freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-18 10:20 < Demi> there is plenty in mediawiki that is evil
2008-03-18 10:21 < Demi> the only non-evil plain text markup or markup-like scheme i know of is rst
2008-03-18 10:21 < zocky> "variables" and parser functions are also evil the way they're implemented now
2008-03-18 10:22 < Demi> don't forget about allowed html, pseudo-html and xml- and html- like markup constructs
2008-03-18 10:22 < zocky> and the silly __MAGICWORD__ things
2008-03-18 10:22 < zocky> Demi, ah, yes, that too, but that can be made sound
2008-03-18 10:22 < zocky> you just need to forget the idea that it's html
2008-03-18 10:23 < zocky> it's custom wiki xml tags, some of which incidentally have the same syntax and meaning as some of html
2008-03-18 10:24 < Demi> no, there are both categories
2008-03-18 10:24 < Demi> anyway, for years people have been talking about "a real parser" for mediawiki--the proof is in the doing, not the idea of it.
2008-03-18 10:25 < NotACow> Demi: it's much harder than most people who talk about doing it realize.
2008-03-18 10:26 < NotACow> Demi: like most things, 80% of easy, and 20% of it is really fucking hard.
2008-03-18 10:26 < Demi> sure
2008-03-18 10:26 < zocky> NotACow, I think that the obsession with backward compatibility is a mistake
2008-03-18 10:26 < zocky> and it's not that hard without that obsession
2008-03-18 10:27 < Demi> sure, that's a different task
2008-03-18 10:27 < Demi> that's "how do we write something else that's easier to parse" not "how do we parse mediawiki markup"
2008-03-18 10:27 < zocky> what you need is a sane new syntax, which is reasonably similar to the current one, and a converter
2008-03-18 10:28 < NotACow> zocky: depends. you have to convert every single stored revision in the database if you do that.
2008-03-18 10:28 < zocky> NotACow, depends.. if you do it inside the current mediawiki, you can use the old parser for old revisions, and convert them only on editing
2008-03-18 10:29 < Demi> there is actually quite a good plaintext markup, except it's not really markup. rST was designed from the beginning with a document model behind it, which makes all the difference.
2008-03-18 10:29 < NotACow> zocky: that requires writing the new parser in PHP :)
2008-03-18 10:29 < NotACow> Demi: yeah, really
2008-03-18 10:29 < zocky> NotACow, nah, you write it in something that generates the php :P
2008-03-18 10:29 < zocky> I actually had that on a hard disk which has crashed
2008-03-18 10:29 < zocky> wasn't perfect, but made reasonable parsers
2008-03-18 10:30 < zocky> it was a grammar for RecDescent, which read a grammar similar to that of RecDescent and dumped working parsers in PHP
2008-03-18 10:30 < Demi> the perl module?
2008-03-18 10:31 < zocky> yes
2008-03-18 10:31 < zocky> parsing, at least recursive descent, is much simpler than people tend to think
2008-03-18 10:31 < Demi> since we're sort of on the subject, it would be nice to have a canonical, interchangeable grammar language for specifying parsers, does anyone know of such a thing?
2008-03-18 10:32 < zocky> Demi, depends what kind of parser
2008-03-18 10:32 < zocky> there are several versions for different kinds of parsers
2008-03-18 10:32 < Demi> i had a language specified in yecc, the erlang parser generator, and i converted it to Parse::RecDescent, it wasn't really hard butit would be nice to have this library of "this is how you parse HTML" and "this is how you parse email headers"
2008-03-18 10:33 < zocky> Demi, there's some meta write-up of that on W3 sites
2008-03-18 10:33 < NotACow> Demi: someone has a nearly-complete ANTLR parser for mediawiki, iirc
2008-03-18 10:33 < Demi> don't tell me, a grammar in XML, zocky?
2008-03-18 10:33 < zocky> Demi, nah, it's in the standard form that I can't remember the name of
2008-03-18 10:34 < zocky> similar to the one used to describe C in K&R, IIRC
2008-03-18 10:34 < NotACow> Demi: i think it's technically impossible to write a fully compliant parser for mediawiki markup as a recursive-descent parser, though
2008-03-18 10:34 < NotACow> Demi: you would have to either break the standard or tweak it somewhere
2008-03-18 10:34 < zocky> NotACow, as a pure one, yes
2008-03-18 10:35 < zocky> NotACow, but most systems have workarounds
2008-03-18 10:35 < Demi> it seems like a lot of these language specifications and RFCs could benefit from an interpretable grammer, rather than more or less symbolic BNF expressions and text descriptions
2008-03-18 10:35 < NotACow> actually, i suspect i would store articles in a semiparsed state instead of as raw markup
2008-03-18 10:35 < Demi> NotACow - a rigorous specification would reveal where that was the case and make it obvious, at least
2008-03-18 10:35 < NotACow> and convert from semiparsed to markup for edit, and then back again
2008-03-18 10:35 < Demi> NotACow - that's what i'm working on now, actually
2008-03-18 10:36 < zocky> NotACow, I thought about that too, but I don't think it's such a great idea
2008-03-18 10:36 < zocky> NotACow, there's merit in having source code that looks exactly like you typed it
2008-03-18 10:36 < NotACow> zocky: render is FAR more frequent than edit; it makes sense to put the expense at the edit end
2008-03-18 10:36 < Demi> the idea being that a) you can find things by parsed data, making metadata a lot easier to store and query
2008-03-18 10:36 < NotACow> zocky: yes, but articles aren't really source code.
2008-03-18 10:36 < Demi> and you can have much smarter diffing
2008-03-18 10:36 < zocky> NotACow, yeah, but data integrity comes on the edit side
2008-03-18 10:37 < Demi> NotACow - i'm working on a wiki system now where you can type in rST, and what gets stored in the database is the parsed document structure
2008-03-18 10:37 < NotACow> Demi: link to rST?
2008-03-18 10:37 < Demi> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html
2008-03-18 10:37 < NotACow> MrZ-man: how's the koolaid taste today?
2008-03-18 10:38 < zocky> NotACow, http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#quick-syntax-overview
2008-03-18 10:39 < Demi> there are some modifications that would be required, i haven't been working on the rST glue lately... when i last checked in, rST still needed some kind of enhancement for resolving internal links in collections of documents
2008-03-18 10:41 < NotACow> Demi: what would be very interesting is to have multiple parsers in the same engine
2008-03-18 10:41 < Demi> yes
2008-03-18 10:41 < NotACow> Demi: editors could chose whichever one they want; the wiki engine converts whatever they choose to the internal representation
2008-03-18 10:42 < Demi> yes
2008-03-18 10:42 < Demi> though i suspect you'll find that not every editing format can support all the things you'd want to do
2008-03-18 10:42 < NotACow> Demi: so you could edit in wikimarkup, restext, xml, or whatever
2008-03-18 10:42 < Demi> but i think i possibly don't mind about that
2008-03-18 10:42 < NotACow> Demi: you might have to use some sort of pragma approach
2008-03-18 10:43 < Demi> yep
2008-03-18 10:43 < Demi> but as an idea i think it has promise
2008-03-18 10:43 < NotACow> Demi: or local extensions, whatever.
