freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-18 12:57 < TheWeasel> someone was just fired from the post station of the Bundestag because he wouldn't quit wearing a brand of clothes commonly associated with neo-nazis
2008-03-18 12:57 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - in his mind?
2008-03-18 12:57 < Ceiling_Cat> germans can be fired for wearing the wrong brand of clothing?
2008-03-18 12:57 < ShakespeareFan00> qunaticle: TRENTON, (It's in NJ!?)
2008-03-18 12:57 < quanticle> TheWeasel: You mean a specific clothing label?
2008-03-18 12:57 < TheWeasel> Yea
2008-03-18 12:57 < TheWeasel> Thor Steinar
2008-03-18 12:57 < Demi> man, you haven't been in court until you've argued in front the Dark Bench of Dread
2008-03-18 12:57 < Ceiling_Cat> wow... that's creepy
2008-03-18 12:58 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Oh. Whoa. Here in the US, that'd be pretty much grounds for a lawsuit.
2008-03-18 12:58 < TheWeasel> it is here as well.
2008-03-18 12:58 < Ceiling_Cat> "A 24-year old man from Berlin's Marzahn district was given a suspended 7-month jail sentence and 150 hours of community work for wearing the former logo of the Thor Steiner clothes label, which is popular among right-wing extremists ... In the opinion of the court, the runes logo bore a strong similarity to symbols of unconstitutional organisations ...
2008-03-18 12:58 < TheWeasel> we'll see.
2008-03-18 12:58 < Ceiling_Cat> apparently wearing it makes you a criminal
2008-03-18 12:58 < TheWeasel> Is that new?
2008-03-18 12:58 < bumm13> that's ridiculous
2008-03-18 12:58 < Demi> right, no one would ever fire you from your job in the u.s. for wearing gang colors or piercings
2008-03-18 12:58 < Ceiling_Cat> TheWeasel - 2006
2008-03-18 12:59 < TheWeasel> Yea, the initial Thor Steinar case
2008-03-18 12:59 < TheWeasel> that one has been struck down
2008-03-18 12:59 < TheWeasel> BUT
2008-03-18 12:59 < TheWeasel> the charge was a specific one
2008-03-18 12:59 < ideogram> references to naziism are taken very seriously in Germany, as threats to the state.
2008-03-18 12:59 < quanticle> Demi: I don't know about that. Schools are a special case.
2008-03-18 12:59 < TheWeasel> because parts of the Thor Steinar logo where similar to Nazi organization logos
2008-03-18 12:59 < ShakespeareFan00> quanticle; Why does the US not have uniforms in public schools?
2008-03-18 13:00 < TheWeasel> *were
2008-03-18 13:00 < Demi> ShakespeareFan00 - some do
2008-03-18 13:00 < ideogram> perhaps similar to how racism is viewed in the US.
2008-03-18 13:00 < TheWeasel> but then it was said they weren't similar enough to be grounds for conviction
2008-03-18 13:00 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: People tend to sue when they're introduced. Apparently the first amendment covers the right to wear what you want.
2008-03-18 13:00 < TheWeasel> but being employed by the government is another matter
2008-03-18 13:00 < TheWeasel> and the battle rages on
2008-03-18 13:00 < ShakespeareFan00> quanticle : Hmm
2008-03-18 13:00 < ShakespeareFan00> Provided it's not indecent presumably
2008-03-18 13:01 < Demi> i think charter schools and other "optional" schools have uniforms sometimes
2008-03-18 13:01 < Demi> yeah, and doesn't have anything sharp
2008-03-18 13:01 < ShakespeareFan00> You can't claim it's a first ammendment right not to wear clothes at all :)
2008-03-18 13:01 < quanticle> Demi: Right. And, in some places, I've even heard of public schools having uniforms. However, here, when they tried to introduce uniforms in one of the schools, there was a rather large furor.
2008-03-18 13:01 < Demi> you can claim it
2008-03-18 13:02 < TheWeasel> yea, what's the literalist opinion on the extent of "speech" these days?
2008-03-18 13:02 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Well there are decency rules, of course.
2008-03-18 13:02 < Demi> it's not clear to me that it isn't covered
2008-03-18 13:02 < quanticle> Demi: It depends on the jurisdiction, but most places allow public decency laws to be enforced.
2008-03-18 13:02 < quanticle> Demi: This is why streaking in most cases is illegal.
2008-03-18 13:02 < Demi> here there is a city ordinance that requires you to cover your genitals in our central park and part of the CBD, otherwise anything goes
2008-03-18 13:03 * TheWeasel is happy that common "indecency" has been largely de-criminalized here
2008-03-18 13:03 < Demi> quanticle - i think it's an open question whether you can make different rules for men and women
2008-03-18 13:03 < TheWeasel> there used to be an offense called "egregious mischief" that covered it all
2008-03-18 13:04 < Demi> to be honest, it's kind of silly to restrict just nudity at all
2008-03-18 13:05 < Demi> that's a bit different than public sex, which is what our ordinance is more or less about, and i think it's exactly right
2008-03-18 13:05 < TheWeasel> today, government is mostly in the business of protecting people, not of upholding its idea of correct behavior
2008-03-18 13:05 < ShakespeareFan00> Speaking of clothing - http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,542211,00.html
2008-03-18 13:05 < ShakespeareFan00> Apparently a ban on head scraves has been upheld :(
2008-03-18 13:06 < TheWeasel> yea, most public opinion is against
2008-03-18 13:06 < TheWeasel> well, teachers
2008-03-18 13:06 < TheWeasel> they must be religiously neutral.
2008-03-18 13:06 < Demi> the line between a government that is free from religion and one that suppresses one is kind of a difficult one to negotiate
2008-03-18 13:06 < TheWeasel> that battle has gone on for a bit as well
2008-03-18 13:06 < TheWeasel> brb
2008-03-18 13:06 < ShakespeareFan00> Yeah, but how is not allowing people to express a religous duty not a problem?
2008-03-18 13:07 < Demi> especially when you consider a government's responsibility to citizens like children who live under the power of someone else
2008-03-18 13:07 < TheWeasel> If you're not allowed to influence your pupils, it is.
2008-03-18 13:07 < TheWeasel> brb
2008-03-18 13:07 < quanticle> Demi: The one thing that gets me is the massive difference in punishment for certain sex crimes. For example, if two 17 year olds are caught snogging, the boy usually ends up as a registered sex-offender - marking his record permanently, while the girl gets away scot free, even though the act was consensua.
2008-03-18 13:07 < quanticle> *consensual.
2008-03-18 13:08 < Demi> ShakespeareFan00 - but in school you're talking about a specific accommodation. is this not along the same continuum that gives us time for praying in school?
2008-03-18 13:08 < ShakespeareFan00> quanticle: Well they way it's treated in the UK , The boy ought to have known better...
2008-03-18 13:08 < Demi> quanticle - yes, that's incorrect, although you'll find that varies a lot by jurisdiction
2008-03-18 13:08 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 so its right for someone to get listed as a sex offender for having sex with someone the same age has him, consensually?
