freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-19 18:51 < Hello32020> it only slows down to 3 mbps from 5 mbps when I try Mexico City, that's pretty good
2008-03-19 18:51 < Golbez> let me know, please
2008-03-19 18:52 < noclip> Hello: that's not verizon's fault
2008-03-19 18:52 < Golbez> or rather, arrest, but we all know what happens when you resist arrest.
2008-03-19 18:52 < ThePolecat> Governments can't either
2008-03-19 18:52 < ThePolecat> Heh
2008-03-19 18:52 < Hello32020> yes I know
2008-03-19 18:52 < noclip> once you're off their network, all bets are off
2008-03-19 18:52 < Golbez> OK, let's drop it back down to 'arrest'
2008-03-19 18:52 < ggreer> ThePolecat: you mean economic systems in (thick russian accent) old country?
2008-03-19 18:52 < Golbez> Which companies?
2008-03-19 18:52 < noclip> if i speedtest to LA i get 5/1
2008-03-19 18:52 < ThePolecat> Simile doesn't need to go that far to get them to quasi-constitutional liability
2008-03-19 18:53 < ThePolecat> no, just the European systems that used to dominate everywhere before the 1970s.
2008-03-19 18:53 < Golbez> ThePolecat- That is what basically sets the government apart from mere mortals, isn't it? the 'right' to use force?
2008-03-19 18:53 < Golbez> so what makes these things 'quasi-governments'
2008-03-19 18:53 < ThePolecat> with that right comes responsibility
2008-03-19 18:53 < noclip> ...i'm spiderman
2008-03-19 18:53 < Golbez> i'm not aware of any companies with such a right
2008-03-19 18:53 < ThePolecat> corporations use force without having the explicit right to do so.
2008-03-19 18:53 < Golbez> example?
2008-03-19 18:53 < Hello32020> eh 1 mbps to singapore thats fairly good
2008-03-19 18:54 < ggreer> Hello32020: with TCP tuning you could easily double that
2008-03-19 18:54 < ggreer> since window sizes are usually too small for higher latency long distance connections
2008-03-19 18:54 < ThePolecat> environmental and social impacts... watching their clients...
2008-03-19 18:54 < Golbez> some companies do indeed abuse the rights of others
2008-03-19 18:54 < noclip> ideally, verizon would ask the government for money to build their network, and the government would tell them to fuck off
2008-03-19 18:54 < Golbez> slavery, threats, etc.
2008-03-19 18:54 < Golbez> and they should be dealt with
2008-03-19 18:54 < ThePolecat> but they can't, not as easily as the government
2008-03-19 18:55 < ThePolecat> in practice
2008-03-19 18:55 < noclip> in reality, verizon gets a blank check delivered annually
2008-03-19 18:55 < Golbez> but in a free society those issues are very rare, far rarer than executed by individuals or the government
2008-03-19 18:55 < Hello32020> noclip: Isn't it good for the country to increase internet speeds by building FiOS connections?
2008-03-19 18:55 < noclip> "you're going to research considering possibly thinking about providing some tiny amount of access to several rural areas, maybe? here's $5 billion!"
2008-03-19 18:55 < ThePolecat> Only a government without proper checks.
2008-03-19 18:55 < Golbez> where it happens is
2008-03-19 18:55 < Golbez> yes
2008-03-19 18:55 < Golbez> when the government allows it to happen, and is usually complicit
2008-03-19 18:56 < ThePolecat> Well...
2008-03-19 18:56 < Golbez> the government looked the other way when mining companies assaulted striking workers
2008-03-19 18:56 < ThePolecat> our politicians lamely scold corporations every now and then
2008-03-19 18:56 < Golbez> and likewise, has occasionally looked the other way when striking workers assaulted picketcrossers.
2008-03-19 18:56 < ThePolecat> for abuses they were powerless to stop
2008-03-19 18:56 < Hello32020> its probably good for the government to help fund it a little but a blank check as said above is unacceptable (a interest free loan would be an even better alternative)
2008-03-19 18:56 < ThePolecat> oh goodness me
2008-03-19 18:56 < Crazytales> Anyone a biologist here.?
2008-03-19 18:56 < noclip> Hello: if the government had wasn't so totally corrupt and spineless, it'd insist on conditions that are in the public interest
2008-03-19 18:57 < noclip> s/had//
2008-03-19 18:57 < Golbez> how big does a group of people have to be before its a 'quasi-government' worthy of having its members' freedoms curtailed?
2008-03-19 18:57 < ThePolecat> that's a good question.
2008-03-19 18:57 < noclip> "you want $5 billion? alright, but you have to agree to make your ENTIRE network open"
2008-03-19 18:57 < ThePolecat> there are certain services people usually require for a decent life
2008-03-19 18:57 < mexicanbanana> http://www.anontalk.com/topic/757/I've_now_watched_all_156_episodes_of_The_Twilight_Zone...
2008-03-19 18:58 < ThePolecat> those should certainly be included, mostly energy, water and telephone
2008-03-19 18:58 < noclip> as opposed to "you want $5 billion? hell, take $50 billion, the peasants are paying for it!"
2008-03-19 18:58 < Golbez> ah so it's not about how big these companies are
2008-03-19 18:58 < ggreer> ThePolecat: where do you draw the line though?
2008-03-19 18:58 < Golbez> rather, it's what they do
2008-03-19 18:58 < ThePolecat> maybe public transport
2008-03-19 18:58 < ggreer> ThePolecat: what about medical care, education, self-defense?
2008-03-19 18:58 < Golbez> interesting that you didn't say food - which is extremely privatized in the united states, which i might point out is a vast exporter of foodstuffs.
2008-03-19 18:58 < ThePolecat> lines are always arbitrary, but there are pretty good lines that can be drawn
2008-03-19 18:58 < ThePolecat> insurance yea
2008-03-19 18:59 < ThePolecat> medical care and education are still a public task
2008-03-19 18:59 < Golbez> withdraw previous statement of 'extremely' due to the subsidies, forgot about those. but the government certainly isn't in charge of that.
2008-03-19 18:59 < ThePolecat> argh
2008-03-19 18:59 < ThePolecat> education
2008-03-19 18:59 < ThePolecat> and
2008-03-19 18:59 < ThePolecat> military
2008-03-19 18:59 < ThePolecat> not necessarily medical care
2008-03-19 18:59 < ggreer> Golbez: exactly. some stuff that we need to survive is complete privatized, and some things 90% of us will never need are completely socialized
2008-03-19 18:59 < noclip> while somebody brought up insurance...
2008-03-19 18:59 < Golbez> education has been demonstrably proven to be better provided by the private sector. it's better, and it's cheaper.
2008-03-19 18:59 < ggreer> flood insurance I'm looking at you >:
2008-03-19 18:59 < ggreer> *>:(
2008-03-19 18:59 < noclip> insurance is a horrible basis for a healthcare system
2008-03-19 18:59 < Golbez> federal flood insurance is one of the things that caused so much damage on the gulf coast
2008-03-19 19:00 < Golbez> noclip- the way we handle health insurance, yes
2008-03-19 19:00 < ggreer> let's give people money if they build houses in flood plains!
