freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-14 18:58 < NotACow> shimgray: [[Temple Hardy]] has two "References" sections
2008-03-14 18:58 < ShakespeareFan00> geniice: Not to mention new usage restrictions
2008-03-14 18:58 < gwern> http://stats.grok.se/en/200803/Hiroshige <-- I find myself wondering why there were no viewers on 2 days
2008-03-14 18:59 < shimgray> That's someone being silly.
2008-03-14 18:59 < Jasca_Ducato> Are there any users here who can give ops responisibilty on IRC channels?
2008-03-14 18:59 < shimgray> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temple_Hardy&diff=160468617&oldid=144470665
2008-03-14 18:59 < shimgray> bloody bot-assisted "tidying"
2008-03-14 18:59 < Lubaf> Damn.
2008-03-14 18:59 < Lubaf> I has a LOLCat fic for Raul.
2008-03-14 19:00 < geniice> ShakespeareFan00 1probably more worried about condition than I am and 2) probably more worried about getting a complete set than am
2008-03-14 19:00 < Lubaf> But he's not here.
2008-03-14 19:00 < ShakespeareFan00> geniice: True
2008-03-14 19:00 < geniice> ShakespeareFan00 for example there is a little point in aquireing many scotish ones because our coverage of scotish landmarks is so low
2008-03-14 19:00 < ShakespeareFan00> BTW Do you think it's worth putting out a general call for OS sheet scans on commons?
2008-03-14 19:00 < Lubaf> That line should be in all caps, I suppose.
2008-03-14 19:00 < Lubaf> "I HAS A LOLCAT FIC FOR RAUL"
2008-03-14 19:00 < Lubaf> Ah well.
2008-03-14 19:01 < Lubaf> I can send him the link when next he's on.
2008-03-14 19:01 < shimgray> gwern: There was some kind of glitch on Mar 3/4
2008-03-14 19:01 < shimgray> it appears elsewhere, too
2008-03-14 19:01 < gwern> http://stats.grok.se/en/200803/wikileaks <-- so the controversy was only good for 10x its normal traffic?
2008-03-14 19:01 < gwern> shimgray: oh. that'd explain it
2008-03-14 19:01 < shimgray> http://stats.grok.se/en/200802/wikileaks - look at the 19th!
2008-03-14 19:01 < Juliancolton> What a boring TFA
2008-03-14 19:01 < ShakespeareFan00> geniice: Can you drop into #Wikimedia-commons
2008-03-14 19:01 < shimgray> from 100-300 per day to 18k then 80k!
2008-03-14 19:02 < Nihiltres> nonsense, TFA is awesome today
2008-03-14 19:02 < gwern> shimgray: guess I was wrong abtou the 10x thing then
2008-03-14 19:02 < Nihiltres> or wait, past midnight UTC
2008-03-14 19:02 < Nihiltres> new one
2008-03-14 19:02 < Juliancolton> Yea, pretty boring
2008-03-14 19:02 < shimgray> gwern: you were seeing a secondary spike, I think
2008-03-14 19:02 < shimgray> remember to check which month you're on :-)
2008-03-14 19:02 < Nihiltres> yeah, pretty boring
2008-03-14 19:02 < Juliancolton> Oxygen was pretty cool
2008-03-14 19:02 < Nihiltres> yeah
2008-03-14 19:03 < gwern> http://stats.grok.se/en/200802/INTEGRITY-178B <-- oo wow 7 people
2008-03-14 19:04 < gwern> http://stats.grok.se/en/200803/Musashi_Miyamoto <-- only 104 hits? I'm surprised, so my obscure artist [[hiroshige]] gets 8x the hits of the famous swordsman?
2008-03-14 19:05 < geniice> Should we include the name of the model in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Faith_%28album%29 ?(NSFW)
2008-03-14 19:06 < Xihix> Question.
2008-03-14 19:06 < Xihix> Is the AoTD related at all to it being L. Ron Hubbard's birthday?
2008-03-14 19:06 < gwern> 'The model initially requested a horse as a fee but was instead paid £40.[1]'
2008-03-14 19:06 < geniice> Xihix no
2008-03-14 19:06 < gwern> geniice: is it even legal?
2008-03-14 19:07 < Xihix> Geniice, really?
2008-03-14 19:07 < geniice> gwern year the reason for the slightly clumsy wording there is that I was dodgeing around the name
2008-03-14 19:07 < Xihix> date seems too planned...
2008-03-14 19:08 < geniice> Xihix ask User:Raul654
2008-03-14 19:08 < geniice> gwern it is legal yes
2008-03-14 19:08 < gwern> geniice: then I don't see why not
2008-03-14 19:09 < geniice> gwern worried that someone will try and wack me with BLP or the like. I've got a source though
2008-03-14 19:09 < shimgray> on the other hand, the name doesn't really add anything to the article, so why bother?
2008-03-14 19:10 < gwern> geniice: deal with it as it comes
2008-03-14 19:11 < geniice> hmmm
2008-03-14 19:11 < gwern> shimgray: you can argue that about anything; everything is made of little details which at enough resolution doesn't really add anything
2008-03-14 19:11 < gwern> I think knowing the names of people adds to the article, but I'm just crazy that way
2008-03-14 19:12 < shimgray> gwern: Yes and no (but I don't really have the enthusiasm or the awakeness to argue this one); I think it's tangential and of no real consequence. I mean, we consider it perfectly normal to not mention the names of models used for most forms of cover art.
2008-03-14 19:13 < gwern> shimgray: the article seems to consider the model/cover art something of interest
2008-03-14 19:13 < Cyrius> shimgray: yeah, but the model selection here is controversial
2008-03-14 19:13 < gwern> which I presume reflects the interest of people in general
2008-03-14 19:13 < geniice> most of the time we don't know the names
2008-03-14 19:14 < Cyrius> btw, that Temple Hardy article really does seem rather obscure
2008-03-14 19:14 < Cyrius> not even well-linked to
2008-03-14 19:16 < shimgray> Cyrius: that's kind of my point. he's exceptionally obscure; I had to research him when tracing the provenance of a museum exhibit (long story) and figured I may as well knock out an article for the benefit of anyone else who later did the same
2008-03-14 19:17 < shimgray> (I mean, by our arbitrary standards he does seem notable enough to remain on file. I've done a couple of his contemporaries; they're actually quite interesting articles to work on, all sorts of odd primary sources to pick at)
2008-03-14 19:18 < shimgray> (there was an entire encyclopedic dictionary of men like him, but it was written c. 1830 and omitted anyone who'd died before then)
2008-03-14 19:18 < quanticle> Cyrius: Question, can we cite books and other offline primary sources on Wikipedia?
2008-03-14 19:18 < Cyrius> quanticle: uh, yeah
2008-03-14 19:18 < shimgray> please god, yes
2008-03-14 19:19 < quanticle> Thought so. Just needed confirmation
2008-03-14 19:19 < quanticle> Thanks
2008-03-14 19:19 < pengo> quanticle: but generally preferred are citations from youtube comments
2008-03-14 19:20 < geniice> template:citebook
2008-03-14 19:20 < shimgray> especially the ones with more than four exclamation marks per word!