2008-03-18 13:08 < ShakespeareFan00> Demi: Why shouldn't you allow prayer time in school, provided it's done impartially
2008-03-18 13:08 < Demi> (incorrect, meaning, i don't agree with that, not that you're wrong)
2008-03-18 13:09 < Demi> ShakespeareFan00 - how could that possibly be done impartially?
2008-03-18 13:09 < ShakespeareFan00> Leslie_S: The law has limits on conduct for a reason..
2008-03-18 13:09 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 and the girl should get off with nothing at all?
2008-03-18 13:09 < NotASpy> ShakespeareFan00: what a complete and utter load of bollocks.
2008-03-18 13:09 < ShakespeareFan00> I am not saying it's fair
2008-03-18 13:09 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 its unfair, and its reasonable to not follow unfair laws.
2008-03-18 13:09 < Demi> ShakespeareFan00 - how can you not single me out for not praying and not take time out of *my* day and yet accommodate praying by my classmate?
2008-03-18 13:09 < ShakespeareFan00> But you woudl agree that the majority of sexual crime is male orignated?
2008-03-18 13:10 < Demi> in fact, i think it's probably unfair to require anyone to declare a religious affiliation to go to school.
2008-03-18 13:10 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 no. men just dont report it when women rape them.
2008-03-18 13:10 < ShakespeareFan00> Leslie_S: The law is to be obeyed..
2008-03-18 13:10 < NotASpy> the very act of praying, and the manner in which a religion dictates prayers must occur etc remove any chance praying could be done impartially.
2008-03-18 13:10 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 theres also a serious legal bias against it.
2008-03-18 13:10 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Doesn't mean that the law should punish one side in a consensual act more than another.
2008-03-18 13:10 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 dont be holier than thou. if the law is unreasonable, im not going to follow it.
2008-03-18 13:10 < ShakespeareFan00> Leslie_S: LOL
2008-03-18 13:11 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: If that sort of thing is wrong, prosecute both partners equally.
2008-03-18 13:11 < ShakespeareFan00> So you would steal a car if it was justified?
2008-03-18 13:11 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 no. Laws that ban stealing physical property are totally reasonable.
2008-03-18 13:11 < TheWeasel> "unreasonable" is not a factor in the validity of a law, just in its mode of application
2008-03-18 13:11 < Demi> personally, i don't agree with a headscarf ban, but i see the point; and i do agree with not accommodating prayer in school. to me they are part of the same continuum, and i happen to think the line falls *here*, but i can see how someone would argue it falls *there* or *there*
2008-03-18 13:11 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 however, i do "steal" music sometimes. Like, if i hear a song on the radio and am considering buying a cd its on, and i want to see if i like other songs on the cd?
2008-03-18 13:11 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: I don't accept this policy of, "The boy should have known better." It smacks of reverse discrimination.
2008-03-18 13:11 < Demi> ShakespeareFan00 - of course you would
2008-03-18 13:12 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 or if i DONT like other songs from that artist, and only want that song.
2008-03-18 13:12 < Demi> if someone was critically injured and i had no way to notify anyone, of course i would take a car that didn't belong to me to get them to a hospital
2008-03-18 13:12 < ShakespeareFan00> Leslie_S: Hmm So stealing bread to feed yourself if you have no money is reasonable ?
2008-03-18 13:12 < Demi> you would have to be sick otherwise
2008-03-18 13:12 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 the cool part is when i actually do buy cds, i usually get them for around $5... :P
2008-03-18 13:12 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 no.
2008-03-18 13:12 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 dont even go there.
2008-03-18 13:13 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 however, it is incredibly easy to get away with minor theft at big box grocery stores....
2008-03-18 13:13 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Of course it is. You have the right to life.
2008-03-18 13:13 < Demi> and yes, stealing bread might be reasonable, though in developed countries that's a gedanken experiment, not a real thing.
2008-03-18 13:13 < ShakespeareFan00> The Police and store owners wouldn't agree
2008-03-18 13:13 < Demi> ShakespeareFan00 - so you're saying that you would allow a person to bleed to death because the law tells you you can't drive a nearby car? nice.
2008-03-18 13:14 < ShakespeareFan00> And some homless people in the UK do steal things like razor baldes and hygine products
2008-03-18 13:14 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: That's because, in any reasonably civilized country, there are alternatives, such as welfare programs.
2008-03-18 13:14 < ShakespeareFan00> Demi: of course not
2008-03-18 13:14 < ShakespeareFan00> qunticle: Erm.
2008-03-18 13:14 < ShakespeareFan00> Yeas there were welfare programs , which exist to protect the government from actually tackling the reasons for poverty
2008-03-18 13:14 < Demi> "[11:11:06] ShakespeareFan00: So you would steal a car if it was justified?" <- my answer to this is "of course"
2008-03-18 13:15 < ShakespeareFan00> and the embarsment of actually having to do something about it
2008-03-18 13:15 < Leslie_S> I actually broke into someones car once.
2008-03-18 13:15 < Leslie_S> But it was justified.
2008-03-18 13:15 < Leslie_S> :D
2008-03-18 13:15 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: But, in your hypothetical case, if there was a breakdown in law and order, and I had to steal food, of course I'd do it, and consider myself perfectly justified in doing so.
2008-03-18 13:15 < Demi> what quanticle is saying is that there is no real situation of "if i do not steal this bread, i will die"; though if there were, of course you must do it.
2008-03-18 13:15 < Leslie_S> the someone asked me to do it, because the locks were horribly frozen on the car to the point where a window had to be broken..
2008-03-18 13:16 < ShakespeareFan00> qaunticle: Despite risking being shot for looting?
2008-03-18 13:16 < quanticle> Leslie_S: That must have sucked. How did you clean up the glass...
2008-03-18 13:16 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Of course. I must eat, after all.
2008-03-18 13:16 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 nobody will shoot you if you have the bigger gun.
2008-03-18 13:16 < Leslie_S> quanticle i didnt. she did.
2008-03-18 13:16 < Demi> we had this discussion about what the law says and what you need to do... jaywalking is illegal but if there is a car accident i will certainly step into the street to assist or direct traffic around it.
2008-03-18 13:16 < Ceiling_Cat> Anyone here familiar with NMAP?
2008-03-18 13:16 < Demi> Ceiling_Cat - somewhat
2008-03-18 13:16 < Fabexplosive> hello
2008-03-18 13:16 < Leslie_S> quanticle to be honest, the glass from breaking a car window other than the windshield is essentially inert..
2008-03-18 13:16 < Ceiling_Cat> 70.105.244.192
2008-03-18 13:16 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Somewhat familiar.
2008-03-18 13:16 < Ceiling_Cat> Is that an anonyzmizer?
2008-03-18 13:16 < Demi> oh, i'm not going to scan an IP, ceil420
2008-03-18 13:16 < Demi> er Ceiling_Cat
2008-03-18 13:17 < Leslie_S> quanticle and normally the glass from a windshield wont come apart.
