freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-18 05:16 < EmoBasset> I have an ancient AIM client I like very much
2008-03-18 05:17 < Rinn> EmoBasset: I used to do that until I ran into compatibility issues with file transfers.
2008-03-18 05:17 < EmoBasset> yea, same, but I switch the few times I have to transfer files
2008-03-18 05:17 < Rinn> I remember not liking Pidgin for some reason, but I can't remember why.
2008-03-18 05:18 < OvrLrd-Q> I hate pidgin
2008-03-18 05:18 < alesan> why. it is very configurable
2008-03-18 05:19 < alesan> even better it's kopete but it is KDE do likely to be linux (unix) only
2008-03-18 05:20 < OvrLrd-Q> something to do with fonts if i remember right
2008-03-18 05:21 < OvrLrd-Q> ah yes, display fonts
2008-03-18 05:21 < OvrLrd-Q> if you want to change the font pidgin uses you have to hack your gtkrc
2008-03-18 05:22 < OvrLrd-Q> so you cant really have per-window/client/etc font settings without hosting all the rest of your gtk apps
2008-03-18 05:23 < OvrLrd-Q> that aside, I have email, I stopped using IM programs a few years back
2008-03-18 05:27 < NotACow> bleeeap
2008-03-18 05:28 < Rinn> I'd just use Hamachi's chat if I didn't have to bother with shared folders to send files.
2008-03-18 06:20 < rebmevoN^> hej
2008-03-18 06:21 < rebmevoN^> /amsg
2008-03-18 06:23 < stefano_> hey
2008-03-18 06:23 < stefano_> can i use an image under GFDL for a blog post? what do i have to do?
2008-03-18 06:23 < jack_spratt> read the license
2008-03-18 06:23 < stefano_> the whole thing?
2008-03-18 06:23 < stefano_> :(
2008-03-18 06:24 < Ral315> An image under GFDL will have some specific requirements.
2008-03-18 06:24 < stefano_> i would probably remake the image faster than i'd read the license
2008-03-18 06:24 < jack_spratt> no, there is a abbreviated version cut down for normal people somwhere, one min ill look
2008-03-18 06:29 < jack_spratt> well i cant find what i was looking for but if you read this you'll be off to a good start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Free_Documentation_License
2008-03-18 06:29 < jack_spratt> (if you havent already)
2008-03-18 06:29 < stefano_> uh
2008-03-18 06:30 < stefano_> sry my operating system is distracting me
2008-03-18 06:30 < stefano_> "update virtualbox-ose even though you will loose all your snapshots"
2008-03-18 06:30 < stefano_> i'll read it, thank you very much jack
2008-03-18 06:30 < jack_spratt> NP, on pclinuxos i didnt lose my installs when i updated virtualbox, out of interest#
2008-03-18 06:31 < stefano_> I'm an ubuntu community member for a year nowa
2008-03-18 06:31 < stefano_> i kind of can't switch :>
2008-03-18 06:32 < stefano_> the article says that the GFDL can only be used for text-based work
2008-03-18 06:33 < stefano_> strange
2008-03-18 06:33 < stefano_> i will just attribute the author and mark the license that should be sufficient
2008-03-18 06:33 < jack_spratt> i think so
2008-03-18 06:34 < jack_spratt> whats holding you back from switching? :)
2008-03-18 06:34 < stefano_> i just love ubuntu
2008-03-18 06:34 < stefano_> i think it's the greatest thing in the software world ever
2008-03-18 06:34 < jack_spratt> oh, i thought you meant switching from ms
2008-03-18 06:34 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 06:34 < stefano_> no wai
2008-03-18 06:34 < stefano_> :>
2008-03-18 06:34 < jack_spratt> yes i like kubuntu a lot, gnome isnt my favorite yet tho
2008-03-18 06:35 < jack_spratt> i like the community spirit etc too
2008-03-18 06:35 < stefano_> the only problem i have with gnome is that developing gnome apps is incredibly hard
2008-03-18 06:35 < stefano_> whereas in kde it's a snap
2008-03-18 06:35 < stefano_> and everytime i join a gnome-developers community they seem to not like me
2008-03-18 06:36 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 06:36 < stefano_> for instance
2008-03-18 06:36 < jack_spratt> yes the social scene can be hard to crack i hear
2008-03-18 06:36 < stefano_> i asked in a forum about Anjuta (gnome's IDE), and mentioned that i never used C but i'm eager to learn it
2008-03-18 06:36 * Werdna hasn't written stuff for linux before
2008-03-18 06:36 < Werdna> except perl
2008-03-18 06:36 < Werdna> perl perl perl perl perl
2008-03-18 06:37 < stefano_> and all of a sudden people started attacking me and suggesting i ought to learn C in Vi and that procedural programming is totally for losers and then my thread got closed and i got kicked
2008-03-18 06:37 < stefano_> i'd really like to learn perl
2008-03-18 06:37 < Werdna> haha
2008-03-18 06:37 < Werdna> you don't learn perl
2008-03-18 06:37 < Werdna> you tinker with it as necessary.
2008-03-18 06:38 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 06:38 < stefano_> i can say that i'm a developer, surely i am, but as long as you're not able to write good C code i guess people hate you
2008-03-18 06:38 < jack_spratt> well don't give up stefano
2008-03-18 06:38 < stefano_> never
2008-03-18 06:38 < stefano_> but
2008-03-18 06:38 < stefano_> i basically missed a small revolution
2008-03-18 06:38 < jack_spratt> small minded people are everywhere, but they cannot stop good free software being developed
2008-03-18 06:39 < jack_spratt> how so
2008-03-18 06:39 < stefano_> i stopped programming about three years ago and now everyone writes threaded code
2008-03-18 06:39 < stefano_> and if you still do procedural programming people don't give a damn about what you did
2008-03-18 06:39 < stefano_> at least thats my impression
2008-03-18 06:39 < stefano_> could be wrong
2008-03-18 06:40 < jack_spratt> oh im sure its not so bad
2008-03-18 06:40 < stefano_> another good example:
2008-03-18 06:40 < jack_spratt> you just need to find a receptive community to help you develop further
2008-03-18 06:42 < stefano_> Programming in C with GTK+: you can not develop object oriented, since its c, but you have to program object oriented because of libg, and there are object that you can call and so forth, i don't even have a clue how to write a working hello world application with C and GTK. and i'm not willing to do twenty years work just to have a clue about gnome
2008-03-18 06:42 < stefano_> i could use python though
2008-03-18 06:43 < stefano_> a receptive community is something hard to find in the linux community so it seems
2008-03-18 06:43 < jack_spratt> well it just feels like itd take 20 years
2008-03-18 06:43 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 06:43 < jack_spratt> im sorry that has been your experience
2008-03-18 06:43 < jack_spratt> im just starting to program, so i cant speak for advenced communities
2008-03-18 06:44 < stefano_> it gets better
2008-03-18 06:44 < jack_spratt> but for instance linux devs are often helpful to me when i ask stupid questions
2008-03-18 06:44 < stefano_> i just got hired from a company that does linux thin client solutions
2008-03-18 06:44 < jack_spratt> and user forums are great
2008-03-18 06:44 < jack_spratt> right
2008-03-18 06:44 < stefano_> and my position is head of gnome development
2008-03-18 06:44 < stefano_> it's a start up and they give me some time
2008-03-18 06:45 < jack_spratt> what a perfect opportunity!