2008-03-19 19:00 < Golbez> it's utterly moronic
2008-03-19 19:00 < ThePolecat> but it's privatized without transferring the easily substantiable responsibility government had
2008-03-19 19:00 < Golbez> that's like having my auto insurance pay for a portion of every fuel up
2008-03-19 19:00 < noclip> if you wreck your car and you don't have car insurance, you lose your car, or whatever the person who's property you destroyed sues you for
2008-03-19 19:00 < noclip> if you get sick and don't have health insurance, you drop dead
2008-03-19 19:00 < noclip> period
2008-03-19 19:00 * ThePolecat is squarely opposed to private schools
2008-03-19 19:00 < ggreer> noclip: of course if you're poor you can't pay the other person
2008-03-19 19:00 < Golbez> ThePolecat- why? They're almost always better, and they're definitely always cheaper.
2008-03-19 19:01 < noclip> ggreer: that's why that person has insurance
2008-03-19 19:01 < ThePolecat> Ford To Poor People: Drop Dead
2008-03-19 19:01 < noclip> the insurance model doesn't work for health
2008-03-19 19:01 < ggreer> noclip: but 1/3rd of people in california don't have car insurance
2008-03-19 19:01 < Golbez> In Washington DC, I went to a very nice private school which cost $10,000 a year. Last I checked, each student in the DC public schools costs the system $13,000 per annum.
2008-03-19 19:01 < ggreer> because they're d-bags who want to save money
2008-03-19 19:01 < noclip> if you're responsible, you buy it for yourself
2008-03-19 19:01 < noclip> if you get hit by someone without it, yours will pay
2008-03-19 19:01 * ThePolecat can't check those figures
2008-03-19 19:02 < Golbez> Poor people would be very much served by abolishing such a poor system and replacing it with a private system. They would save money.
2008-03-19 19:02 < ThePolecat> but they sound awfully out of proportion
2008-03-19 19:02 < ggreer> noclip: ah, but most people get liability only insurance
2008-03-19 19:02 < noclip> then they're irresponsible
2008-03-19 19:02 < ggreer> because full insurance is insane
2008-03-19 19:02 < ThePolecat> but they'd be paid for by their own non-existant money except for progressive tax dollars
2008-03-19 19:02 < ThePolecat> so *they* would not save money, au contraire
2008-03-19 19:02 < ggreer> for example, liability only insurance for my car is $3k a year
2008-03-19 19:02 < Golbez> ThePolecat- who pays those taxes?
2008-03-19 19:02 < noclip> if they know 1/3 of their state's drivers don't have insurance, it's an easy choice
2008-03-19 19:02 < Golbez> you realize schools are paid for with property taxes, right?
2008-03-19 19:03 < Golbez> and no matter how progressive an income tax regime is
2008-03-19 19:03 < Ceiling_Cat> Apple` - Congrats!
2008-03-19 19:03 < noclip> if they choose not to get fully insured, they're gambling
2008-03-19 19:03 < ThePolecat> each, according to his abilities.
2008-03-19 19:03 < Golbez> *everyone* pays property taxes.
2008-03-19 19:03 < ggreer> but the blue book price on my car is $6k
2008-03-19 19:03 < Golbez> the poor pay them through their rent
2008-03-19 19:03 < ThePolecat> ...each according to his abilities :-)
2008-03-19 19:03 < Golbez> ok i found up to date figures
2008-03-19 19:03 < noclip> but again, insurance for health is insane
2008-03-19 19:03 < ggreer> noclip: indeed
2008-03-19 19:03 < Golbez> the district has budgeted $8770 per pupil for the 2008 school year
2008-03-19 19:04 < Mike_H> ancjr: Did you know the guy who played Nellie's husband
2008-03-19 19:04 < Mike_H> on Little House on the Prairie
2008-03-19 19:04 < Mike_H> was gay in real life/
2008-03-19 19:04 < ggreer> ThePolecat: haha, I hate that phrase so much
2008-03-19 19:04 < Mike_H> ?
2008-03-19 19:04 * ThePolecat is happily insured by the state and would be dead without that
2008-03-19 19:04 < Golbez> my school still charges $10000 per pupil
2008-03-19 19:04 < noclip> you shouldn't be allowed to die when the capability exists to save you
2008-03-19 19:04 < Golbez> from each according to his ability, to each according to their ability to steal it from him
2008-03-19 19:04 < noclip> end of story
2008-03-19 19:04 < ThePolecat> and I know the libertarian stand against that, but I find that anti-life
2008-03-19 19:04 < ggreer> I'd guess about half of my income goes to taxes in one form or another. it's insane
2008-03-19 19:05 < Golbez> ThePolecat- what is the libertarian stance you refer to
2008-03-19 19:05 < sputnick_> hi all
2008-03-19 19:05 < bumm13> blip bloop
2008-03-19 19:05 < sputnick_> is there something to convert pdf to wiki ?
2008-03-19 19:05 < ThePolecat> that "your illness doesn't matter to me because I don't know you"
2008-03-19 19:05 < ThePolecat> it's not theft, it's what a caring society does.
2008-03-19 19:05 < Golbez> you have a very warped and incorrect view of the libertarian stance.
2008-03-19 19:05 < AppleBoy> Ceiling_Cat: thanks
2008-03-19 19:05 < Golbez> their stance is that they believe the private sector could handle your health care and insurance better; not that they believe you should be cut off completely, with previous obligations ignored.
2008-03-19 19:06 < AppleBoy> need to upload a picture somewhere soon
2008-03-19 19:06 < ThePolecat> That's what shines through each time I'm faced with it
2008-03-19 19:06 < Golbez> ThePolecat- a caring society takes my money without my permission? huh.
2008-03-19 19:06 < Golbez> is that like how a benevolent god destroys the unbelievers?
2008-03-19 19:06 < noclip> what nobody seems to mention in the healthcare debate is that it's not about the "irresponsible" 40,000,000 people without insurance being stuck with huge hospital bills, it's about them dying after being denied care that would have saved them
2008-03-19 19:06 < ThePolecat> "permission" is given by being a part of society.
2008-03-19 19:06 < ggreer> Golbez: and if you don't give them your money then they throw you in jail
2008-03-19 19:06 < noclip> you can't treat human life like a good
2008-03-19 19:06 < Golbez> ThePolecat- permission given by .. being born?
2008-03-19 19:06 < Golbez> ggreer- and if you resist arrest, they shoot you
2008-03-19 19:06 < noclip> even if you don't pay, you shouldn't die
2008-03-19 19:06 < ThePolecat> by turning 18 and still not having left, as it were.
2008-03-19 19:06 < Lubaf> Golbez: No, by eating the flesh of the living.
2008-03-19 19:06 < ThePolecat> yes.
