freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-14 14:51 < NotASpy> I wonder what xkcd.com/404 will be. It's getting awfully close now.
2008-03-14 15:20 < gwern> man, this is why I hate sticklers for NOR, RS, and V. *everyone* knows that Frank herbert deliberately restricted the use of technology in his ''Dune'' series to focus more on the 'softer' stuff - but god help you if you say that in an article without a cite (and good luck finding the cite)
2008-03-14 15:22 < uberpenguin> wikipedia isn't an environment for thought of any kind, especially summary and logical conclusions
2008-03-14 15:22 < uberpenguin> etc
2008-03-14 15:22 < uberpenguin> suggestion: instead of worrying about it, have a nice beer
2008-03-14 15:22 < kenlyric> gwern: how does everyone know it if you can't cite it?
2008-03-14 15:22 < uberpenguin> your time will be better spent
2008-03-14 15:23 < morwen> the thing about things that everyone knows is that they are often wrong
2008-03-14 15:24 < kenlyric> everyone knows that harlan ellison was there that night when L Ron Hubbard had his famous conversation about making money from religions. He makes sure to remind people of it every turn. Except lots of other people, who refute that it happened in one conversation or that ellison was even present.
2008-03-14 15:24 < kenlyric> and that's a "fact" that "everyone knows" that you *can* cite
2008-03-14 15:26 < morwen> harlan ellison violates [[WP:DICK]]
2008-03-14 15:27 < Aqwis2> err
2008-03-14 15:27 < Aqwis2> what the hell was gwern talking about?
2008-03-14 15:27 < Aqwis2> i had no idea and i guess noone else than fans of the Dune series knew that
2008-03-14 15:27 < Aqwis2> wikipedia's target audience isn't dune fans
2008-03-14 15:29 < cimon> kenlyric, the fact is that it is virtually certain that Hubbard was an old bore who regurgitated his own conversational hobby-horses to death. Heinlein as the source for anything being sellable as a religion, is the one with best contemporaneus on record attestation, but that does not remove the likelihood that Hubbard will have discussed it with everyone who listened, and likely presented it as something that occured to him then and there.
2008-03-14 15:30 < uberpenguin> dune is great... so great that I didn't have to read any more than half of the first book
2008-03-14 15:31 < Aqwis2> wikipedia articles are written for readers who *don't* know the topic
2008-03-14 15:31 < Aqwis2> if you know the topic and knopw that he "deliberately restricted the use of yadda yadda", you don't need to read the article
2008-03-14 15:31 < cimon> kenlyric, Only one author has told me in person (at a dead dog party) that they were present when Hubbard had his money from religion epiphany, and that was Jack L. Chalker.
2008-03-14 15:32 < Aqwis2> citations are there so *normal* readers without prior knowledge of the topic can verify the information
2008-03-14 15:32 < cimon> And he basically said everybody else was lying...
2008-03-14 15:32 < ShakespeareFan00> Aqis2:So starting the First terran Portal is a way to make money?
2008-03-14 15:32 < kenlyric> cimon: it's a bit like vampires and the crucifixion. ;)
2008-03-14 15:32 < ShakespeareFan00> ROFL
2008-03-14 15:32 < cimon> well, most everybody else.
2008-03-14 15:32 < Aqwis2> ShakespeareFan00, ?!
2008-03-14 15:33 < Aqwis2> what?
2008-03-14 15:33 < ShakespeareFan00> Awis2: See [{Church of Emacs]] ;)
2008-03-14 15:34 < ShakespeareFan00> meidsumemprintfsi consmem su'noprintfsi squel awu
2008-03-14 15:34 < ShakespeareFan00> as well ;)
2008-03-14 15:36 < cimon> It is worth noting that the Heinlein - Hubbard conversation was one on one, so he might have been asking for confirmation to an idea arrived at a conversation at some drinkathon or another, with any number of people present. This would mean at least two separate situations at a minimum though.