2008-03-18 13:17 < Ceiling_Cat> I tried port scanning it, but got no replies
2008-03-18 13:17 < ShakespeareFan00> Leslie_S: Depends on the make of car
2008-03-18 13:17 < Demi> Ceiling_Cat - did you try with -T?
2008-03-18 13:17 < NotASpy> Ceiling_Cat: did you use the -P0 option ?
2008-03-18 13:17 < Ceiling_Cat> I tried P0
2008-03-18 13:17 < quanticle> Leslie_S: Yeah, but it breaks into little pieces and goes everywhere...
2008-03-18 13:17 < Ceiling_Cat> still none
2008-03-18 13:17 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 all cars in america have the same exact glass.
2008-03-18 13:17 < ShakespeareFan00> Most modern glass on cars is Triplex type isn't it?
2008-03-18 13:17 < Ceiling_Cat> what is -T?
2008-03-18 13:17 < Demi> er, maybe it's -s T
2008-03-18 13:17 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: You have root, right?
2008-03-18 13:17 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 its just tempered glass. the windshield is not tempered, but is laminated with plastic.
2008-03-18 13:18 < Leslie_S> quanticle but the pieces are inert and dont really go that far.
2008-03-18 13:18 < ShakespeareFan00> I think UK cars uses a type of glass that doesn't produce sharp pieces
2008-03-18 13:18 < Demi> -sT i mean, tcp socket opens
2008-03-18 13:18 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 thats tempered glass.
2008-03-18 13:18 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Yeah. That's tempered glass.
2008-03-18 13:18 < ShakespeareFan00> I.e it disnitgrates rather than shaterring wholesale
2008-03-18 13:18 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 it breaks into little rounded cubes.
2008-03-18 13:18 < ShakespeareFan00> I wish it was used for more things...
2008-03-18 13:18 < Leslie_S> ALL cars in america for many, many years have it.
2008-03-18 13:18 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 however, tempered glass has a major flaw.
2008-03-18 13:18 < NotASpy> tempered glass for the side windows, laminated glass for the windscreen, normally.
2008-03-18 13:18 < ShakespeareFan00> I had a really nasty time cleaning up a a damged greenhouse
2008-03-18 13:19 < ShakespeareFan00> LeslieS: Which is?
2008-03-18 13:19 < NotASpy> ShakespeareFan00: ah you know what they say about casting stones in glasshouses, don't you...
2008-03-18 13:19 < ShakespeareFan00> Yeah
2008-03-18 13:19 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 If like, you used it on a windshield in a car, and you got a stone chip in that windshield...it would shatter the entire windshield.
2008-03-18 13:19 < ShakespeareFan00> OK
2008-03-18 13:19 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 they actually used to use tempered glass for windshields. :P
2008-03-18 13:20 < Leslie_S> but its also incredibly strong, so it takes a lot more to do any damage to it whatsoever. but when you do, it just goes.
2008-03-18 13:20 < ShakespeareFan00> Which is why in cop shows the windscreen disintegrates when the crooks firs at it?
2008-03-18 13:20 < Leslie_S> ShakespeareFan00 uh, this was in like ...the 30s.
2008-03-18 13:20 < ShakespeareFan00> OK
2008-03-18 13:20 < ShakespeareFan00> Sorry
2008-03-18 13:21 < Leslie_S> in real life it would just make a small hole in the windshield, with shattered glass on the border, but the shattered glass wont detach, because its laminated.
2008-03-18 13:21 < quanticle> Is it just me, or does anyone else think that modern notions of quality, when it comes to visual art are completely screwed up?
2008-03-18 13:21 * quanticle just got a book on Piet Mondrian
2008-03-18 13:21 * quanticle looks at paintings that are, essentially, graph paper.
2008-03-18 13:21 < Leslie_S> you know whats weird though, is one time i was in a crash where the entire windshield was as shattered as possible (it looked like broken tempered glass!), and when the car was righted, the windshield hung down to the steering wheel
2008-03-18 13:21 < Leslie_S> heheh
2008-03-18 13:22 < Leslie_S> the car was initially upside down after the crash..
2008-03-18 13:22 < Leslie_S> anyway, ive gotta go. bye.
2008-03-18 13:23 < quanticle> Bye Leslie_S
2008-03-18 13:24 < Demi> quanticle - when I went to the Tate Modern, one of the works there was a smallish canvas (maybe 18" x 25") painted gray
2008-03-18 13:24 < quanticle> Demi: I say a similar painting at the Minneapolis Institute of Art. It too was a smallish canvas painted with a vaguely plum color, titled "Flesh".
2008-03-18 13:25 < bumm13> how lame
2008-03-18 13:25 * quanticle wanted to beat the artist until his skin was that color
2008-03-18 13:26 < Demi> have you seen the documentary "My Kid Could Paint That!"
2008-03-18 13:26 < Demi> ?
2008-03-18 13:26 < Demi> (i haven't, but it's on my list)
2008-03-18 13:26 < quanticle> No. I haven't either.
2008-03-18 13:26 < quanticle> I want to now, though.
2008-03-18 13:27 * quanticle will be back in a bit
2008-03-18 13:36 * quanticle|away back
2008-03-18 13:42 < Juliancolton> Oh, come on. Level 5 :(
2008-03-18 13:47 < quanticle> Juliancolton: Which game?
2008-03-18 13:47 < Juliancolton> The vandalism level
2008-03-18 13:47 < Juliancolton> Recent changes doesn't have a single IP vandalism edit to revert
2008-03-18 13:55 < Ceiling_Cat> MOAR KATZ!
2008-03-18 13:57 < ThePolecat> the "my kid could paint that" line is void
2008-03-18 13:57 < ThePolecat> it should be "my kid could paint that but it wouldn't know what it is"
2008-03-18 13:58 < ThePolecat> pure anti-intellectual populism.
2008-03-18 14:00 < Demi> well, the question is, what distinguishes a gray panel i paint with the intention of having a gray panel, and the same size panel painted the same shade of gray by an "artist" and hung in a gallery?
2008-03-18 14:00 < Demi> is intention a necessary component of art? the context of an art gallery and art marketing and criticism?
2008-03-18 14:00 < bumm13> number of midochlorians that the painter has
2008-03-18 14:01 < Demi> heh
2008-03-18 14:01 < ideogram> art was always considered a conversation between the artist and the audience
2008-03-18 14:01 < Demi> if a piece of art and a piece of non-art are indistinguishable on the basis of their inherent characteristics, then how do you classify it?
2008-03-18 14:01 < ideogram> perhaps modern art tips the balance away from the intention of the artist towards the interpretation of the audience too far
2008-03-18 14:02 < Lucifer_Cat> how do i get a cloak, again?
2008-03-18 14:02 < ThePolecat> back
2008-03-18 14:02 < Lucifer_Cat> i heard requesting it thru wiki has a lag these days
2008-03-18 14:03 < Lucifer_Cat> hey ThePolecat
2008-03-18 14:03 < ThePolecat> I would say novelty is a big part of it.