2008-03-18 06:45 < jack_spratt> sounds ideal
2008-03-18 06:45 < stefano_> mh i guess you're right
2008-03-18 06:45 < stefano_> thinking positive :)
2008-03-18 06:45 < jack_spratt> you like programming i take it, you like free software, and you are being paid to wade around a bit and get to know it
2008-03-18 06:46 < jack_spratt> its not as hard as you think im sure
2008-03-18 06:46 < stefano_> it sounds far more exciting if you put it that way
2008-03-18 06:46 < jack_spratt> well it does sound exciting to me
2008-03-18 06:46 < jack_spratt> those sort of jobs are very few
2008-03-18 06:46 < stefano_> if i can't get all this in time i can always fall back to java
2008-03-18 06:47 < jack_spratt> yes, works with everything
2008-03-18 06:47 < jack_spratt> so its not even like you are that pressured seeing as you have a viable backup plan
2008-03-18 06:47 < jack_spratt> :)
2008-03-18 06:48 < stefano_> i try to always have a backup plan
2008-03-18 06:48 < jack_spratt> it pays I find
2008-03-18 06:48 < stefano_> my first payment for this job will be in hardware
2008-03-18 06:48 < stefano_> this is all kind of strange
2008-03-18 06:48 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 06:49 < jack_spratt> so long as thats what you agreed to
2008-03-18 06:49 < jack_spratt> at the start
2008-03-18 06:49 < jack_spratt> what you will develop will remain open source i assume
2008-03-18 06:49 < stefano_> i talked to the company, and mentioned that my server just broke from overheating, just so, and they said if i want, they could "pay" me with a brand new quad processor server if i want
2008-03-18 06:49 < stefano_> because they have those in stock
2008-03-18 06:49 < jack_spratt> very nice
2008-03-18 06:50 < jack_spratt> you need your own personal servers?
2008-03-18 06:50 < stefano_> i havent talked to them about open source, but since i have to use some open source software in order to get it done, i will basically tell them it has to be open source
2008-03-18 06:50 < stefano_> hey having a server is never a bad idea
2008-03-18 06:50 < jack_spratt> ok
2008-03-18 06:50 < jack_spratt> sure
2008-03-18 06:50 < jack_spratt> id like one :)
2008-03-18 06:51 < stefano_> any old pc will do as a start
2008-03-18 06:51 < stefano_> oh my phones ringing, brb
2008-03-18 06:51 < jack_spratt> ok
2008-03-18 06:52 < bumm13> hiya Profoss!
2008-03-18 06:52 < Profoss> hi bumm
2008-03-18 06:52 < Profoss> :)
2008-03-18 06:52 < bumm13> long time no see
2008-03-18 06:52 < stefano_> back again
2008-03-18 06:52 < Profoss> yep, been on a extended wikication
2008-03-18 06:52 < bumm13> ah
2008-03-18 06:54 < Profoss> and after i moved down under, i've kind of started to pick up wikipedia again
2008-03-18 06:55 < jack_spratt> stefano:have you bought books in your effort to come to grips with your new learning
2008-03-18 06:55 < stefano_> "You may not use technical measures to obstruct or control the reading or further copying of the copies you make or distribute." (from GFDL) - that means i can not put something GFDL'd on a site on which you have to log in in order to read it, right?
2008-03-18 06:55 < stefano_> i have tons of books on programming
2008-03-18 06:56 < tonyb486> I'd think you can as long as its free reg and people can still save the image
2008-03-18 06:56 < stefano_> i even have an "ancient" unix book, 600 pages and i read the whole thing, from 1989
2008-03-18 06:56 < jack_spratt> ones relevant to programming inn C with gtk+?
2008-03-18 06:56 < stefano_> no
2008-03-18 06:56 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 06:56 < jack_spratt> thats not ancient
2008-03-18 06:56 < stefano_> tonyb486, i didnt intent do do that :-)
2008-03-18 06:56 < tonyb486> jack_spratt: It's older than me
2008-03-18 06:56 < jack_spratt> surely something from the 60's is required to qualify for that
2008-03-18 06:57 * EmoBasset reads the papal encyclical
2008-03-18 06:57 < stefano_> i just read something from one of the founders of XFree86
2008-03-18 06:57 < stefano_> he says that XFree is obsolete and that the windows model is way better
2008-03-18 06:57 < stefano_> uh WOW
2008-03-18 06:58 * tonyb486 misses reading wikipedia at school
2008-03-18 06:58 < stefano_> tonyb486, i was allowed to do that when i was in school
2008-03-18 06:58 < stefano_> during the a levels
2008-03-18 06:59 < stefano_> i could even cite wp in exams, as long as the cited article was properly cited as well
2008-03-18 06:59 < tonyb486> School site filter says its "pornography, miscellaneous questionable"
2008-03-18 06:59 < jack_spratt> a levels...UK?
2008-03-18 06:59 < stefano_> no, germany
2008-03-18 06:59 < stefano_> it's kind of the same here
2008-03-18 06:59 < bumm13> Profoss: did you say you were moving to AU?
2008-03-18 06:59 < jack_spratt> ok
2008-03-18 06:59 < Profoss> bumm13: close, NZ
2008-03-18 07:00 < bumm13> oh, I see
2008-03-18 07:00 < bumm13> that's quite a move :)
2008-03-18 07:00 < Profoss> mhm, half way around the world, but i like it here :)
2008-03-18 07:00 < bumm13> cool :)
2008-03-18 07:00 < bumm13> lots of sheep ;)
2008-03-18 07:00 < bumm13> mild climate
2008-03-18 07:01 < Profoss> havn't seen a sheep yet, but apperently they are all over :)
2008-03-18 07:01 < stefano_> from where do you move there?
2008-03-18 07:01 < bumm13> are you near Auckland?
2008-03-18 07:01 < Profoss> Wellington
2008-03-18 07:01 < bumm13> oh ok
2008-03-18 07:01 < Profoss> stefano_: Norway
2008-03-18 07:02 < stefano_> thats funny
2008-03-18 07:02 < stefano_> i just talked to someone from norway and he complained about living there
2008-03-18 07:02 < Profoss> about living in NZ or Norway?