2008-03-19 19:07 < Lubaf> Mmm, Lurkerflesh.
2008-03-19 19:07 < ggreer> noclip: that's how it works now. you cannot be denied care in an emergency
2008-03-19 19:07 < ThePolecat> I've never shot for being late with my contributions.
2008-03-19 19:07 < noclip> ggreer: except people are
2008-03-19 19:07 < ThePolecat> *been
2008-03-19 19:07 < Golbez> ThePolecat- why do they get to apply to me but my rules don't get to apply to them?
2008-03-19 19:07 < noclip> because the definition of emergency is back-asswards
2008-03-19 19:07 < ggreer> noclip: no. ERs are required by law to treat everyone
2008-03-19 19:07 * Lubaf tries to derail this conversation.
2008-03-19 19:07 < noclip> that's if you call 911
2008-03-19 19:07 < ThePolecat> Because they are the popularly-legitimized decisionmakers, not you
2008-03-19 19:08 < Golbez> so it's all about that there are more of them?
2008-03-19 19:08 < ggreer> noclip: no, even if you stumble in the ER complaining about chest pain
2008-03-19 19:08 < Lubaf> You know, eating babies is quite fun.
2008-03-19 19:08 < noclip> if you stuble into a hospital bleeding from a gunshot wound, they can say that's not an emergency
2008-03-19 19:08 < ThePolecat> no
2008-03-19 19:08 < ggreer> noclip: wrong. they have to treat you
2008-03-19 19:08 < Golbez> What then?
2008-03-19 19:08 < Lubaf> Especially if you eat 'em alive.
2008-03-19 19:08 < ThePolecat> Oh, you mean social concensus
2008-03-19 19:08 < ThePolecat> I thought you were referring to government
2008-03-19 19:08 < ggreer> noclip: if you ever worked in a hospital you would know this
2008-03-19 19:08 < Golbez> You said 'popularly legitimized'. That means more people like their rules than like my rules.
2008-03-19 19:08 < noclip> ggreer: you'd bet your life that they'd treat you if you said you didn't have insurance?
2008-03-19 19:08 < Lubaf> Come on, there has to be something I can say that will get people off health care.
2008-03-19 19:08 < ThePolecat> well to a degree such systems get installed because a majority of people voted for people supporting that
2008-03-19 19:08 < ggreer> noclip: yes. in emergencies they don't check for insurance
2008-03-19 19:09 < ggreer> they save your life, then bill you and when you can't pay you declare bankruptcy
2008-03-19 19:09 < noclip> who decides what an emergency is
2008-03-19 19:09 * bumm13 right hand finger joints hurt :(
2008-03-19 19:09 < Hello32020> I believe ggreer is right here
2008-03-19 19:09 < bumm13> he is
2008-03-19 19:09 < Hello32020> Nocilip: immediately life-threatening I believe
2008-03-19 19:09 < Lubaf> It's part of what's screwed up about the US health care system.
2008-03-19 19:09 < ggreer> noclip: staff at the hospital. and there are certain symptoms that put you at the front of the line
2008-03-19 19:09 < bumm13> and thanks to Dubya, you likely won't have your debt forgiven
2008-03-19 19:09 < Golbez> ThePolecat- and in the south there were more people that were for slavery than against it... what you supply is an argument without any moral standing, simply beholdent to the whims of the majority. Not the kind of system I'd like to be a minority in.
2008-03-19 19:09 < Golbez> and in the end, i suppose that is the fundamental question
2008-03-19 19:09 * FastLizard4 hopes Firefox is in a good mood today
2008-03-19 19:10 < Golbez> is the whim of the majority more important, or should there be some fundamental rules behind it
2008-03-19 19:10 < ThePolecat> "your rules" only apply in a commonwealth insofar as they converge with what's in the law.
2008-03-19 19:10 < Lubaf> We don't have preventative health care free, only emergencies.
2008-03-19 19:10 < ggreer> if you go into the ER complaining of chest pain, they have to admit you
2008-03-19 19:10 < ThePolecat> Rules can be fought over and changed.
2008-03-19 19:10 < ThePolecat> everyone can do that
2008-03-19 19:10 < ggreer> Lubaf: exactly. and that's why health care is so expensive
2008-03-19 19:10 < Lubaf> So the poor wait until it's an emergency, and costs about a thousand times more to fix.
2008-03-19 19:10 < noclip> how do you explain the people dying in waiting rooms?
2008-03-19 19:10 < Golbez> ThePolecat- But the majority can change (or, as they do so often with the American Constitution, ignore) the law, regardless of the rules.
2008-03-19 19:10 < AppleBoy> french hate our health care system
2008-03-19 19:10 < AppleBoy> just watch sicko
2008-03-19 19:10 < Lubaf> ANYWAY.
2008-03-19 19:10 < noclip> Lubaf: which is another reason why the insurance model is back-asswards
2008-03-19 19:10 < ThePolecat> That is exactly what happened with the Confederacy.
2008-03-19 19:11 < ThePolecat> But they got their own country
2008-03-19 19:11 < Lubaf> What's new in the world of bad ideas?
2008-03-19 19:11 < AppleBoy> I feel like an idiot right now in some ways
2008-03-19 19:11 < Golbez> Yes - the more populated north changed the rules for the less populated south.
2008-03-19 19:11 * SynergeticMag is full from chinese food
2008-03-19 19:11 < Golbez> And the south got pissed. =p
2008-03-19 19:11 < AppleBoy> O cam
2008-03-19 19:11 < ggreer> noclip: incorrect diagnoses, understaffing, poor equipment and procedures
2008-03-19 19:11 < ggreer> not all ERs are equal
2008-03-19 19:11 < Golbez> I have to go do some work in a few minutes in a wholly unregulated industry that pays me oodles (yay for computer programming), so clearly I'm stealing from... someone. Just fair warning that I'm going to go, I hate it when people disappear mid-argument.
2008-03-19 19:11 < Lubaf> All caused by the ER being the only place they can get health care at all.
2008-03-19 19:11 < AppleBoy> I can't do much on my computer because I'm importing video
2008-03-19 19:11 < AppleBoy> and I really don't want to screw that up
2008-03-19 19:11 < ThePolecat> Well, everyone is free to get a new country if they don't plan to become the majority.
2008-03-19 19:11 < ThePolecat> (in the old one)
2008-03-19 19:12 < Lubaf> ANYWAY.
2008-03-19 19:12 < Lubaf> HOW'S LARGE CAPITAL LETTERS?
2008-03-19 19:12 < Golbez> ThePolecat- so it's all about the majority? Mob rule? If you don't like it, leave?
2008-03-19 19:12 < ThePolecat> no
2008-03-19 19:12 < ThePolecat> you too can be the majority
2008-03-19 19:12 < ggreer> the problem with democracy is that people are idiots
2008-03-19 19:12 < Lubaf> DOES SHOUTING AT PEOPLE MAKE THEM LISTEN?
2008-03-19 19:12 < Golbez> Yet you just said that. You're free to leave.