2008-03-14 15:37 < cimon> One carried on as only oral tradition, and one (the Heinlein one) committed to record.
2008-03-14 15:40 < NotACow> DEATH!
2008-03-14 15:43 < Ceiling_Cat> MOAR CATZ!
2008-03-14 15:43 < cimon> good moaning
2008-03-14 15:44 < cimon> btw, great image on the front page...
2008-03-14 15:46 < gwern> kenlyric: because it's taken for granted. I have two books of literary criticism on Herbert's stuff, neither of which feels it necessary to point out the obvious, and several interviews - in whih FH surely doesn't feel the need to point out the obvious
2008-03-14 15:46 < uberpenguin> Edward VI < Henry VII
2008-03-14 15:46 < uberpenguin> in every possible way
2008-03-14 15:46 < uberpenguin> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Henry_Seven_England.jpg
2008-03-14 15:46 < gwern> kenlyric: and even if it point it out in passing, how the heck am I going to go through two books, several lengthy interviews, 5 novels just for dune, and so on just to find basic background?
2008-03-14 15:47 < uberpenguin> mmm... bedroom eyes
2008-03-14 15:47 < kenlyric> gwern: because that's what doing research is all about?
2008-03-14 15:47 < kenlyric> supporting your shit
2008-03-14 15:47 < Ceiling_Cat> cimon - thanks
2008-03-14 15:47 < gwern> kenlyric: yes, because one ignorant editor comes along, I should spend days researching basic stuff?
2008-03-14 15:48 < gwern> that's totally fair and sensible
2008-03-14 15:48 < uberpenguin> gwern: that's wikipedia!
2008-03-14 15:48 < uberpenguin> especially the newer generations of editors
2008-03-14 15:48 < kenlyric> an ignorant editor who thinks you should cite a source?
2008-03-14 15:48 < kenlyric> or, cite a source at all.
2008-03-14 15:48 < gwern> kenlyric: actually, the funny thing is he doesn't like my books as sources. apparently Tim O'Reilly's published books are self-published and pure OR
2008-03-14 15:49 < gwern> so even if I found a cite...
2008-03-14 15:49 < cimon> Ceiling_Cat, Reminds me vaguely of Grunt, if you still recall him.
2008-03-14 15:49 < kenlyric> well, that's another story
2008-03-14 15:49 < Ceiling_Cat> I remember him
2008-03-14 15:49 < Ceiling_Cat> I liked him
2008-03-14 15:50 < cimon> Ceiling_Cat, we still value our youngsters, though we are sadly (in a sentimental fashion) creating echelons that require a certain vintage for entry...
2008-03-14 15:51 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat
2008-03-14 15:52 < gwern> Ceiling_Cat: do you have access to any encyclopedias of science fiction whuch might say anything about ''Dune'' along the lines of 'Herbert deliberately suppressed technology'?
2008-03-14 15:53 < cimon> gwern, that sounds like garden variety BS to me...
2008-03-14 15:53 < cimon> YMMV
2008-03-14 15:54 < White_Cat> is any senable en.wikipedian around?
2008-03-14 15:54 < gwern> cimon: yes, because herbert wrote hard science fiction that lovingly extrapolated technology to its future limits, and didn't carefully delineate a universe which he unabashedly described as feudal, and set up tons of reasons to get *rid* of high tech?
2008-03-14 15:55 < cimon> gwern: quite, we decidedly get a very pinhole camera view.
2008-03-14 15:55 < Cyrius> um...
2008-03-14 15:56 < cimon> gwern, The water preservation suits and vibraknives are certainly excellent examples of suppressive technology...
2008-03-14 15:56 < Cyrius> isn't the feudal tech-limited universe exactly what Herbert had? because I may be confused here
2008-03-14 15:56 < NotACow> dune tech was strange.
2008-03-14 15:56 < gwern> Cyrius: yes, I'm mocking cimon for suggesting that dune wasn't soft science fiction
2008-03-14 15:57 < cimon> There is "monopolist" suppression of tech, like as with the navigators guild, but that is more akin to Micro$soft...