2008-03-18 10:43 < zocky> yeah, that's definitely one of the things to think about
2008-03-18 10:43 < Demi> there are some good XHTML WYSIWYG editors, if you like that kind of thing: though i don't
2008-03-18 10:43 < NotACow> Demi: yeah, that thought immediately came to mind.
2008-03-18 10:44 < NotACow> i don't care for them but others might
2008-03-18 10:44 < zocky> NotACow, I entertain ever more outlandish ideas: the multiple representations could include progamming languages
2008-03-18 10:44 < Demi> NotACow - well, that's also one of the nice things about rST as opposed to markdown or whatever, it has a standard extension syntax for local diroctives
2008-03-18 10:44 < NotACow> Demi: excellent!
2008-03-18 10:44 < NotACow> Demi: so any local representation that is outside the rST standard domain can be neatly encapsulated.
2008-03-18 10:45 < NotACow> Demi: might not be immediately obvious to the editor what it does, but at least if they leave it alone no bad will happen
2008-03-18 10:45 < Demi> NotACow - i think they're an abomination (WYSIWYG editors): http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/DylanPartridge
2008-03-18 10:45 < Demi> NotACow - right
2008-03-18 10:45 < NotACow> it's important that your transformations be essentially reversible.
2008-03-18 10:45 < Demi> NotACow - it's also a neat way to do local standards and "templates" without cutting and pasting (logos and stuff)
2008-03-18 10:46 < NotACow> so if you go from itnernal format to rST and then back, you don't lose anything meaningful
2008-03-18 10:46 < Demi> yeah, that's also why I thought rST, because you can round-trip it easily
2008-03-18 10:46 < Demi> you might have to work kind of hard to get that feature into other schemes
2008-03-18 10:46 < zocky> i have a half-working, 3/4 decent, half wysiwyg editor on test.wiki
2008-03-18 10:46 < NotACow> i *hate* javascript
2008-03-18 10:46 < Demi> zocky - that's cool, is it all your own or based on another one?
2008-03-18 10:46 < NotACow> so you will NEVER see me writing a wysiwyg editor for a browser :)
2008-03-18 10:46 < zocky> it's really syntax highlighting, but in such a way that it approximates the final formatting
2008-03-18 10:47 < Demi> why couldn't browser makers have embedded scheme or something into browsers?
2008-03-18 10:47 < zocky> Demi, I took the basic bits out of something I took off the internet, but the wiki parts are my work
2008-03-18 10:47 < Demi> zocky - nice
2008-03-18 10:47 < Lucifer_Cat> NotACow: you break my little kitty heart :(
2008-03-18 10:47 < NotACow> Demi: heh
2008-03-18 10:48 < Demi> actually, i don't know much about the origins of javascript in browsers
2008-03-18 10:48 < zocky> oh, I have something even more silly installed on meta currently
2008-03-18 10:49 < zocky> "embeded javascript applications"
2008-03-18 10:49 < NotACow> Demi: originally developed to help glue java and html together.
2008-03-18 10:49 < zocky> so that any page can contain javascript and you can click a link to start it
2008-03-18 10:49 < NotACow> Demi: although not ever used much for that purpose
2008-03-18 10:49 < Lucifer_Cat> i only read the last few lines, so im not exactly sure what you are talkin bout... but i wrote an eclipse plugin last fall that did syntax highlighting for my profs pet language
2008-03-18 10:50 < Demi> now is this a language created by your professor, or your professor's pet?
2008-03-18 10:50 < Demi> NotACow - I'm trying to remember the first browser versions to include it
2008-03-18 10:50 < Lucifer_Cat> Demi: basically to provide "decision making and other such programming enabled tasks on web pages in a very Java-like way"
2008-03-18 10:50 < Lucifer_Cat> Demi: NetScape
2008-03-18 10:51 < Lucifer_Cat> 3/4 i dont remember
2008-03-18 10:51 < Lucifer_Cat> oh and for the other Q: i dont think he created it himself, but hes been instrumental in the development.
2008-03-18 10:51 < Demi> yeah, our article has no history of its development, responsible parties, that kind of thing
2008-03-18 10:51 < Lucifer_Cat> his slaves have done i'd say 90% of the development
2008-03-18 10:51 < Demi> Lucifer_Cat - does it use something other than '=' for assignment?
2008-03-18 10:52 < Lucifer_Cat> := iirc
2008-03-18 10:52 < Lucifer_Cat> and there :=: for swap
2008-03-18 10:52 < Demi> ha, yes
2008-03-18 10:52 < Demi> i knew it would be :=
2008-03-18 10:52 < zocky> Demi, want to try out my half-working editor?
2008-03-18 10:52 < NotACow> Demi: my old book on javascript (ca. 2002) has quite a bit on that. it's in a box somewhere, alas.
2008-03-18 10:52 < Lucifer_Cat> that was a neat feature... you could swap object reference using :=:
2008-03-18 10:53 < The359> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjgVeJkdBn0 The Coffee Printer
2008-03-18 10:53 < Demi> zocky - i wouldn't get a chance until tomorrow or thursday, really
2008-03-18 10:53 < Lucifer_Cat> Demi: haha yeah, they all do that to be smartasses
2008-03-18 10:54 < Demi> does anyone know ruby pretty well?
2008-03-18 10:54 < Demi> i'm rusty on it
2008-03-18 10:54 < NotACow> i don't much care for ruby
2008-03-18 10:54 < Austin> I'm a bit rusty, myself, but I used to know it pretty well.
2008-03-18 10:56 < Demi> ruby is a member of a family of languages i'm not that fond of, anymore, but it's my favorite of those; Austin - would you mind taking a look at this thread: http://arclanguage.org/item?id=4566
2008-03-18 10:56 < Demi> there's a bit in there about using a regular expression to "parse" an email address, which is done somewhat incorrectly in that post, and i'm making a point about how they suck, and I want to look at what a Ruby version of the Erlang approach below, would look like (that is, string operations by string methods, not regular expression matching)
2008-03-18 10:57 < NotACow> Demi: i hate regular expressions
2008-03-18 10:57 < Demi> Ideally also parsing out an IP address after the '@' in the email without regard to whether it's IPv4 or IPv6--I couldn't find a method to do that in Ruby
2008-03-18 10:57 < Demi> NotACow - so do I
2008-03-18 10:57 < NotACow> Demi: they're useful, sure, but people overuse them
2008-03-18 10:57 < NotACow> Demi: and PCREs especially are FUCKING SLOW
2008-03-18 10:57 < Demi> NotACow - I think they're very useful in the special case where you want to accept the user's input for some kind of search specification
2008-03-18 10:57 < NotACow> Demi: right.
2008-03-18 10:58 < Demi> other than that, this is what i said: "At the "low" end of text processing power, there are basic functional operations on strings and lists, and at the "high" end there are grammar specifiers and parser generators. In the band in between lives regular expressions, and I am not convinced that that band is very wide."
2008-03-18 10:58 < NotACow> Demi: they're nice whe you need to be configurable.
2008-03-18 10:58 < NotACow> Demi: but that's not the case in most situations.
2008-03-18 10:59 < Demi> NotACow - "configurable" so often means "I know I'm not going to get this right, better make it easy to change so I can iterate by trial and error and accrete some monster expression here"
2008-03-18 10:59 < NotACow> Demi: the main thing that makes mediawiki slow is that it uses regexps all over the place. fully 20% of the CPU of a running mediawiki install is spent chugging regexps.