2008-03-18 07:03 < stefano_> in norway
2008-03-18 07:03 < stefano_> he said he had some issues with the military
2008-03-18 07:03 < Profoss> hmm, probably the conscription
2008-03-18 07:04 < stefano_> yes, he said something of having to go to jail for six month if he doesnt comply
2008-03-18 07:04 < stefano_> that doesnt sound like fun
2008-03-18 07:05 < Profoss> well, it's basiclly just to go in, and say that you want out, since the only use about 20% of the ones that they call in
2008-03-18 07:05 < Profoss> they
2008-03-18 07:05 < stefano_> i see
2008-03-18 07:06 < stefano_> i had to pull off some tricks myself to avoid having to join the military
2008-03-18 07:06 < stefano_> i founded a company, hired someone, and argued that he would be unemployed if they would pull me in
2008-03-18 07:06 < Profoss> hehe
2008-03-18 07:06 < jack_spratt> my bulgarian friends pay to be certified mentally unfit to aviod it
2008-03-18 07:06 < jack_spratt> (military service that is_
2008-03-18 07:06 < jack_spratt> )
2008-03-18 07:06 < stefano_> when i recieved the letter that said i wouldnt have to go, i felt like david just having defeated goliath
2008-03-18 07:07 < Profoss> i ended up being place at a museum because of my "special skills" (half a year of university studies)
2008-03-18 07:07 < Profoss> placed
2008-03-18 07:07 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 07:07 < stefano_> oh over heare you get tested and people would just take drugs, so that the test was positive, but this doesnt work anymore
2008-03-18 07:07 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 07:08 < jack_spratt> i thinkuk should disband all its armed forces, theyre heanously expensive and do a great deal of environmental damage, just increase euro contributions
2008-03-18 07:08 < jack_spratt> unfortunatly we have such a big arms industry over here i doubt that'll happen
2008-03-18 07:09 < stefano_> i'm all against the military in general
2008-03-18 07:09 < stefano_> as a youth i went to all kinds of demonstrations against it
2008-03-18 07:09 < Octane[WP]> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Octane/Wikipedia_is_a_court_room <-- Hurrah, I've authored an essay.
2008-03-18 07:09 < jack_spratt> i went to a march in london the other day against the occupation, and to bring our troops home
2008-03-18 07:10 < stefano_> whom are they occupying?
2008-03-18 07:11 < jack_spratt> lol nice essay
2008-03-18 07:11 < stefano_> yes, very nice!
2008-03-18 07:11 < jack_spratt> stefano_: you know, the whole afgan/iraq thing
2008-03-18 07:11 < jack_spratt> we still have lots of troops over there
2008-03-18 07:12 < stefano_> ah yes, we do too. a friend of mine is currently in afghanistan
2008-03-18 07:12 < jack_spratt> really?
2008-03-18 07:12 < jack_spratt> we get troops on the pclos forum asking for tech support from over there
2008-03-18 07:13 < stefano_> he is coincidently one of germanies best C&C 3 players
2008-03-18 07:13 < jack_spratt> they need the repos on dvd and stuff due to no internet somtime, apparantly
2008-03-18 07:13 < jack_spratt> lo
2008-03-18 07:13 < jack_spratt> l
2008-03-18 07:13 < jack_spratt> very suitable
2008-03-18 07:13 < jack_spratt> i dont like c+c3, i thought it was pants
2008-03-18 07:13 < jack_spratt> very disappointed
2008-03-18 07:13 < stefano_> when he was about to leave, i spent the night at his place, and we argued loudly for about four hours
2008-03-18 07:14 < jack_spratt> about c and c or the way
2008-03-18 07:14 < jack_spratt> *r
2008-03-18 07:14 < stefano_> about him going to afghanistan
2008-03-18 07:14 < stefano_> and joining the troops in general
2008-03-18 07:14 < jack_spratt> its not like he had a choice i assum,e
2008-03-18 07:14 < stefano_> yes he had
2008-03-18 07:14 < Octane[WP]> [08:12:25] <stefano_> he is coincidently one of germanies best C&C 3 players <-- Seriously?
2008-03-18 07:15 < stefano_> Octane[WP], at least that what i gathered, he playied on a clan, was winning all the time and made lots of money
2008-03-18 07:15 < jack_spratt> did he go for the sightseeing of ancient ruins?
2008-03-18 07:15 < Octane[WP]> Not bad.
2008-03-18 07:15 < stefano_> i think he's a tank grenadier (if that's a word), but he does medical help
2008-03-18 07:15 < Profoss> panzer grenadier?
2008-03-18 07:15 < stefano_> yes
2008-03-18 07:16 < jack_spratt> not much opportunity to use his strategic brain..?
2008-03-18 07:16 < Profoss> hmm, mech. infantery would be the english term i guess
2008-03-18 07:16 < stefano_> i hope so!
2008-03-18 07:16 < jack_spratt> supreme commander/TA, now they are good strat games
2008-03-18 07:16 < Octane[WP]> SupCom I hear is epic.
2008-03-18 07:16 < jack_spratt> love it love it
2008-03-18 07:16 < jack_spratt> very demanding
2008-03-18 07:16 < stefano_> he earns redicolous amounts of money at the military
2008-03-18 07:16 < Profoss> jack_spratt: ah, TA was really good, i spend lots of hours with that
2008-03-18 07:17 < jack_spratt> me too, many days
2008-03-18 07:17 < jack_spratt> great music too
2008-03-18 07:17 < jack_spratt> such a good game, a revolution
2008-03-18 07:17 < stefano_> like 10300€ a month plus lots of bonuses, comes down to about 100k for the whole time (9 months)
2008-03-18 07:17 < jack_spratt> what?
2008-03-18 07:17 < jack_spratt> why?