2008-03-19 19:12 < Lubaf> I DESIRE AN ANSWER.
2008-03-19 19:12 < ThePolecat> and minorities need room.
2008-03-19 19:12 < ggreer> that's why you have to have a list of fundamental human rights as well
2008-03-19 19:12 < Golbez> Only if the majority doesn't vote to lynch them.
2008-03-19 19:12 < ThePolecat> (Locke)
2008-03-19 19:12 < SynergeticMag> Lubaf: desire is a tricky thing
2008-03-19 19:12 < ggreer> so two wolves can't vote to eat the one sheep
2008-03-19 19:12 < ThePolecat> well, there's badly used majority rule
2008-03-19 19:13 < FastLizard4> Lubaf: USUALLY, YES
2008-03-19 19:13 < Golbez> ggreer- but apparently those rights are drafted... by the majority
2008-03-19 19:13 < Lubaf> SynergeticMag: MAYBE, BUT MY QUESTION DESERVES AN ANSWER.
2008-03-19 19:13 < Lubaf> FastLizard4: THANK YOU.
2008-03-19 19:13 < ThePolecat> Lubaf: I'M SORRY, DID YOU SAY SOMETHING?
2008-03-19 19:13 < ggreer> Golbez: they're drafted by smart people who started the government
2008-03-19 19:13 < Golbez> since as ThePolecat said, my wealth can be confiscated from me because the majority willed it.
2008-03-19 19:13 < noclip> ggreer: insurance protects against catastrophic loss. do you agree that dealing with catastrophic loss after it happens is unacceptable for human health?
2008-03-19 19:13 < SynergeticMag> what was your question again?
2008-03-19 19:13 < Ceiling_Cat> LOUDER!
2008-03-19 19:13 < ThePolecat> Golbez: No, because positive law says so.
2008-03-19 19:13 < ggreer> and then we put all this crazy stuff in to stop people from changing the constitution
2008-03-19 19:13 < FastLizard4> I haz new messages (last change)?
2008-03-19 19:13 < Golbez> ggreer- which is precisely why America doesn't have a socialist, majoritarian system, thank god. =p But they keep trying.
2008-03-19 19:13 < Lubaf> SynergeticMag: FASTLIZARD4 ANSWERED IT FOR ME ALREADY.
2008-03-19 19:13 < LOUD_CAT> MOAR VOLUME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2008-03-19 19:13 < noclip> people's conditions should never be allowed to reach emergency status
2008-03-19 19:13 < SynergeticMag> i can barely hear, with all these words around
2008-03-19 19:13 < ThePolecat> positive as opposed to natural law
2008-03-19 19:13 < Golbez> Ellis Wyatt handled that situation best, anyway.
2008-03-19 19:14 * LOUD_CAT CANNOT MAKE OUT WHAT GOLBEZ IS WHISPERING
2008-03-19 19:14 < FastLizard4> LOUD_CAT: LOUDER!
2008-03-19 19:14 < ggreer> noclip: you're framing the argument in a way such that you're trying to force me to agree with you. there are other ways to mitigate that sort of thing
2008-03-19 19:14 < ThePolecat> they act on the authority they have from the constitution and the people through elections, bound by the constitution
2008-03-19 19:14 < Lubaf> MAYBE BY SHOUTING LOUD ENOUGH, WE CAN GET THESE PEOPLE TO STOP TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE.
2008-03-19 19:14 < ThePolecat> the question as to what to do with tyranny is another
2008-03-19 19:14 < ggreer> for example: penalties for not having insurance
2008-03-19 19:14 < noclip> ggreer: if those people dying in the waiting rooms had access to healthcare before their health problems manifested themselves as life-threatening emergencies, they wouldn't have died
2008-03-19 19:14 < Golbez> If the appropriators come to take that which you have created, destroy it. That would be preferable.
2008-03-19 19:15 < Lubaf> I DOUBT IT, THOUGH.
2008-03-19 19:15 < Lady_Aleena> Okay, for everyone who have told me to archive my talk page, IT IS DONE! :)
2008-03-19 19:15 < SynergeticMag> yay!
2008-03-19 19:15 < Golbez> "I'm leaving it as I found it. Take over. It's yours."
2008-03-19 19:15 < FastLizard4> LUBAF: WHAT'S THAT? I CAN'T QUITE HEAR YOU!
2008-03-19 19:15 < Golbez> And with that, I depart.
2008-03-19 19:15 < SynergeticMag> something i said, happened!
2008-03-19 19:15 < Golbez> Au revoir.
2008-03-19 19:15 * ThePolecat is now talking about legitimacy, not about healthcare
2008-03-19 19:15 < FastLizard4> Au revoir mon ami
2008-03-19 19:15 < ggreer> noclip: of course. I'm not defending the current system. I'm saying you're an idiot for thinking that ERs aren't required to treat people
2008-03-19 19:15 * SynergeticMag doesnt like socialism either
2008-03-19 19:15 < snowolf> FastLizard4 / Lubaf: please stop shouting
2008-03-19 19:16 < noclip> ggreer: i never said they aren't required, i said they don't
2008-03-19 19:16 < Lubaf> snowolf: We're trying to be heard over the politics.
2008-03-19 19:16 * Lady_Aleena is brain fried again, but this time from looking at her own talk page. That is bad.
2008-03-19 19:16 < Lubaf> Which drowns everything else out.
2008-03-19 19:16 < ThePolecat> nowadays, socialism is defined as everyone to the left of Ken Lay
2008-03-19 19:16 < Lubaf> For example, can you hear me now?
2008-03-19 19:16 * LOUD_CAT CRANKS UP THE VOLUME TO 11
2008-03-19 19:16 < Lubaf> No, of course not.
2008-03-19 19:16 < ggreer> noclip: then the staff (usually management) goes to jail for a very long time
2008-03-19 19:16 < snowolf> of course I can
2008-03-19 19:16 < SynergeticMag> Lady_Aleena: i went looking for my bowl, its still in your dishwasher
2008-03-19 19:16 * Hello32020 cranks up the vollume to over 9000
2008-03-19 19:16 < ThePolecat> just as terrorism is defined as "bad stuff"
2008-03-19 19:16 < ggreer> seriously, even minor stuff like HIPAA violations have tough sentences
2008-03-19 19:17 < ThePolecat> tough sentences are unbelievably useless.
2008-03-19 19:17 < NotACow> HIPAA violations don't have sentences.
2008-03-19 19:17 < NotACow> they have fines.
2008-03-19 19:17 * Lubaf brings up the word "fascist" here for the purposes of derailing the conversation.
2008-03-19 19:17 * ThePolecat doesn't believe in the power of tough sentences
2008-03-19 19:17 * Hello32020 brings up the word "communist" here for the purposes of derailing the conversation.
2008-03-19 19:17 < NotACow> most criminal law related to medical record management is state level
2008-03-19 19:17 < ThePolecat> Lubaf: That sounds like something a little Mussolini like you would say.