2008-03-14 19:20 < geniice> shimgray run into simular situations with the more obscure canals
2008-03-14 19:21 < Cyrius> as long as it's not five
2008-03-14 19:21 < Cyrius> five is underpants on the head time
2008-03-14 19:21 < geniice> you dig through Hadfield then grab whatever other sources you can find
2008-03-14 19:32 < ShakespeareFan00> geniice: You were aware the edition of Bradshaw's Canal Guide Google Books had?
2008-03-14 19:33 < ShakespeareFan00> (and which on-off is being translated to wikisource?)
2008-03-14 19:33 < geniice> Google has various books releated to canals
2008-03-14 19:35 < th1> hi, can anyone fix [[Talk:Anders_Fogh_Rasmussen]] so the table of content comes below the "gay" debate? I can't immediately figure out what is causing this..
2008-03-14 19:35 < th1> I mean TOC should be above the "gay" debate..
2008-03-14 19:36 < Cyrius> th1: add a heading above the gay stuff
2008-03-14 19:36 < th1> thanks
2008-03-14 19:36 < Cyrius> the TOC appears above the first heading
2008-03-14 19:36 < Cyrius> unless told otherwise, but that's irrelevant
2008-03-14 19:37 < th1> ok
2008-03-14 19:37 < th1> cheers :)
2008-03-14 19:37 < ShakespeareFan00> Genice: Do you have a list?
2008-03-14 19:37 < th1> well, imho the "gay stuff" is irrelevant, but.. eh ;)
2008-03-14 19:38 < Cyrius> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IPhone&diff=198315098&oldid=198313471
2008-03-14 19:38 < th1> I think that Anders Fogh is the only EU prime minister to come out straight and say he is in favour of gay marriages/rights, of course it's got to leave him vulnerable to "he's gay" comments :)
2008-03-14 19:39 * Messedrocker eats iPhone®
2008-03-14 19:39 < gwern> iEat
2008-03-14 19:39 < th1> iDrink
2008-03-14 19:39 < th1> too much
2008-03-14 19:43 < th1> is this the main Wikipedia chat room?
2008-03-14 19:43 < Messedrocker> it sure is
2008-03-14 19:43 < Messedrocker> keep in mind, the discussion is seldom about wikipedia
2008-03-14 19:44 < ShakespeareFan00> ROFL
2008-03-14 19:44 < Cyrius> it's the Wikipedia lounge
2008-03-14 19:44 < th1> heh, ok :)
2008-03-14 19:44 < ShakespeareFan00> Yeah and watch out the crazies, alchies and freaks
2008-03-14 19:44 < ShakespeareFan00> th1: So First time?
2008-03-14 19:45 < th1> first time in here :)
2008-03-14 19:45 < th1> I've edited WP a lot, usually I just use my IP rather than my account (since the last couple of years)
2008-03-14 19:45 < ShakespeareFan00> Right please take time to read the IRC guidelines
2008-03-14 19:45 < ShakespeareFan00> :)
2008-03-14 19:45 < ShakespeareFan00> Not that ANYONE else does ;)
2008-03-14 19:45 < th1> ok if it's anything like standard IRC guidelines I don't think I'll need to ;)@
2008-03-14 19:46 < th1> i've used IRC a lot just not wikipedias :)
2008-03-14 19:46 < ShakespeareFan00> th1: Erm...
2008-03-14 19:46 < ShakespeareFan00> You don't know this place ;)
2008-03-14 19:46 < th1> ok :)
2008-03-14 19:46 < Cyrius> basically, don't be too big a dick, and if somebody wants to talk about Wikipedia, they get priority over non-Wikipedia chatter
2008-03-14 19:46 < th1> well I'm all for NPOV and all that so I guess if I don't bring up a controversial topic to be decided in "irc plenum" I'll be ok? ;)
2008-03-14 19:46 < shimgray> it's IRC, it's the same as all IRC, we just don't leave people opped & we don't like people posting logs elsewhere (for historic reasons)
2008-03-14 19:47 < Cyrius> yeah, we don't decide much
2008-03-14 19:47 < shimgray> those're your only two deviations from the norm
2008-03-14 19:47 < th1> goodleyt
2008-03-14 19:47 < Cyrius> although there are those who are convinced we're evil overlords
2008-03-14 19:47 < th1> ah well
2008-03-14 19:47 < Cyrius> oh yeah, no public logging, we don't like everything stupid we say to be permanently and publicly available
2008-03-14 19:47 < th1> all I'm convinced of is that Wikipedia is the best thing since the Reformation .. so I won't kick up much of a stir I guess :)
2008-03-14 19:48 < Cyrius> because we say a bunch of stupid stuff.
2008-03-14 19:48 < th1> Cyrius, sensible.
2008-03-14 19:48 < ShakespeareFan00> th1: Some disscusions can get VERY heated
2008-03-14 19:48 < th1> I think I can take that :)
2008-03-14 19:48 < th1> so I guess we're all for free speech and an open mind then ;)
2008-03-14 19:50 < Lucifer_Cat> you wish :P
2008-03-14 19:50 < Cyrius> no, we're evil censors who support the hegemony
2008-03-14 19:51 < Lucifer_Cat> lol
2008-03-14 19:51 < Cyrius> if the complaints are to be believed
2008-03-14 19:51 < th1> so if I was to move everything from "He is the leader of..." and all, below the intro paragraph for [[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]], would that be good or bad?
2008-03-14 19:51 < Cyrius> could at least get some paragraph breaks in there
2008-03-14 19:51 < th1> yeah
2008-03-14 19:51 < th1> but I think a brief intro should be enough and then the rest in the main article
2008-03-14 19:52 < Cyrius> it's a long article, you can have a few hundred word intro
2008-03-14 19:53 < th1> well I "be'd bold" :)
2008-03-14 19:54 < th1> is it better after or before?
2008-03-14 19:54 < Cyrius> before the TOC
2008-03-14 19:54 < ammcl> before
2008-03-14 19:54 < th1> argh
2008-03-14 19:54 < th1> the whole thing before toc?
2008-03-14 19:54 < th1> its so long..
2008-03-14 19:55 < th1> where is a good break?
2008-03-14 19:55 * Golbez sighs. nga.org is down.
2008-03-14 19:55 < ammcl> Paragraph break?
2008-03-14 19:55 < Golbez> this makes it very difficult to work on [[List of Governors of New York]], which I wanted to bring up to featured quality before monday. =p
2008-03-14 19:55 < Cyrius> featured lists, feh =)
2008-03-14 19:55 < Golbez> you shap. =p
2008-03-14 19:56 < ammcl> At "He leads", and you probably want another one as it looks like 3 paras worth.
2008-03-14 19:56 < th1> ok
2008-03-14 19:56 < th1> I'll change it to paragraph breaks
2008-03-14 19:57 < MECU> {{-}} ?