2008-03-18 14:03 < Lucifer_Cat> of your nick?
2008-03-18 14:03 < ThePolecat> No, of art worthy to be hung in museums.
2008-03-18 14:03 < ideogram> art doesn't have a notion of quality anymore, so they fall back on novelty
2008-03-18 14:04 < ThePolecat> and modern art is in the eye of the beer holder and nowhere else
2008-03-18 14:04 < ThePolecat> I detest the word "quality" in connection to art.
2008-03-18 14:04 < Ceiling_Cat> MOAR KATZ!
2008-03-18 14:04 < Demi> sister wendy tells me that this is the distinguishing feature between craft and art
2008-03-18 14:04 < Demi> (i.e. that art doesn't get better)
2008-03-18 14:04 < Lucifer_Cat> Ceiling_Cat: how do i get a cloak quick?
2008-03-18 14:05 < ThePolecat> a piece of art is a piece of art, not an office chair.
2008-03-18 14:05 < Lucifer_Cat> not that im in drastic need of it...
2008-03-18 14:05 < ThePolecat> (unless part of an installation)
2008-03-18 14:05 < ThePolecat> :-D
2008-03-18 14:06 < Demi> yes, but chairs can be art
2008-03-18 14:06 < Demi> and can certainly use it
2008-03-18 14:06 < ThePolecat> that's what I meant.
2008-03-18 14:06 < Demi> okay
2008-03-18 14:06 < Demi> i thought you were just insulting my chair
2008-03-18 14:06 < ideogram> if I pick up a piece of driftwood and hang it in a museum is it art?
2008-03-18 14:06 < ThePolecat> I think to assign "quality" to a work of art is a typical notion of religious capitalism.
2008-03-18 14:06 < ideogram> religious capitalism?
2008-03-18 14:07 < ideogram> that's a new one
2008-03-18 14:07 < ThePolecat> yea, capitalism as a religion
2008-03-18 14:07 < ThePolecat> the measurability of everything
2008-03-18 14:07 < ThePolecat> It can be if you open new ways of looking at the piece of driftwood
2008-03-18 14:07 < ThePolecat> as signifying more
2008-03-18 14:07 < gwern> wonder if @messages only works in priv mesg
2008-03-18 14:07 < gwern> @messages
2008-03-18 14:07 < ideogram> hey, I just picked it up and sold it to a museum for a boatload of cash
2008-03-18 14:08 < gwern> er. mischan
2008-03-18 14:08 < gwern> #wikipedia has no neat bots :(
2008-03-18 14:08 < Demi> oh, i like this "counsel of perfection" expression
2008-03-18 14:08 < ideogram> you know about that guy who comes up with crazy ideas and has craftsmen build them for him?
2008-03-18 14:08 < ThePolecat> artists usually aren't artists to teleologically make as much money as possibly
2008-03-18 14:08 < ideogram> made something with two basketballs half embedded in acrylic once
2008-03-18 14:08 < ideogram> all the collectors love him
2008-03-18 14:09 < ThePolecat> y = e
2008-03-18 14:09 < ThePolecat> there
2008-03-18 14:09 < Lucifer_Cat> no help :\
2008-03-18 14:09 < ideogram> does art depend on the motivations of the artist?
2008-03-18 14:10 < ideogram> that piece of driftwood, does its status as art depend on my state of mind when I picked it up?
2008-03-18 14:10 < ThePolecat> I think it's a sign of our times to ask "cui bono?" each time a piece of art comes along. Marxism and capitalism are very similar in that repect.
2008-03-18 14:10 < ThePolecat> *s
2008-03-18 14:10 < ideogram> is it unacceptable to sell art? to try to make a living as an artist?
2008-03-18 14:10 < ThePolecat> no, it depends on whether its presentation can give the viewer something larger to reflect.
2008-03-18 14:10 < ThePolecat> of course not
2008-03-18 14:11 < ThePolecat> just saying that most people don't do it for the sake of maximizing profit
2008-03-18 14:11 < ideogram> if I make millions of dollars does it matter to me whether the viewer sees it as art?
2008-03-18 14:11 < ThePolecat> If you're an artist, perhaps.
2008-03-18 14:11 < ideogram> does it matter to you if I am an artist?
2008-03-18 14:11 < ThePolecat> I think it's rather difficult to find the motivation to be meaningful
2008-03-18 14:11 < ThePolecat> if all you care about is selling
2008-03-18 14:11 < ideogram> where does meaning in art come from, the artist or the viewer?
2008-03-18 14:12 < ThePolecat> excellent question
2008-03-18 14:12 < ThePolecat> and if "viewer", what kind of viewer
2008-03-18 14:12 < ideogram> in modern art the balance seems to be shifting away from the artist
2008-03-18 14:12 < ideogram> viewer, audience, whatever
2008-03-18 14:13 < ThePolecat> ya, but "the open, interested, curious viewer" or "the viewer who wants to look at pretty things after work"
2008-03-18 14:13 * Ceiling_Cat facehuggles ideogram
2008-03-18 14:13 < ideogram> get away from me you alien invader
2008-03-18 14:14 < ThePolecat> I do think it's the basic rule of modern art that art only exists in the mind of the onlooker
2008-03-18 14:14 < ideogram> now the quality of art depends on the mindset of the viewer?
2008-03-18 14:14 * Ceiling_Cat likes it when they squirm
2008-03-18 14:14 < ThePolecat> I personally never use the word "quality" in reference to art
2008-03-18 14:14 < Ceiling_Cat> see also: http://surreality.info/up/Facehugger.jpg
2008-03-18 14:14 < ideogram> are some people more qualified to define art than others?
2008-03-18 14:14 < ThePolecat> so I'm not familiar with it
2008-03-18 14:14 < ThePolecat> Perhaps
2008-03-18 14:14 < Messedrocker> ideogram, i am the most qualified of everyone to define art
2008-03-18 14:14 < ThePolecat> Art is not populist, and all attempts to make it so have been catastrophic.
2008-03-18 14:15 < ideogram> if someone makes something and I am willing to buy it and i am satisfied with my purchase, who are you to say it is not art?
2008-03-18 14:15 < ThePolecat> (usually in the framework of authoritarian regimes)
2008-03-18 14:15 < ideogram> if it speaks to me in a language I understand who are you to pass judgement on that language?
2008-03-18 14:15 < ThePolecat> The sellability has no bearing on its status as art.
2008-03-18 14:15 < ThePolecat> It can only be more or less profound
2008-03-18 14:15 < ideogram> in a capitalist society I express my approval of an object by buying it.
2008-03-18 14:16 < ThePolecat> I would pass judgment on the ideas it represents and its way of displaying those.
2008-03-18 14:16 < ideogram> regardless of how that approval is measured, if I find a piece of art speaks to me, who are you to say I am wrong?