2008-03-19 19:18 * SynergeticMag doesnt like communism either
2008-03-19 19:18 < ThePolecat> Stalini
2008-03-19 19:18 < ggreer> NotACow: there are criminal penalties as well
2008-03-19 19:18 * SynergeticMag wishes it would go away
2008-03-19 19:18 < ThePolecat> Are you in North Korea?
2008-03-19 19:18 < ggreer> mostly related to fraud and privacy protections
2008-03-19 19:18 < noclip> ggreer: the fact remains, had those people been treated before their conditions constituted emergencies, they would not have died
2008-03-19 19:18 < ThePolecat> If yes, no dice.
2008-03-19 19:18 < NotACow> the feds only have criminal law in the medical records arena when it relates to the VA, Medicare, or Medicaid, and most of those have to do with fraud or malicious misuse, not for accidental release.
2008-03-19 19:18 * Hello32020 expresses how he is a far-right winger to derail the conversation again
2008-03-19 19:18 < Lady_Aleena> SynergeticMag: At one time I was thinking about making various subpages with ridiculous titles actually have a series purpose. Like I was going to use the Dishwasher for templates that need help, the Washing machine for articles, etc. where people could put things that they wanted me to look at.
2008-03-19 19:19 < NotACow> ggreer: {{fact}}
2008-03-19 19:19 * FastLizard4 notes that Hello32020 cannot actually raise the volume to over 9,000 since that is not an exact number, neither does it have the correct number of significant figures :P
2008-03-19 19:19 < ggreer> noclip: maybe, maybe not. I think universal health care would be good but I have a feeling a lot of people would still be dumb and not go to the hospital until it's too late
2008-03-19 19:19 < ThePolecat> Most people are mad at me for being not radical enough though.
2008-03-19 19:19 < Hello32020> I am aganist socialized healthcare :D
2008-03-19 19:19 < SynergeticMag> well, i need to put the rest of my dirty dishes in there somewhere
2008-03-19 19:19 < SynergeticMag> b/c i dont want to wash them
2008-03-19 19:19 < noclip> if you walk into a hospital (not ER) and say you think you have a tumor, are they required to check if it is?
2008-03-19 19:19 < ThePolecat> people get frustrated about people that aren't easily bumperstickered
2008-03-19 19:19 * NotACow thinks she should get free health care, but the rest of you suckers can sod off.
2008-03-19 19:20 * ThePolecat is for socialized prostitution
2008-03-19 19:20 < NotACow> then again, i spent most of today at the hospital.
2008-03-19 19:20 < noclip> ggreer: so we should let the ones who aren't dumb but are poor die because of the dumb ones?
2008-03-19 19:20 < ThePolecat> Not really.
2008-03-19 19:20 * SynergeticMag wonders why or more precisely, how, this chat turned into wikipedia-politics
2008-03-19 19:20 < Lady_Aleena> There hasn't been a bumper sticker that has excited me enough to want to put it on my car.
2008-03-19 19:20 < ThePolecat> But I thought it'd be good for trolling
2008-03-19 19:21 < ggreer> Offenses committed under false pretenses allow penalties to be increased to a $100,000 fine, with up to five years in prison. Finally, offenses committed with the intent to sell, transfer, or use individually identifiable health information for commercial advantage, personal gain or malicious harm permit fines of $250,000, and imprisonment for up to ten years.
2008-03-19 19:21 < ggreer> NotACow: http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/11805.html
2008-03-19 19:21 < ThePolecat> thats insane
2008-03-19 19:21 < ThePolecat> well, compared to other sentences, maybe not
2008-03-19 19:21 < noclip> you walk into the hospital, whether you say you have a headache or a gunshot wound, you should be treated
2008-03-19 19:21 < ThePolecat> the only thing you get ten years for here is killing a dude or rape
2008-03-19 19:21 < ggreer> noclip: there are not an infinite number of staff. not everyone can be treated immediately
2008-03-19 19:21 < noclip> the guy with the gunshot wound should obviously be treated first
2008-03-19 19:22 < ggreer> noclip: but what if the guy complaining of a headache is having a stroke?
2008-03-19 19:22 < noclip> but the guy with the headache shouldn't be told to fuck off until he's at the verge of death and come back
2008-03-19 19:22 < ggreer> he would nod off in the waiting room and be found dead later
2008-03-19 19:22 < ggreer> you can't treat everyone right away, so you just have to go by the symptoms
2008-03-19 19:22 < ThePolecat> noclip: that dying leech!
2008-03-19 19:22 < SynergeticMag> ggreer: thats why we havemore than one doctor
2008-03-19 19:22 < NotACow> ggreer: so, basically, fraud.
2008-03-19 19:22 < Golbez> So I just read about the Majorly/Alison/East718 saga, and I want someone to bitch at.
2008-03-19 19:23 < NotACow> ggreer: and malicious misue.
2008-03-19 19:23 < NotACow> ggreer: as i said.
2008-03-19 19:23 * ThePolecat is for socialized laissez-faire
2008-03-19 19:23 < NotACow> ggreer: that's a tiny fraction of HIPAA violations.
2008-03-19 19:23 < ggreer> NotACow: yeah, but it's also mentioned in hipaa penalties
2008-03-19 19:23 < noclip> ggreer: treat people in the order of the seriousness of their conditions
2008-03-19 19:23 < noclip> but treat them all
2008-03-19 19:23 < Golbez> ThePolecat- how do you pull that off
2008-03-19 19:23 < ThePolecat> It's a nonsense proposal to derail things.
2008-03-19 19:23 < ggreer> noclip: like I said, that's how ERs work today
2008-03-19 19:23 * SynergeticMag is for bringing Ayn Rand into the conversation
2008-03-19 19:23 < ThePolecat> but psh.
2008-03-19 19:23 < Golbez> Oh.
2008-03-19 19:23 < SynergeticMag> well not really :)
2008-03-19 19:23 < Golbez> SynergeticMag- too late, I already brought up Wyatt Oil
2008-03-19 19:24 < NotACow> hipaa has had one nice effect: it has made open hospital wards effectively illegal.
2008-03-19 19:24 < Golbez> So really, who can I bitch at? Because this makes me pissed.
2008-03-19 19:24 < noclip> ggreer: people don't go to the ER for headaches
2008-03-19 19:24 < NotACow> noclip: yes, they do
2008-03-19 19:24 < ggreer> noclip: yeah, they do
2008-03-19 19:24 < noclip> alright, really serious headaches
2008-03-19 19:24 * ThePolecat accuses someone of "quasi-suggesting that Verizon will cook their puppies"
2008-03-19 19:24 < NotACow> noclip: people go into the ER because their toenails need to be trimmed.
2008-03-19 19:24 < NotACow> noclip: people go to the ER because they're lonely.
2008-03-19 19:24 < ggreer> ever take a look at the boards for a typical ER? like half of the patients are stupid stuff like that
2008-03-19 19:25 < NotACow> noclip: people go to the ER because they're cold and want a cup of coffee.