2008-03-14 19:57 < Lucifer_Cat> whats that
2008-03-14 19:57 < ammcl> Try changing some of the "he" to "Rasmussen". It makes it less repetitive. [[Elegant variation]] is popular in Wikipedia
2008-03-14 19:57 < th1> better?
2008-03-14 19:57 < MECU> {{-}} is basically a <br clear="all">
2008-03-14 19:58 < ammcl> Lovely
2008-03-14 19:58 < th1> I still think it's a lot before the ToC
2008-03-14 19:58 < ammcl> If you look at other articles you'll see it's not so big
2008-03-14 19:58 < MECU> you can force the location of the TOC
2008-03-14 19:58 < th1> ammcl, ok
2008-03-14 19:58 < th1> I changed them to "fogh" before reading your comment ;) that's what we call him
2008-03-14 19:58 < Golbez> please don't force the location of the toc
2008-03-14 19:59 < ammcl> If he's Fogh that's what to call him.
2008-03-14 19:59 < th1> Golbez, no I'm not doing that..
2008-03-14 19:59 < MECU> just saying it's an option
2008-03-14 19:59 < Golbez> as for 'too much before the toc', look at [[Adolf Hitler]], which is a good example IMO of a proper intro (though with more paragraphs than I'd prefer)
2008-03-14 20:00 < th1> Golbez, thanks, then I think [[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]] is just about right now then ;)
2008-03-14 20:01 < ammcl> Golbez, I give it a B- for the easter-egged links
2008-03-14 20:01 < ammcl> Weimar Republic == Period of Crisis?
2008-03-14 20:01 < Golbez> ammcl- i much prefer my older version
2008-03-14 20:01 < Golbez> which had 3 paragraphs and no flowery terms like 'period of crisis' =p
2008-03-14 20:02 < th1> so is [[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]] improved since I started messing with it?
2008-03-14 20:02 < Golbez> yes
2008-03-14 20:02 < Golbez> it looks good
2008-03-14 20:02 < th1> thanks
2008-03-14 20:02 * Golbez whines
2008-03-14 20:02 < Golbez> i need nga.org :(
2008-03-14 20:03 < Golbez> "Under Fogh, certain taxes have been lowered, but the Conservatives repeatedly argue for more tax cuts and a flat tax rate at no higher than 50%." Those monsters.
2008-03-14 20:03 < Lucifer_Cat> whats that?
2008-03-14 20:03 < Lucifer_Cat> i mean nga.org
2008-03-14 20:03 < Golbez> national governor's association, they keep very good lists of former governors, which i need for my work :(
2008-03-14 20:03 < Lucifer_Cat> ok
2008-03-14 20:04 < ammcl> Not on the Internet Archive?
2008-03-14 20:04 < th1> Golbez, ;) why do you think I live in the UK for the past 7 years ;)
2008-03-14 20:04 < th1> yes, because of the tax :)
2008-03-14 20:05 < th1> Golbez, current top band tax in Denmark is almost 72%!
2008-03-14 20:05 < Golbez> wow.
2008-03-14 20:05 < Lucifer_Cat> if theyre protesting for LESS than 50% tax... how much is it right now?
2008-03-14 20:05 < Lucifer_Cat> oh wow
2008-03-14 20:05 < Messedrocker> the government better pay for all your shit if they charged 72% tax
2008-03-14 20:05 < Lucifer_Cat> thats income tax?
2008-03-14 20:05 < Golbez> that's horrific.
2008-03-14 20:05 < NotASpy> could be worse, could be 95%
2008-03-14 20:05 < shimgray> *top* band income tax, mark you
2008-03-14 20:05 < ShakespeareFan00> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/msil/reflexil.aspx - See comments - Apparently .NET has some backdoors :(
2008-03-14 20:05 < Golbez> ammcl- i didn't think so, but it looks like they might have it
2008-03-14 20:05 < shimgray> that's when serious redistribution kicks in
2008-03-14 20:05 < Messedrocker> if i have to give up three-quarters of my money, i better be pampered by socialism, otherwise i wouldn't be able to afford anything
2008-03-14 20:06 < Lucifer_Cat> Messedrocker: i swear
2008-03-14 20:06 < Messedrocker> you swear what?
2008-03-14 20:06 < Lucifer_Cat> what u sais
2008-03-14 20:06 < pengo> once you got to 72% you could afford an accountant
2008-03-14 20:06 < Messedrocker> ah
2008-03-14 20:06 < Lucifer_Cat> *said
2008-03-14 20:06 < shimgray> Messedrocker: the principle of staggered tax bands is that by the time you hit the top bracket, you can already afford to live comfortably on everything below that
2008-03-14 20:06 < NotASpy> if you're earning $2 million, what does it matter if you have to give $1.5 million to the taxman, you've still got $500,000 to live on.
2008-03-14 20:06 < ammcl> Only half a million?
2008-03-14 20:06 < Messedrocker> so 72% is the absolute highest tax bracket?
2008-03-14 20:06 < th1> the tax system in Denmark is banded
2008-03-14 20:06 < th1> yeah
2008-03-14 20:07 < geniice> "taxation is for little people"
2008-03-14 20:07 < th1> you pay 72% of the last earned income
2008-03-14 20:07 < shimgray> (and, remember, tax brackets only apply to what you make *above* the threshold, it's not over all income)
2008-03-14 20:07 < Messedrocker> how about a tax system where the first $x is tax-free because that's basic standard of living costs?
2008-03-14 20:07 < Golbez> shimgray- well that makes it all better
2008-03-14 20:07 < th1> in fact it's only 60-some percent but then there is some "pension contributions" and "national insurance" on top of that
2008-03-14 20:07 < shimgray> Messedrocker: That's... fairly normal, yes.
2008-03-14 20:07 < Golbez> Messedrocker- that's where the fairtax tries to go
2008-03-14 20:07 < Scream> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Threats_of_violence
2008-03-14 20:08 < Scream> </spam>
2008-03-14 20:08 < Messedrocker> but does Fairtax actually calculate standard of living in an area, and then if you live in that area, you don't have to pay that amount?
2008-03-14 20:08 < ShakespeareFan00> th1: The last time the UK tried 'redistributive' tax bands there was a spate of residents overseas for tax purposes...
2008-03-14 20:08 < Golbez> ammcl- unfortunately it doesn't look like archive.org went deep enough
2008-03-14 20:08 < Lucifer_Cat> shimgray: ahh... so if i make 3 million and threshold is 2 mil, then basically i pay 72% of that one last million?
2008-03-14 20:08 < ammcl> Bummer
2008-03-14 20:08 < shimgray> heck, that's what I have. £5k tax free, the next £35k is 10%, then everything above that is 33%
2008-03-14 20:09 < th1> ShakespeareFan00, the danish tax system has driven lots of smart people out of the country
2008-03-14 20:09 < th1> I count myself as one ;)
2008-03-14 20:09 < Golbez> Messedrocker- no, it's a blanket refund depending on your family situation and i think income bracket
2008-03-14 20:09 < shimgray> ShakespeareFan00: WE HAVE A STAGGERED TAX SYSTEM NOW.
