freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-18 08:09 < stefano_> when we say there is the number "1", we actually say four things: we have something called numbers, there are probably some of them existing, we can define specific numbers by certain criteria and one of those "numbers" we call one. this is not the universal truth, there are people in this world who don't have such a thing as numbers, but it still is accurate enough in order to be called the truth. assuming there is no universal truth
2008-03-18 08:09 < kenlyric> wikipedia is the summary (and the first result on google, to boot!)
2008-03-18 08:09 < zocky> numbers are a bad example
2008-03-18 08:10 < zocky> they're one of the few things that "exist" and would exist in any universe
2008-03-18 08:10 < jack_spratt> i got to go and play sup com im afraid. i feel the yearning.
2008-03-18 08:10 < stefano_> zocky, assuming it's not just something humans made up
2008-03-18 08:10 < zocky> stefano_, it's not
2008-03-18 08:10 < quanticle> jack_spratt: You're right. Its too early in the morning for an epistemological debate.
2008-03-18 08:10 < jack_spratt> however, i maintain and put to you that these problems that wikipedia may have are surmountable
2008-03-18 08:10 < stefano_> not to our knowledge :-) but thats realy not something we should even care about
2008-03-18 08:10 < jack_spratt> quanticle: agreed (itw 1.11pm here)
2008-03-18 08:10 < Lucifer_Cat> its only 8 am here
2008-03-18 08:10 < kenlyric> I'm pretty sure neither one of you remembers what you're debating.
2008-03-18 08:11 < ideogram> anything is surmountable given enough time
2008-03-18 08:11 < quanticle> kenlyric: I dunno, what are we debating?
2008-03-18 08:11 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: lol
2008-03-18 08:11 < ideogram> I am not sure wikipedia has that much time
2008-03-18 08:11 < kenlyric> I didn't say I had any idea either
2008-03-18 08:11 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: we'd need to argue about that as well lol
2008-03-18 08:11 < zocky> there were 8 large planets in the solar system before humans "invented" counting, and there would be 8 of them even if humans never existed
2008-03-18 08:11 * quanticle just got here
2008-03-18 08:11 < ideogram> people don't understand that fast growth can lead to equally fast decline
2008-03-18 08:11 * Lucifer_Cat too
2008-03-18 08:11 < jack_spratt> zocky: thats a dangerous game!
2008-03-18 08:11 < stefano_> we started debating the GFDL and endet up discussing if numbers are the truth and if there is a trush
2008-03-18 08:11 < kenlyric> mercury isn't so large
2008-03-18 08:11 < stefano_> how bad is that
2008-03-18 08:11 < ideogram> something that was created in a few years is a bad bet to last forever
2008-03-18 08:11 < kenlyric> it's in my sights next
2008-03-18 08:12 < Lucifer_Cat> and i see this whole bunch of arguments zooming by
2008-03-18 08:12 < quanticle> ideogram: Well, it depends on if you reach critical mass and form a self-sustaining community, or if you stop growing right below that threshold.
2008-03-18 08:12 < jack_spratt> im getting out of here before you can say timothy williamson!!
2008-03-18 08:12 < Cyrius> counting was invented before "planet" was formally defined
2008-03-18 08:12 < ideogram> I don't beleive there is a critical mass
2008-03-18 08:12 < stefano_> atm it feels like my first year in philosophy class, where i disagreed with everything
2008-03-18 08:12 < zocky> Cyrius, "large concentrations of matter", if you want
2008-03-18 08:12 < ideogram> you are right that the community is the important factor, but communities come and go
2008-03-18 08:13 < ideogram> and I see the wikipedia community in decline
2008-03-18 08:13 < zocky> Cyrius, and if we ignore planets, there are 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen in water
2008-03-18 08:13 < kenlyric> yahoo, back when it had categories, had a huge community devoted to organizing websites into the appropriate yahoo categories
2008-03-18 08:13 < zocky> numbers don't need humans to "exist"
2008-03-18 08:13 < stefano_> i agree
2008-03-18 08:14 < quanticle> ideogram: Not always. Many of the forums I belong to have very few contributors (<100) but the contributors are dedicated, and the forums are self-sustaining. Is that not a possibility for Wikipedia?
2008-03-18 08:14 < ideogram> it is a possibility for small communities, but not for maintaining over two million artifles
2008-03-18 08:14 < stefano_> a former teacher of mine said that anything that not at least one entity knows about exists. i disagree with that
2008-03-18 08:14 < stefano_> but i also refuse to discuss such topics at great lenghs
2008-03-18 08:15 < zocky> "existance" and "knowledge" are not related that way
2008-03-18 08:15 < kenlyric> shat?
2008-03-18 08:15 < kenlyric> too many nots
2008-03-18 08:15 < kenlyric> translation failure
2008-03-18 08:15 < stefano_> i made a mistake
2008-03-18 08:15 < zocky> it was a popular idea that they are in much of the 20th century
2008-03-18 08:15 < stefano_> doesnt exist
2008-03-18 08:15 < zocky> but it's crap
2008-03-18 08:15 < quanticle> kenlyric: It means that, as long as one entity knows about it, it exists.
2008-03-18 08:15 < kenlyric> yeah, that's crap
2008-03-18 08:15 < zocky> if a tree falls without anyone seeing it, it does produce sound
2008-03-18 08:15 < kenlyric> presumes divinity, I think, at least one creature that knows everything
2008-03-18 08:16 < Cyrius> depends on your definition of sound
2008-03-18 08:16 < quanticle> kenlyric: Yeah. Stuff can exist without people knowing about it.
2008-03-18 08:16 < Cyrius> it produces compression waves in the air
2008-03-18 08:16 < zocky> Cyrius, transversal waves of air
2008-03-18 08:16 < quanticle> zocky: Nah. Sound is a compression wave.
2008-03-18 08:16 < ideogram> the question arises over an unclear understanding over the distintion between the physical definition of sound, which is compression waves in air, and the human definition of sound, which is something perceived by a human
2008-03-18 08:16 < kenlyric> FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
2008-03-18 08:16 < zocky> ok, compression waves then
2008-03-18 08:17 * zocky studied physics 20 years ago, and in a different language
2008-03-18 08:17 < ideogram> pick your definition, you have your answer to the question
2008-03-18 08:17 < Cyrius> whatever kind of physical waves they are
2008-03-18 08:17 < ideogram> a lot of old riddles and paradoxes are based on unclear understandings of definitions
2008-03-18 08:17 < kenlyric> well, just assume the more general definition, so the answer is always yes
2008-03-18 08:18 * kenlyric makes the sound of one hand clapping
2008-03-18 08:18 < zocky> kenlyric, which actually isn't that hard :)
2008-03-18 08:18 < quanticle> ideogram: That's why I consider that question to be crap. Sound has existed for long before humans were around to percieve it. Also, there's nothing saying that the falling tree
2008-03-18 08:18 < quanticle> 's
2008-03-18 08:18 < Lucifer_Cat> "try the physics lab next door"
2008-03-18 08:18 < quanticle> sound won't be perceived by an animal
2008-03-18 08:19 < kenlyric> or the other trees
2008-03-18 08:19 < ideogram> yes, well, before the advent of modern science people did not clearly understand what it meant for something to exist distinct from a human's perception of it
2008-03-18 08:19 < ideogram> thus the riddle highlights an ambiguity in their understanding of the world
2008-03-18 08:19 < quanticle> Hmmm. Be back in a bit.