2008-03-19 19:25 < ggreer> lots of people complaining of chest pain
2008-03-19 19:25 < noclip> then the system is broken in yet another way
2008-03-19 19:25 < ggreer> because they know that means at least an overnight stay
2008-03-19 19:25 < ThePolecat> Because they want to meet George Clooney
2008-03-19 19:25 < noclip> you should get care, even without insurance, outside the ER
2008-03-19 19:25 < noclip> for your toenails and headaches
2008-03-19 19:25 < ggreer> noclip: oh, so the government should cut my toenails for me?
2008-03-19 19:25 < ggreer> :)
2008-03-19 19:25 < Hello32020> Do you guys think it would be good if on the talk-page of articles, there was a listing of how many views that article has to incentivize people into creating articles people look at frequently?
2008-03-19 19:25 < ThePolecat> the last time I was in an ER, my kneecap had popped out
2008-03-19 19:25 < Golbez> I almost feel like bringing up a recall/rfcadmin on this.
2008-03-19 19:25 < NotACow> noclip: yes, but you can't.
2008-03-19 19:25 < ThePolecat> "the government"
2008-03-19 19:25 * ThePolecat snickers
2008-03-19 19:25 * NotACow spent the whole day at the hospital today
2008-03-19 19:26 < ThePolecat> that phrase is used in a wonderfully broad sense
2008-03-19 19:26 < SynergeticMag> who bout no
2008-03-19 19:26 < SynergeticMag> or how bout no
2008-03-19 19:26 < NotACow> it would have been TWO days if we had HillaryCare, i bet
2008-03-19 19:26 < ggreer> I used to write medical software. you get to learn all about how hospitals work :/
2008-03-19 19:26 < Golbez> kelly
2008-03-19 19:26 < Hello32020> ^^ what do you guys think?
2008-03-19 19:26 < Golbez> actually nm
2008-03-19 19:26 < NotACow> Golbez, yes, dear?
2008-03-19 19:26 < noclip> so how much do ERs charge for toenail clipping?
2008-03-19 19:26 < Hello32020> *I meant improving articles
2008-03-19 19:26 < Golbez> I was going to say 'please tell me you'll have a post on this clusterfuck' but maybe it's not worth the effort
2008-03-19 19:26 < SynergeticMag> Hello32020: uh
2008-03-19 19:26 < noclip> i'd imagine it's insanely high
2008-03-19 19:26 < NotACow> noclip: $250 per toenail
2008-03-19 19:26 < ThePolecat> NotACow: Yea, because the whole of Latin America would have been in line before you.
2008-03-19 19:27 < ggreer> noclip: everything is insanely highly priced in the ER, because a huge percentage of patients can't/don't pay
2008-03-19 19:27 < noclip> nobody's going to pay that, and nobody's going to declare bankruptcy every time they need their toenails clipped
2008-03-19 19:27 < ggreer> so you have to charge those who can pay more
2008-03-19 19:27 < NotACow> noclip: believe it or not, they really do do toecare in ERs, mainly for diabetics who lack health insurance
2008-03-19 19:27 < ThePolecat> Plus, the flight back from Cuba takes time
2008-03-19 19:27 < Golbez> I'm annoyed that I'm pissed, yet the ANI thread is 'preserved' and I have nowhere to bitch except directly on east718's talk page. =p
2008-03-19 19:27 < NotACow> my son had a four-hour MRI today
2008-03-19 19:29 < NotACow> noclip: ERs are the only source of health care for uninsured patients.
2008-03-19 19:29 < ThePolecat> brave boy
2008-03-19 19:29 < NotACow> noclip: which is someting like 25% of the US population
2008-03-19 19:29 < ThePolecat> brb
2008-03-19 19:29 < NotACow> noclip: so if you have something that you can't treat with selfmedication, you go to the ER.
2008-03-19 19:30 < Golbez> NotACow- or pay for it with your own money.
2008-03-19 19:30 < Golbez> not all of that 25% are uninsured because they're poor.
2008-03-19 19:30 < SynergeticMag> define self medication
2008-03-19 19:30 < NotACow> Golbez: there are vanishingly few people who are uninsured and have enough money to pay for care.
2008-03-19 19:30 < Golbez> i'm uninsured because they wanted $400 a month in NC. I pay less than $1000 a year in my routine medical bills.
2008-03-19 19:30 < shimgray> SynergeticMag: you go buy it off the shelf and take it
2008-03-19 19:30 < NotACow> Golbez: and if you get seriously ill you'll be going to the ER
2008-03-19 19:30 < Golbez> But I certainly have enough money to pay for both my routine care and a suprise oops.
2008-03-19 19:31 < Golbez> Well yes, but because I don't have a GP, not because I'm uninsured. =p
2008-03-19 19:31 < Golbez> If I had a GP here I'd go to him first, unless he were closed.
2008-03-19 19:31 < NotACow> Golbez: and you'll be going to the charity hospital, too, because none of the other hospitals will see you without insurance.
2008-03-19 19:32 < NotACow> if you don't have insurance, and you're injured, you will be streeted unless you happen to be at the local charity hospital
2008-03-19 19:32 < Ceiling_Cat> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrLunNRBE0c
2008-03-19 19:32 < NotACow> "treat and street"
2008-03-19 19:32 < Golbez> Which is quite moronic. They should bill.
2008-03-19 19:32 < NotACow> Golbez: why bill? you're not going to pay.
2008-03-19 19:32 < Golbez> Why not?
2008-03-19 19:32 < NotACow> Golbez: i was in the hospital for 20 hours a while back. you want to know what the bill was?
2008-03-19 19:33 < Golbez> Sure
2008-03-19 19:33 < NotACow> Golbez: $8900.
2008-03-19 19:33 < Golbez> That sucks
2008-03-19 19:33 < NotACow> Golbez: that's typical.
2008-03-19 19:33 < NotACow> Golbez: a single day admission to the genreal ward around here is $1250 a day
2008-03-19 19:34 < NotACow> Golbez: ER care is billed at $139 an hour, last i checked
2008-03-19 19:34 < ThePolecat> people don't die of conditions they can pay to handle.
2008-03-19 19:34 < Golbez> I'm not saying we have no problems, we do. However, I'm saying there's lots of different ways (and no single way) to improve the situation.
2008-03-19 19:34 < NotACow> Golbez: my son has run up nearly $10,000 in medical bills so far this year
2008-03-19 19:34 < NotACow> Golbez: actually probably more than that by now
2008-03-19 19:34 < Golbez> I had the benefit of being insured (BCBS/GA) when I had my eye problems.
2008-03-19 19:35 < Golbez> But I guess they figured I was getting closer and closer to that inevitable cataract surgery, and didn't want to actually pay for it, so they started charging me horrific amounts per month.
2008-03-19 19:35 < NotACow> Golbez: actually, it's probably a lot more than that, but i haven't seen the bills for the biopsy yet
2008-03-19 19:35 < Golbez> If only the insurance system weren't moronic. I can't believe it got that way on its own.