2008-03-14 20:09 < shimgray> god knows when the "last time" you're thinking of was
2008-03-14 20:09 < ShakespeareFan00> Yeah but not 90% bands...
2008-03-14 20:09 < ShakespeareFan00> shimgray: Labour Govt's of the Mid 70's IIRC?
2008-03-14 20:09 < Messedrocker> Golbez, oh. That's lazy
2008-03-14 20:09 < shimgray> We hit 19s. in the l. in abour 1943.
2008-03-14 20:09 < th1> ShakespeareFan00, the Danish tax bands are crazy... the top band starts at something like US$50k
2008-03-14 20:09 < Golbez> or rather, a 'prebate'
2008-03-14 20:10 < pengo> lower limit for top tax bracket in denmark DKK 327,200 (=43 880 euro, $68 343USD)
2008-03-14 20:10 < th1> plus we have VAT at 25% for everything you buy
2008-03-14 20:10 < Golbez> but hey, as long as the sheep keep allowing for theft like this, i suppose they get what they deserve.
2008-03-14 20:10 < shimgray> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UK_Tax_%28percent%29.svg is quite an interesting graph
2008-03-14 20:11 < Golbez> The world needs more Ellis Wyatts to tell these taxing regimes where to shove it.
2008-03-14 20:11 < shimgray> shows how the percentages shift with income
2008-03-14 20:12 < ShakespeareFan00> 25% VAT :O
2008-03-14 20:12 < ShakespeareFan00> Not even the arch tories would try that in the UK
2008-03-14 20:12 < th1> well it's close enough at 17.5% :)
2008-03-14 20:13 < ShakespeareFan00> Shimgray: I think there was an exodus of some talent under tax and spend Labour Govt's...
2008-03-14 20:13 < ShakespeareFan00> Don't think it was 90% though :)
2008-03-14 20:14 < th1> ShakespeareFan00, the thing is from the UK, where can you go? ;) most brits only speak English. it's easier for us "euro-sheep" :)
2008-03-14 20:14 < ShakespeareFan00> Ireland?
2008-03-14 20:14 < th1> Denmark
2008-03-14 20:14 < th1> what I'm getting at is that to live somewhere you really need to know the language.. makes it hard to settle in e.g. France
2008-03-14 20:15 < Mike_H> Who's from Denmark?
2008-03-14 20:15 < ShakespeareFan00> Well a lot of people find Ireland easy to adpat to, provided it's not a Galiec areas
2008-03-14 20:15 < th1> Mike_H, I am
2008-03-14 20:16 < Mike_H> th1: Yeah, where could you go and speak Danish?
2008-03-14 20:16 < Mike_H> The Faroe Islands?
2008-03-14 20:16 < Mike_H> Greenland?
2008-03-14 20:16 < th1> Mike2, yeah one of those ;) but all danes know English (and most know German too)
2008-03-14 20:16 < th1> s/ Mike2/Mike_H /
2008-03-14 20:16 < Mike_H> Well, I'd think it would be more advantageous to learn German over English
2008-03-14 20:16 < Mike_H> German and Swedish
2008-03-14 20:16 < Mike_H> over English.
2008-03-14 20:17 < th1> Mike_H, all Danes inherently understand Swedish and Norwegian too
2008-03-14 20:17 < Mike_H> I used to know a Danish guy, Carsten
2008-03-14 20:17 < Mike_H> he knew English and Swedish.
2008-03-14 20:17 < Golbez> don't need to know swedish, do they?
2008-03-14 20:17 < Golbez> yeah, they're mutually intelligible
2008-03-14 20:17 < th1> Mike_H, from a business point of view it's most important to know English though
2008-03-14 20:17 < th1> Golbez, yes, to a very large extent
2008-03-14 20:18 < shimgray> heck, there are areas of East Anglia where you can just about get away with plain Danish
2008-03-14 20:18 < th1> Mike_H, the point is that in Denmark we are aware that only 5 million people worldwide speak our language
2008-03-14 20:18 < th1> so we prioritize learning other languages early on in school
2008-03-14 20:18 < Mike_H> th1: Oh, that's not true
2008-03-14 20:18 < Mike_H> I'd say six million.
2008-03-14 20:18 < th1> yeah was correcting 5 to six but then I pressed enter ;)
2008-03-14 20:19 < th1> but still, not a lot
2008-03-14 20:19 < Mike_H> th1: Do you think Denmark will switch to the euro anytime soon?
2008-03-14 20:19 < th1> no
2008-03-14 20:19 < geniice> in the UK we understand that people wh don't speak our langue have nothing worth hearing and are likely forigen
2008-03-14 20:20 < th1> Mike_H, the main opposition party now does not agree with it.. so they would have a hard time to get it through a plebiscite..
2008-03-14 20:20 < th1> I think the other exclusions will be removed soon though.
2008-03-14 20:20 < Mike_H> th1: Well, that makes all three of the nations who sat out of it in 2000 still in the no column
2008-03-14 20:21 < th1> Mike_H, indeed. I think it makes financial sense too
2008-03-14 20:21 < Mike_H> th1: Well, I can understand the UK not wanting to give up the pound, but is the kroner a really strong currency?
2008-03-14 20:21 < th1> Denmark was in fact the country voted "best suited" for the Europ
2008-03-14 20:21 < Mike_H> Either in Denmark or in Sweden?
2008-03-14 20:21 < shimgray> geniice: all these immigrants coming here, can't even speak decent British!
2008-03-14 20:21 < ammcl> The pound is doing crap
2008-03-14 20:21 < ammcl> down to 75 eurocents
2008-03-14 20:22 < Mike_H> ammcl: The pound is over two to the dollar now. If any currency is doing the worst in the world it's the dollar.
2008-03-14 20:22 < th1> Mike_H, It's not so much about the strength of the currency, it is very tightly pegged to the Euro regardless. it's more about a statement of independence from the EU central bank.
2008-03-14 20:22 < ammcl> Right, but doing well against the dollar is like outrunning a snail
2008-03-14 20:22 < Mike_H> or, sorry, it's $2 to one pound
2008-03-14 20:22 < Mike_H> th1: You can't use euros in Denmark, can you?