2008-03-14 15:57 * gwern really wishes I had a copy of 'The Maker of Dune' handy, maybe herbert said what I need in there
2008-03-14 15:59 < gwern> cimon: shield/las-gun. the butlerian jihad. the navigator's guild. how many examples do you need?
2008-03-14 15:59 < cimon> gwern: of historical tending toward suppressing to low tech, or literary=
2008-03-14 15:59 < cimon> ?
2008-03-14 16:00 < cimon> In the history, it happened. Such happened in our history too...
2008-03-14 16:00 < cimon> Japan suppressed the cannon.
2008-03-14 16:00 < cimon> They even suppressed long swords at one point.
2008-03-14 16:02 < Cyrius> we're talking about Dune, not Japan
2008-03-14 16:02 < cimon> Let's not argue from the fiction itself. I think you basically do need Herbert himself explicitly saying it.
2008-03-14 16:02 < uberpenguin> haha
2008-03-14 16:02 * uberpenguin makes a note
2008-03-14 16:02 < uberpenguin> not possible for a group of nerds to talk at length without mentioning something japanese
2008-03-14 16:03 < gwern> uberpenguin: sword hunts are a useful historical example
2008-03-14 16:03 < NotACow> ATTACK OF THE KILLER POOTIE
2008-03-14 16:03 < uberpenguin> excuses, excuses
2008-03-14 16:04 < The359> PAUL KILLS FEYD-RAUTHA!
2008-03-14 16:04 < The359> z0mg spoilers
2008-03-14 16:04 < gwern> uberpenguin: and you can hardly not mention japan in this context - japan under the tokugawa regime is one of the most successul/prolonged/effective examples of deliberate technological backwardness
2008-03-14 16:04 < cimon> gwern, even unto banning the jesuits.
2008-03-14 16:04 < gwern> uberpenguin: I'm hard pressed to think of a similar example, except maybe crossbows and europe, but that didn't last nearly as long
2008-03-14 16:05 < gwern> cimon: be fair, there was a significant correlation between jesuits visiting your country and bad things happening to it...
2008-03-14 16:05 < cimon> gwern: explicitly granted
2008-03-14 16:05 < kenlyric> christians are the Bad News
2008-03-14 16:05 < NotACow> damn jesuits
2008-03-14 16:06 < kenlyric> you chose, God or blankets
2008-03-14 16:06 < uberpenguin> gwern: okay, I concede, you've duly made your point
2008-03-14 16:06 < gwern> 'By 1553, there were more arquebuses per capita in Japan than in any other country[1]. Since they required much less training than longbows, they were essential to the unification of Japan under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu. For the same reasons of the sword hunts, later shoguns discouraged the production of guns so that, by the 1840s, it was a lost art.'
2008-03-14 16:06 < kenlyric> oh, you want the blankets?
2008-03-14 16:06 < kenlyric> the blankets have malaria
2008-03-14 16:06 < NotACow> I SPIT ON YOUR SMELLY BLANKETS
2008-03-14 16:06 < gwern> from [[Sword hunt]], actually a reasonably interesting article
2008-03-14 16:06 < gwern> kenlyric: what if I want NEITHER?
2008-03-14 16:07 < kenlyric> gwern: shotgun to the face
2008-03-14 16:07 < kenlyric> musket to the face?
2008-03-14 16:07 < NotACow> RPG TO THE FACE
2008-03-14 16:07 < NotACow> *boom* no more face
2008-03-14 16:09 < kenlyric> BFG to the face. BOOM, no more town
2008-03-14 16:09 < kenlyric> friday, stuck at work while wife parties at a bar... soo bored
2008-03-14 16:10 < Aqwis2> so what do you think, NotACow, should i write a GA on [[Fire]] or [[Nesttun]]? :)
2008-03-14 16:10 < cimon> gwern, too bad it isn't spelled [[Cword hunt]]... =D
2008-03-14 16:10 < gwern> cimon: why?