2008-03-18 08:19 < ideogram> and from a philosophical standpoint, you cannot say the modern scientific perspective is "better" than theirs
2008-03-18 08:20 < zocky> anyway, there's a giant leap of faith between the obvious fact that we can't directly know the universe, and that all information is filter through our imperfect senses and the idea that there is nothing to know about universe and that all we see and hear is an artifact of the senses
2008-03-18 08:20 < zocky> (it's also patent bullshit)
2008-03-18 08:24 < zocky> the senses evolved to provide us with information about our surroundings, and that information is limited to (a) what made difference in evolution and (b) what had the time and luck to evolve
2008-03-18 08:24 < zocky> so yes, "imperfectness" is built into it, but so is relation to reality
2008-03-18 08:26 < zocky> dalai lama threatens he'll resign
2008-03-18 08:27 < zocky> how can you resign something that's supposedly your inherent quality?
2008-03-18 08:27 * arcimboldo_ had been wondering about that same thing
2008-03-18 08:27 < kenlyric> fuck tibet in the goat ass
2008-03-18 08:27 < arcimboldo_> it's like Jimbo Wales resigning from being Jimbo Wales
2008-03-18 08:28 < zocky> ah, he won't resign as dalai lama, i gues
2008-03-18 08:28 < zocky> s
2008-03-18 08:28 < zocky> just as the leader of tibetans, whoever made him that
2008-03-18 08:28 < kenlyric> boohoo... poor guy can't have his theocracy back. I feel bad for him.
2008-03-18 08:28 < Lucifer_Cat> dalai lama is a title as far as i know
2008-03-18 08:28 < zocky> Lucifer_Cat, it's a mode of existence
2008-03-18 08:29 < zocky> you're born as one
2008-03-18 08:29 < zocky> it's not a title that you earn
2008-03-18 08:29 < Lucifer_Cat> supposed to be
2008-03-18 08:29 < zocky> of course
2008-03-18 08:29 < Lucifer_Cat> much like pharoahs?
2008-03-18 08:29 < zocky> there's no way somebody else can become dalai lama if he resigns
2008-03-18 08:29 * EmoBasset wonders where to get info on the exact course of the European Watershed
2008-03-18 08:29 < zocky> not until he dies anyway
2008-03-18 08:29 < kenlyric> granted, the chinese aren't angels, but they don't quite enslave the tibetan people like the monks did.
2008-03-18 08:29 * EmoBasset is entirely too intrigued of the concept
2008-03-18 08:30 < zocky> kenlyric, to be fair, they're not aiming to restore the theocracy
2008-03-18 08:30 < kenlyric> well sure, not *yet*
2008-03-18 08:30 < zocky> kenlyric, but the fact that tibet under lamas was a vile medieval dictatorship indeed tends to be overlooked by the tibet-supporting crowd in the west
2008-03-18 08:31 < arcimboldo_> the Dalai Lama is very restrained when it comes to viewing himself as a god (which is his role based on the religion he leads)
2008-03-18 08:31 < kenlyric> he's actually a pretty ok guy
2008-03-18 08:31 < kenlyric> I don't see him being much of a brutal dictator
2008-03-18 08:31 * EmoBasset figures the course should be a fairly straight line across the sources of the major rivers involved
2008-03-18 08:32 < kenlyric> he comes to our university a lot, I guess his brother lives here.
2008-03-18 08:32 < zocky> EmoBasset, it's mostly the alps, plus some non-impressive hills in southern germany
2008-03-18 08:33 < EmoBasset> ie. Guadalquivir - Guadiana - Tejo - Duoro - Ebro - Garonne - Loire - Seine - Rhone - Meuse - Rhine asf.
2008-03-18 08:33 < EmoBasset> watersheds tend to make for the most interesting journeys you can take, naturally
2008-03-18 08:34 < EmoBasset> except that they're averse to cities
2008-03-18 08:34 < bumm13> the Mississippi! ;)
2008-03-18 08:34 < EmoBasset> when in doubt, follow a watershed
2008-03-18 08:35 < EmoBasset> it works in Germany certainly
2008-03-18 08:35 < EmoBasset> (/divide/ in America)
2008-03-18 08:36 < bumm13> walking from around New Orleans to central MN is a long walk :x
2008-03-18 08:36 < ideogram> ah now I understand you
2008-03-18 08:36 < ideogram> walking the continental divide, for instance, is what you mean
2008-03-18 08:36 < bumm13> (or heading northwest toward Montana or northeast to western Penn.)
2008-03-18 08:36 < EmoBasset> following a river is not the same as following a watershed
2008-03-18 08:37 < EmoBasset> indeed, it's exactly the opposite
2008-03-18 08:37 < EmoBasset> :-D
2008-03-18 08:37 < EmoBasset> you *avoid* rivers
2008-03-18 08:37 * bumm13 no parse
2008-03-18 08:37 < ideogram> you are walking as far away from the rivers as you can get
2008-03-18 08:37 < EmoBasset> precisely
2008-03-18 08:37 < zocky> not really
2008-03-18 08:37 < zocky> you're walking between the sources of rivers, so that you never cross any rivers
2008-03-18 08:37 < ideogram> you are walking along the the ridges that separate which river system drops of rain go to
2008-03-18 08:37 < EmoBasset> well, in between two rivers if you can't avoid it
2008-03-18 08:37 < EmoBasset> some major river sources are bafflingly close
2008-03-18 08:37 < bumm13> that's impossible in much of the U.S.
2008-03-18 08:38 < ideogram> no, there is the appalachian trail which is precisely that
2008-03-18 08:38 < bumm13> or at least more difficult
2008-03-18 08:38 < ideogram> and really there are only two major divides in the US, the appalachian trail and the continental divide
2008-03-18 08:38 < ideogram> the appalachian trail is a major tourist destination
2008-03-18 08:38 < zocky> EmoBasset, I'm not sure you can really call what you're talking about a watershed
2008-03-18 08:38 < zocky> it's really a bunch of separate watersheds
2008-03-18 08:39 < EmoBasset> I do mean the Mediterranean/North Sea divide
2008-03-18 08:39 < zocky> yeah
2008-03-18 08:39 < EmoBasset> of different rivers, certainly
2008-03-18 08:39 < EmoBasset> but even smaller river system sheds, even more lowland ones tend to be rather pretty
2008-03-18 08:39 < zocky> EmoBasset, where mediterranean includes the black sea, I presume
2008-03-18 08:40 < ideogram> spectacular views, of course
2008-03-18 08:40 < EmoBasset> such as the North Sea/Baltic Sea one
2008-03-18 08:40 < EmoBasset> That's a second one
2008-03-18 08:40 < zocky> where I live, everything flows either to the adriatic or to the black sea
2008-03-18 08:40 < EmoBasset> Po/Danube/Rhine are considered three different paths
2008-03-18 08:41 < zocky> ...or underground
2008-03-18 08:41 < EmoBasset> yea, either via the Drau to the Danube or directly south to the Adriatic
2008-03-18 08:41 < EmoBasset> I guess
2008-03-18 08:41 < zocky> either sava -> danube or drava->danube
2008-03-18 08:42 < EmoBasset> I live in Elbe territory
2008-03-18 08:42 < EmoBasset> i.e. North Sea
2008-03-18 08:42 < zocky> and there's a bit of so�a/isonzo territory in the west of slovenia
2008-03-18 08:42 < zocky> plus some other minor rivers which go to the adriatic
2008-03-18 08:42 * bumm13 is very close to the Columbia River
2008-03-18 08:43 * EmoBasset considers driving down to Maloja Pass
2008-03-18 08:44 < cimon> Actually the Dalai Lama has hinted at something that is the closest thing to resigning a Lama can do.