2008-03-18 07:17 < stefano_> i think because they are desperate for soldiers
2008-03-18 07:17 < Profoss> jack_spratt: the music was really good, i remember playing it with a couple of friends in a LAN, good times, good times
2008-03-18 07:18 < jack_spratt> sup com is just a COMLETE rip of off that
2008-03-18 07:18 < jack_spratt> its just the same game in 3d
2008-03-18 07:18 < stefano_> i still enjoy Dune II on sega megadrive
2008-03-18 07:18 < jack_spratt> with the timyest of improvements, which is fine, because the original was so good and begging to be remade, but nonetheless, the added hardly anyhting
2008-03-18 07:18 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 07:18 < stefano_> seriously
2008-03-18 07:18 < jack_spratt> C+c1 was god
2008-03-18 07:19 < jack_spratt> *good
2008-03-18 07:19 < stefano_> oh yes
2008-03-18 07:19 < stefano_> i remember playing it with a friend over a serial cable
2008-03-18 07:19 < jack_spratt> warcraft1
2008-03-18 07:19 < stefano_> or parallel or whatever it was back then
2008-03-18 07:19 < jack_spratt> warcraft1 is free now, abandonware, in linu repos with dosbox
2008-03-18 07:19 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 07:19 < jack_spratt> yes
2008-03-18 07:19 < Profoss> jack_spratt: cool, i didn't know about sup com, until now
2008-03-18 07:19 < jack_spratt> i remember real 'floppy' b drives
2008-03-18 07:19 < stefano_> Bungie open sourced Marathon II
2008-03-18 07:20 < stefano_> for win/lin/mac
2008-03-18 07:20 < jack_spratt> Profoss: try it, but expect to get thrashed online, its a killer
2008-03-18 07:20 < jack_spratt> stefano_: and simcity is FOSS now too
2008-03-18 07:20 < jack_spratt> after only 25 years! :)
2008-03-18 07:20 < stefano_> yes i heard about it being put on the XO-Laptop
2008-03-18 07:20 < jack_spratt> really?
2008-03-18 07:20 < stefano_> they basially donated it
2008-03-18 07:20 < jack_spratt> its annoting that you cant buy those yet
2008-03-18 07:21 < jack_spratt> i nearly bought an eee recently
2008-03-18 07:21 < Profoss> jack_spratt: nah, it's just for windows, so i guess i'll wait
2008-03-18 07:21 < stefano_> you could buy them, but now you cant anymore
2008-03-18 07:21 < stefano_> but for one year or so you were able to get one with the "give one get one programme" for 399 $us
2008-03-18 07:21 < stefano_> which is more than fair
2008-03-18 07:21 < jack_spratt> Profoss: tell me about it, what can one do about the win game situation? dx 10 100% support in wine is supposed to happen sometime soon, i wish it would hurry up
2008-03-18 07:21 < stefano_> but only in the us or canada, else i wouldve bought one for sure
2008-03-18 07:22 < stefano_> DX10 is horror :(
2008-03-18 07:22 < jack_spratt> stefano_: yes i head about that but never actually saw the opportunity to buy one
2008-03-18 07:22 < Profoss> jack_spratt: well, i don't know if darwine is uptodate
2008-03-18 07:22 < jack_spratt> stefano_: that explains it
2008-03-18 07:22 < Profoss> and i havn't tried it at all accually
2008-03-18 07:22 < jack_spratt> Profoss: your using mac?
2008-03-18 07:22 < Profoss> mhm
2008-03-18 07:23 < jack_spratt> troble is, whist we gamers have grown up, the games essentially havent
2008-03-18 07:23 < jack_spratt> and icreasingly theyre all aimed at kids
2008-03-18 07:23 < jack_spratt> younger and younger kids
2008-03-18 07:23 < jack_spratt> take supcom
2008-03-18 07:23 < jack_spratt> the strategy is intense, very very complicated id say
2008-03-18 07:24 < stefano_> i talked to my older sister about if and when kids should get their own computer
2008-03-18 07:24 < jack_spratt> but the story is a bedtime story
2008-03-18 07:24 < stefano_> i think 10 is the right age
2008-03-18 07:24 < jack_spratt> it insults your intelligence BADLY
2008-03-18 07:24 < stefano_> maybe earlier
2008-03-18 07:24 < jack_spratt> would you cencor the connection?
2008-03-18 07:24 < stefano_> no
2008-03-18 07:24 < jack_spratt> 'parental controls' etc
2008-03-18 07:24 < stefano_> no way
2008-03-18 07:24 < jack_spratt> you see, neither would i
2008-03-18 07:24 < stefano_> but thats a difficult issue
2008-03-18 07:25 < jack_spratt> thats how i used the internet
2008-03-18 07:25 < jack_spratt> it is
2008-03-18 07:25 < jack_spratt> but i dont think that censorship is really the answer
2008-03-18 07:25 < stefano_> i would try my best to tech my kid to use the computer creatively
2008-03-18 07:26 < jack_spratt> there was a guy on the pclos forums very recently, requiring help to block most websites, all downloading, trace all internet usage at all, give no root password or customise linux in any way, all for his poor step son
2008-03-18 07:26 < stefano_> what's the worst case scenario, maybe he sees some porn or bad language, or maybe someone being killed or so, i have watched Clockwork Orange when i was eight and it didnt hurt me
2008-03-18 07:26 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 07:26 < jack_spratt> indeed
2008-03-18 07:26 < stefano_> i was scared to death believe me :>
2008-03-18 07:26 < jack_spratt> you have to try pretty hard to find the real disturbing stuff i think
2008-03-18 07:27 < Octane[WP]> Wow.
2008-03-18 07:27 < jack_spratt> but to a kid a lot more is disturbing eh?
2008-03-18 07:27 < zocky> nah
2008-03-18 07:27 < jack_spratt> look at the rape on nanking, thats pretty disturbing
2008-03-18 07:27 < zocky> lots of stuff that 10-year old kids find funny is very disturbing to adults
2008-03-18 07:27 < jack_spratt> id try and keep that from a child more than a sniff movie
2008-03-18 07:27 < jack_spratt> zocky: lol
2008-03-18 07:27 < stefano_> but i dont think kids would 1) want to watch that 2) be able to find it 3) share it
2008-03-18 07:28 < jack_spratt> neither do i really, but they may do, and if they do they do
2008-03-18 07:28 < stefano_> to quote my mother: "you could get run over by a bus any day"
2008-03-18 07:29 < jack_spratt> when we were 10 at my prep school our ukranian gym techer use to encourage us to view porn saying it was educational and we could do with all the help we could get (!)
2008-03-18 07:29 < stefano_> see i think thats a good thing
2008-03-18 07:29 < jack_spratt> of course there's porn and porn, but as we have said, really bad stuff is hard to find
2008-03-18 07:30 < jack_spratt> i think in most pornography women are respected really, people on the whole dont like to see people suffer, so thats not what the market produces, right?
2008-03-18 07:30 < kenlyric> there was this great story on NPR last year about this filmmaker talking about her parents taking her to see blazing saddles when she was 10,. But at the end of the story she said she'd never take her 10 year old daughter to the same movie.
2008-03-18 07:30 < stefano_> i heard this talk by a porn blogger (on a google techtalk event) and she has a hotline for questions relating sexuality. so she told this story where a girl (18) calls and says her b/f has kissed her, if she could be pregnant
2008-03-18 07:31 < kenlyric> and she didn't even see a little irony in that statement
2008-03-18 07:31 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 07:31 < stefano_> this stuff could be avoided if parents would be more liberal with sexuallity, and i think exposing the full internet to a child can help a big deal
2008-03-18 07:31 < kenlyric> she was like "times are different". No, bitch, you just want your kid to grow up in a bubble and deny her any kind of joy.