2008-03-19 19:35 < NotACow> Golbez: get into a group plan.
2008-03-19 19:35 < Golbez> Surely it was prodded in that direction by the government.
2008-03-19 19:36 < NotACow> Golbez: personal insurance is "the best insurance money can buy for people who don't need it"
2008-03-19 19:36 < NotACow> Golbez: you need it, which is why you can't get it.
2008-03-19 19:36 < Golbez> Eh, I'll eventually be eligible for my girlfriend's corporate insurance.
2008-03-19 19:36 < kenlyric> you gotta marry that shit!
2008-03-19 19:36 < Golbez> that includes dental!
2008-03-19 19:36 < NotACow> Golbez: the government has very little to do with the insurance industry, except insofar as they've allowed it to operate the way it does.
2008-03-19 19:36 < kenlyric> we tried to get on my wife's domestic partner benefits when she had a job with insurance and I didn't
2008-03-19 19:37 < NotACow> Golbez: it's been driven in the direction it's gone mainly by corporate greed.
2008-03-19 19:37 < ShakespeareFan00> Why the US doesn't have a National Healthcare system funded by income taxes...
2008-03-19 19:37 < ShakespeareFan00> is presumably because that's communisim
2008-03-19 19:38 < kenlyric> GO BACK TO PRUSSIA!
2008-03-19 19:38 < NotACow> ShakespeareFan00: because we want to get our healthcare in a timely manner
2008-03-19 19:38 < Golbez> basically, yes
2008-03-19 19:38 * ThePolecat already is in Prussia.
2008-03-19 19:38 < ThePolecat> What do I do?
2008-03-19 19:38 < NotACow> the NHS is a roving clusterfuck
2008-03-19 19:38 < ShakespeareFan00> The NHS is lovely idea, if you eleminate the competition and fund it properly
2008-03-19 19:38 < ShakespeareFan00> :(
2008-03-19 19:38 < Hello32020> lol I'm part Prussian
2008-03-19 19:38 < NotACow> and let's not even talk about the anal pear experience that is OHIP.
2008-03-19 19:38 < kenlyric> NHS
2008-03-19 19:39 < kenlyric> sorry, abfab flashback
2008-03-19 19:39 < shimgray> NotACow: for every story of someone on a waiting list, there's one like my friend Ali who walked in on Friday saying sorry to be a bother, but could he talk to someone about this migraine? and had the tumour removed by Sunday morning.
2008-03-19 19:39 * ThePolecat squats in a British hospital
2008-03-19 19:39 < Golbez> if i had $10 million dollars, i would try starting a health insurance company, with different methods and rules. I wonder, surely I'm not the only one with that idea; is there a reason why the all-or-nothing model of health insurance prevails?
2008-03-19 19:39 < NotACow> shimgray: NHS is a mixed bag, to be sure.
2008-03-19 19:39 < NotACow> shimgray: it probably depends a whole lot on where you live.
2008-03-19 19:40 < shimgray> the system is... a lot less bad than it sounds, because we get entitled over it and we like to complain
2008-03-19 19:40 < kenlyric> Golbez: yes, those companies are failing right now
2008-03-19 19:40 < Golbez> i have some pretty keen ideas on how to run a health insurance company
2008-03-19 19:40 < shimgray> (because it's an absolute part of national life. you know how people always bitch about their relatives? you're in that sort of territory)
2008-03-19 19:40 < Golbez> kenlyric- which, the all-or-nothings, or the ones that compete against them? (and are there any that compete against them?)
2008-03-19 19:40 * ThePolecat once was turned down for lacking insurance green light in the morning, drove across the city to get a prescription, drove on to get green light, drove back to the hospital and got served.
2008-03-19 19:40 < kenlyric> npr just did a story on alternative health insurance companies last week
2008-03-19 19:40 < ShakespeareFan00> The NHS worked for a 1950's socio-economic model
2008-03-19 19:41 < Golbez> kenlyric- and?
2008-03-19 19:41 < shimgray> oh god, this is going to be an amusing discourse
2008-03-19 19:41 < NotACow> my son's NF-1 has made us "frequent fliers" at LUHS, but so far it's been only moderately annoying financially
2008-03-19 19:42 < NotACow> he had a marathon four-hour MRI today for monitoring purposes
2008-03-19 19:42 < NotASpy> ShakespeareFan00: and it still works perfectly well.
2008-03-19 19:42 < NotACow> he'll get the same scan again in six months probably.
2008-03-19 19:42 < NotACow> and then every year after that
2008-03-19 19:42 < ShakespeareFan00> NotASpy: It doesn't
2008-03-19 19:42 < NotACow> for the rest of his life
2008-03-19 19:42 < NotASpy> ShakespeareFan00: have you ever had problems with the NHS ?
2008-03-19 19:42 < ShakespeareFan00> Yes...
2008-03-19 19:42 < NotACow> or until they develop a better scanning methodology, or a cure
2008-03-19 19:42 < ShakespeareFan00> Waiting lists
2008-03-19 19:42 < Golbez> kenlyric- i'm very interested now, i didn't know there were any. what did it say?
2008-03-19 19:43 < NotACow> so i'm kinda touchy about both waiting lists and health care entitlements
2008-03-19 19:43 < ShakespeareFan00> in respect of 'waterworks' when a teenager
2008-03-19 19:43 < NotASpy> ShakespeareFan00: if that's all you've got to complain about, you're bloody lucky.
2008-03-19 19:44 * NotACow is going to go back to trying to memorize all of Element 3
2008-03-19 19:44 < NotACow> "A. Use larger diameter elements"
2008-03-19 19:44 < ShakespeareFan00> Thankfully at that time Superbugs hadn't yet appeard
2008-03-19 19:45 < ShakespeareFan00> (which is mainly due to mismanagment of cleaning)
2008-03-19 19:45 < NotASpy> no, it's actually evolution, but let's not go there.
2008-03-19 19:45 < shimgray> ah, yes, methicillin-resistant staph is due to bad cleaning, not at all to, er, overuse of methicillin
2008-03-19 19:46 < shimgray> and, son, if you think you know how to keep a hospital clean? you're almost certainly wrong.
2008-03-19 19:46 < shimgray> it's not nearly as simple as the Daily Mail makes it sound, it's not just "oh, we forgot to wash the floors for a year"
2008-03-19 19:48 < NotASpy> indeed, we're talking about bacteria, they easily get into things like the hinges of doors, threads of screws holding sinks on walls, anything you can think would be free from MRSA is completely covered.
2008-03-19 19:50 < Golbez> change of topic http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9531/beachburjos4.jpg
2008-03-19 19:50 < ShakespeareFan00> the Daily Mail moaning about dirty hospitals actually distorts the issue
2008-03-19 19:51 < Golbez> and also the one from earlier today: http://i26.tinypic.com/5pw7o.jpg
2008-03-19 19:52 < Golbez> ugh, ethanol is such a clusterfuck.