2008-03-18 11:00 < NotACow> Demi: another 15% is spent chugging PHP object hashtables.
2008-03-18 11:00 < Demi> the "Perl" habit that so many people have inherited is the idea that all data is text strings, which need to be beaten into submission by the repeated application of regular expresssions
2008-03-18 11:00 < Demi> sometimes right down into the core code
2008-03-18 11:00 < NotACow> so that's 35% of your CPU going to totally avoidable implementation overheads.
2008-03-18 11:00 < Demi> how many times does a Perl module accept some kind of composed or concatenated string as an argument and then takes it apart?
2008-03-18 11:01 < NotACow> Demi: i see that all the time
2008-03-18 11:01 < zocky> Demi, here's a screenshot: http://portal.dinaris.org/wysawyg.png
2008-03-18 11:01 < NotACow> mash the data into a squashed form, so the next stage can rip it apart
2008-03-18 11:01 < NotACow> THAT'S WHAT CLASSES ARE FOR, YOU DOOFUS
2008-03-18 11:01 < Demi> so someone with that mindset starts writing a "parser", what they actually end up doing is writing a list of textual substitutions from whatever to HTML
2008-03-18 11:01 < Demi> NotACow - yep
2008-03-18 11:01 < NotACow> don't fucking serialize your data if you're not going to send it over the wire!
2008-03-18 11:02 < Demi> zocky - sweet
2008-03-18 11:02 < NotACow> Demi: yeah, mediawiki's parser is more of a coordinated attack on the text by ninjas.
2008-03-18 11:02 < Demi> that reminds me of emacs's mediawiki mode (i think)
2008-03-18 11:02 < NotACow> Demi: it never actually parses the text, it just slaps it around a lot.
2008-03-18 11:02 < Demi> NotACow - i was so disappointed when i found that the standard textile "parser" in redcloth worked that way
2008-03-18 11:03 < Demi> i had a wiki conversion project and it just didn't go well
2008-03-18 11:03 < NotACow> Demi: it's really scary to see some of the crazy shit that they've done in the mediawiki code
2008-03-18 11:03 < NotACow> would you like fries with that, tony dear?
2008-03-18 11:05 < kalila_> Hello - On Google search results we get a small summary of the article, where does it come from? for example, see: http://www.google.com/search?q=george+bush , where does the text "Open-source encyclopedia article provides personal, business and political information...." come from?
2008-03-18 11:05 < Demi> NotACow - so, last night, because some of these issues were fresh in my mind, I was thinking about some different approaches to some of these problems
2008-03-18 11:05 < jerusalemboogie> kalila_: I think it's default text after the George Washington "controversy"
2008-03-18 11:05 < Demi> and one thing that would be nice is a really comfortable, easy, lightweight grammar language to specify simple kinds of text matching parsers
2008-03-18 11:06 < kalila_> jerusalemboogie: I don't get it?
2008-03-18 11:07 < jerusalemboogie> kalila_: some vandalism got caught by Google's spidering program
2008-03-18 11:07 < Demi> bbiab
2008-03-18 11:07 < zocky> Demi, here's a more complex example with template calls: http://portal.dinaris.org/wysawyg2.png
2008-03-18 11:07 < jerusalemboogie> so, I think the devs, contacted google by email/someway to get them to respider Wikipedia
2008-03-18 11:07 < kalila_> jerusalemboogie: It's neutral text... It just describes the article, see the wikipedia rwesult for this search for another example: http://www.google.com/search?q=islam
2008-03-18 11:08 < kalila_> "An introduction to Islam, with links to Wikipedia's considerable collection of articles on the religion, its teachings, history, and practice."
2008-03-18 11:08 < jerusalemboogie> yeah, that's a fairly recent change
2008-03-18 11:08 < jerusalemboogie> especially with controversial articles like Islam or George Bush
2008-03-18 11:09 < WaSeEm> hi
2008-03-18 11:09 < Demi> zocky - do you do the pretty-printing there?
2008-03-18 11:09 < Demi> bbiab
2008-03-18 11:10 < zocky> Demi, it's some regexp/css wizardry
2008-03-18 11:10 < zocky> demi, so yes, the indents are done by me
2008-03-18 11:13 < Leslie_S> i stretched my ear piercings :o
2008-03-18 11:16 < Demi> zocky - nice
2008-03-18 11:18 < NotACow> so, who thinks wikipedia should have an article about Ronald Mongdock?
2008-03-18 11:18 < NotACow> sorry, Ronald Mondgock
2008-03-18 11:18 < NotACow> http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2008/03/10/100/?nc=1
2008-03-18 11:20 < zvook> the FCC won't let me be or let me be me so let me see
2008-03-18 11:21 < NotACow> is Ronald Mondgock notable?
2008-03-18 11:21 < Lucifer_Cat> is he on WP? No? Then hes not.
2008-03-18 11:22 < NotACow> that's rather circular logic
2008-03-18 11:22 < zvook> will he get more than 100 views a day? apparently that's your version of notable, is it not?
2008-03-18 11:23 < Pilotguy_aw> bleh.
2008-03-18 11:23 * Pilotguy kicks the servers
2008-03-18 11:23 < zocky> 100 views per day?
2008-03-18 11:23 < Lucifer_Cat> NotACow: does he have a red link?
2008-03-18 11:24 < Lucifer_Cat> red link is the break from that circle
2008-03-18 11:26 < zocky> enforce referential integrity: "this title is not linked from any page, so it can't be created" "you are about to remove the last link to [[ns:name]]. the page [[ns:name]] will be deleted. do you want to proceed?"
2008-03-18 11:27 < Demi> some wikis actually do more or less work that way
2008-03-18 11:27 < Pilotguy> Yep, def can't get on...
2008-03-18 11:28 < Pilotguy> We'll say iffy for some
2008-03-18 11:28 < zocky> Demi, really enforcing referential integrity (you can't link to this because it's not a page) would suck though
2008-03-18 11:28 < zocky> it's what causes most database UIs to be broken
2008-03-18 11:29 < zocky> I don't want to insert a new record in Customers before I can complete inserting the record I started typing in Bills
2008-03-18 11:29 < zocky> I want it to save normally and show a red link for the customer, so I can click it and create that record later
2008-03-18 11:30 < Demi> that depends, a wiki should work that way, yes
2008-03-18 11:31 < NotACow> zocky: referential integrity causes endless problems.
2008-03-18 11:32 < zocky> NotACow, btw, that's the kind of namespaces I want, Customers, Bills, etc.
2008-03-18 11:32 < Demi> zocky - are you familiar with twiki?
2008-03-18 11:32 < NotACow> zocky: intresting. you want to use namespace as a structed-data tool
2008-03-18 11:32 < NotACow> er, structured
2008-03-18 11:32 < zocky> so when I go to Customer:Foo I get a form that I can edit, and when I do {{customer:foo}} it inserts a nicely formatted report thingy
2008-03-18 11:32 < Demi> twiki can easily work like that, it's designed for (among other things) writing lightweight applications in the wiki
2008-03-18 11:33 < Demi> zocky - you should look at it
2008-03-18 11:33 < zocky> Demi, I looked a bit at it, and I remember I didn't like it. I don't remember why anymore
2008-03-18 11:33 < Demi> for example, we do our development process tracking in twiki, in the way you describe
2008-03-18 11:33 < Demi> zocky - it's written in perl?