2008-03-18 08:44 < bumm13> there's an old MGM Happy Harmonies cartoon called "The Blue Danube" :)
2008-03-18 08:44 < EmoBasset> quite an awesome feeling to stand where three adjacent rivers flow to three wildly differing bodies of water
2008-03-18 08:44 < EmoBasset> the Blue Danube is a stereotypical waltz by one of the Strauss brothers
2008-03-18 08:44 < bumm13> sounds about right
2008-03-18 08:44 < EmoBasset> *Strauss father/son
2008-03-18 08:44 < cimon> The Dalai Lama has on several occasions hinted that he may choose to not reincarnate the next time he dies.
2008-03-18 08:44 < bumm13> cimon: heh
2008-03-18 08:44 < zocky> the one played by the autodock computer
2008-03-18 08:45 < zocky> cimon, :)
2008-03-18 08:45 < cimon> bumm13, Actually, another suggestion he made was that he might choose to reincarnate as a woman...
2008-03-18 08:45 < bumm13> :)
2008-03-18 08:45 < Lucifer_Cat> or the aquaguard water filters :P
2008-03-18 08:45 < Lucifer_Cat> cimon: how politically correct
2008-03-18 08:46 < Lucifer_Cat> since he cant claim to re-incarnate as a black/brown/white man
2008-03-18 08:46 * EmoBasset chooses to reincarnate as a weasel
2008-03-18 08:46 < bumm13> EmoBassetWeasel: the sources of the Snake River (major Columbia tributary) and the Missouri River (major Miss. one) are geographically close
2008-03-18 08:46 < Lucifer_Cat> EmoBasset: whaddya mean reincarnate?
2008-03-18 08:46 < TheWeasel> Worked.
2008-03-18 08:46 < ideogram> so nice to see you again weasel
2008-03-18 08:46 < bumm13> but in an extremely rugged/mountainous area
2008-03-18 08:46 < TheWeasel> Yea, I never understood why the river as it is in New Orleans is called Mississippi
2008-03-18 08:47 < TheWeasel> since the MO is loads longer
2008-03-18 08:47 < bumm13> historic
2008-03-18 08:47 < TheWeasel> heh, historic pleading
2008-03-18 08:47 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-03-18 08:47 < cimon> Lucifer_Cat, hmm. I suppose you don't know this, but supposedly Steven Seagal is a reincarnated Lama...
2008-03-18 08:47 < TheWeasel> *appeal to tradition
2008-03-18 08:47 < bumm13> in northwest Florida, two rivers come together to "form" the Apalachicola River
2008-03-18 08:47 < bumm13> which isn't that long before it empties into the Gulf of Mexico
2008-03-18 08:48 < TheWeasel> Steven Seagull, the Man of the Two Faces
2008-03-18 08:48 < Lucifer_Cat> cimon: i thought he was a chuck norris clone :S
2008-03-18 08:48 < cimon> Though who would count Steven Seagal as a white man is a different question...
2008-03-18 08:48 < bumm13> (the Chatahoochee and one other river)
2008-03-18 08:48 < Solver> hi all. what's up with download.wikimedia.org?
2008-03-18 08:49 < bumm13> ah, I guess it is 112 miles (180 km) long...
2008-03-18 08:49 < bumm13> (the other river is the Flint)
2008-03-18 08:49 < TheWeasel> there hasn't been a working Wikipedia dump for as long as I can remember
2008-03-18 08:49 < bumm13> it's been a long long time now
2008-03-18 08:49 < ideogram> I find that quite troubling.
2008-03-18 08:49 < bumm13> a bit worrisome, in a way
2008-03-18 08:49 < ideogram> the whole point of wikipedia was to spread human knowledge, not be the sole repository.
2008-03-18 08:50 < Lady_Aleena> Hello...would someone tell me if I got the punctuation right in the following sentence? Please?
2008-03-18 08:50 < ideogram> not to mention that multiple copies provide an audit trail, making oversight abuse visible, for instance
2008-03-18 08:50 < cimon> From Wikipedia, the infallible source:
2008-03-18 08:50 < cimon> "Spiritualism and Buddhism plays an important role in Seagal's life and he has been recognized by Tibetan lama Penor Rinpoche as a reincarnated Tulku (Chungdrag Dorje)."
2008-03-18 08:50 < TheWeasel> "play"
2008-03-18 08:50 < Lady_Aleena> Home Improvement had two crossovers with Soul Man, Tim Taylor appeared in Soul Man "Communion Wine and Convicts" and then Reverend Mike Webber appeared in Home Improvement "Losing My Religion."
2008-03-18 08:51 < cimon> Chugdrag Dorje is pretty damn funky as names go.
2008-03-18 08:51 < The359> that sounds pretty bad, Lady_Aleena
2008-03-18 08:51 < cimon> *Chungdrag
2008-03-18 08:51 < Lady_Aleena> The359, what's wrong?
2008-03-18 08:51 < ideogram> wikipedia gets funnier every day
2008-03-18 08:51 < TheWeasel> Lady_Aleena: Grammatically correct, I'd put a colon between Soul Man and Tim Taylor though, and then a comma between "convicts" and "and"
2008-03-18 08:51 < ideogram> you should not take yourselves too seriously
2008-03-18 08:51 < The359> Lack of possessives
2008-03-18 08:51 < Solver> TheWeasel: the other day I visited it and it was working (sort of). en.WP was missing though
2008-03-18 08:51 < bumm13> EmoBasset: technically, the Mississippi shouldn't even be going through Nawlins anymore
2008-03-18 08:52 < The359> Soul Man's "Communion Wine and Convicts"
2008-03-18 08:52 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-03-18 08:52 < The359> Home Improvement's "Losing My Religion"
2008-03-18 08:52 < bumm13> the Army Corps of Engineers keep diverting it enough so that it continues to flow through the city
2008-03-18 08:52 < Solver> so is there anywhere else that dumps are available?