2008-03-18 07:31 < zocky> me and my schoolmates looked at porn magazines a lot when we were 6-7
2008-03-18 07:31 < jack_spratt> well, you know, sexuality and children is very complicated i think
2008-03-18 07:31 < zocky> the world did not end
2008-03-18 07:32 < stefano_> kenlyric, thats brilliant
2008-03-18 07:32 < jack_spratt> zocky: looking back, was it mild or bad porn you saw?
2008-03-18 07:32 < kenlyric> it wouldn't have been quite so funny except that seeing blazing saddles was a watershed moment in her life and made her want to be a filmmaker
2008-03-18 07:32 < kenlyric> and she's going to deny those experiences to her own child
2008-03-18 07:32 < jack_spratt> lol
2008-03-18 07:32 < jack_spratt> thats hilarious
2008-03-18 07:33 < kenlyric> maybe her daughter can make bubbleboy 2
2008-03-18 07:33 < zocky> jack_spratt, there was no real weird stuff, but there was definitely penetration, oral sex, anal sex, etc.
2008-03-18 07:33 < jack_spratt> i probably started about 9
2008-03-18 07:34 < jack_spratt> we all got our laptops conficated by the school eventually
2008-03-18 07:34 < stefano_> i would not encourage my child to watch porn though
2008-03-18 07:34 < Ral315> Haha
2008-03-18 07:34 < stefano_> that goes a little too far i thunk
2008-03-18 07:34 < stefano_> think
2008-03-18 07:34 < jack_spratt> not encourage i dont hink
2008-03-18 07:34 < jack_spratt> *think
2008-03-18 07:34 < kenlyric> i have coworkers who have 10-11 year old girls who can't watch movies where anything bad happens because it makes them hysterical. Because there parents don't let them watch anything where anything bad happens.
2008-03-18 07:34 < jack_spratt> but you cant just restrict what you want very easily
2008-03-18 07:34 < stefano_> but i won't mind if they do, at least they know what's going on when that experienced older girl takes them home after the cinema hehe
2008-03-18 07:34 < zocky> my friend had an uncle who worked in italy, and brought home italian porn magazines, and my friend would still one occasionally and bring it to school (our porn magazines were very soft at the time)
2008-03-18 07:34 < kenlyric> everyone needs a little bambi's mom or simba's dad in their childhood.
2008-03-18 07:35 < jack_spratt> i remember being very scared of superman 3 where he is in a car crusher, that gave me nightmares, that and who killed roger rabbit
2008-03-18 07:35 < Doc_glasgow> It is amazing what you can learn on wikipedia!
2008-03-18 07:35 < Doc_glasgow> "In Nairobi and Mombasa, while massage parlours are opening at a very high rate, 70% of these are actually brothels. Their telephone numbers are advertised in many daily newspapers. A complete listing is also found at http://kenyaraha.net .If potential customers ask, "Are there extra services?", the employee will inform them if this is the case. Such establishments usually charge around 25...
2008-03-18 07:35 < Doc_glasgow> ...US dollars per hour massage, and 50 US dollars with full service."
2008-03-18 07:35 < jack_spratt> indeed
2008-03-18 07:36 < jack_spratt> who knew?
2008-03-18 07:36 < bumm13> *steal ;)
2008-03-18 07:36 < Doc_glasgow> "Since massage parlors are commonly synonymous with prostitution in many cities, customers are advised to follow a set of rules of etiquette. Making sexual comments out in the open to a massage therapist can be considered sexual harassment or solicitation of prostitution. Even if these parlors offer sexual services, it likely won't be disclosed until behind closed doors."
2008-03-18 07:36 < zocky> Doc_glasgow, that information is useless without the names and addresses of quality establishments and fair use pictures of the best masseuses
2008-03-18 07:36 < Ral315> Responsible sexuality needs to be taught, though.
2008-03-18 07:36 < jack_spratt> absolutely
2008-03-18 07:36 < Doc_glasgow> I think [[Massage parlor]] may need cleaning up
2008-03-18 07:37 < Ral315> My father was uncomfortable, so I think we had one talk on sex, and the rest I learned from the Internet.
2008-03-18 07:37 < jack_spratt> sexual ethics is an important subject i think
2008-03-18 07:37 < Ral315> Not the best place to learn this from.
2008-03-18 07:37 < jack_spratt> no
2008-03-18 07:37 < stefano_> i had a discussion about wikipedia a week ago. a friend told me he'd donated 200€ to doctors without borders, i said how great that is, when he asked me if i'm into charity i told him i wrote fourty articles on wikipedia and edit it daily. you shouldve seen the look on his face :-) but i explained it and he got the message
2008-03-18 07:38 < stefano_> knowledge is the most valuable good these days
2008-03-18 07:38 < jack_spratt> my dad is a doctor with 8 postgrad qualifications, i keep trying to get him to write and improve articles
2008-03-18 07:38 < jack_spratt> but he isnt very keen
2008-03-18 07:38 < ideogram> I'd rather donate money to doctors without borders
2008-03-18 07:38 < stefano_> I'd rather do both
2008-03-18 07:38 < jack_spratt> id rather donate to the EFF
2008-03-18 07:39 < jack_spratt> so places like wikipedia stick around
2008-03-18 07:39 < stefano_> but i don't have much anyways, i try to think i'm giving as much as possible
2008-03-18 07:39 < jack_spratt> its the EFF i expect to be defending the gfdl someday
2008-03-18 07:39 < ideogram> wikipedia's copyright situation is a mess
2008-03-18 07:39 < jack_spratt> i usually donate about $20
2008-03-18 07:39 < stefano_> isnt the wikipedia going Creative Commons?
2008-03-18 07:39 < Ral315> Not really.
2008-03-18 07:40 < jack_spratt> i donated to small groups usually who i feel need it the most, like sites that are going to close or something
2008-03-18 07:40 < ideogram> unfortunately the existing content can't be relicensed
2008-03-18 07:40 < stefano_> mh. heard leo laporte saying that the other day
2008-03-18 07:40 < Ral315> What it is is that Wikimedia's working with Creative Commons to hopefully make Creative Commons much more compatible with GFDL.
2008-03-18 07:40 < stefano_> i don't like the GFDL at all
2008-03-18 07:40 < Ral315> We couldn't make it Creative Commons without nearly every major contributor relicensing their work as such.
2008-03-18 07:40 < jack_spratt> so what happens to all existing content?