2008-03-18 11:34 < Demi> and i wrote a plugin for twiki so we can query the wiki structured data with SQL (twiki doesn't have a database backend)
2008-03-18 11:34 < zocky> Demi, I think so
2008-03-18 11:34 < Demi> zocky - i mean, is that why you didn't like it?
2008-03-18 11:34 < zocky> nah, I can survive perl
2008-03-18 11:34 < zocky> i hate the $%@->{} crap, but it's C-oid enough for my taste
2008-03-18 11:35 < Demi> sure
2008-03-18 11:35 < zocky> I have some mediawiki extensions for rdf-like data storage
2008-03-18 11:36 < zocky> it's not fancy like semantic mediawiki
2008-03-18 11:36 < zocky> it's just triplets being stored in one huge table, and a syntax for making queries
2008-03-18 11:37 < Demi> {entity, attribute, value}?
2008-03-18 11:37 < zocky> i can do quite complex queries, but the query language still sucks
2008-03-18 11:37 < zocky> Demi, yeah
2008-03-18 11:37 < Ceiling_Cat> Abortions for all!
2008-03-18 11:37 < Ceiling_Cat> Booooooo!
2008-03-18 11:37 < Ceiling_Cat> All right, no abortions for anyone!
2008-03-18 11:37 < Ceiling_Cat> Booooooo!
2008-03-18 11:38 < Ceiling_Cat> Hrm...... abortions for some, minitature american flags for others!
2008-03-18 11:38 < Ceiling_Cat> Yaaaaaaaaaaay!
2008-03-18 11:38 < Scott5114> Ceiling_Cat: someone spike your coffee with vodka again? :p
2008-03-18 11:38 < Lucifer_Cat> Scott5114: hahahahaha
2008-03-18 11:38 < Ceiling_Cat> I'm referencing http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F02.html
2008-03-18 11:39 < zocky> Demi, I have horrible things like {{data:query|*:marker=prey_species|%*:label=prey_species|?type==prey}}
2008-03-18 11:39 < Lucifer_Cat> snpp?
2008-03-18 11:40 < Demi> the thing with referential integrity and other database-based data validation is, that in my experience you can *talk* about proper application behavior all you like, but any rules not enforced by the database simply will not apply to your data. if those rules include data validity, then you are screwed when you try to use the data.
2008-03-18 11:40 < Ceiling_Cat> SNPP is probably the best simpsons website on the internet
2008-03-18 11:40 < Ceiling_Cat> (SNPP = Springfield Nuclear Power Plant)
2008-03-18 11:40 < Demi> zocky - erlang has a nice list-comprehension-like syntax for queries
2008-03-18 11:40 < Lucifer_Cat> lol
2008-03-18 11:40 < zocky> Demi, yeah, of course, for something like a bank, real referential integrity is a must
2008-03-18 11:41 < zocky> Demi, link?
2008-03-18 11:41 < Lucifer_Cat> rather i would lol if i werent at work
2008-03-18 11:41 < NotACow> Demi: typically the way to deal with this problem is to have your application not commit a transaction until it has already committed the customer for it
2008-03-18 11:41 < Demi> zocky - http://www.erlang.org/doc/man/qlc.html
2008-03-18 11:41 < Demi> i'm not sure how much that will mean to you
2008-03-18 11:41 < NotACow> Demi: but too many app developers are lazy and want to commit transactions before they are complete.
2008-03-18 11:42 < quanticle> Wait, are we talking about a wiki having strict referential integrity?
2008-03-18 11:42 < NotACow> Demi: instaed of building a transaction-in-progress in an appropriate holding area, and commiting it only once it is fully complete.
2008-03-18 11:42 < Demi> NotACow - yes, though zocky made me think about pre-commit and post-commit referential integrity rules, and wondering if maybe they could be different
2008-03-18 11:42 < Demi> quanticle - well, zocky kind of did, as a joke, i think we're being more general now
2008-03-18 11:43 * zocky wants SELECT customer.address FROM bills WHERE customer.type!='internal' AND date_due < now()
2008-03-18 11:43 < quanticle> Demi: Ah. Ok. I was going to say, "Why not just strip off the wiki frontend and just use the ACID compliant SQL database behind it..."
2008-03-18 11:44 < quanticle> zocky: In a wiki?
2008-03-18 11:44 < zocky> quanticle, in a database, but in a wiki too
2008-03-18 11:44 < Demi> zocky - i did that, for our twiki, that's exactly what we do
2008-03-18 11:44 < zocky> Demi, I mean without having to do the joins
2008-03-18 11:44 < quanticle> zocky: Well databases already allow you to do that, don't they?
2008-03-18 11:45 < zocky> quanticle, no, you have to do a join, and if you have multiple fields in your foreign keys, you need to write a lot of text to get the same behaviour
2008-03-18 11:45 < Demi> ah, okay, so you want to look at the SQL (or whatever) evaluator and do natural joins on attributes referenced but not in the selected table
2008-03-18 11:46 < NotACow> flewugh
2008-03-18 11:46 < quanticle> zocky: Unless you create a denormalized version that allows you to do that.
2008-03-18 11:46 < zocky> quanticle, another example would be SELECT buyer.address, seller.address FROM bills
2008-03-18 11:46 < Demi> a traditional way to do that is to make bills a view
2008-03-18 11:46 < zocky> quanticle, where both buyer and seller are records in the persons table
2008-03-18 11:47 < quanticle> zocky: Hmmm, I'm going with what Demi said - view are probably the solution here.
2008-03-18 11:47 < quanticle> *view
2008-03-18 11:47 < quanticle> *views
2008-03-18 11:47 < quanticle> stupid s key
2008-03-18 11:47 < zocky> object databases are the way
2008-03-18 11:47 < quanticle> zocky: Currently object databases are slow as mollasses.
2008-03-18 11:48 < CharlotteWebb> somebody once told me "admins should be like the wife of caesar" but i think they meant to say pygmalion
2008-03-18 11:48 < quanticle> And don't get me started on the scariness of persistence layers.
2008-03-18 11:48 < CharlotteWebb> in practice it's more like henry viii
2008-03-18 11:48 < quanticle> CharlotteWebb: Executed often?
2008-03-18 11:49 < Ceiling_Cat> http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-03-18-court-wait_N.htm
2008-03-18 11:49 < Ceiling_Cat> WOW
2008-03-18 11:49 < zocky> quanticle, ah, maybe I'm not getting across right :) what I want is also SELECT customer.contactperson.city.timezone FROM bills
2008-03-18 11:50 < zocky> i.e. not just table.field
2008-03-18 11:51 < quanticle> zocky: Ah. Then there is no real good solution to that with SQL. Yeah, object databases might help, if you can get them to work.