2008-03-19 19:53 < Golbez> now it's making wheat much more expensive
2008-03-19 19:53 < Golbez> corn is already much more expensive
2008-03-19 19:53 < NotASpy> they've come up with a process to get both ethanol and grain from the same plant at the same time though.
2008-03-19 19:53 < Golbez> for the payoff of.. what? a few million barrels a year?
2008-03-19 19:53 < Golbez> moronic
2008-03-19 19:54 < Rinn> Golbez: Reminds me of the Jetsons movie.
2008-03-19 19:54 < Golbez> oh
2008-03-19 19:54 < Golbez> oh no that's gallons
2008-03-19 19:54 < NotASpy> Golbez: indeed. All of which will be wasted hauling the stuff about from processing plant to processing plant.
2008-03-19 19:54 < Golbez> 4.855b gallons per year from the US
2008-03-19 19:55 < Golbez> a barrel of oil is 42 gallons
2008-03-19 19:55 < Golbez> so that's 115 million barrels
2008-03-19 19:55 < Golbez> how much does the US use?
2008-03-19 19:56 < Random832> eh
2008-03-19 19:56 < shimgray> CIA factbook will have a number
2008-03-19 19:56 < Golbez> 7.5 billion barrels per year
2008-03-19 19:56 < Random832> people need to get their heads out of their asses on nuclear energy
2008-03-19 19:56 < Golbez> so...
2008-03-19 19:56 < NotASpy> isn't this theoretical numbers, based on growing nothing else ?
2008-03-19 19:56 < Golbez> our wheat has *doubled* in price
2008-03-19 19:56 < Golbez> for the equivalent of 5 days of gas
2008-03-19 19:56 < Golbez> goddamn, sometimes I feel crappy about living in this state
2008-03-19 19:56 < Mark_Ryan> why can't oil producers start quoting oil prices in terms of litres? it'll sound much cheaper
2008-03-19 19:56 < Golbez> king corn woo
2008-03-19 19:57 < Random832> have a good electric infrastructure, cars that can be charged (whether batteries or hydrogen fuel cells) from electricity
2008-03-19 19:57 < Random832> and generate nuclear energy
2008-03-19 19:57 < Golbez> of course, it's made the local economy quite strong, and i benefit from that
2008-03-19 19:57 < shimgray> why can't they stop quoting in in dollars, that's what I want to know
2008-03-19 19:57 < Golbez> but that doesn't mean i can't bitch =p
2008-03-19 19:57 < Golbez> shimgray- because it's sold in dollars.
2008-03-19 19:57 < shimgray> pick a meaningful and stable currency. heck, cowrie shells would be an improvement
2008-03-19 19:57 < Random832> it shouldn't be
2008-03-19 19:57 < Random832> didn't we invade iraq, though, to stop them from switching to the euro?
2008-03-19 19:57 < ggreer> electric cars are too slow
2008-03-19 19:57 < Golbez> the petroeuro would have to replace the petrodollar
2008-03-19 19:58 < ggreer> I want rocket cars
2008-03-19 19:58 < NotASpy> ggreer: bollocks.
2008-03-19 19:58 < Golbez> i want cars pulled by actual fossils
2008-03-19 19:58 < Random832> lol
2008-03-19 19:58 < The359> electric cars have better torque than gasoline cars
2008-03-19 19:58 < ggreer> NotASpy: sure they have the torque but those batteries weigh a ton
2008-03-19 19:58 < Random832> have a velociraptor skeleton tied to it
2008-03-19 19:58 < NotASpy> electric cars can quite easily out accelerate and outrun a petrol car.
2008-03-19 19:58 < Golbez> speaking of which
2008-03-19 19:58 < ggreer> NotASpy: but electric motorcycles are slow as hell
2008-03-19 19:58 < The359> outaccelerate, yes
2008-03-19 19:58 < Golbez> has Tesla Motors dones anything yet?
2008-03-19 19:58 < The359> not necessarily outrun
2008-03-19 19:58 < ggreer> Golbez: they've taken money
2008-03-19 19:58 < NotASpy> ggreer: yeah, but that but lump of cast iron weights about ton.
2008-03-19 19:59 < Random832> so forget batteries
2008-03-19 19:59 < The359> They announced the beginning of production yesterday I believe, ggreer
2008-03-19 19:59 < Random832> hydrogen fuel cells can be charged with electricity can't they?
2008-03-19 19:59 < The359> after overcoming the gearbox issues
2008-03-19 19:59 < rofl666> Random832: rofl
2008-03-19 19:59 < Golbez> The359- you mean me? sweet
2008-03-19 19:59 < sputnick_> is there something to convert pdf to wp ?
2008-03-19 19:59 < The359> erm, yeah
2008-03-19 19:59 < The359> Golbez
2008-03-19 19:59 < Golbez> "Production of the rest of the cars reserved started on March 17th." yay
2008-03-19 19:59 < ggreer> NotASpy: cast iron? the lotus elise is faster than the zytek version of it
2008-03-19 19:59 < Golbez> i'd love to see this work out
2008-03-19 19:59 < Golbez> here's the question, though:
2008-03-19 20:00 < The359> they're still too expensive
2008-03-19 20:00 < Golbez> they say the US has 200 years of coal left
2008-03-19 20:00 < Golbez> but hypothetically
2008-03-19 20:00 < ggreer> also electric cars are too quiet
2008-03-19 20:00 < ggreer> cars that go fast must be loud
2008-03-19 20:00 < Golbez> if all the cars on the road converted to being electric
2008-03-19 20:00 < Golbez> we'd need more coal to generate the needed electricity
2008-03-19 20:00 < Golbez> what would our coal reserves be then?
2008-03-19 20:00 < ggreer> Golbez: beats me, but coal is bad. nuclear ftw
2008-03-19 20:01 < Golbez> nuclear doesn't exactly have unlimited fuel either
2008-03-19 20:01 < Golbez> fusion ftw
2008-03-19 20:01 < ShakespeareFan00> Golbez: Have you read the various comments about alterantive energy being sinks?
2008-03-19 20:01 < The359> Fisker's all electric car claims they'll include speakers to replicate engine noises, ggreer
2008-03-19 20:01 < ggreer> actually yeah, nuclear fuel would last arbitrarily long
2008-03-19 20:01 < NotASpy> ggreer: yeah, but not for long. 100 years of developing petrol cars will give them a bit of an advantage over electric cars, but it's not much of an advantage.
2008-03-19 20:01 < ggreer> The359: that's just tacky
2008-03-19 20:01 < ShakespeareFan00> And that America needs to radically change it's consumption patterns?
2008-03-19 20:01 < Golbez> ITER comes online in only ...
2008-03-19 20:01 < Golbez> 8 years!!
2008-03-19 20:02 * The359 wonders how much the electric Lotus Elise cost
2008-03-19 20:02 < NotASpy> who here has energy saving light bulbs ?