2008-03-14 16:11 < cimon> nevermind, my mind is in the gutter
2008-03-14 16:11 < cimon> something to do with easter, I suppose, and bunnies
2008-03-14 16:13 < cimon> with the number of urban feral bunnies in Helsinki, there should be enought easter eggs here in finland this easter that well be drowning in eggs.
2008-03-14 16:15 < gwern> 'Your coffee is great. I wish I had the recipe.' 'Anybody can have it. Just go to Joseph Kittay at the Good Coffee Co. (in Seattle) and say, "I want a pound of that." (Literally, "Frank Herbert's blend.") We have to buy about 50 pounds at a time, but it keeps well frozen. We have several friends around here who buy it. In fact, the next time we go over (to Seattle) we're going to take their orders.'
2008-03-14 16:15 < cimon> I wonder how many percent the chinese population is going to increase in the year of the rat.
2008-03-14 16:16 < gwern> too much
2008-03-14 16:17 < cimon> a smart person would invest in baby food companies and diaper companies...
2008-03-14 16:17 < Ceiling_Cat> MOAR CATZ!
2008-03-14 16:17 < cimon> Ceiling_Cat, I think they are more likely to produce humans, unless you know something we dont...
2008-03-14 16:18 < gwern> cimon: as I understand, china is demographically aging, which is one reason there's pressure to abandon the onechild policy
2008-03-14 16:18 < NotACow> I CAN HAZ DRAMABURGER?
2008-03-14 16:18 * Ceiling_Cat watches NotACow cause DRAMA
2008-03-14 16:18 < cimon> A dram a burger?
2008-03-14 16:20 < cimon> I reverted some very wierd vandalism from [[Ishmael (novel)]] today...
2008-03-14 16:20 < gwern> cimon: was it to ask WP to stop calling it ishmael (novel)?
2008-03-14 16:20 < cimon> I swear people are doing incomplete reversions much too much today, causing weird revision histories.
2008-03-14 16:20 < gwern> Call me Ishmael! not Ishmael (novel)
2008-03-14 16:21 < cimon> Way to start a novel with an imperative tense.
2008-03-14 16:22 * TheWeasel notices a strong correlation between political crank rants in English and capitalisation of random words
2008-03-14 16:22 < cimon> I want to start a novel with "Dear reader..."
2008-03-14 16:22 < TheWeasel> You are just Brainwashed
2008-03-14 16:22 < TheWeasel> asf.
2008-03-14 16:22 < gwern> cimon: I once read a literature book on the victorian trope of 'dear reader'
2008-03-14 16:23 < gwern> it was deadly dull, but I was surprised by how many variants there were on that technique
2008-03-14 16:24 < TheWeasel> I once read a book on grammar by a brilliant German romanticist author called Jean Paul, he made it into a then-hip letter-type novel to make it more palatable
2008-03-14 16:24 < cimon> gwern, yes, well, breaking the fourth wall has long long roots, people think it is novel, but sheakespare and co did it all the time...
2008-03-14 16:24 < TheWeasel> it was very funny indeed
2008-03-14 16:25 < TheWeasel> the genre seems to be called "epistolary novel" in English
2008-03-14 16:26 < cimon> hmm
2008-03-14 16:26 < cimon> still much preferable over jeremiads...
2008-03-14 16:27 < cimon> not to even think of apocalyptics
2008-03-14 16:27 < TheWeasel> whining never goes out of style
2008-03-14 16:27 < cimon> ...if we think about that type of labels.
2008-03-14 16:28 < cimon> TheWeasel, who is the current greatest literary whiner?
2008-03-14 16:28 < TheWeasel> Tom Wolfe.
2008-03-14 16:28 < cimon> hmm. the only one I could think of off-hand was Robert Bork...
2008-03-14 16:29 < TheWeasel> He writes fiction?
2008-03-14 16:29 < cimon> no, sloughing to gomorra
2008-03-14 16:29 < TheWeasel> Oh...