2008-03-18 11:51 * CharlotteWebb heard DELETE amendment FROM bill_of_rights WHERE index == 2
2008-03-18 11:51 < Demi> there's nothing really about an RDBMS that precludes that, you're really just talking about the language
2008-03-18 11:52 < zocky> Demi, yes
2008-03-18 11:52 < zocky> Demi, well, partly
2008-03-18 11:52 < zocky> multi-field keys are the problem
2008-03-18 11:52 < Demi> where you get into problems with an RDBMS is where bills.customer could point to person or to company
2008-03-18 11:52 < Demi> or department
2008-03-18 11:53 < Demi> which is why so many such applications have "fake" or magic entries for things like that
2008-03-18 11:53 < zocky> if your product table has two fields in its primary key, than you're screwed
2008-03-18 11:53 < quanticle> CharlotteWebb: Well, that is the query, but its not clear that the user has the proper permissions to execute it.
2008-03-18 11:53 < Demi> why, zocky?
2008-03-18 11:53 < quanticle> CharlotteWebb: That is what is being decided.
2008-03-18 11:54 < zocky> Demi, because you can't have one field in another table point to those records, so you can't do table.product.price
2008-03-18 11:54 < Demi> why would it have to be one field?
2008-03-18 11:54 < zocky> Demi, of course, you could get around that with something like table.(producer,productcode).price
2008-03-18 11:54 < Demi> the relationship would be in the data dictionary
2008-03-18 11:55 < Demi> no, it could still be table.product.price, "product" would refer to an entity, not a column; so the preprocessor, or whatever, sees from the data dictionary than the join condition is on a compound key
2008-03-18 11:56 < zocky> Demi, yeah, of course... but it's no longer a strictly relational database then
2008-03-18 11:56 < Demi> sure it is
2008-03-18 11:56 < Demi> what it's not is an object database, because you don't have separate OIDs with the same attributes
2008-03-18 11:56 < zocky> yeah, internally
2008-03-18 11:56 < zocky> anyway, gotta run
2008-03-18 11:56 < Demi> natural keys and compound keys are perfectly fine in a relational database
2008-03-18 11:57 < zocky> I'll just recommend the new javascript/XML queries as a good model of a query language
2008-03-18 11:57 < zocky> bbl
2008-03-18 11:57 < Demi> as are relationships other than one-to-many (which your object database can't accommodate, can it?) // cool, zocky see you later
2008-03-18 11:58 < quanticle> So, in summary - databases are cool!
2008-03-18 11:58 < Demi> yes! also, bastards!
2008-03-18 11:58 < Demi> what's the difference between a kidnapper and a DBA?|
2008-03-18 11:59 < quanticle> Demi: What?
2008-03-18 11:59 < Demi> A: you can negotiate with a kidnapper.
2008-03-18 11:59 < quanticle> Heh.
2008-03-18 12:03 < bumm13> hiya Demi
2008-03-18 12:03 < Demi> hi bumm13
2008-03-18 12:03 < Demi> nice, our new web application's page load time: an hour
2008-03-18 12:03 < Demi> \o/
2008-03-18 12:03 < bumm13> cool
2008-03-18 12:04 * bumm13 picks a hair off of his pop can
2008-03-18 12:04 * The359 put it there
2008-03-18 12:04 * Demi leaves the rat turds
2008-03-18 12:05 < bumm13> heh
2008-03-18 12:05 < quanticle> Demi: An hour's load time? What browser do you use that doesn't time out?
2008-03-18 12:06 < Demi> i dunno
2008-03-18 12:06 < Demi> IE i guess?
2008-03-18 12:06 < Demi> maybe it's doing partial loading the whole time?
2008-03-18 12:07 < Demi> who knows
2008-03-18 12:07 < Demi> it was a passing reference in our meeting
2008-03-18 12:07 * TheWeasel wonders whether an extremely high atmospheric pressure can be felt
2008-03-18 12:08 < quanticle> TheWeasel: It can. Have you ever been diving?
2008-03-18 12:08 < TheWeasel> when the rest of the weather is reasonably normal so as to not make excessive "noise feeling"
2008-03-18 12:08 < TheWeasel> well, I mean on land
2008-03-18 12:08 < TheWeasel> noise feeling as in you probably don't think about the pressure in a hurricane
2008-03-18 12:08 < TheWeasel> (which has low pressure)
2008-03-18 12:09 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Oh. Well, in that case, some people (especially the elderly w/arthritis) can sense changes in barometric pressure.
2008-03-18 12:09 < Demi> i think i feel it in my food
2008-03-18 12:09 < Demi> "foot"
2008-03-18 12:09 < Demi> (food?!)
2008-03-18 12:09 < bumm13> heh
2008-03-18 12:09 < bumm13> small breakfast this morning? ;)
2008-03-18 12:09 < Demi> i don't know if that's pressure or temperature--it's low pressure though, bad weather coming
2008-03-18 12:10 < Demi> yeah
2008-03-18 12:10 < TheWeasel> hm... Oimjakon holds a record of 1083 mb
2008-03-18 12:10 < Demi> a tiny brownie and some smoked almonds
2008-03-18 12:10 < CharlotteWebb> there is a "neutral" on somebody's RFA, because the candidate was "swearing in edit summaries"
2008-03-18 12:10 < bumm13> :(
2008-03-18 12:10 < TheWeasel> does that make you feel heavy?
2008-03-18 12:10 < CharlotteWebb> specifically by describing a photo as "crappy"
2008-03-18 12:10 * Ceiling_Cat popls TheWeasel
2008-03-18 12:10 < Ceiling_Cat> pops*
2008-03-18 12:10 * Demi eats popplers
2008-03-18 12:10 < TheWeasel> Poplars?
2008-03-18 12:11 < bumm13> Popples
2008-03-18 12:11 < CharlotteWebb> pop goes TheWeasel!
2008-03-18 12:11 < TheWeasel> 1083 is damn high though
2008-03-18 12:11 < SportsMaster> Hello, can anyone tell me why the bracket on this page is not showing up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_National_Commissioners_Invitational_Tournament
2008-03-18 12:11 * CharlotteWebb hides
2008-03-18 12:11 < bumm13> SportsMaster: the bracket itself looks fine at my end
2008-03-18 12:12 < Demi> me too, SportsMaster
2008-03-18 12:12 < TheWeasel> Wait, I dont get it
2008-03-18 12:12 < CharlotteWebb> maybe you have a *crappy* web browser
2008-03-18 12:12 < bumm13> hmm, the Drake and Arizona text isn't showing though
2008-03-18 12:13 < TheWeasel> standard pressure 0 overground is 29.92 mmHg
2008-03-18 12:13 < TheWeasel> that wouldn't even be in the same ballpark
2008-03-18 12:13 < bumm13> I thought you metrical people used millibars?
2008-03-18 12:13 < SportsMaster> The team infoformation I entered does not show up
2008-03-18 12:13 < SportsMaster> information*
2008-03-18 12:13 < CharlotteWebb> oh i see it is not supposed to be blank but it is
2008-03-18 12:13 < SportsMaster> Yes, exactly
2008-03-18 12:14 < TheWeasel> oh, inHg
2008-03-18 12:14 < TheWeasel> stupid me
2008-03-18 12:14 < bumm13> :)
2008-03-18 12:14 < TheWeasel> damn aviation and its royal units
2008-03-18 12:14 < Demi> see how much confusion the metric system causes?