2008-03-18 14:16 < ThePolecat> Every work of art must always be open to critique
2008-03-18 14:16 < ThePolecat> I wouldn't.
2008-03-18 14:16 < ideogram> do your values define what art is more than mine?
2008-03-18 14:16 < ThePolecat> No.
2008-03-18 14:17 < ideogram> what if I am a beer-swilling redneck fond of velvet elvis-paintings?
2008-03-18 14:17 < ThePolecat> Especially since I don't have as good a background in art as many people I know
2008-03-18 14:17 < ThePolecat> Hah!
2008-03-18 14:17 < ThePolecat> the kitsch debate
2008-03-18 14:17 < ThePolecat> "is kitsch worse art"
2008-03-18 14:17 < ThePolecat> Kitsch is worse art in the sense that its ideas are not profound.
2008-03-18 14:17 < ThePolecat> and often enough fake
2008-03-18 14:17 < ideogram> who defines what is profound?
2008-03-18 14:18 < ThePolecat> there are pretty good criteria for that, set up by dead white men
2008-03-18 14:18 < Messedrocker> i define and mendel is profound
2008-03-18 14:18 < ideogram> I reject the authority of dead white men
2008-03-18 14:19 < ideogram> I may not be profound, but I know what I like
2008-03-18 14:19 < ThePolecat> Yes, but there is still profundity those things won't reach.
2008-03-18 14:19 < ideogram> why do I care about what you consider profound?
2008-03-18 14:20 < ThePolecat> because non-profound things do not get to the true roots of the questions philosophy asks.
2008-03-18 14:20 < ideogram> philosophy is a crock
2008-03-18 14:20 < ideogram> philosophy is clever marketing
2008-03-18 14:20 < ideogram> what you believe is truth is something that was sold to you
2008-03-18 14:20 < ThePolecat> I refuse to talk to you this way.
2008-03-18 14:21 < ThePolecat> later.
2008-03-18 14:21 < ThePolecat> Just this much: you just set a month-best for question-begging
2008-03-18 14:21 < ideogram> I have no idea what you are trying to say.
2008-03-18 14:22 < harlan> so can somebody here tell me how I should add some new pages to the opensource license list?
2008-03-18 14:28 < Mike_H> "Toccara, have some class!"
2008-03-18 14:28 < Mike_H> "KISS! MY! ASS!"
2008-03-18 14:28 < quanticle> ThePolecat: But how is a monocolor painting titled "Flesh" more profound than dime-store kitsch?
2008-03-18 14:30 < quanticle> ideogram: By your logic, if I buy a Yugo, and am satisfied with it, you have no right to say "Yugos suck!" in my presence.
2008-03-18 14:30 < ideogram> not quite
2008-03-18 14:30 < ideogram> I can say it, but you don't have to listen
2008-03-18 14:30 < ideogram> I can't annul your purchase or make you unhappy
2008-03-18 14:31 < ideogram> I can set up little fantasies in my mind that I am better than you, but that doesn't have to have any effect on your life
2008-03-18 14:31 < quanticle> ideogram: That is true. But you can state your opinion of said purchase, and critique my tastes...
2008-03-18 14:31 < ideogram> that may be important to me, or even some of my friends, but it doesn't have to be important to you
2008-03-18 14:32 < ideogram> maybe you are my friend, and maybe my opinion is important to you, but that is different
2008-03-18 14:32 < ideogram> I don't let strangers tell me what to like until they earn my respect
2008-03-18 14:32 < NotASpy> quanticle: there's no way you would be satisfied if you bought a Yugo though. Do they still make cars ?
2008-03-18 14:32 < quanticle> ideogram: True enough. However, that runs into problems when the institution doing the purchasing is not a private individual, but an art museum or some other collective facility.
2008-03-18 14:33 < Lucifer_Cat> ideogram: people tend to go to lengths to prove others that they are better and make others life miserable
2008-03-18 14:33 < ideogram> well now, curators of art museums like to say they are serving higher ideals, but museums have goals for attendance and revenue all the same
2008-03-18 14:33 < ideogram> as a social animal Man engages in all kinds of dominance behavior
2008-03-18 14:41 < Lucifer_Cat> Asociación De Idiotas Dispuestos A Superarse
2008-03-18 14:42 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: ADIDAS?
2008-03-18 14:42 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: They haven't been sued by the shoe company?
2008-03-18 14:42 < Lucifer_Cat> yup
2008-03-18 14:42 < Lucifer_Cat> thats a backronym for adidas
2008-03-18 14:43 < quanticle> Ah, yeah. I got that shortly after I saw it...
2008-03-18 14:43 * quanticle sometimes lets his hands run ahead of his brain.
2008-03-18 14:45 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: not a good thing in some situations
2008-03-18 14:45 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: As an avid command line user, it is especially unwise for me.
2008-03-18 14:46 < Lucifer_Cat> thats even worse!
2008-03-18 14:46 < bumm13> $ _
2008-03-18 14:46 < Lucifer_Cat> i had this project partner on the linux device drivers project...
2008-03-18 14:46 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: note: sudo rm -rf *foo != sudo rm -rf * foo
2008-03-18 14:47 < Lucifer_Cat> we had to reboot/rebuild the kernel a LOT just cuz his fingers moved - erratically sometimes - faster than we could see or think.
2008-03-18 14:47 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: From what you say, it seems that his fingers moved faster than he could see or think as well.
2008-03-18 14:48 < Lucifer_Cat> we = everyone on the team
2008-03-18 14:48 < Lucifer_Cat> he'd fuck it up even if someone was intently staring at the screen ready to scream
2008-03-18 14:49 < Supaplex> apparently <pre> works a little different than plain html. is there anyway to indicate my html inside pre should not be escaped?
2008-03-18 14:49 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: That's your problem them. You only had people ready to scream, not people actually screaming...
2008-03-18 14:49 < quanticle> ;)
2008-03-18 14:49 < Lucifer_Cat> after certain crash / reboots we decided to go for broke and just go on ahead and create a record for crashing the kernel the max number of times in a 24 hr period
2008-03-18 14:50 < Lucifer_Cat> lol they screamed, but too late. by that time others were screaming in frustration as well. :\
2008-03-18 14:56 < MessedRawker> Ceiling_Cat, watch these two
2008-03-18 14:56 < MessedRawker> http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s273/yeti-75/111.jpg
2008-03-18 14:56 < bumm13> ok, anyone here know how Amidar is an "idiosyncratic" arcade game?
2008-03-18 14:57 < Lucifer_Cat> anyone here from alabama?
2008-03-18 14:58 * quanticle out
2008-03-18 14:58 * bumm13 didn't think so
2008-03-18 15:00 < Supaplex> to restate, what additional markup do I need for <pre> to quote html as-is w/o escaping it? I have some large sections of shell transcripts I want to highlight some parts in. All the workarounds I have are troublesome.