2008-03-18 07:41 < ideogram> wikipedia has two choices: a) keep going and hope nobody sues, or b) throw away everything and start over
2008-03-18 07:41 < zocky> i wouldn't give any money to doctors without frontiers
2008-03-18 07:41 < stefano_> i think it's way to complicated for normal people and it's scary. and to be scary is the last thing wp need
2008-03-18 07:41 < stefano_> s
2008-03-18 07:41 < zocky> which may be a bit unfair on my side, since kouchner is no longer their chief
2008-03-18 07:41 < ideogram> technically you are not allowed to print out anything from wikipedia without about 50 pages of license text
2008-03-18 07:41 < jack_spratt> why is wikiepdia vulnerable to people suing?
2008-03-18 07:41 < zocky> but, it's still connected enough to him that I wouldn't want anything to do with it
2008-03-18 07:42 < ideogram> the copyright situation is in violation of existing law
2008-03-18 07:42 < jack_spratt> US law?
2008-03-18 07:42 < jack_spratt> how?
2008-03-18 07:42 < ideogram> international law
2008-03-18 07:42 < bumm13> international law, heh
2008-03-18 07:42 < ideogram> I'm not familiar with the details but I trust the people who informed me of this
2008-03-18 07:42 < bumm13> so you don't really know?
2008-03-18 07:42 < stefano_> zocky, they say that everybody makes a difference, every 20$ donation counts and all that. but the fact of the matter is: a vast amount of donated money is wasted. sad but true.
2008-03-18 07:42 < ideogram> apparently informed wikipedians know this as well
2008-03-18 07:43 < ideogram> I'm not here to prove what I know or don't know to you
2008-03-18 07:43 < jack_spratt> but how is it in violation?
2008-03-18 07:43 < ideogram> believe what you want
2008-03-18 07:43 < jack_spratt> sure
2008-03-18 07:43 < jack_spratt> im interested, im not challenging anyhting
2008-03-18 07:43 < ideogram> yes, ok, but some here are
2008-03-18 07:43 < jack_spratt> it sounds serious
2008-03-18 07:43 < ideogram> yes, the people I spoke to believe it will kill wikipedia
2008-03-18 07:43 < ideogram> when people realize you are not actually contributing to something that is likely to survive
2008-03-18 07:43 < jack_spratt> is that part of the reason that one of the founders left a while back?
2008-03-18 07:43 < stefano_> i don't think wikipedia is going to be killed by anything
2008-03-18 07:44 < ideogram> no, that was different
2008-03-18 07:44 < jack_spratt> oh
2008-03-18 07:44 < ideogram> that was a difference of opinion over how wikipedia treats experts
2008-03-18 07:44 < ideogram> which is also a serious issue BTW
2008-03-18 07:44 < zocky> stefano_, my point is, their former chief is now a politician who favors "liberal intervention", which is a big cause of need for charity doctors
2008-03-18 07:44 < jack_spratt> what was that difference of opinion?
2008-03-18 07:44 < ideogram> wikipedia has a lot of serious issues, due to the fast growth
2008-03-18 07:44 < stefano_> zocky, oh my word i didnt know that
2008-03-18 07:45 < stefano_> how do you think about making everything public domain?
2008-03-18 07:45 < ideogram> wikipedia as it is is very unfriendly to experts because they are not accorded any special respect for their expertiese, which they are used to in other parts of life
2008-03-18 07:45 < stefano_> (apart from the fact that current content cannot be pd)
2008-03-18 07:45 < ideogram> well, of course that is the "throw everything away and start over" option
2008-03-18 07:45 < stefano_> i don't think thats an option
2008-03-18 07:45 < jack_spratt> ideogram: yes, there can be no attribution of articles to individuals can there
2008-03-18 07:45 < stefano_> people would just replicate the content
2008-03-18 07:45 < ideogram> whatever license you choose after that is kind of a lesser issue
2008-03-18 07:46 < stefano_> that would be the worst copytigh fight ever
2008-03-18 07:46 < ideogram> yes you can't really tell when people cut and paste where the material is coming from or what copyright status it really has
2008-03-18 07:46 < ideogram> yes it is extremely difficult to trace authorship of wiki articles, it is a mismatch between the wiki model and copyright law
2008-03-18 07:47 < ideogram> of course copyright law is outdated but it's not going to change for wikipedia's convenience
2008-03-18 07:47 < jack_spratt> it is a problem because it means that more scholarly articles dont appear
2008-03-18 07:47 < ideogram> despite what some of the more idealistic might have imagined
2008-03-18 07:47 < ideogram> yes people who have special expertise are accustomed to being recognized for their work
2008-03-18 07:47 < stefano_> i think now that the user count on wp has grown so vastly, it's acceptance by the teaching authority has to grow, in order for that to happen the wikipedia mustn't have any copyright insecurities whatsoever
2008-03-18 07:47 < ideogram> wikipedia's model assumes no one wants recognition
2008-03-18 07:47 < jack_spratt> bah, copyright is irrelevant to the end user these days, the P2P revolution happened years ago
2008-03-18 07:48 < ideogram> no serious educator accepts wikipedia as a source
2008-03-18 07:48 < jack_spratt> but thats mainly because the content isnt there
2008-03-18 07:48 < jack_spratt> IMO
2008-03-18 07:48 < stefano_> jack_spratt, the advantage of us is that nobody offers a better encyclopedia, (comparing wp to the music industrie)
2008-03-18 07:48 < stefano_> s/ie/y
2008-03-18 07:48 < ideogram> no, wikipedia has reliability issues
2008-03-18 07:48 < ideogram> of course there are powerful industry associations trying to sue pirates
2008-03-18 07:49 < jack_spratt> constancy of content
2008-03-18 07:49 < ideogram> although they will eventually lose
2008-03-18 07:49 < stefano_> ideogram, werenÄt there plans to do a "approved article" thing?
2008-03-18 07:49 < ideogram> do you mean stable versions?
2008-03-18 07:49 < jack_spratt> the EU just invested many millions in a new bittorrent technology
2008-03-18 07:49 < stefano_> yes that was it
2008-03-18 07:49 < kenlyric> no serious educator accepts an encyclopedia as a source, period.