2008-03-18 08:52 < The359> and the period should be outside of the quotations
2008-03-18 08:52 < bumm13> otherwise it'd be moving a bit westward, I guess
2008-03-18 08:52 < ideogram> no
2008-03-18 08:52 < ideogram> the mirrors are all dead
2008-03-18 08:52 < Lady_Aleena> The359: The complete title is Series Name "Episode Name"
2008-03-18 08:52 < TheWeasel> I love those disputes between states where natural desaster changes boundaries that are fixed to river
2008-03-18 08:52 < Solver> ideogram: so how does one get a dump of the DB these days?
2008-03-18 08:52 < ideogram> you can't
2008-03-18 08:52 < ideogram> it's just not possible
2008-03-18 08:53 < TheWeasel> Patience, I guess
2008-03-18 08:53 < Solver> is that policy?
2008-03-18 08:53 < ideogram> well, you can get a partial dump
2008-03-18 08:53 < The359> what do you mean, complete title?
2008-03-18 08:53 < Solver> I'd be happy to skip edit histories
2008-03-18 08:53 < ideogram> no, it is attributed to a lack of time to fix technical problems
2008-03-18 08:53 < ideogram> yes, you can easiily get a dump of the current text without edit histories
2008-03-18 08:53 < Lady_Aleena> TheWeasel, thanks! I thought that, but wasn't sure.
2008-03-18 08:53 < TheWeasel> it's readability rather than grammar sometimes :-)
2008-03-18 08:54 < Solver> ideogram: oh cool. I'd even be happy to get it in XML but an SQL dump would be better
2008-03-18 08:54 < ideogram> the dump is in XML
2008-03-18 08:54 < ideogram> although that makes it very large
2008-03-18 08:54 < Solver> ideogram: do you have a url?
2008-03-18 08:54 < ideogram> no, sorry
2008-03-18 08:54 < ideogram> looked at it a long time ago
2008-03-18 08:54 < Solver> ok cool thanks.
2008-03-18 08:54 < Lady_Aleena> TheWeasel: You should see how bad it is with the references butting in all over the place.
2008-03-18 08:54 < Solver> I last did a download like that ages ago too..
2008-03-18 08:54 < ideogram> uncompressed XML version takes like 100GB
2008-03-18 08:54 < TheWeasel> yea.
2008-03-18 08:54 < Solver> yeah I'll go compressed :)
2008-03-18 08:54 < ideogram> well you have to uncompress it to use it
2008-03-18 08:55 < Solver> bzip2 is my friend :)
2008-03-18 08:55 < Lady_Aleena> TheWeasel: I have several sentences with 4 references within the sentence and then one at the end.
2008-03-18 08:55 < ideogram> so make sure you have a big hard drive
2008-03-18 08:55 < TheWeasel> I think sourcing for its own sake has gotten a bit out of hand.
2008-03-18 08:55 < Solver> ideogram: disk is cheap ;)
2008-03-18 08:55 < TheWeasel> I've never been a fan of oversourcing
2008-03-18 08:55 < ideogram> indeed
2008-03-18 08:55 < Solver> it's the d/l of 100GB which would suck
2008-03-18 08:55 < TheWeasel> But I know you have to
2008-03-18 08:55 < Solver> it should compress well though
2008-03-18 08:55 < ideogram> yes, the compressed version is like 15 GB
2008-03-18 08:55 < Lady_Aleena> TheWeasel: If I want this article to get off of the ground and into article space, I need to reference the hell out of it.
2008-03-18 08:55 < ideogram> yeah XML is hugely space-inefficient
2008-03-18 08:55 < arcimboldo_> Still better than short sentences with 7 adjectives and a "reference needed" tag behind each of them.
2008-03-18 08:56 < Lady_Aleena> Which is new to me.
2008-03-18 08:56 < TheWeasel> I know well
2008-03-18 08:56 < TheWeasel> good luck
2008-03-18 08:56 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-03-18 08:56 < Solver> ideogram: true. I'd actually prefer another format but I know they love XML :)
2008-03-18 08:56 < Lady_Aleena> I have never written an article with references before.
2008-03-18 08:56 < Lucifer_Cat> is it in any way possible to grab just some part of the encylopedia?
2008-03-18 08:56 < ideogram> I never understood the appeal of XML
2008-03-18 08:56 < TheWeasel> I think some people use "citation needed" like others heckle speeches.
2008-03-18 08:56 < Solver> agreed
2008-03-18 08:56 * zocky just wishes people started using templates for references
2008-03-18 08:56 < Lucifer_Cat> like one article and 2 levels of cross links?
2008-03-18 08:56 < zocky> <ref> tags are just vile
2008-03-18 08:56 < Solver> the xmpp (jabber) protocol annoys me :)
2008-03-18 08:56 < ideogram> supposedly text is human readable but the heirarchical nature of XML makes it unreadable without a special reader
2008-03-18 08:57 < Lady_Aleena> zocky: What templates?
2008-03-18 08:57 < Solver> ideogram: exactly. editing an xml conf file by hand is unworkable for any significant change
2008-03-18 08:57 < zocky> Lady_Aleena, I don't think there are any, because it couldn't be done in mediawiki until recently
2008-03-18 08:57 < quanticle> TheWeasel: You mean like this: http://xkcd.com/285/
2008-03-18 08:57 < zocky> Lady_Aleena, there are templates for putting inside <ref> though
2008-03-18 08:57 < Lady_Aleena> Ah!
2008-03-18 08:57 < TheWeasel> quanticle: <3
2008-03-18 08:57 < Lady_Aleena> zocky: I created one especially for this article.
2008-03-18 08:58 < zocky> <ref>{{cite|...}}</ref> IIRC
2008-03-18 08:58 < TheWeasel> brilliant
2008-03-18 08:58 < Lady_Aleena> And am using another for another site.
2008-03-18 08:58 < Lady_Aleena> I have only one odd ball reference.
2008-03-18 08:58 < zocky> Lady_Aleena, ah, for other sites I have all sorts of templates and parser functions :)
2008-03-18 08:59 < ideogram> it's too bad from all my Wikipedia-editing experience I think in wikimarkup now and want to use it everywhere
2008-03-18 08:59 < Solver> I use mediawiki for internal wikis generally
2008-03-18 08:59 < The359> {{citeweb|}}
2008-03-18 08:59 < zocky> ideogram, I do use it everywhere
2008-03-18 08:59 < Lady_Aleena> Does 10 references per paragraph seem okay?
2008-03-18 08:59 < Solver> I like the look n feel and the markup language is so well known
2008-03-18 08:59 < ideogram> I don't want to set up my own server just to make some web pages
2008-03-18 09:00 < zocky> ideogram, mediawiki is a very badly written program (a natural consequence of how it came about), but it does the job quite well
2008-03-18 09:00 < ideogram> indeed it makes pretty web pages
2008-03-18 09:00 < ideogram> of course Kelly is rewriting it in java, good luck with that
2008-03-18 09:00 < zocky> http://portal.dinaris.org/html/portal <-- templated by mediawiki
2008-03-18 09:01 < zocky> (and the geographic data is stored in mediawiki too
2008-03-18 09:01 < zocky> http://www.kud-fp.si/index.php/Glavna_stran <--- completely done in mediawiki
2008-03-18 09:03 < zocky> NotACow, are you really actually rewriting it? i have a ton of requirements :)
2008-03-18 09:03 < Lady_Aleena> What would be the maximum number of references per paragraph? I am looking at each paragraph having, on average, about 20.
