except that the patriarchy in Moscow would like some more activity on the creationism-in-schools front
2008-04-02 18:42 < TheWeasel> What the bloody hell is manpris?
2008-04-02 18:42 < Lycurgus> that would never work in russia
2008-04-02 18:42 < gwern> the orthodoxes are anti-evolution too?
2008-04-02 18:42 < TheWeasel> Serbia just re-introduced it.
2008-04-02 18:42 < NotACow> Messedrocker: at this point they're alpha-testing
2008-04-02 18:42 < TheWeasel> yea.
2008-04-02 18:42 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: Capri pants, for men.
2008-04-02 18:42 < gwern> geez, even the catholics managed to get that one right, unless ratziner intends to reverse course...
2008-04-02 18:42 < TheWeasel> oh yes
2008-04-02 18:42 < Mike_H> We've had this discussion before.
2008-04-02 18:42 < TheWeasel> I own some, actually.
2008-04-02 18:42 < TheWeasel> Your memory is impeccable.
2008-04-02 18:42 < TheWeasel> I remember now.
2008-04-02 18:42 < Demi> what's funny is that per capita oregon is the least religious state; and yet, religion seems to be pretty outspoken here. the gay marriage ban passed, apparently by religious motivation. and subjectively, it seems like here (which is very liberal) there are a lot of churches and a lot of talking about church, far more than i ever experienced in california
2008-04-02 18:42 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: Of course you own some
2008-04-02 18:42 < Mike_H> you're German
2008-04-02 18:43 < Messedrocker> NotACow, did you ever figure out the 1.05dB issue?
2008-04-02 18:43 < Therapist_Cat> MOAR KATZ!
2008-04-02 18:43 < Lycurgus> receptivity to that kind of stupidity has to have a deep indemic basis. It can work in fundamentally backward places where the superstition in question is already entrenhed ...
2008-04-02 18:43 < gwern> endemic?