2008-03-18 12:14 < bumm13> heh
2008-03-18 12:14 < TheWeasel> undemocratic I say
2008-03-18 12:15 < bumm13> you created a hybrid unit ;)
2008-03-18 12:15 < Demi> personally i think atmospheres would be as clear as anything
2008-03-18 12:15 < TheWeasel> 31.98
2008-03-18 12:15 < TheWeasel> Holy shit
2008-03-18 12:15 < Demi> i guess you'd have too many decimals for climatology
2008-03-18 12:16 < CharlotteWebb> sportsmaster there is no RD3-team01 parameter
2008-03-18 12:16 < TheWeasel> Everything over 30.15 is safely in the "high pressure" area
2008-03-18 12:16 < CharlotteWebb> oh i see, you need to remove the 0
2008-03-18 12:16 < CharlotteWebb> it's RD3-team1
2008-03-18 12:17 < TheWeasel> What does extreme high pressure weather look like?
2008-03-18 12:17 < TheWeasel> No clouds for months on end?
2008-03-18 12:17 < SportsMaster> Ah ok. Thanks alot, I appricate it.
2008-03-18 12:17 < SportsMaster> I couldnt for the life of me figure out the problem
2008-03-18 12:17 < Demi> i think so, TheWeasel
2008-03-18 12:17 < Demi> it's been a while since i took meteorology
2008-03-18 12:18 < CharlotteWebb> seems to work now
2008-03-18 12:19 < TheWeasel> probably also next to no wind
2008-03-18 12:19 < Juliancolton> How do you define "Extreme" high pressure?
2008-03-18 12:20 < Juliancolton> High pressure brings cool temperatures, little or no precipitation, few clouds, and light wind
2008-03-18 12:20 < TheWeasel> extreme cold seems to help with high pressure
2008-03-18 12:20 < ideogram> i thought high pressure brings high teperatures
2008-03-18 12:21 < TheWeasel> 31.98 is sure to baffle your altimeter
2008-03-18 12:21 < Juliancolton> :O
2008-03-18 12:21 < TheWeasel> (pressure is used for calibration below a certain altitude)
2008-03-18 12:21 < Pilotguy> w00t!
2008-03-18 12:21 < Juliancolton> It's called a barometer
2008-03-18 12:21 < Pilotguy> Juliancolton- O RLY?!?!
2008-03-18 12:21 < Juliancolton> YA RLY
2008-03-18 12:21 < Pilotguy> KEWL!!!!!!
2008-03-18 12:22 < TheWeasel> No, it doesn't measure anything
2008-03-18 12:22 < TheWeasel> well it does
2008-03-18 12:22 < TheWeasel> but it uses the data to determine your altitude based on overground air pressure
2008-03-18 12:23 * Demi installs terrain-following radar on TheWeasel so he can determine his altitude
2008-03-18 12:24 < Leslie_S> anyone in here have stretched ear piercings? :o
2008-03-18 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> are you guys watching C-SPAN?
2008-03-18 12:24 * TheWeasel 's autopilot wobbles up and down because it doesn't realize it's been switched to overground altitude
2008-03-18 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> they are playing this morning's gun case
2008-03-18 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> [[District of Columbia v. Heller]]
2008-03-18 12:25 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Are they done already?
2008-03-18 12:26 < TheWeasel> yay, the 2nd amendment article follows the form of word-by-word commentary
2008-03-18 12:26 < quanticle> I thought the Supreme Court wouldn't release audio of the arguments until after the proceedings were finished.
2008-03-18 12:26 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - yes
2008-03-18 12:26 < Ceiling_Cat> they finished at 11
2008-03-18 12:26 < Lady_Aleena> Okay...I have a sentence with 8 references, and those refernces are all double digit numbers. ACK!
2008-03-18 12:26 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Wow. that was quick.
2008-03-18 12:26 < TheWeasel> the statute commentaries that do that are my favorites
2008-03-18 12:27 * Ceiling_Cat puts a saddle on TheWeasel and rides him into the sunset
2008-03-18 12:27 < quanticle> Lady_Aleena: Start weeding.
2008-03-18 12:27 * TheWeasel neighs
2008-03-18 12:27 < Demi> For example, gun advocates interpret the phrase "well-organized" to mean "not organized"
2008-03-18 12:28 < Lady_Aleena> The subject matter requires a lot of proof. Would someone just look at the grammar and referencing to tell me if it is okay so far?
2008-03-18 12:28 < TheWeasel> oh, excellent, it's translated and thus in the same structure here
2008-03-18 12:28 < quanticle> Lady_Aleena: You shouldn't need more than one reference per sentence. In rare cases you have two. But if you have 8 references, it usually means that you either have a run on sentense, or are citing the same fact from multiple sources, which is unnecessary and redundant.
2008-03-18 12:29 < Lady_Aleena> I am referencing 7 television series episodes.
2008-03-18 12:29 < quanticle> In the same sentence?
2008-03-18 12:29 < Demi> it might unnecessary, not needed, redundant and repeating yourself, as well as saying the same thing twice.
2008-03-18 12:29 < Lady_Aleena> Due to the format of the template I am using, I had to use sperate refs.
2008-03-18 12:29 < TheWeasel> Unnecessary, redundant, too much and repetitive.
2008-03-18 12:30 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-03-18 12:30 < Ceiling_Cat> hrm
2008-03-18 12:30 < Lady_Aleena> Well, isn't it the more references the better?
2008-03-18 12:30 < Ceiling_Cat> anthony kennedy is shredding heller's attorney
2008-03-18 12:30 < quanticle> Lady_Aleena: Not if it takes away from readability.
2008-03-18 12:30 < quanticle> There is such a thing as too much, y'know.
2008-03-18 12:30 < Ceiling_Cat> he just crushed him with logical jujistu
2008-03-18 12:31 < Lady_Aleena> I have this done for everything up to the Homicide section here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lady_Aleena/Television/Crossovers
2008-03-18 12:32 * TheWeasel finds it interesting when "constructionists" don't like the strict literalism once it comes to guns
2008-03-18 12:32 < Lady_Aleena> Most sentences have 2 references.
2008-03-18 12:32 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Say, has Souter spoken up yet? I think he's the one who has gone for two straight years without saying a word in oral arguments.
2008-03-18 12:33 * TheWeasel reads Cruikshanks
2008-03-18 12:33 < TheWeasel> stupid state laws...
2008-03-18 12:33 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Never mind, that was Thomas.
2008-03-18 12:34 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Has Thomas spoken?
2008-03-18 12:34 < TheWeasel> has he said the words "Long Dong Silver"?
2008-03-18 12:34 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Who?
2008-03-18 12:35 < TheWeasel> Thomas.
2008-03-18 12:35 < quanticle> Today?
2008-03-18 12:35 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - thomas has not asked a question in 2 years
2008-03-18 12:35 < TheWeasel> "Hill said: "He spoke about acts that he had seen in pornographic films involving such matters as women having sex with animals and films showing group sex or rape scenes....On several occasions, Thomas told me graphically of his own sexual prowess....Thomas was drinking a Coke in his office, he got up from the table at which we were working, went over to his desk to get the Coke, looked at...
2008-03-18 12:35 < TheWeasel> ...the can and asked, 'Who has put pipi hair on my Coke?'."[9] Hill also indicated that Thomas made reference to the pornographic actor Long Dong Silver."