2008-03-18 15:03 * bumm13 can't think of any offhand
2008-03-18 15:04 < The359> lol
2008-03-18 15:04 < The359> whoops
2008-03-18 15:04 < The359> I-95 in Philly has been closed
2008-03-18 15:04 < Lucifer_Cat> why
2008-03-18 15:04 < The359> Because inspectors found gigantic cracks in the support beams
2008-03-18 15:04 < The359> I-95 is a raised highway through the city
2008-03-18 15:06 < ideogram> Supaplex: you mean you want <pre> <blink>ANNOUNCEMENT</blink> </pre> not to eat the tags?
2008-03-18 15:06 < ideogram> that's not possible
2008-03-18 15:07 < Supaplex> more like <pre> <b style="color:red;">0</b> bytes free. <pre>
2008-03-18 15:07 < Supaplex> but yeah.
2008-03-18 15:07 < Supaplex> I mean </pre> at the end, of course.
2008-03-18 15:07 < The359> The Pennsylvania Department of Transportation has been monitoring the crack, 2 inches wide and several feet long, since October, but its latest inspection showed it had grown and become potentially dangerous. The inspection Monday night found that the crack had grown and the column was now in a perilous position.
2008-03-18 15:08 < Villa> who's growing crack?
2008-03-18 15:08 < Supaplex> uncle sam
2008-03-18 15:08 < The359> crack in a support column of I-95 in Philadelphia
2008-03-18 15:10 * The359 is surprised no one has edited the [[Interstate 95 in Pennsylvania]] article
2008-03-18 15:11 < ideogram> {{sofixit}}
2008-03-18 15:11 < Supaplex> I guess the preformated space is my new workaround.
2008-03-18 15:20 < bumm13> "ATLANTA - Delta Air Lines, faced with a weak economy, dimmer hopes of a combination with Northwest Airlines and record fuel prices that are eating up profits, said Tuesday it will offer voluntary severance payouts to roughly 30,000 employees -- more than half its work force -- and cut U.S. capacity by an extra 5 percent."
2008-03-18 15:20 < bumm13> (oops, that was longer that I thought)
2008-03-18 15:21 < The359> Is anyone working on alternative fuels for jets?
2008-03-18 15:21 < Cyrius> The359: Virgin
2008-03-18 15:21 < The359> what are they using?
2008-03-18 15:22 * Mike_H NP: Mariah Carey - Fantasy (1995)
2008-03-18 15:22 < Cyrius> they did a promo flight running on "a biofuel composed of babassu oil and coconut oil"
2008-03-18 15:23 < bumm13> hiya Mike
2008-03-18 15:23 < The359> is it cheaper or more expensive than Jet A?
2008-03-18 15:23 < bumm13> interesting spam title: "Donnell -- thats a hot profile"
2008-03-18 15:24 < Cyrius> article does not say cost
2008-03-18 15:25 < The359> you'd think alternative fuels in jets would help take a big chunk out of oil dependency
2008-03-18 15:25 < Mike_H> hi bumm13
2008-03-18 15:25 < The359> but everybody just wants to bitch about cars
2008-03-18 15:25 < Mike_H> oh, yay, my favorite Mariah song
2008-03-18 15:25 < tonyb486> probobaly quite a bit more expensive because its uncommon
2008-03-18 15:25 * Mike_H NP: Mariah Carey feat. Boyz II Men - One Sweet Day (1995)
2008-03-18 15:25 < gwern> 'In spite of all this, it turns out that for most people in most crashes there is a surprisingly happy ending. Take, for instance, crashes that result in “total hull loss,” which means that the crash damages the airplane beyond economic repair. Of the 446 DC-10s ever delivered, 27 of them were involved in crashes that led to “total hull loss.” Overall in these crashes, 69 percent of all passengers and crew members survived. If ...
2008-03-18 15:25 < gwern> ... you throw out the three worst crashes, the survival rate is nearly 90 percent! '
2008-03-18 15:25 < Cyrius> nobody talks about plastics
2008-03-18 15:26 < Huntster> toolserver down?
2008-03-18 15:26 * bumm13 NP: Sammy Hagar - Mas Tequila (1999)
2008-03-18 15:26 < Cyrius> probably because a lot of people have no idea what plastics are made from
2008-03-18 15:26 < Mike_H> bumm13: I think it still holds the record
2008-03-18 15:26 < Mike_H> of total weeks at #1
2008-03-18 15:26 < bumm13> ah
2008-03-18 15:26 < Mike_H> "One Sweet Day," that is
2008-03-18 15:26 < bumm13> I've never been too interested in her music
2008-03-18 15:26 < Mike_H> It holds the record for the longest run at number one on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100 (16 weeks total), and is one of the biggest hits of both Carey's and Boyz II Men's careers.
2008-03-18 15:27 < bumm13> heh, Boyz II Men
2008-03-18 15:27 < cimon> The funny thing about aeroplanes is that though arguably they contribute to greenhouse gasses, they might be one of the best buffers we have against a "runaway greenhouse-effect" (because of contrails see)
2008-03-18 15:28 < Mike_H> bumm13: it was #1 from the first week of December 1995
2008-03-18 15:28 < Mike_H> to the third week in March, 1996.
2008-03-18 15:28 < bumm13> hmm
2008-03-18 15:29 < Mike_H> bumm13: chick singers had the preceding and succeeding #1s
2008-03-18 15:29 < ThePolecat> Mariah Carey = vocal masturbation
2008-03-18 15:30 < Mike_H> the preceding one is Exhale (Shoop Shoop) by Whitney
2008-03-18 15:30 < Mike_H> and then the succeeding one was Because You Loved Me
2008-03-18 15:30 < Mike_H> by Celine.
2008-03-18 15:30 < ThePolecat> I remember now why I was a depressed child.
2008-03-18 15:31 < Mike_H> too much Celine?
2008-03-18 15:31 < ggreer> gwern: ah, but what are the odds of surviving if the plane has a problem in the air?
2008-03-18 15:31 < ThePolecat> too much bad music everywhere
2008-03-18 15:31 < ggreer> I bet a lot of those total hull losses happened on the ground
2008-03-18 15:31 < gwern> 'The worst crashes are those when you are climbing or cruising (14 percent of crashes, but 37 percent of fatalities).'
2008-03-18 15:31 < gwern> http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/what-are-the-odds-you-survive-an-airplane-crash/
2008-03-18 15:32 * ThePolecat points out that the biggest chance is never getting in an airplane crash
2008-03-18 15:32 < ggreer> "Technically speaking, don’t all plane crashes occur at landing? Just not the planned one."
2008-03-18 15:32 < ggreer> *rim shot*
2008-03-18 15:32 < ThePolecat> Not if you explode mid-air
2008-03-18 15:33 < ggreer> can planes explode in mid-air? even if a turbine grenades it's not going to take out the entire plane
2008-03-18 15:33 < ggreer> I guess I missile would do it
2008-03-18 15:33 < The359> TWA 800 did
2008-03-18 15:33 < The359> Spark in the fuel cells
2008-03-18 15:34 < ggreer> fuel cells also filled with oxygen in the right mixture?