2008-03-14 20:23 < geniice> ammcl um I think yuo have that the wrong way around
2008-03-14 20:23 < Messedrocker> yeah Mike_H, the zimbabwean dollar
2008-03-14 20:23 < ammcl> Yes,I do
2008-03-14 20:23 < th1> Mike_H, it's not an official currency no, but of course in shops that are frequented by tourists they are accepted
2008-03-14 20:23 < Mike_H> Oh, okay
2008-03-14 20:23 < ammcl> a euro is worth 75p, up from 60-65p
2008-03-14 20:23 < geniice> ammcl 130 euro cents to tbe pound
2008-03-14 20:23 < Mike_H> I was wondering if that'd be a huge inconvenience
2008-03-14 20:23 < Mike_H> for visitors from Germany and all
2008-03-14 20:24 < th1> Mike_H, well it's an inconvenience but it's something we've been used to historically ;)
2008-03-14 20:24 < Mike_H> th1: More or less all of Scandinavia is united against the euro
2008-03-14 20:24 < shimgray> it's handy, you get to do some really clever price differentiation
2008-03-14 20:24 < th1> Mike_H, nah
2008-03-14 20:24 < Mike_H> I mean, you have Denmark and Sweden who won't switch
2008-03-14 20:24 < th1> Mike_H, finland has taken the europ
2008-03-14 20:24 < Mike_H> Norway who won't even go into the EU
2008-03-14 20:24 < shimgray> hike all the "lazy tourist" prices up by about a quarter or so
2008-03-14 20:24 < arcimboldo_> Well, historically we had been used to every duke and city in Germany issuing their own money ...
2008-03-14 20:24 < Mike_H> well, what does Finland matter?
2008-03-14 20:24 < Mike_H> honestly.
2008-03-14 20:24 < th1> Mike_H, very true..
2008-03-14 20:25 < th1> the thing is that Denmark is the only country that has always been pro-EU but is anti-Euro
2008-03-14 20:25 < Demi> personally i never understood the euro as anything but notional
2008-03-14 20:25 < th1> the main point is that we want EU to be a confederation rather than a union if you get my drift
2008-03-14 20:25 < Mike_H> Demi: Well, Europe is much smaller
2008-03-14 20:25 < Demi> why not just peg all the european currencies against the euro by fiat?
2008-03-14 20:25 < Mike_H> it's like going to Idaho and them having a currency of potatoes
2008-03-14 20:25 < Mike_H> and your dollar isn't worth anything
2008-03-14 20:26 < th1> lol, Mike_H
2008-03-14 20:26 < arcimboldo_> the switch to the Euro never had a majority in people's opinion in Germany when it happened ... which shows that sometimes it's good politicians are making decisions.
2008-03-14 20:26 < Demi> my dollar *isn't* worth anything :(
2008-03-14 20:26 < th1> its oversimplifying it a bit I think
2008-03-14 20:26 < Mike_H> Demi: :(
2008-03-14 20:26 < Mike_H> th1: Well, to Americans, oversimplifying needs to occur
2008-03-14 20:26 < shimgray> Demi: Once they're all pegged, why *not* unify? makes the paperwork simpler
2008-03-14 20:26 < Demi> wait, is the dollar the potato or the euro?
2008-03-14 20:26 < Mike_H> we don't understand European issues
2008-03-14 20:26 < th1> Mike_H, :)
2008-03-14 20:26 < th1> too true
2008-03-14 20:26 < Mike_H> Demi: the potato is the euro
2008-03-14 20:26 < Mike_H> and the dollar is the dollar
2008-03-14 20:26 < shimgray> and the reduction in cross-border conversion does give a measurable economic benefit
2008-03-14 20:26 < Demi> shimgray - because you're giving up a national identity factor to make paperwork easier
2008-03-14 20:27 < Demi> essentially my scheme ("my scheme, ha") would make the national currencies denominations of the euro
2008-03-14 20:27 < Mike_H> but the euro is a mess in some countries and a boon for others
2008-03-14 20:27 < geniice> Demi been done
2008-03-14 20:27 < arcimboldo_> "everybody" believed that the Europe would be a weak currency and not comparable to the old German Mark, since it included corrupt countries like Italy
2008-03-14 20:27 < th1> Mike_H, the thing is that there's still a lot of mistrust going on in Europe, partly based on WW2
2008-03-14 20:27 < Mike_H> really the only countries that were reliable as their own currencies were France and Germany.
2008-03-14 20:27 < geniice> Demi that was how they introduced the things
2008-03-14 20:27 < Demi> you don't need to eliminate the 20p piece to "unify" the pound
2008-03-14 20:27 < Mike_H> I'd say Italy but Italy has a history of an erratic exchange rate.
2008-03-14 20:27 < shimgray> Demi: *shrug*. Europe is in the middle of a charming redefinition of what its national identities are, and if this might help them, let them try, y'know?
2008-03-14 20:28 < ammcl> It matters less now because everybody uses credit and debit cards anyway
2008-03-14 20:28 < ammcl> In Belgium we have ecash stuff as well.
2008-03-14 20:28 < Mike_H> ammcl: But even in the UK, credit and debit aren't horribly widespread
2008-03-14 20:28 < Mike_H> at least compared to the US
2008-03-14 20:28 < Mike_H> where it's EVERYWHERE
2008-03-14 20:28 < shimgray> for all our silly experimentation, this is now the longest period in recorded history no-one's come across the Rhine with fire and sword. maybe a bit of a smoothing down of national identity helps.
2008-03-14 20:28 < Demi> shimgray - it invites non-substantive contention where there should really be only substantive contention
2008-03-14 20:28 < th1> Mike_H, the main point here is that Europe is always a bit behind US, meaning we get to learn from the US mistakes ;)
2008-03-14 20:29 < Mike_H> th1: heh
2008-03-14 20:29 < Mike_H> I was hearing about credit card processing in some UK businesses
2008-03-14 20:29 < Mike_H> and they still use carbon copies of the card and such
2008-03-14 20:29 < Demi> differing beef cattle raising standards is something to argue about, not about whether the little pieces of paper have the queen on them or "non-specific inspirational european images"
2008-03-14 20:29 < Mike_H> we haven't used that in our big businesses and stores in at least 10 or 15 years.
2008-03-14 20:29 < th1> Mike_H, what do you think they use at a Texas cattle market ;)
2008-03-14 20:29 < geniice> shimgray Post war of spanish sucession?
2008-03-14 20:29 < shimgray> Mike_H: Went out two years ago; there was a big transition to pin readers.
2008-03-14 20:29 < Demi> Mike_H - interesting, that must be people resisting chip and pin
2008-03-14 20:29 < ammcl> Must be small businesses indeed.
2008-03-14 20:29 < Demi> chip and pin is full of holes
2008-03-14 20:29 < Mike_H> shimgray: NicholasT was telling me that some big stores like Harvey Nicks still use the old readers
2008-03-14 20:30 < th1> they need to bring in iris scans or fingerprints at the very least
2008-03-14 20:30 < shimgray> I've never seen one, not since ~2001. YMMV.
2008-03-14 20:30 < Demi> the uk is repeating its liability error from ATM machines
2008-03-14 20:30 < Demi> assuming that something is non-repudiable when it should be
2008-03-14 20:30 < Mike_H> shimgray: Ours went out in the mid-1990s
2008-03-14 20:30 < shimgray> (Chip and pin is vile and wrong, mind you, but...)