2008-03-18 12:35 < Ceiling_Cat> Thomas is our national shame
2008-03-18 12:36 < Ceiling_Cat> he benefitted from affirmative action, only so that he could go to the supreme court and dismantle it
2008-03-18 12:36 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Wut?
2008-03-18 12:36 < TheWeasel> I'm jus' quotin'
2008-03-18 12:36 < Demi> quanticle - from thomas's confirmation hearings i assume
2008-03-18 12:36 < TheWeasel> ya, Anita Hill
2008-03-18 12:37 < quanticle> Ah.
2008-03-18 12:37 < TheWeasel> I think the question he was asked by one senator was "Have you ever uttered the words "Long Dong Silver"?"
2008-03-18 12:37 < bumm13> heh
2008-03-18 12:37 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Did Thomas speak up today?
2008-03-18 12:37 < TheWeasel> I think it was Orrin Hatch
2008-03-18 12:37 < TheWeasel> Brb
2008-03-18 12:38 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - I already answered that
2008-03-18 12:38 < Ceiling_Cat> [13:35] <Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - thomas has not asked a question in 2 years
2008-03-18 12:39 < libertad> what's up with http://download.wikimedia.org ?
2008-03-18 12:40 < Ceiling_Cat> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7303236.stm
2008-03-18 12:40 < Ceiling_Cat> But several MPs at the Knesset in Jerusalem walked out before the speech, saying Mrs Merkel's decision to speak in German was inappropriate.
2008-03-18 12:40 < Ceiling_Cat> touchy....
2008-03-18 12:40 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Yeah. No kidding.
2008-03-18 12:40 < Ceiling_Cat> frankly, I think they're just looking for a political issue
2008-03-18 12:40 < Ceiling_Cat> it's such a trivial thing to complain about
2008-03-18 12:41 < libertad> what happend with http://download.wikimedia.org?
2008-03-18 12:41 < ShakespeareFan00> Residual from last night?
2008-03-18 12:41 < Juliancolton> Don't remind me about last night...
2008-03-18 12:41 < Demi> wait a second, she's german
2008-03-18 12:41 < quanticle> Did the Germans ever issue a formal apology for the Holocaust? I know the issue of war crimes in the Pacific theatre is still an open issue between the Chinese and Japanese.
2008-03-18 12:41 < gracenotes_edu> libertad: down atm
2008-03-18 12:42 < libertad> gracenotes_edu: atm?
2008-03-18 12:42 < ShakespeareFan00> quanticle: The Germans should apologise for what the previous generation did?
2008-03-18 12:42 < ShakespeareFan00> Like the french should apologise for Napoleon?
2008-03-18 12:42 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Why not? Clinton issued an apology to Japanese-Americans for the internment camps in the US.
2008-03-18 12:43 < Demi> quanticle - "The Government of the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany until 1990) offered official apologies for Germany's role in the Holocaust" <- apparently, yes
2008-03-18 12:43 < ShakespeareFan00> OK , So I should start lobbying for the British Government to apologise to the Scots, for the Highland Clearances
2008-03-18 12:43 < ShakespeareFan00> ?
2008-03-18 12:43 < quanticle> Demi: Ah. Ok.
2008-03-18 12:43 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: You'd have to wait in line behind the descendants of the Boers
2008-03-18 12:43 < gracenotes_edu> ShakespeareFan00: and who's going to apologize to the Polish, eh?
2008-03-18 12:43 < ShakespeareFan00> Not to mention the Irish
2008-03-18 12:44 < ShakespeareFan00> gracenotes_edu: I didn't forget them...
2008-03-18 12:44 < Demi> now, what's interesting about japan is that it's the same government and competent to apologize for war crimes
2008-03-18 12:44 < Demi> but has not
2008-03-18 12:44 < ShakespeareFan00> The Dutch are alos in line for an apology
2008-03-18 12:44 < ShakespeareFan00> from the Germans
2008-03-18 12:44 < quanticle> Demi: What do you mean, "The same government?"
2008-03-18 12:44 < Demi> i mean the leadership of japan was not dismantled
2008-03-18 12:44 < Demi> there wasn't anything similar to denazification
2008-03-18 12:45 < quanticle> Demi: Hmmm, not sure I agree. I thought the Americans reimplemented Japan's government when they took over.
2008-03-18 12:45 < ShakespeareFan00> Demi: There was a big fuss on that when some Japanese offical visted the UK
2008-03-18 12:45 < TheWeasel> back
2008-03-18 12:45 < quanticle> Demi: That is true. there was no de-Nazification equivalent.
2008-03-18 12:45 < ShakespeareFan00> quanticle: Nothing like the wholesale dismantling seen in Germany (or Iraq)
2008-03-18 12:45 < TheWeasel> I think the German guilt culture is peerless in history.
2008-03-18 12:45 < TheWeasel> (I am very much for it, but still)
2008-03-18 12:45 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Yeah. Just misunderstood what Demi was talking about.
2008-03-18 12:46 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Hush. You're biased. ;)
2008-03-18 12:46 < Demi> TheWeasel - it causes some funny thinking sometimes, it seems to me
2008-03-18 12:46 < TheWeasel> It's very healthy.
2008-03-18 12:46 < TheWeasel> It holds you to standards of humility before life and human rights.
2008-03-18 12:46 < ShakespeareFan00> TheWeasel: Well Germans still apologise for thier cuntries conduct in the war... Even when it's been over for 60 YEARS!!!
2008-03-18 12:47 < TheWeasel> Doesn't make the conduct any less bad.
2008-03-18 12:47 < TheWeasel> We'd just hope other countries would do so as well
2008-03-18 12:47 < ShakespeareFan00> *countries sorry
2008-03-18 12:47 < TheWeasel> (which they don't)
2008-03-18 12:47 < TheWeasel> because "winners aren't judged"
2008-03-18 12:47 < ShakespeareFan00> Like qunaticle said, has the British Govt ever apologised over it's mistreatment of countless groups?
2008-03-18 12:48 < Demi> 60 years is not all that long
2008-03-18 12:48 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Well it doesn't hold a candle to the Serbs, who are still moaning about a defeat they suffered in 1392. I know Europeans have a greater sense of history than we Yanks, but c'mon!
2008-03-18 12:48 < TheWeasel> to me, humility is a far greater value than nationalism.
2008-03-18 12:48 < ideogram> Humility is good. Not sure guilt is the same thing.
2008-03-18 12:48 < ShakespeareFan00> quanticle: How far back to the Irish and Scots remember?
2008-03-18 12:48 < Demi> in some ways, i wonder if making racist or fascist views very socially unacceptable drives them to be hidden where they can fester; maybe i prefer to have a population of racists and fascists that can be held up to ridicule
2008-03-18 12:48 < CharlotteWebb> there is a user systematically AFD-ing rookies on major league soccer teams, on the basis that they have not yet appeared in a pro game.
2008-03-18 12:48 < TheWeasel> Well, it's a product of the sense of guilt
2008-03-18 12:48 < ShakespeareFan00> Not to mention the Welsh :)
2008-03-18 12:49 < ideogram> Guilt can have undesirable effects as well.