2008-03-18 09:05 < Lucifer_Cat> rewriting what??
2008-03-18 09:05 < ideogram> mediawiki
2008-03-18 09:05 * Lucifer_Cat whistles
2008-03-18 09:05 < ideogram> mediawiki does need better integration of sound and video, that would be really cool
2008-03-18 09:06 < Lucifer_Cat> but then i guess its not as difficult as i'd believe, yet the scaling etc would be a bigger challenge than i think,
2008-03-18 09:06 < ideogram> it is quite difficult
2008-03-18 09:06 < ideogram> I don't think Kelly will ever finish
2008-03-18 09:06 < Lucifer_Cat> i'd want a team to do that
2008-03-18 09:07 < zocky> mediawiki needs to be deleted and rewritten from scratch
2008-03-18 09:07 < ideogram> well, it is a hobby for Kelly, not a serious industrial-strength project
2008-03-18 09:07 < Lucifer_Cat> for the simple reason that one brain cant comprehend/conceive the whole multifaceted system
2008-03-18 09:08 < zocky> the problem is that the basic infrastructure is not suited to it being a general templater/information cruncher
2008-03-18 09:08 < ideogram> too bad Rob Church left
2008-03-18 09:08 < zocky> versioning and other basic wiki stuff is reasonably sane, because it was a requirement from the beginning
2008-03-18 09:08 < ideogram> I bet that hurt a lot
2008-03-18 09:08 < ideogram> oddly enough I don't care about the wiki aspect, I am just used to the markup language
2008-03-18 09:09 < zocky> well, I know it's harder for me to get new features since he left :\
2008-03-18 09:09 < quanticle> Lady_Aleena: 10 references per paragraph?! How big are the paragraphs?
2008-03-18 09:09 < bumm13> o_O
2008-03-18 09:09 < ideogram> i would think more than one reference per sentence is excessive and distracting
2008-03-18 09:09 < quanticle> ideogram: Me too.
2008-03-18 09:10 < zocky> i don't care much for '''formatting stuff'''
2008-03-18 09:10 < zocky> but I couldn't live without {{template|arg=val}}
2008-03-18 09:10 < ideogram> well the main advantage of wikimarkup is it is pretty.
2008-03-18 09:10 * zocky invented that syntax
2008-03-18 09:10 < zocky> it was fairly obvious, of course
2008-03-18 09:10 < NotACow> zocky: drop me an email. i may yet abandon the port and start from scratch.
2008-03-18 09:10 < ideogram> template writing is too complicated and hard to understand
2008-03-18 09:11 < quanticle> ideogram: I'm sorry but I beg to differ. Wikimarkup is no prettier than HTML or LaTeX in my eyes.
2008-03-18 09:11 < Lady_Aleena> quanticle: Some are not long.
2008-03-18 09:11 < ideogram> but wikimarkup is easier to write than HTML or LaTex.
2008-03-18 09:11 < Lucifer_Cat> Latex in your eyes would hurt i suppose
2008-03-18 09:11 < ideogram> in particular it is easy to imbed images
2008-03-18 09:11 < quanticle> ideogram: I bet to differ in that as well. There's no intuitive reason for ''' to be bold, or == to indicate headings.
2008-03-18 09:12 < zocky> ideogram, yes, that's the only part of mediawiki markup that I miss when I use mediawiki just for templating html
2008-03-18 09:12 < quanticle> Wikimarkup IMHO is no more intuitive than XTHML
2008-03-18 09:12 < ideogram> well, yes, those details are not the best, but they are kind of trrivial
2008-03-18 09:12 < zocky> quanticle, nah, it's easier to look at a wiki page and imagine the resultant formatting than with html
2008-03-18 09:12 < quanticle> ideogram: Trivial? That's basic text markup. If we can't get that right, then what's the point.
2008-03-18 09:12 < ideogram> certainly LaTeX's syntax is more general and regular
2008-03-18 09:13 < quanticle> zocky: Not really, especially if you have tables or lists.
2008-03-18 09:13 < zocky> quanticle, lists are OK, tables do suck
2008-03-18 09:13 < ideogram> no quanticle, I am speaking of a quick and dirty method of getting something not too complicated done
2008-03-18 09:13 * quanticle thinks wiki markup is a kludge
2008-03-18 09:13 < ideogram> like a single page article, not a book
2008-03-18 09:13 < quanticle> ideogram: I've not found wiki markup to be any quicker, and a whole lot dirtier.
2008-03-18 09:13 < zocky> quanticle, I once had a brilliant idea for table markup... it couldn't work now because we already use | for template arguments, but here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Zocky/Table_syntax
2008-03-18 09:14 < ideogram> it's hard to learn html without being expected to know css and javascript too
2008-03-18 09:14 < ideogram> quanticle that is because you already know html and LaTeX
2008-03-18 09:14 < zocky> one problem with lists is that \n in a middle of a * line ends the list
2008-03-18 09:14 < ideogram> wikimarkup is easy to pick up for a novice
2008-03-18 09:14 < zocky> that's unobvious (and totally unnecessary)
2008-03-18 09:15 < zocky> ideogram, nah, we learned HTML just fine before css and js existed
2008-03-18 09:15 < ideogram> no, I am speaking of learning from existing examples
2008-03-18 09:15 < quanticle> ideogram: Nope. I learned LaTeX just this past month, and I found it a lot easier to learn than Wikimarkup.
2008-03-18 09:16 < ideogram> it is pretty hard to look at a web page and say, "how do I make something that looks like that?"
2008-03-18 09:16 < ideogram> if I recall correctly LaTeX is for creating print documents not hypertext
2008-03-18 09:16 < zocky> latex is easy to learn if you're a programmer
2008-03-18 09:16 < quanticle> ideogram: Its pretty hard to replicate an expert's work as a novice. It doesn't matter what medium you're working in.
2008-03-18 09:17 < quanticle> ideogram: LaTeX is still markup.
2008-03-18 09:17 < ideogram> you can learn mediawiki easy by stealing examples from all over wikipedia
2008-03-18 09:17 < ideogram> again, I'm not speaking of replicating an expert's work.
2008-03-18 09:17 < quanticle> ideogram: Right. But that doesn't make mediawiki any more intuitive than HTML. After all you can create a web site by ripping HTML off other peoples pages too.
2008-03-18 09:17 < ideogram> i'm talking about an easy to learn way to make something pretty quickly
2008-03-18 09:17 < ideogram> I also do not believe I used the word "intuitive"
2008-03-18 09:18 < quanticle> ideogram: "Easy way to get something done quickly as a beginner" == intuitive
2008-03-18 09:18 < ideogram> not to mention that it is hard to read other people's web pages if you don't know .css or javascript, as I already mentioned
2008-03-18 09:18 < quanticle> ideogram: You didn't use the word, but you used the defintion.