2008-03-18 15:34 < The359> I don't know, but Jet A is highly flammable
2008-03-18 15:35 < Cyrius> if you allow the right air-vapor mix in the tanks and then add a spark
2008-03-18 15:35 < The359> the plane could also simply break apart in air
2008-03-18 15:35 < ggreer> yeah, so is gasoline. but it has to be within a certain balance of fuel/oxygen ratios
2008-03-18 15:35 < Cyrius> but it's usually too rich to burn
2008-03-18 15:35 < Lucifer_Cat> ggreer: some 10 years ago couple of planes collided mid air in delhi
2008-03-18 15:35 < ggreer> oh, mid air collision
2008-03-18 15:35 < ggreer> yeah, that would definitely cause a break-up
2008-03-18 15:36 < Lucifer_Cat> no survivors iirc
2008-03-18 15:36 < ggreer> well duh
2008-03-18 15:36 < ThePolecat> there are some pretty scary possible structure failures, true.
2008-03-18 15:36 < The359> TWA 800 apparently failed when the fuel tanks broke
2008-03-18 15:37 < The359> Allowing air in
2008-03-18 15:37 < ggreer> that would make sense
2008-03-18 15:37 < The359> The destruction sequence started with a low-order explosion originating within the center fuel tank. The explosion inside the center fuel tank caused the spanwise beam, which was the front of the tank, to fail, rotating it downward and forward, where it struck the front spar (one of two major structural components carrying lift loads across the span of the wing)
2008-03-18 15:37 < The359> hmm, actually, the air was only let in after that initial explosion
2008-03-18 15:38 < The359> so it appears there's enough oxygen in the fuel tank to ignite
2008-03-18 15:39 < ggreer> what are the odds of surviving a car crash?
2008-03-18 15:39 < ggreer> or a motorcycle crash?
2008-03-18 15:39 < The359> In an attempt to determine what ignited the flammable fuel/air vapor in the CWT and caused the explosion, the investigation evaluated numerous potential ignition sources. All but one were considered "very unlikely", while one was considered "likely"
2008-03-18 15:40 < Lucifer_Cat> which was...?
2008-03-18 15:40 < bumm13> an acquaintance of my dad died while riding his motorcycle on CA 4 in wet weather
2008-03-18 15:41 < ggreer> bumm13: that is because fun things are always dangerous
2008-03-18 15:41 < bumm13> well, he also wasn't wearing a helmet
2008-03-18 15:41 < ggreer> isn't there a law that says you have to wear a helmet?
2008-03-18 15:41 < bumm13> my dad said he was the "live hard" type, so....
2008-03-18 15:41 < The359> Wiring on a sensor within the fuel tank, Lucifer_Cat
2008-03-18 15:41 < bumm13> yep
2008-03-18 15:41 < bumm13> but death caught him first
2008-03-18 15:42 < The359> Fuel quantity indication system. The FAA and airplane manufacturers had assumed that a flammable fuel/air mixture would exist at all times in fuel tanks; consequently airplane designers attempted to eliminate all possible sources of ignition in the fuel tanks. The primary means of ensuring this is to keep voltages and currents being used by the fuel quantity indication system very small, and to protect all devices from intrusion
2008-03-18 15:42 * The359 probably got cut off
2008-03-18 15:42 < ggreer> from intrusio
2008-03-18 15:42 < mavhc> from intrusion...
2008-03-18 15:42 < The359> intrusion of vapor.
2008-03-18 15:42 < The359> In the case of the 747-100 series, the only wiring located inside the CWT was wiring associated with the Fuel Quantity Indication System (FQIS).
2008-03-18 15:42 < The359> so yes ggreer, a plane can explode in mid air
2008-03-18 15:43 < The359> because there is enough oxygen in the fuel tank
2008-03-18 15:43 < mavhc> high voltage is why apollo 13 blew up too
2008-03-18 15:44 < cimon> bumm13, The funny thing, in my opinion, is that there are those that wear helmets, and those who don't. But there are very few people who either wear a helmet or don't, depending on the bussiness of the road, the road state of repair and or weather conditions...
2008-03-18 15:44 * ThePolecat reads the end of that absurd art debate
2008-03-18 15:44 < ggreer> cimon: that's because you either realize the risk or you don't
2008-03-18 15:44 < cimon> To my mind, on a good sunny day, on a well maintained road that wasn't that heavily trafficked...
2008-03-18 15:44 < ThePolecat> heh, the end was that art critique is mean and just not right after all.
2008-03-18 15:44 < ggreer> cimon: ah, but on a nice day you're going to ride harder
2008-03-18 15:44 < ThePolecat> Good to know.
2008-03-18 15:45 * ThePolecat will never hurt anyone's feeling again
2008-03-18 15:45 < The359> Riding without a helmet any day = dumb
2008-03-18 15:45 < cimon> ggreer, good point
2008-03-18 15:45 < ggreer> the only time I've seen wrecked motorcycles is on sunny week-ends on highway 35
2008-03-18 15:45 < ideogram> Well, to state the obvious, I don't try to avoid hurting people's feelings. I am sorry if you dislike that.
2008-03-18 15:45 < ggreer> also all of them have been 600cc or 1000cc race replicas
2008-03-18 15:46 < ThePolecat> oh hello.
2008-03-18 15:46 < mavhc> riding a bicycle or a motorbike?
2008-03-18 15:46 < ThePolecat> You didn't hurt mine, it's fine.
2008-03-18 15:46 < cimon> The359: there is an amount of risk involved in the best of conditions, but there is an experiential component too, that some call "fun".
2008-03-18 15:46 < ideogram> I am an iconoclast. It's what I do.
2008-03-18 15:46 < The359> You can have fun with a helmet
2008-03-18 15:46 < ThePolecat> heh...
2008-03-18 15:46 < ggreer> without a helmet on I can barely see due to wind
2008-03-18 15:46 < mavhc> The359: lies, you can't have fun unless you're drunk and attempting to kill yourself
2008-03-18 15:46 < The359> Without a helmet you get pelted by stuff
2008-03-18 15:47 < The359> you can still die with a helmet on, mavhc ;)
2008-03-18 15:47 < cimon> The359, I just erased a very naughty comment...
2008-03-18 15:47 < ggreer> I wear all my gear all the time. boots, pants, jacket, helmet, gloves
2008-03-18 15:47 < ThePolecat> self-stylings are rarely advisable.
2008-03-18 15:47 < mavhc> The: They died with their helmets on?
2008-03-18 15:47 < The359> most riders who get thrown off their bike tend to land on their chin
2008-03-18 15:48 < ggreer> only cops wear 3/4ths helmets
2008-03-18 15:48 < cimon> The359, something to do with the front wheel...
2008-03-18 15:48 < ggreer> because they have those mics
2008-03-18 15:48 < mavhc> can't they afford smaller mics?