2008-03-14 20:30 < Mike_H> between like 1993 and 1997
2008-03-14 20:30 < th1> Mike_H, in DEnmark they went out in '91
2008-03-14 20:30 < th1> but Denmark was the only EU country to have that
2008-03-14 20:30 < Demi> i saw someone take a credit card impression not that long ago
2008-03-14 20:30 < Mike_H> Sears and JCPenney were probably the last big companies to stop using it
2008-03-14 20:30 < shimgray> Mmm. The paper ones were still in use in the nineties but obosolescent - most places other than small businesses had electronic terminals
2008-03-14 20:31 < Mike_H> in 1996-1997
2008-03-14 20:31 < Demi> if it wasn't this year it was late last year
2008-03-14 20:31 < shimgray> (we had a paper one at the cafe I worked in, for example)
2008-03-14 20:31 < Demi> oh, and several places around here won't take cards at all
2008-03-14 20:31 < Mike_H> shimgray: See, even in mom and pop places in the US that take debit/credit, they have the electronic kind
2008-03-14 20:31 < Mike_H> Demi: Maybe it's different in Oregon, but it's VERY rare in Florida to not find a place that doesn't
2008-03-14 20:31 < Demi> the local good bagel and coffee shop takes cash and checks :)
2008-03-14 20:31 < Mike_H> even in rural areas
2008-03-14 20:31 < Mike_H> that aren't touristy.
2008-03-14 20:31 < Demi> Mike_H - in oregon it's still the 90s
2008-03-14 20:32 < Mike_H> *find a place that doesn't
2008-03-14 20:32 < pengo> europe is behind? in finland you can buy a coke from the machine with your mobile
2008-03-14 20:32 < Demi> it seems pretty primitive to have to call someone to buy a coke
2008-03-14 20:32 < pengo> and it gets charged to your phone bill
2008-03-14 20:32 < Mike_H> pengo: Europe is ahead in some stupid areas (who needs to buy a Coke from their phone?) but behind in a lot of key areas
2008-03-14 20:33 < Mike_H> shimgray: NicholasT said that wireless internet isn't very widespread in the UK
2008-03-14 20:33 < Mike_H> and when it is
2008-03-14 20:33 < Mike_H> you have to pay for it
2008-03-14 20:33 < shimgray> geniice: Spanish Succession ended 1718; French army was in Germany fighting the Seven Years War by 1757, so only forty years
2008-03-14 20:34 < Krimpet> Mike_H: that's the way it is here in the USA, too, from my experience
2008-03-14 20:34 < shimgray> Mike_H: It's... variable. Free ones tend to be small-scale; the large-scale nets are corporate run by a telco and charged for
2008-03-14 20:34 < Mike_H> Krimpet: Oh, there are many areas and restaurant chains that will do Wifi for free
2008-03-14 20:34 < Mike_H> Krystal does it for free
2008-03-14 20:34 < Mike_H> Panera does it for free
2008-03-14 20:34 < Mike_H> I think Romano's Macaroni Grille does it for free
2008-03-14 20:34 < ammcl> Starbucks.
2008-03-14 20:34 < Krimpet> Panera Bread and Subway are the only places up here I'm aware of
2008-03-14 20:34 < geniice> shimgray 40 years without a war got so boring the UK had to go and fight random people from outside of euripe
2008-03-14 20:34 < Mike_H> Yes, Starbucks in Florida do it for free
2008-03-14 20:34 < Mike_H> and the Atlanta Bread Company
2008-03-14 20:34 < shimgray> National Express - who took over the ECML - now do free onboard wireless. That's pretty neat.
2008-03-14 20:34 < ammcl> And in the UK
2008-03-14 20:35 < Krimpet> Starbucks here has that damn T-Mobile for-pay stuff
2008-03-14 20:35 < Krimpet> and I've been to Starbucks in TX, same thing
2008-03-14 20:35 < Mike_H> Krimpet: Here Starbucks and Atlanta Bread compete
2008-03-14 20:35 < shimgray> as do the buses from here to London. *that* I love.
2008-03-14 20:35 < NotASpy> shimgray: I've been meaning to take my laptop on a NatEx service for a while. Is it any good ?
2008-03-14 20:35 < Mike_H> it isn't good for business to have people pay when they can go across the street and get it for free
2008-03-14 20:35 < ammcl> s/when/if/
2008-03-14 20:35 < shimgray> NotASpy: the trains, I mean, not the buses - I've never used their coaches
2008-03-14 20:35 < Demi> i've noticed in the u.s. wi-fi availability seems to be worse in big cities
2008-03-14 20:35 < Krimpet> McDonalds, Denny's, and a couple others have for-pay too; same with every airport I've been to
2008-03-14 20:36 < Mike_H> Demi: Tampa's really good for Wi-Fi.
2008-03-14 20:36 < Mike_H> About three by three city blocks in downtown are completely free for Wi-Fi.
2008-03-14 20:36 < NotASpy> shimgray: yeah, the trains. After having GNER for so long, having unwieldy names like National Express East Coast grates slightly, hence NatEx
2008-03-14 20:36 < Mike_H> Krimpet: McDonalds here is free
2008-03-14 20:36 < Mike_H> the only place I know of that charges is Barnes and Noble.
2008-03-14 20:37 * Krimpet would think WiFi would be more widespread in the fast-paced metropolitan northeast, but it's not :p
2008-03-14 20:37 < shimgray> dunno! the only service of theirs I've been on was just after they changed - GNER were always pay-for-access, and I didn't realise it had changed until I was leaving
2008-03-14 20:37 < Krimpet> I guess they're trying to capitalize off people more
2008-03-14 20:37 < Mike_H> Krimpet: Isn't there a branch of RIT in some oppressive Middle East country?
2008-03-14 20:37 < Mike_H> Like Saudi Arabia or something?
2008-03-14 20:38 < Krimpet> Mike_H: I think so
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> oh, shit, no
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> sorry
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> I was thinking of Kosovo
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> they get the same degree
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> and pay like
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> 1/15th of what Americans would pay
2008-03-14 20:38 < arcimboldo_> RIT?
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> you should go there to finish your degree
2008-03-14 20:38 < shimgray> foreign accreditation?
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: Rochester Institute of Technology
2008-03-14 20:38 < shimgray> excellent idea. been around a good century or so
2008-03-14 20:38 < Krimpet> I took a cab here a few months ago, and the cabdriver mentioned how he heard they were building one in Dubai IIRC
2008-03-14 20:38 < NotASpy> we don't really get NatEx coaches up here in Scotland, there's a few services into Glasgow and Edinburgh, and a couple up to Aberdeen, but it's mainly Megabus country here.
2008-03-14 20:38 < Mike_H> shimgray: No, it's an American degree
2008-03-14 20:39 < Mike_H> so they can go to the US when they're done if they wish
2008-03-14 20:39 < shimgray> Mike_H: Yes, I know the model very well - when I was at university, the degree regulations still dealt with the accreditation of a college in Sierra Leone :-)
2008-03-14 20:39 < Mike_H> Krimpet: The American University in Kosovo is located in the Germia district of Prishtina, Kosovo. It is affiliated with Rochester Institute of Technology in Rochester, New York.