2008-03-18 12:49 < TheWeasel> and now the sense of guilt has given way to a culture of constant mindfulness
2008-03-18 12:49 < TheWeasel> which is good
2008-03-18 12:49 < gracenotes_edu> CharlotteWebb: there are also people who systematically create them :)
2008-03-18 12:49 < TheWeasel> and vigilance
2008-03-18 12:49 < ShakespeareFan00> Like in respect of some countries effectivly scaring them from taking an active role in certain things...
2008-03-18 12:49 < Demi> i'm concerned about the nature of "forbidden speech" in germany, but it's a subject i don't know a whole lot about
2008-03-18 12:49 < ShakespeareFan00> ISTR Germany being relecutnat to particpate in some Nato action in Afghanistan for example
2008-03-18 12:50 < ideogram> there are tradeoffs to everything
2008-03-18 12:50 < CharlotteWebb> gracenotes_edu, as well they should (!)
2008-03-18 12:50 < ShakespeareFan00> and closer to home in Kosovo IIRC
2008-03-18 12:50 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: Well, the Irish, at least, have a different case, since there were ongoing acts of violence on both sides. Scots have the same case, though Scottish nationalism was crushed in the 1600s(?). But the Kosovo thing was all pretty much about that one battle that the Serbs lost to the Ottomans in 1392.
2008-03-18 12:50 < Demi> being "reluctant to intervene" isn't necessarily a bad thing as a general rule
2008-03-18 12:50 < ShakespeareFan00> To the extent of letting extremists walk all over you?
2008-03-18 12:51 < TheWeasel> back
2008-03-18 12:51 < TheWeasel> argh, too much to read
2008-03-18 12:51 < ShakespeareFan00> (Granted that the Geman's have a far more propotinate set of anti-terror laws)
2008-03-18 12:51 < Demi> ShakespeareFan00 - well, you're talking about german national defense
2008-03-18 12:51 < Demi> you're talking about foreign intervention--shouldn't there be a high bar for that?
2008-03-18 12:51 < TheWeasel> well, the thing about Afghanistan is that we're not used to military ventures at all
2008-03-18 12:51 < ideogram> I haven't really studied the German psyche.
2008-03-18 12:51 < TheWeasel> which was less a German desire than an Allied policy
2008-03-18 12:51 < ideogram> But certainly having the United States as a protector makes it easier to have a pacifist foreign policy.
2008-03-18 12:51 < Demi> sorry, "you're *not* talking about domestic defense..."
2008-03-18 12:52 < ShakespeareFan00> Demi: There should be a bar yes, but because a country had it's own extrmists shouldn't scare them from tackling them overseas?
2008-03-18 12:52 < TheWeasel> Kosovo was really our first step and we kind of were rushed into Afghanistan
2008-03-18 12:52 < TheWeasel> so the culture over here hasn't really gotten used to it
2008-03-18 12:52 < quanticle> ShakespeareFan00: But, in exchange for those proportionate anti-terror laws, you're accepting far more restrictions on speech than here in the West. I sometimes feel that the Germans don't have the same notion of free speech as even the British, much less us Americans.
2008-03-18 12:52 < Demi> ShakespeareFan00 - maybe? i don't really mind that the idea of having german tanks in the desert leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.
2008-03-18 12:52 < libertad> what happend with http://download.wikimedia.org?
2008-03-18 12:52 < TheWeasel> If there was a proper plan in Afghanistan, we'd probably be far happier to fight more
2008-03-18 12:52 < ShakespeareFan00> quanticle: H,mm
2008-03-18 12:53 < Demi> i think maybe that bad taste should be more widespread, not less
2008-03-18 12:53 < TheWeasel> there's a lot of censorship in terms of personal rights in Germany
2008-03-18 12:53 < ShakespeareFan00> Demi: Why should German tanks in a desert leave a nasty taste if they following a defined and regulated mission?
2008-03-18 12:53 < TheWeasel> privacy, reputation and all that are more protected than in the US
2008-03-18 12:54 < ShakespeareFan00> A mission that's designed to protect human rights as much as anything
2008-03-18 12:54 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Right. You have lots more regulation on what's "acceptable" speech.
2008-03-18 12:54 < Demi> mission to what? to kill afghanis to get them out of the way of unocal's oil pipeline?
2008-03-18 12:54 < CharlotteWebb> so i don't get it. from what i gather, draft day rolls around and a bunch of new articles are created, then deleted based on a fucked-up literal interpretation of the WP:ATHLETE guideline, then re-created later
2008-03-18 12:54 < ideogram> History has come to regard the German role in WWII as a unique case. The reality is more depressing.
2008-03-18 12:54 < TheWeasel> Not really regulation, just courts that read them into the laws that don't really carry them at all
2008-03-18 12:54 < Ceiling_Cat> omg......
2008-03-18 12:54 < Ceiling_Cat> LOL
2008-03-18 12:54 < ShakespeareFan00> To prevent a resurgent Taliban becoming an extremist force again
2008-03-18 12:54 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: What's so funny?
2008-03-18 12:54 * Ceiling_Cat just got the legal threat *ever*
2008-03-18 12:54 < Demi> i want people with evil views to speak up about them, so i con ridicule them and speak against them
2008-03-18 12:55 < TheWeasel> the Taliban have never stopped being an extremist force.
2008-03-18 12:55 < Ceiling_Cat> I'm sorry, I really wish I could share this
2008-03-18 12:55 < Ceiling_Cat> but it's considered private
2008-03-18 12:55 < ShakespeareFan00> Demi " In America every crazy has the right to embrass themselves on the Evening News " :O
2008-03-18 12:55 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Awwww...
2008-03-18 12:55 < Demi> the allied forces don't care about the taliban or even osama bin laden
2008-03-18 12:55 < ShakespeareFan00> :)
2008-03-18 12:55 < ideogram> no one knows what the cat smirks about
2008-03-18 12:55 * TheWeasel thinks Germany could afford more free speech, especially so the Nazis can't play the oprressed minority
2008-03-18 12:55 < Demi> they care about installing a government that enables the fostering of u.s. interests
2008-03-18 12:55 < CharlotteWebb> TheWeasel, (nor beating their wives)
2008-03-18 12:55 * quanticle thinks Ceiling_Cat should rename himself to Chesire_Cat
2008-03-18 12:55 < ShakespeareFan00> Iraq was the wrong war
2008-03-18 12:56 < Ceiling_Cat> Ok, I will share exactly one sentence
2008-03-18 12:56 < ShakespeareFan00> Afghanistan was nessecary, but because Bush went to Iraq it lost focus
2008-03-18 12:56 < Ceiling_Cat> I am glad to see that you have finally posted your attorney of records address. However, I am not going to file my claim against you in California. I am filing my claim in the Vampyre Nation.
2008-03-18 12:56 < Demi> any benefits to afghanistan are side effects--i'm not saying there weren't positive side effects
2008-03-18 12:56 * Ceiling_Cat lulz
2008-03-18 12:56 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Any notion of where exactly this Vampyre Nation is located?
2008-03-18 12:56 < ShakespeareFan00> It's a shame that the US isn't fighting the 'war of ideas' that's needed in the Arab world
2008-03-18 12:56 < Demi> but in terms of the actual goals pursued, there's no evidence telling me that the allies are there to dismantle the taliban or catch al-qaeda