2008-03-18 15:48 < ggreer> mavhc: I think they're going for the T-1000 look
2008-03-18 15:49 < ggreer> and people with 1/2 helmets don't care about safety
2008-03-18 15:49 < The359> I think the cops wear half helmets because if they wore full ones
2008-03-18 15:49 < The359> They'd have to take them off all the time to talk
2008-03-18 15:49 < ggreer> yeah, that too
2008-03-18 15:50 < The359> although they make full helmets now where the whole front end lifts up
2008-03-18 15:50 < ggreer> and it's bad form to hide your face as a cop
2008-03-18 15:50 < The359> instead of just the visor
2008-03-18 15:50 < ggreer> those are heavy as hell though
2008-03-18 15:52 < The359> when my dad goes to the post office to pick up his business mail
2008-03-18 15:52 < The359> He wears his full face helmet in instead of taking it off
2008-03-18 15:52 < ggreer> heh
2008-03-18 15:52 < The359> because they know its him and its a waste of time to take it off
2008-03-18 15:57 < ggreer> The359: but what if it's a bank robber with the exact same bike?!
2008-03-18 15:57 < The359> Post office
2008-03-18 15:57 < ggreer> a post office robber then
2008-03-18 15:57 < ggreer> stealing stamps
2008-03-18 15:57 < ShakespeareFan00> Bank robbers also do Post Office
2008-03-18 15:58 < ggreer> I was watching the x files last night. they had one amazing episode where a postal worker was going crazy
2008-03-18 15:58 < ggreer> and any electronic display he looked at kept telling him to kill his co-workers
2008-03-18 15:59 < bumm13> haha
2008-03-18 16:08 < ShakespeareFan00> ggreer: You haventt noticed the subliminal " DONATE" blinkers on the enwiki yet then ?
2008-03-18 16:08 < ShakespeareFan00> ;)
2008-03-18 16:08 < Cyrius> fnord
2008-03-18 16:22 * ThePolecat feels an inexplicable rush of anxiety
2008-03-18 16:22 * Mike_H cuddles ThePolecat
2008-03-18 16:22 < ThePolecat> :-D
2008-03-18 16:22 < Mike_H> :D
2008-03-18 16:23 * ThePolecat kills the anxiety with meaningless, mind-numbing activity
2008-03-18 16:24 < zocky> anybody know any linux editor (in terminal) in which you can use shift+arrow keys to select and ctrl-c and ctrl-v to copy and paste?
2008-03-18 16:24 < Mike_H> zocky: Have you seen the Ken Lee video yet?
2008-03-18 16:24 < zocky> Mike_H, yeah :)
2008-03-18 16:24 < Mike_H> that's hilarious
2008-03-18 16:24 < zocky> Mike_H, brilliant
2008-03-18 16:24 < Mike_H> "What language was that?"
2008-03-18 16:24 < Mike_H> "...English"
2008-03-18 16:24 < zocky> it takes quite a personality to go on a talent show on tv and not even try to get the correct lyrics for the song you're singing
2008-03-18 16:25 < Mike_H> zocky: Well, poor girl, clearly she couldn't speak any English
2008-03-18 16:26 < zocky> Mike_H, I can't speak any finnish, but if I wanted to sing a finnish song on TV, i'd still try to get the correct lyrics, even if I then pronounced them badly
2008-03-18 16:26 * ThePolecat ist ein Berliner
2008-03-18 16:26 < ThePolecat> to be vaguely on-topic
2008-03-18 16:26 < Mike_H> zocky: Well, it's a good thing that nobody understands Finnish
2008-03-18 16:26 < Mike_H> cimon: sorry, they don't
2008-03-18 16:27 < Mike_H> All I know about it is that they love their vowels
2008-03-18 16:27 < Mike_H> and almost every person's last name ends in nen
2008-03-18 16:27 * ThePolecat reads the Kamelopedia article on "Bielefeld denial"
2008-03-18 16:27 < Rayhou> Hey, I'm a Finn :D
2008-03-18 16:27 < Mike_H> Rayhou: Does your last name end in -nen? :D
2008-03-18 16:28 < Rayhou> no, my last name is of Swedish origin (No way I'm a Swede though!)
2008-03-18 16:28 < cimon> Mike_H, well, it is the same way with poles, their names are all -ski
2008-03-18 16:28 < cimon> and swedes are all -son
2008-03-18 16:28 < Mike_H> cimon: And those Russians end them all in -ov
2008-03-18 16:28 < ThePolecat> Svensson-inen
2008-03-18 16:28 < cimon> or -ova
2008-03-18 16:29 < MooingLemur> more like -sson
2008-03-18 16:29 < zocky> damn, google sucks at searching
2008-03-18 16:29 < ThePolecat> Lindfors-inen
2008-03-18 16:29 < zocky> "linux terminal editor with sane user interface" produces no useful results
2008-03-18 16:29 < zocky> maybe there's nothing to be found :\
2008-03-18 16:29 < cimon> Mike_H, and the gaelics are all Mc or Mac
2008-03-18 16:29 < Mike_H> cimon: And all those Icelandic women
2008-03-18 16:29 < Mike_H> ending it in -dottie
2008-03-18 16:29 < Mike_H> er
2008-03-18 16:29 < Mike_H> -dottir
2008-03-18 16:29 < Rayhou> yeah, they don't have real last names in Iceland, they have their father's name +son / +dottir
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> I had a teacher in school who was Icelandic
2008-03-18 16:30 < ThePolecat> Russians all ending in -ov or -enko
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> her name didn't end in dottir
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> because she was born in the US
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> and you can't add something to the last name of the father
2008-03-18 16:30 < cimon> Mike_H, btw, didn't mean to make any ethnic comment in reference to your own heritage. just remembered you might have mentioned you have polish backround...
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> cimon: What?!
2008-03-18 16:30 < cimon> hope I am misremembering
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> ?!?!?!
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> You are!
2008-03-18 16:30 < cimon> good
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> I'm German!
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> (we don't like Polish people)
2008-03-18 16:30 < Mike_H> ThePolecat: Sorry, we don't.
2008-03-18 16:30 < ThePolecat> thats the oddest thing ever
2008-03-18 16:30 < cimon> ah, so even worse...
2008-03-18 16:30 * ThePolecat is German
2008-03-18 16:31 < ThePolecat> this sense of "this is who you'll have to hate regardless of actual character"
2008-03-18 16:31 < cimon> now I have insulted you by mistakenly remembring you are of an ethnicity you traditionally are at odds with...
2008-03-18 16:31 < Mike_H> ThePolecat: Right.
2008-03-18 16:31 < Rayhou> Germans should not talk about their views towards Polish, it's somewhat politically incorrect
2008-03-18 16:31 < Mike_H> Rayhou: Well, every country has a country they're politically incorrect about
2008-03-18 16:31 < Mike_H> or region.
2008-03-18 16:32 < Mike_H> the English people don't like the Welsh
2008-03-18 16:32 < Mike_H> the Greeks don't like the Turks
2008-03-18 16:32 * ThePolecat has an entirely positive approach to Poland and the Polih
2008-03-18 16:32 < ThePolecat> *s