2008-03-18 09:18 < ideogram> no, what is intuitive is different for different people, obviously since we are having this discussion
2008-03-18 09:19 < quanticle> ideogram: And it can be very difficult to read wikimarkup if you don't know the syntax for templates.
2008-03-18 09:19 < ideogram> again, I mentioned templates as a weak point
2008-03-18 09:19 < ideogram> but you can get a lot done in wikimarkup without templates
2008-03-18 09:19 < ideogram> just by copying from the huge base of examples
2008-03-18 09:19 < zocky> templates are about as hard to understand as links or images
2008-03-18 09:19 < Lady_Aleena> Should job titles be abbreviated in an article?
2008-03-18 09:19 < zocky> it's still more obvious than html
2008-03-18 09:19 < ideogram> no, actually writing a template is too hard
2008-03-18 09:20 < zocky> ideogram, yes, I agree with that
2008-03-18 09:20 < ideogram> using an existing template is easy, of course
2008-03-18 09:20 < zocky> {{{arg}}} was a mistake
2008-03-18 09:20 < quanticle> ideogram: You're arguing that wikimarkup is inherently better for quick and dirty jobs. I'm arguing otherwise. Wikimarkup is not inherently quicker, but it is a hell of a lot dirtier for anything nontrivial.
2008-03-18 09:20 < Lady_Aleena> ideogram: Templating is easy.
2008-03-18 09:20 < The359> Sweden’s Supreme Court rules in favor of late film director Vilgot Sjöman who had sued a TV channel for copyright infringement after it ran three commercial breaks during the director's film.
2008-03-18 09:20 < The359> wtf? Copyright infringement?
2008-03-18 09:20 < zocky> Lady_Aleena, as long as you don't need to do anything complicated
2008-03-18 09:20 < ideogram> inherently? I also would not use that word
2008-03-18 09:20 < quanticle> The359: How does that work?
2008-03-18 09:20 < ideogram> I found it easier, and I'm trying to explain why
2008-03-18 09:20 < The359> I assume that by inserting commercials, they "modified" the film
2008-03-18 09:21 < The359> which is copyright infringement I guess?
2008-03-18 09:21 < quanticle> The359: Huh. So TV movies in Sweden now have to go commercial free?
2008-03-18 09:22 < Lady_Aleena> Question: If you saw Det. Name Name, would you know that the Det. stood for Detective?
2008-03-18 09:22 < zocky> The359, I don't think it's directly "infringement", but there's another mechanism that could apply, which is that they can't use your work in ways that demean it
2008-03-18 09:22 < ideogram> i am using a lot of Bulletin Board systems that invented their own markup, not to mention blog posting systems and Google Document and rich text email and nothing is quite as expressive as wikimarkup and I miss it
2008-03-18 09:22 < alesan> greedy film directors... how is that possible, there must be some special event in this case
2008-03-18 09:22 < zocky> Lady_Aleena, no
2008-03-18 09:22 < ideogram> you'd think rich text email would make it easy to embed an image but it does not
2008-03-18 09:23 < zocky> Lady_Aleena, those are very country-specific
2008-03-18 09:23 < quanticle> ideogram: That's not true. Wikimarkup is no more expressive than, say BBEdit tags...
2008-03-18 09:23 < zocky> quanticle, ideogram, you two should just drop it. you don't agree and that's it.
2008-03-18 09:23 < ideogram> I don't think there are a lot of formatting options with BBEdi, but then again I'm not using it right now
2008-03-18 09:23 < Lady_Aleena> Thanks zocky...The sentence "Det. James Martinez from NYPD Blue appeared in The Drew Carey Show" needs to be "Detective James Martinez from NYPD Blue appeared in The Drew Carey Show"
2008-03-18 09:24 < quanticle> ideogram: I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.
2008-03-18 09:25 < ideogram> in my blog I really want something like [code][/code] but the HTML strips out anything like #include <stdio.h> so I can't just cut and paste my code
2008-03-18 09:25 < quanticle> ideogram: Isn't that what <pre> and </pre> are for?
2008-03-18 09:25 < ideogram> it doesn't work, HTML thinks <stdio.h> is an embedded tag and strips it
2008-03-18 09:25 < Undeference> <xmp> and that's not a standard
2008-03-18 09:26 < Lady_Aleena> ideogram: Er, quanticle beat me to it.
2008-03-18 09:26 < ideogram> let me see if it works on blogspot
2008-03-18 09:26 < quanticle> ideogram: Oh. Right. You have to replace < with < and > with >
2008-03-18 09:27 < Undeference> (or <![CDATA[...]]> in xml)
2008-03-18 09:27 < ideogram> yes and I just want to cut and paste
2008-03-18 09:28 < Lady_Aleena> ACK! I have one sentence that will need 7 references.
2008-03-18 09:28 * Lady_Aleena blurbles.
2008-03-18 09:28 < ideogram> you must be joking
2008-03-18 09:29 < Lucifer_Cat> nah, hes pretty serious
2008-03-18 09:29 < Lady_Aleena> A minor character that appeared in 3 episodes of one series appeared in 3 episodes of another series, so I need to reference all 6 episodes for that one sentence.
2008-03-18 09:29 < quanticle> ideogram: Yeah. That kinda sucks. I've found that what I end up doing is paste into a temp file, find replace to get < to become < etc. and then paste into the HTML file.
2008-03-18 09:29 < quanticle> ideogram: Its a horribly dirty way to do it, but it works.
2008-03-18 09:29 < ideogram> yeah I could do that if I wasn't so lazy
2008-03-18 09:30 < Lucifer_Cat> is there any other way to edit wiki articles other than to use your browser?
2008-03-18 09:30 < ideogram> i have no idea what <xmp> is doing to my blog post but it is definitely not what I want
2008-03-18 09:31 < Lady_Aleena> Lucifer_Cat: You could always use a text editor then copy it into your browser later.
2008-03-18 09:31 < ideogram> I found myself doing that a lot
2008-03-18 09:31 < Lucifer_Cat> sounds like even more work
2008-03-18 09:31 < Lucifer_Cat> a safer thing to do ofcourse
2008-03-18 09:31 < Lady_Aleena> Lucifer_Cat: What are you looking for?
2008-03-18 09:31 < ideogram> I find emacs does a lot of things I want to do, and is generally more natural to me, than the browser editor
2008-03-18 09:32 < quanticle> ideogram: Heh. Does emacs have a wiki-mode yet?
2008-03-18 09:32 < ideogram> it might
2008-03-18 09:32 < ideogram> you never know
2008-03-18 09:32 * quanticle wouldn't be surprised
2008-03-18 09:32 < quanticle> http://xkcd.com/378/
2008-03-18 09:33 < Lucifer_Cat> this one time, i was helping someone with referencing articles and stuff... and i had to jump between different articles.. and editing them and juggling all the tabs and everything was a bit of a pain
2008-03-18 09:33 < sargun_screen> ok...