2008-03-14 20:39 < Mike_H> That's it
2008-03-14 20:39 < Mike_H> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_University_in_Kosovo
2008-03-14 20:39 < Mike_H> All AUK courses use RIT's syllabi and apply the same teaching and examination standards as in Rochester, although fees at AUK are approximately one quarter the level of those for students attending in Rochester.
2008-03-14 20:40 < shimgray> it's an institution in one country having its degrees accredited by an overseas institution, usually a more established one
2008-03-14 20:40 < Krimpet> hmm... if I don't get my GPA up enough to get my scholarship back, that might be an option. :p
2008-03-14 20:40 < shimgray> London used to be very prolific with it, but the UK ones are mostly historic footnotes by now, because the various colleges developed into full-blown universities after decolonisation
2008-03-14 20:40 < stevecrossin> hello
2008-03-14 20:41 < Mike_H> th1: how funny
2008-03-14 20:41 < stevecrossin> anyone knows how to install this tool?
2008-03-14 20:41 < stevecrossin> http://wikipedia.mozdev.org/index.html
2008-03-14 20:41 < th1> ?
2008-03-14 20:41 < Mike_H> I'm listening to a live performance of one of my favorite songs
2008-03-14 20:41 < Mike_H> and it's on the DR1 Christmas Show
2008-03-14 20:41 < Mike_H> and I just searched to see what "DR1" was
2008-03-14 20:41 < Mike_H> and wouldn't you know it.
2008-03-14 20:41 < th1> it's the national broadcaster of Denmark
2008-03-14 20:41 < Mike_H> is it like the BBC?
2008-03-14 20:41 < th1> yeah
2008-03-14 20:42 < NotASpy> nothing's quite like the BBC though.
2008-03-14 20:42 < Mike_H> th1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=xj_SV49UdO8
2008-03-14 20:42 < th1> so?
2008-03-14 20:42 < Mike_H> th1: You're the token Danish person here, I had to share my excitement with someone, and who better than you?
2008-03-14 20:43 < th1> :)
2008-03-14 20:43 < th1> well, I'm going to bed now
2008-03-14 20:43 < th1> bye guys
2008-03-14 20:43 < Mike_H> bye
2008-03-14 20:43 < shimgray> sleep, good idea
2008-03-14 20:43 < Mike_H> it's too early for sleep!
2008-03-14 20:43 < Mike_H> and I know it is for the UKers too
2008-03-14 20:43 < Mike_H> because we're only four hours behind now!
2008-03-14 20:44 < Mike_H> I had to explain to NicholasT what "daylight savings time" was
2008-03-14 20:44 < Mike_H> apparently they just don't use that term in BE
2008-03-14 20:44 < Mike_H> because as soon as I told him what it was
2008-03-14 20:44 < Mike_H> he went "oh, summer time"
2008-03-14 20:44 < Mike_H> and I was like, yeah, but it's not summer yet
2008-03-14 20:45 < Krimpet> does their DST start the same time as ours?
2008-03-14 20:45 < Mike_H> no
2008-03-14 20:45 < Mike_H> usually we're five hours behind
2008-03-14 20:45 < Mike_H> since we sprung forward
2008-03-14 20:45 < Mike_H> we're four hours behind
2008-03-14 20:45 < Krimpet> ah, I see
2008-03-14 20:45 < Mike_H> they don't change time until...
2008-03-14 20:46 < Mike_H> March 30
2008-03-14 20:46 < Demi> DST is a scam
2008-03-14 20:46 < Arwen> so is DTS
2008-03-14 20:46 < arcimboldo_> "daylight savings"?
2008-03-14 20:46 * Krimpet wishes DST were year round
2008-03-14 20:46 < arcimboldo_> daylight saving I thought.
2008-03-14 20:46 * Demi wishes Krimpet would just get up an hour earlier
2008-03-14 20:46 < Mike_H> Daylight saving time (DST; also summer time in British English) is the convention of advancing clocks so that afternoons have more daylight and mornings have less.
2008-03-14 20:46 < Mike_H> Who the fuck calls it daylight saving?
2008-03-14 20:46 < Demi> pedants
2008-03-14 20:46 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: In the US people call it "daylight savings" with an s
2008-03-14 20:47 < Krimpet> Demi: that's exactly the opposite of what I meant :p DST means the sun rises later
2008-03-14 20:47 < Demi> then get up an hour later
2008-03-14 20:47 < uberpenguin> mmm... Der fliegende Holländer <3
2008-03-14 20:48 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: In US print journalist, "daylight saving" or "daylight savings" are acceptable
2008-03-14 20:48 < Mike_H> FORT COLLINS ? It not only costs most people an hour of sleep, now officials and researchers are questioning the value of daylight savings time.
2008-03-14 20:48 < Mike_H> WASHINGTON (AP) Daylight Savings Time went into effect at midnight Sunday, which means it might be an hour later than you think. For most people, that meant switching clocks ahead by one hour before going to bed Saturday -- to get to church, work or other activities on time Sunday.
2008-03-14 20:48 < arcimboldo_> daylight savings sounds to me like putting the sunlight into a bank account.
2008-03-14 20:49 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: It's really a colloquialism, to the point where in conversation or in text, reading "daylight saving" sounds incorrect to most Americans
2008-03-14 20:49 < Demi> there was just a comprehensive study, DST wastes money and energy
2008-03-14 20:50 < arcimboldo_> Yes, I think the EU is seriously considering cancelling DST in the near future.
2008-03-14 20:50 < spuin-> noobz
2008-03-14 20:51 < Krimpet> but when will people check their smoke detectors? <_<
2008-03-14 20:55 < Demi> you're supposed to check them monthly, DST is when you replace the batteries
2008-03-14 20:55 < Demi> i learned this from Major Dad
2008-03-14 20:56 < spuin-> huuuh
2008-03-14 20:56 < spuin-> fuck me
2008-03-14 20:58 < quanticle> Huh?
2008-03-14 20:58 < quanticle> What happened?
2008-03-14 21:07 < bumm13> 798888888888TYLK]879
2008-03-14 21:07 < uberpenguin> hey bumm13
2008-03-14 21:08 < gwern> 'Although the solution to this problem is not yet known, Graham's number is the smallest known upper bound for it. This bound was found by Graham and B. L. Rothschild (see (GR), corollary 12). They also provided the lower bound 6, adding the qualifying understatement: "Clearly, there is some room for improvement here."'
2008-03-14 21:08 < gwern> I love [[Graham's number]]
2008-03-14 21:08 < Demi> hello bumm13's cat
2008-03-14 21:09 < gwern> 'Even the number of times you take the logarithm, to get a writeable numbers, is too large to write. That is, you don't just take a logarithm once, or twice, or even a million times; if you took the logarithm 2^{10^{80}} times (about as many as you could write with all the particles in the universe) you still wouldn't be even in the ball park of being able to write out the result - even if you had any particles left over to do it 8^) ...
2008-03-14 21:09 < gwern> ... In fact, even the number of times you had to take the logarithm, is so large that the number of times you had to take its logarithm, is too large to write - and so on, and so on, 65 layers deep... Securiger 16:49, 3 May 2004 (UTC)'
2008-03-14 21:10 < quanticle> gwern: Now call Ackerman's function on it?