2008-03-18 07:49 < ideogram> many people think this will solve a lot of wikipedia's problems, I am not confident
2008-03-18 07:49 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: fair point, but thats not entirely the case
2008-03-18 07:49 < ideogram> basically there is a fundamental tradeoff between wikipedia's "anyone can edit" model and keeping out undesirable edits
2008-03-18 07:49 < kenlyric> entirely
2008-03-18 07:50 < ideogram> you can't have both
2008-03-18 07:50 < stefano_> people still have the idiom that information has to cost a fortune in order to be accurate
2008-03-18 07:50 < kenlyric> if they do, they're not a serious educator
2008-03-18 07:50 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: maybe you would say that these are corruptions of the term encyclopedia, but look at the routledge encyclopedia of philosophy,
2008-03-18 07:50 < ideogram> and stable versions inevitably moves wikipedia away from the anyone-can-edit model
2008-03-18 07:50 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: what about stanford encyclopedia of philosophy
2008-03-18 07:50 < stefano_> in germany for example there is the "Brockhaus", it's an encyclopedia in 24 bands, and every year there is a new one. It costs round about 2000€ for the whole thing
2008-03-18 07:50 < ideogram> wikipedia has a lot of problems, and I'm not sure what is going to kill it first
2008-03-18 07:50 < ideogram> for example, the exponential growth of new users is ending
2008-03-18 07:51 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: those are two that are widely used, and reliable, and used by all sorts of people in higher education
2008-03-18 07:51 < zocky> stefano_, didn't that just give up this year?
2008-03-18 07:51 < kenlyric> bah. corruption
2008-03-18 07:51 < stefano_> zocky, i don't know, did it?
2008-03-18 07:51 < kenlyric> corruption I say!
2008-03-18 07:51 < arcimboldo_> stefano_: just recently the Brockhaus announced that it will give up its printed edition.
2008-03-18 07:51 < stefano_> ow
2008-03-18 07:51 < stefano_> wow
2008-03-18 07:52 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: lol
2008-03-18 07:52 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: they are not normal 'encyclopedias' i grant you
2008-03-18 07:52 < stefano_> zocky, arcimboldo_, the german article says that the authors say the 21. "COULD BE" the last issue
2008-03-18 07:52 < stefano_> printed that is
2008-03-18 07:53 < zocky> stefano_, anyway, they'd be stupid to print another edition
2008-03-18 07:53 < stefano_> i agree
2008-03-18 07:53 < zocky> nobody wants a paper encyclopedia anymore
2008-03-18 07:53 < arcimboldo_> They also announced releasing most of their staff.
2008-03-18 07:53 < jack_spratt> surely there need not be necessarily a clash between the anyone can contribute and static content models
2008-03-18 07:53 < zocky> it does give you some warm an fuzzy feeling, but it's simply inferior to electronic forms
2008-03-18 07:53 < arcimboldo_> I find it sad though, this encyclopedia hat a lot of reputation and a very long tradition.
2008-03-18 07:53 < stefano_> if people would learn how to do their research, the inacuracy of wp wouldnt be a problem at all
2008-03-18 07:54 < jack_spratt> bit like the encyclopedia britannica
2008-03-18 07:54 < ideogram> if anyone can contribute then you get vandalism, spam, and low quality contributions
2008-03-18 07:54 < jack_spratt> we got that in 20 something volumes at home
2008-03-18 07:54 < kenlyric> their staff can edit wikipedia..
2008-03-18 07:54 < stefano_> æ :>
2008-03-18 07:54 < arcimboldo_> Wikipedia had often claimed that it was not a real competition for the classical printed encyclopediae since it is targeted at a new audience.
2008-03-18 07:54 < zocky> look at ti t
2008-03-18 07:54 < zocky> bah
2008-03-18 07:54 < jack_spratt> ideogram: but that doesnt matter necessarily
2008-03-18 07:54 < ideogram> the corollary is that you must be able to clean up after such people
2008-03-18 07:54 < stefano_> wikipedia ought to by off brockhaus and encyclopædia britannica
2008-03-18 07:54 < ideogram> which is a lot of work
2008-03-18 07:54 < jack_spratt> ideogram: people dont have to look at those bad contribs, why cant it be simply a structered anyone can contrib model
2008-03-18 07:54 < ideogram> which is what stable versions is supposed is supposed to solve
2008-03-18 07:55 < zocky> look at it this way: britannica had a much smaller amount of reliable text 7 years after it started than wikipedia does
2008-03-18 07:55 < jack_spratt> stefano_: if only
2008-03-18 07:55 < zocky> it was probably less reliable overall, too
2008-03-18 07:55 < ideogram> what does it mean that anyone can contribute if no one can see my contributions until they are approved?
2008-03-18 07:55 < kenlyric> zocky: excellent point
2008-03-18 07:55 < stefano_> imagine if encyclopædia britannica, brockhaus and others would _donate_ their content to wikipedia. wow
2008-03-18 07:55 < ideogram> wikipedia attracted a lot of interest because it was so rewarding to know you could instantly have your contributions seen by the world
2008-03-18 07:55 < ideogram> that was the whole appeal
2008-03-18 07:55 < kenlyric> DING
2008-03-18 07:55 < ideogram> the more you take that away the more you diminish the appeal
2008-03-18 07:55 < zocky> stefano_, what I think is more likely is that we buy them
2008-03-18 07:55 < stefano_> still is
2008-03-18 07:56 < kenlyric> efame
2008-03-18 07:56 < ideogram> you can't have one without the other
2008-03-18 07:56 < jack_spratt> ideogram:they dont necessarily have to be approved, just structured, but as you say i suppose any structuring will obscure certain content in favour of others and then the ideal is lost to an extent
2008-03-18 07:56 < stefano_> zocky, it would be truly brilliant, wouldnt it
2008-03-18 07:56 < Ral315> zocky: They're a bit beyond our price range at this point.
2008-03-18 07:56 < ideogram> they are two sides of the same coin
2008-03-18 07:57 < zocky> Ral315, maybe, but not for long
2008-03-18 07:57 < ideogram> wikiipedia is based on contradictory ideals
2008-03-18 07:57 < ideogram> and choices have to be made
2008-03-18 07:57 < jack_spratt> ideogram: i suppose any attempt to have articles side by side causes lack of unity and clarity for casual browsers
2008-03-18 07:57 < zocky> Ral315, if not now, they'll be losing money in a year or two, and the owners will be looking to get rid of them
2008-03-18 07:57 < ideogram> indeed, the whole concept of recording human knowledge assumes that there is only one version of human knowledge
2008-03-18 07:57 < ideogram> only an objectivist could believe this
2008-03-18 07:57 < stefano_> well
2008-03-18 07:57 < zocky> Ral315, with the right kind of donors, it could be done
2008-03-18 07:57 < stefano_> the wp can adept to this
2008-03-18 07:58 < Ral315> zocky: Dunno; it's owned by a billionaire who I think would keep it going just for the prestige.