2008-03-18 09:33 < ideogram> get a bigger monitor
2008-03-18 09:33 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle!!!!
2008-03-18 09:33 < sargun_screen> Get Compiz.
2008-03-18 09:33 < ideogram> two screens minimum, three ideal
2008-03-18 09:33 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: What?
2008-03-18 09:33 < Lucifer_Cat> I love my new workspace... and know why??
2008-03-18 09:33 < sargun_screen> An actual usage for XGL
2008-03-18 09:33 < ideogram> Compiz is eye candy
2008-03-18 09:33 < Lucifer_Cat> i walked in for the first time yesterday....
2008-03-18 09:33 < ideogram> no productivity enhancement whatsoever
2008-03-18 09:34 < zocky> some of what compiz can do is actually good
2008-03-18 09:34 < Lucifer_Cat> and saw that very strip posted on someones door
2008-03-18 09:34 < sargun_screen> oh, get four monitors, each 30 inches, wrap it around your workstation
2008-03-18 09:34 < sargun_screen> ideogram: that's not true.
2008-03-18 09:34 < ideogram> three is the sweet spot
2008-03-18 09:34 < Lucifer_Cat> i almost went
2008-03-18 09:34 < sargun_screen> some of the opacity features help with that
2008-03-18 09:34 < Lucifer_Cat> <3 this place :P
2008-03-18 09:34 < sargun_screen> (productivity)
2008-03-18 09:34 < zocky> like making non-active windows darker
2008-03-18 09:34 < ideogram> one in the center in front of you without a distracting seam
2008-03-18 09:34 < sargun_screen> that too.
2008-03-18 09:34 < zocky> it's mostly eye candy though
2008-03-18 09:34 < Lucifer_Cat> now only if i could find some real friends :S
2008-03-18 09:34 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: I have this one: http://xkcd.com/303/ posted on my cubicle
2008-03-18 09:35 < zocky> you can have 4 monitors, with three in the bottom row, and one above your main monitor
2008-03-18 09:35 < ideogram> what do the opacity features do?
2008-03-18 09:35 < Lucifer_Cat> hahaha i very much intend to do that once i start development/testing
2008-03-18 09:35 < zocky> ideogram, you can make windows transparent
2008-03-18 09:35 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Its a running joke at my organization, since our application takes ~30 minutes to compile
2008-03-18 09:35 < zocky> I hate that, incidentally
2008-03-18 09:35 < ideogram> why does that help?
2008-03-18 09:36 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: If you do the full compile, of course. Incremental compilation runs much more quickly.
2008-03-18 09:36 < meatmanek__> what do I put in a section to give it the "not enough context" box
2008-03-18 09:37 < quanticle> I've never understood the appeal of transparent/translucent windows. I just find them distracting.
2008-03-18 09:37 < Lucifer_Cat> haha nice. where i worked a cpl years back, the program test runs would take anywhere between 3 hours to overnight. i looked at that strip and thats the first thing i thought bout
2008-03-18 09:37 < ideogram> that's what I would think
2008-03-18 09:37 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: eye candy for non-serious computer users
2008-03-18 09:37 < meatmanek__> translucent windows are nice if you have some blurring applied to the stuff underneath
2008-03-18 09:37 < meatmanek__> not a whole lot
2008-03-18 09:38 < Lucifer_Cat> that would qualify a frightening number of developers
2008-03-18 09:38 < meatmanek__> just enough to make it clear which is in the window on top
2008-03-18 09:38 < meatmanek__> but still sharp enough to read
2008-03-18 09:38 < quanticle> meatmanek__: Really? I've found that the blurring just ends up giving me a headache, because my eyes try to unconciously bring it into focus.
2008-03-18 09:38 < ideogram> it seems to me I would rather have more screen space than see through my windows
2008-03-18 09:39 < quanticle> ideogram: Yeah, but compiz can't get you a bigger monitor.
2008-03-18 09:39 < Lycurgus> hebrew sure does sound like arabic
2008-03-18 09:39 < ideogram> hebrew and arabic are closely related
2008-03-18 09:39 < zocky> the only translucent window I want is a console that comes up on pressing ~, like in quake
2008-03-18 09:39 < quanticle> Lycurgus: They're both read from right-to-left
2008-03-18 09:40 < quanticle> zocky: Yeah. That'd be a good use for translucency.
2008-03-18 09:40 < Lucifer_Cat> Q3A:FTW
2008-03-18 09:40 < ideogram> translucency would be good if you are running a fullscreen application like a video playing in the background
2008-03-18 09:40 < meatmanek__> q3a always seemed like a UT ripoff to me
2008-03-18 09:41 < ideogram> but I don't often do that
2008-03-18 09:41 < Lycurgus> the german chancelloress is about to address the Knesset
2008-03-18 09:41 < meatmanek__> heh, some kid once tried to convince me that q3a and ut used the same engine.
2008-03-18 09:41 < meatmanek__> anyway
2008-03-18 09:41 < meatmanek__> gotta work.
2008-03-18 09:44 < quanticle> Lycurgus: So that's what you call Ms. Merkel?
2008-03-18 09:44 < Lycurgus> not sure it was actually live. Euronews preempted it with commercials.
2008-03-18 09:45 < Lycurgus> Kantzlerin. I wonder why they don't say Kammerherr no more. Then she could be Kammerdame oder was.
2008-03-18 09:48 < zocky> some guy on the internet "!title=Buddy List" That's some cracked out syntax. Since when is !title equal to "Buddy List" ?
2008-03-18 09:49 < zocky> since when is using words like "cracked out" an excuse for being stupid?
2008-03-18 09:50 < zocky> quanticle, stjerm -k grave -bg black -w 1000 -h 600 -fn 16 -b thin -o 60 seems to work alright for a quake-like console on my screen
2008-03-18 09:51 < NotACow> zocky: if i were to abandon wikimarkup, i'd probably go to the universal markup that is being developed by basically every wiki engine EXCEPT mediawiki
2008-03-18 09:52 < jerusalemboogie> NotACow: the type that does CamelCase links?
2008-03-18 09:52 < zocky> NotACow, I don't mind most of wikimarkup, and no matter what other wikis do, whatever is used on wikipedia is the standard that needs to be approximated, IMO
2008-03-18 09:52 < zocky> camel case links are teh suck
2008-03-18 09:53 < NotACow> zocky: i'd like to remain database-compatible, or at least mostly so, witj mediawiki. that means not substantially altering markup.
2008-03-18 09:53 < NotACow> jerusalemboogie: camelcase is a historical relic even in most newer wikis.
2008-03-18 09:54 < NotACow> zocky: i might change the parsing of some of the pathological cases
2008-03-18 09:54 < zocky> NotACow, the one big problem I have with the current markup (well, more with the parsing) is how [[links]] are handled
2008-03-18 09:54 < NotACow> zocky: hm?
2008-03-18 09:55 * Lycurgus wonders what "the universal markup that is being developed by basically every wiki" is.