2008-03-14 21:11 < gwern> 'There are larger finite integers in math. In Friedman's Block Subsequence Theorem, n(4), the lower bound for the length of the string for four letters, is far, far larger than Graham's number.Mytg8 14:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)' <-- oh noes
2008-03-14 21:13 < Lucifer_Cat> hey quanticle , Demi , gwern, uberpenguin , bumm13
2008-03-14 21:14 < Lucifer_Cat> the only familiar "faces i've seen" in the last 2 days
2008-03-14 21:14 < gwern> greetings fellow human
2008-03-14 21:14 < gwern> Lucifer_Cat needs to get out moar
2008-03-14 21:14 < uberpenguin> the old guard is running thin
2008-03-14 21:14 < Lucifer_Cat> gwern: nope, im a level 34 bureaucrat
2008-03-14 21:15 < Lucifer_Cat> gwern: i was out most of the day. only that i dont know anyone in this city
2008-03-14 21:15 < gwern> Lucifer_Cat: change your name to Lonely_Cat?
2008-03-14 21:15 < Lucifer_Cat> uberpenguin: what do u mean
2008-03-14 21:15 < Lucifer_Cat> gwern: i try not to feed the depression
2008-03-14 21:15 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Hi.
2008-03-14 21:16 < Lucifer_Cat> and it will start getting better monday
2008-03-14 21:16 < Lucifer_Cat> hey quanticle
2008-03-14 21:16 < gwern> mondays are bad days
2008-03-14 21:16 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: I don't know if I count, though, because I run my IRC client in a screen session, so I'm always around in one form or another.
2008-03-14 21:16 * gwern wishes it were sunday; cause that's my fun day
2008-03-14 21:16 < quanticle> gwern: Really? I rather dislike Sundays.
2008-03-14 21:16 < quanticle> Friday FTW.
2008-03-14 21:17 < gwern> it'll just be another manic monday
2008-03-14 21:17 < Lucifer_Cat> sundays are like grim reminders of the weekend wasted and the dreary week to come
2008-03-14 21:17 < quanticle> uberpenguin: Since when was I considered one of the "old guard"? I've only been here a couple of months...
2008-03-14 21:17 < gwern> screw that. I'ma gonna go watch Rambo. laughing at that will cheer me up
2008-03-14 21:18 < Lucifer_Cat> i never thought i'd say this... but well... i cant wait for Monday... i cant wait to start working.
2008-03-14 21:18 < gwern> quanticle: heck, if you go as far back as '04, you're not just old guard, but old-old guard
2008-03-14 21:18 < quanticle> gwern: MOAR EXPLOSHUNS!
2008-03-14 21:18 < quanticle> gwern: Die Hard 4 is funnier...
2008-03-14 21:19 * gwern doesn't have a dvd of that, yesh
2008-03-14 21:22 < Lucifer_Cat> yup. Die Hard 4 had some of the funniest stunts/explosions in recent movie history
2008-03-14 21:23 < Lucifer_Cat> Bender's big score not considered since it was a direct to dvd release
2008-03-14 21:24 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: I like the bit where they have to "hack all their IPs." All movie portrayals of hacking have been silly and nonsensical so far.
2008-03-14 21:24 < Lucifer_Cat> yeah
2008-03-14 21:24 < Lucifer_Cat> there was one blatant nonsense part in there, i cant remember what it was
2008-03-14 21:24 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Are you at school now?
2008-03-14 21:25 < Lucifer_Cat> oh wait, the whole movie
2008-03-14 21:25 < Lucifer_Cat> quanticle: nope, graduated in Dec
2008-03-14 21:25 < uberpenguin> quanticle: who said I was directly referring to you?
2008-03-14 21:25 < Lucifer_Cat> I start working Monday
2008-03-14 21:25 < Demi> quanticle - i hate sundays
2008-03-14 21:25 < Demi> sunday evenings growing up was a spiral of black depression and dread
2008-03-14 21:26 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Ah. Just wondering because your hostname mentions clemson.edu
2008-03-14 21:26 < Demi> to this day i have a hard time going to sleep, i hold onto the weekend with grasping strength
2008-03-14 21:26 < quanticle> uberpenguin: What are you talking about.
2008-03-14 21:26 < quanticle> Demi: Agreed. Sundays suck.
2008-03-14 21:26 < Lucifer_Cat> yeah i still have vpn access. i connect to the campus hub to talk to ppl
2008-03-14 21:26 < quanticle> Lucifer_Cat: Ah. That explains it.
2008-03-14 21:27 < Demi> quanticle - i have enormously bad associations with the theme "tick" from 60 minutes, because my parents always watched in on sunday evenings and it meant the weekend was at an end
2008-03-14 21:27 < bumm13> heh
2008-03-14 21:27 < quanticle> Demi: Yeah. Also, it could because the inherent old-peopleness of 60 Minutes scarred your mind...
2008-03-14 21:27 < bumm13> back when people had like 5 TV channels or so
2008-03-14 21:28 < Lucifer_Cat> i remember sunday evenings. depressing.
2008-03-14 21:28 < Demi> after that was murder, she wrote
2008-03-14 21:28 < bumm13> :)
2008-03-14 21:28 < gwern> wow. did you know George Bush sr wanted to nominate Ken Starr to the supreme court?
2008-03-14 21:28 < bumm13> that show was on forever
2008-03-14 21:28 < gwern> (this was before starr was an independent whatever)
2008-03-14 21:28 < quanticle> gwern: Well, yeah. Starr hadn't gained notoriety at that point.
2008-03-14 21:29 < gwern> I had no idea. I had never heard of starr before Bill Clinton
2008-03-14 21:29 < quanticle> gwern: From what I've read, Starr wasn't a terrible legal mind. He just kinda got stuck with a job that turned out to be a political bomb.
2008-03-14 21:29 < Demi> prostaglandin
2008-03-14 21:29 < quanticle> Demi: The stuff that the prostate gland secretes?
2008-03-14 21:30 < gwern> 'although starr would later become known for his controversial pursuit of President Clinton ..., he was widely viewed at the time in Washington simply as a first-rate intellectual who valued hard work and collegality'
2008-03-14 21:31 < Lucifer_Cat> hindsight = 20/20?
2008-03-14 21:31 < quanticle> Yep. I think the effect on Ken Starr's reputation was one of the main tragedies of that entire ugly episode.
2008-03-14 21:33 < gwern> 'administration officials, especially barr and luttig, believed him to be a decent man, but one who could be maddeningly squishy and unfocused. those traits could be disastrous in a would-be conservative Supreme Couirt Justice, making him more susceptible to drift to the let after the first criticism from liberals in the media and in academia'
2008-03-14 21:34 < gwern> interestingly, he seems to've antagonized barr and luttig over an issue of presidential power
2008-03-14 21:34 < gwern> kind of poignant in this age, esp. after Harriet Mier's nom