2008-03-18 07:58 < jack_spratt> ideogram: thats not so, trying to record human knokwledge doesn not necessarily assume single universal truths
2008-03-18 07:58 < ideogram> just look at the neverending israeli-palestinian edit wars for proof
2008-03-18 07:58 < jack_spratt> scientific journals exist to store knowledege but do not assume the truth of one over another
2008-03-18 07:58 < stefano_> every story has four sides to it: yours, the others, the trush and what really happend
2008-03-18 07:59 < stefano_> was that karl popper? i dont remember
2008-03-18 07:59 < jack_spratt> stefano_: lol
2008-03-18 07:59 < zocky> ideogram, that has nothing to do with objectivism
2008-03-18 07:59 < ideogram> wikipedia does not provide any means for determining what version gets published other than consensus
2008-03-18 07:59 < ideogram> and consensus is never final
2008-03-18 07:59 < jack_spratt> which means it is democratic at least
2008-03-18 07:59 < zocky> look at the media about the israeli-palestinian conflict
2008-03-18 07:59 < jack_spratt> even if that means being democratic in its inaccuracy
2008-03-18 07:59 < kenlyric> that's essentially how all encyclopedias choose
2008-03-18 07:59 < ideogram> wikipedia does not provide multiple versions of an entry, like fred bauder's sympathetic-point-of-view policy tries to promote
2008-03-18 07:59 < jack_spratt> indeed
2008-03-18 07:59 < zocky> they're totally biased in their basic assumptions, both in the arab world and in the west
2008-03-18 08:00 < stefano_> jack_spratt, there really is a well written philosophically accurate description of this. i have a book in which it's covered, its not a joke line but a philosophical discussion
2008-03-18 08:00 < kenlyric> which is why encyclopedias aren't supposed to contain all human knowledge
2008-03-18 08:00 < kenlyric> just summarize it
2008-03-18 08:00 < zocky> wikipedia can't fix that, and looking to wikipedia for reliable information about stuff like that is not a good idea
2008-03-18 08:00 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: what?
2008-03-18 08:00 < jack_spratt> kenlyric: that doesnt make sense to me, to jsut summarise and not contain it
2008-03-18 08:00 < stefano_> make as much knowledge available to every human on the planet is what i call it when i explain it to someone
2008-03-18 08:01 < ideogram> wikipedia assumes there is a neutral point of view
2008-03-18 08:01 < kenlyric> how can it not make sense
2008-03-18 08:01 < kenlyric> that's what an encyclopedia does
2008-03-18 08:01 < stefano_> ideogram, yes but wikipedia also allows an article to say "there are diffent views on that and those are ..."
2008-03-18 08:01 < kenlyric> the article on Stephen King's IT is not actually the complete text of the novel
2008-03-18 08:01 < kenlyric> it's a summary and analysis (and idiotic trivia)
2008-03-18 08:01 < ideogram> there are very subtle ways to write an article to favor some views over others
2008-03-18 08:02 < jack_spratt> stefano_: but that is not actually wikipedias aim is it, as i was discussing earlier, stuff has to remain 'accessible' so complex things may not be detailed
2008-03-18 08:02 < ideogram> people who study textual analysis know all sorts of tricks
2008-03-18 08:02 < kenlyric> ditto for Alice in Wonderland, if you were going to make a copyright comment
2008-03-18 08:02 < ideogram> only naive wikipedia users think these tricks can be avoided
2008-03-18 08:02 < stefano_> yes it's very difficult to summarise human knowledge and not getting to complicated. its a paradox that can't be solved
2008-03-18 08:02 < kenlyric> it's a never ending proccess
2008-03-18 08:03 < jack_spratt> we seem obsessed with blocks and impossibility of progression here
2008-03-18 08:03 < kenlyric> print encyclopedias had physical limitations that put the pressure on brevity.
2008-03-18 08:03 < stefano_> i don't believe there is anything that can be called a "status". everything is a process
2008-03-18 08:03 < zocky> that's why you have branching articles
2008-03-18 08:03 < jack_spratt> I dont see that this is the case
2008-03-18 08:03 < zocky> so you can summarize at different levels
2008-03-18 08:04 < jack_spratt> you can use the word summarise as you like, but according to what you are propounding it seems to me as if all undergraduate degrees are mere summaries and include no 'knowledge'
2008-03-18 08:04 < stefano_> so, you have to think about people with barely any knowledege at all, people who want to use wp for their doctors exam, people who want accurate information and the fact that there is no accurate information possible in the first place. all at the same time. one can say, the wikipedia has a difficult path to go
2008-03-18 08:05 < ideogram> I would say the largest threat is the drying up of new editors
2008-03-18 08:05 < jack_spratt> "d the fact that there is no accurate information possible in the first place"
2008-03-18 08:05 < jack_spratt> that is simply not the cas
2008-03-18 08:05 < ideogram> without a thriving community wikipedia cannot be maintained
2008-03-18 08:05 < quanticle> jack_spratt: Don't let the fact that he's correct bias you ;)
2008-03-18 08:06 < jack_spratt> e
2008-03-18 08:06 < quanticle> jack_spratt: I've found that pretty much all undergrad degrees at my university, at least are summaries and there's very little allowance made for new research by undergrads.
2008-03-18 08:06 < stefano_> jack_spratt, well, at least you cant guarantee that what you read there is accurate. i was a little meta with that sentence. there is accurate information possible, but its hard to maintain any level of accuracy
2008-03-18 08:07 < ideogram> new research is what gets you a PhD, it is the definition
2008-03-18 08:07 < jack_spratt> quanticle:absolutely, who mentioned research - im jsut trying to establish that knowledge is aquired
2008-03-18 08:07 < kenlyric> particularly the difference between accuarte and inaccurate information is difficult to see.
2008-03-18 08:07 < ideogram> new research is not allowed on Wikipedia, of course
2008-03-18 08:07 < kenlyric> but that's true of all research sources.
2008-03-18 08:07 < zocky> the original problem, IMHO, is the pervasive obsession with "reader experience", which causes people to try to present their articles as finished works. one symptom is the missing red links, the other is the obsession with what articles say at this moment
2008-03-18 08:07 < quanticle> jack_spratt: Just because the knowledge is new *to you* does not mean the knowledge is new.
2008-03-18 08:08 < jack_spratt> quanticle: im not saying its new knowledge, just that its knowledge. i dont consider it contraversial to say that at undergraduate degree level knowledge is obtained.
2008-03-18 08:08 < zocky> it starts from the main page on
2008-03-18 08:08 < jack_spratt> quanticle: and if that is knowledge, then what WP contains and imparts is also knowledge
2008-03-18 08:09 < kenlyric> what's this have to do with an encyclopedia being a summary of knowledge and not the source of knowledge?
2008-03-18 08:09 < kenlyric> google is the source of the all knowledge
2008-03-18 08:09 < jack_spratt> we keep teetering on the edge of epistemological debate here but i dont think anyone really wants to got there