2008-03-18 09:55 < NotACow> Lycurgus: google wikicreole
2008-03-18 09:55 < zocky> NotACow, it's a bit complicated, but the way I see it, every title has a "type" or "class", which depends on the namespace (and sometimes on the extension, but meh)
2008-03-18 09:55 < Lycurgus> Acknowledged.
2008-03-18 09:56 < NotACow> zocky: i don't think the extension has any impact on markup rendering
2008-03-18 09:56 < zocky> NotACow, the class that the title belongs to should be the one that says what [[links]] and {{transclusions}} mean
2008-03-18 09:56 < NotACow> zocky: clearly, though, the namespace does.
2008-03-18 09:57 * quanticle has to head off to a meeting
2008-03-18 09:57 < zocky> now it's the parser that decides those things
2008-03-18 09:57 < NotACow> zocky: ah. i see what you're suggesting.
2008-03-18 09:57 < NotACow> zocky: there should be a way to alter the parser behavior based on what namespace the article is in.
2008-03-18 09:58 < zocky> NotACow, that too, but what I mean here is that there should be a way to alter what parser does with links to certain namespaces
2008-03-18 09:58 < NotACow> zocky: as opposed to the current hardcoded rules
2008-03-18 09:58 < zocky> yes
2008-03-18 09:58 < NotACow> zocky: for category and image.
2008-03-18 09:58 < zocky> and languages
2008-03-18 09:58 < NotACow> zocky: ah, yes, interwiki links
2008-03-18 09:58 < NotACow> zocky: how would this be useful?
2008-03-18 09:59 < zocky> the way I see it, [[:ns:name]] is a hard link, [[ns:name]] is a magic link, and {{ns:name}} is a transclusion
2008-03-18 09:59 < zocky> you can have namespaces that contain images, sounds, numbers, dates, functions, whatever, and magic links need to mean different things for those
2008-03-18 10:00 < akIra|pt> hi, can somebody tell me what language that is -> http://hsb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hlowna_strona
2008-03-18 10:00 < zocky> NotACow, and of course, when you go to the url for a title in such a namespace, you also need to get the appropriate display for that namespace
2008-03-18 10:01 < NotACow> akIra|pt: <language code="hsb" name="Hornjoserbsce">
2008-03-18 10:01 < zocky> upper sorbian
2008-03-18 10:01 < NotACow> zocky: that could be useful
2008-03-18 10:01 < akIra|pt> ok, thanx guys
2008-03-18 10:02 < zocky> NotACow, so {{fn:sind|90}} is "1" , and /wiki/fn:sind?1=90 also shows a page with "1" in it
2008-03-18 10:03 < NotACow> zocky: hm.
2008-03-18 10:03 < zocky> sort of like what special: namespace does now for some things
2008-03-18 10:04 < NotACow> zocky: the idea has merit.
2008-03-18 10:05 < zocky> NotACow, of course it does, my brain is far bigger than my head :)
2008-03-18 10:06 < NotACow> zocky: i'm already generalizing rights management anyway
2008-03-18 10:06 < NotACow> zocky: i don't see why we can't put in something that allows for parser controls to be inherited from the namespace.
2008-03-18 10:06 < zocky> NotACow, I have a silly extension that reads a mediawiki message and parses the rules out of it
2008-03-18 10:07 < NotACow> zocky: could you email me a wrwiteup of this? i'm afraid that i'm busy right now and i'm going to forget most of this and not be able to find it later
2008-03-18 10:08 < zocky> NotACow, i don't have the time to write it down these days... it's been in my head for at least 3 years, so I'm not going to forget. just ask when you get around to thinking about it, and maybe I'll write something up in the meantime
2008-03-18 10:09 < The359> LOL
2008-03-18 10:09 < The359> article in today's newspaper
2008-03-18 10:09 < The359> Now that they've started priting "Fresh By" dates or whatever on eggs
2008-03-18 10:09 < The359> People are wondering how to get the Fresh By dates off so they can decorate Easter Eggs
2008-03-18 10:09 < The359> because apparently the ink shows through if you dye them
2008-03-18 10:09 < NotACow> zocky: ok, fair enuff.
2008-03-18 10:09 < NotACow> The359: haha
2008-03-18 10:10 < NotACow> WE WILL EAT YOUR CHICKENS
2008-03-18 10:10 < ideogram> the last thing I want is to find an easter egg and not know what year it came from
2008-03-18 10:10 < zocky> NotACow, the beauty of the approach is that the parser can be very straigthforward - just one pass to parse {{}}s and [[]]s and ask the appropriate objects what to do with them, and one pass for the formatting
2008-03-18 10:11 < NotACow> zocky: having a "straightforward" mediawiki parser is unlikely in the extreme :)
2008-03-18 10:11 < ideogram> the curse of backward compatibility
2008-03-18 10:12 < zocky> NotACow, and of course, the table syntax needs to die
2008-03-18 10:12 < zocky> it screws up too many other things
2008-03-18 10:12 < NotACow> zocky: eeeeugh, yes
2008-03-18 10:12 < NotACow> zocky: but it's not that easy to just make it die
2008-03-18 10:12 < tonyb486> 10:59 < puplin> tonyb486: lol
2008-03-18 10:13 < tonyb486> er, accident
2008-03-18 10:13 < zocky> NotACow, I know... I imagine some very good parser function that could emulate something like the current syntax, or maybe just screw it and use html
2008-03-18 10:13 < NotACow> zocky: there's a group writing a "proper" parser
2008-03-18 10:14 < NotACow> they have it handling most, but not all, of the mediawiki special cases.
2008-03-18 10:14 < NotACow> mw markup is Fucking Weird.
2008-03-18 10:14 < tonyb486> Does wikipedia have https? My school blocks it on http =[
2008-03-18 10:14 < zocky> NotACow, most of it is actually ok. the real problems are ''', {{{}}} and {|
2008-03-18 10:15 < zocky> i'd get rid of them completely, if I were omnipotent
2008-03-18 10:15 < NotACow> zocky: the handling of single quotes is abhorrent.
2008-03-18 10:15 < NotACow> zocky: for one, it means the language is not in LR(n) for any finite n
2008-03-18 10:15 < zocky> ""bold"" would make just as much sense as '''bold''' and would be easier to parse
2008-03-18 10:15 < zocky> and {{$1}} is just as good as {{{1}}}
2008-03-18 10:16 < zocky> {{arg:1}} would be the canonical way in my syntax
2008-03-18 10:17 < NotACow> zocky: the template syntax is somewhere this side of evil.
2008-03-18 10:17 < zocky> NotACow, nah, it's pure perfection, apart from the arguments
2008-03-18 10:18 < zocky> the only other problem I see is whitespace handling, but that's a wider problem in wiki syntax
2008-03-18 10:19 < Demi> it's very thorny
2008-03-18 10:19 < Demi> as evidenced by the crystallized way it resists enhancements, like the dash thing
2008-03-18 10:19 < zocky> what dash thing?
2008-03-18 10:20 < Demi> the dash enhancement that was implemented, had to be cancelled because of conflicts with tables
2008-03-18 10:20 < Demi> typewriter dashes to typeset dashes
2008-03-18 10:20 < zocky> Demi, tables are evil