2008-03-14 16:29 < cimon> *slouch
2008-03-14 16:29 < TheWeasel> well I was thinking novelists
2008-03-14 16:29 < TheWeasel> hm...
2008-03-14 16:30 < cimon> well, non-fiction, polemics is literary too
2008-03-14 16:30 < TheWeasel> Probably some of the more rabid global warming worriers.
2008-03-14 16:30 * Ceiling_Cat huggles TheWeasel
2008-03-14 16:31 < TheWeasel> Or Lyndon LaRouche
2008-03-14 16:31 * Ceiling_Cat creates #wikimedia-mustelids for TheWeasel
2008-03-14 16:31 < TheWeasel> hehe
2008-03-14 16:31 < ThePolecat> Better?
2008-03-14 16:31 < Ceiling_Cat> MUCH
2008-03-14 16:31 < ThePolecat> :-D
2008-03-14 16:31 < cimon> TheWeasel, hmm, I don't see the intensity of hand-wringing there, really. I would class them more in the classs of apocalyptics, liking to spice it up and make stark.
2008-03-14 16:32 * cimon confisses to being a mustelid
2008-03-14 16:32 * ThePolecat confesses the blues
2008-03-14 16:32 < uberpenguin> one cannot confess the blues, one must sing the blues
2008-03-14 16:33 < cimon> bah, blues is all about wanking...
2008-03-14 16:33 * Ceiling_Cat sings the Song From the Cotton Field
2008-03-14 16:33 < ThePolecat> Der Spiegel regularly predicts that the current generation of 18-year-olds cannot possibly survive
2008-03-14 16:33 < Ceiling_Cat> see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SongFromCottonField.ogg
2008-03-14 16:33 < ThePolecat> Needless to say, they always have since.
2008-03-14 16:33 < Cyrius> the state of the world depresses me
2008-03-14 16:34 < cimon> Cyrius, we have a world state now ?
2008-03-14 16:34 < Aqwis2> it's the new world order!
2008-03-14 16:34 < ThePolecat> Lyndon is right!
2008-03-14 16:35 < ThePolecat> it's the gay dinosaurs in the Royal Family!
2008-03-14 16:35 < ThePolecat> (or something)
2008-03-14 16:35 < cimon> No, lyndon is left, right and up and down and in and out.
2008-03-14 16:35 < cimon> lyndon is all over the place.
2008-03-14 16:35 < cimon> Lydon is better though.
2008-03-14 16:35 < ThePolecat> He is funny, he wants to go back to the economics of the patently worst times in human history.
2008-03-14 16:36 < ThePolecat> Yea, those are
2008-03-14 16:36 < ThePolecat> err
2008-03-14 16:36 < cimon> Lydon and Rotten and co.
2008-03-14 16:36 < ThePolecat> No economics to speak of, really
2008-03-14 16:36 < Cyrius> it feels like we're heading toward the worst time in human history =(
2008-03-14 16:37 * ThePolecat is a stalwart optimist
2008-03-14 16:37 < cimon> Cyrius, Gold and Bear and Stearins getting you down?
2008-03-14 16:37 < ThePolecat> shapeshifting reptils are the most pressing problem of our time.
2008-03-14 16:37 < Cyrius> and the environment and nation building and sabre rattling and stupidity
2008-03-14 16:37 < cimon> Cyrius, you have to understand not all humans are affected by the dollar in a negative way...
2008-03-14 16:38 < ThePolecat> Some are also affected by the Euro in a negative way.
2008-03-14 16:38 < Cyrius> the US is being run by a man who doesn't even care enough about the population to look down on them
2008-03-14 16:38 < cimon> Cyrius, Like Obama and Clinton do?
2008-03-14 16:38 < Cyrius> Clinton, feh
2008-03-14 16:39 < cimon> The other physically, hte other in every other awy
2008-03-14 16:39 < Cyrius> I wouldn't mind a bad president if it was clear he at least cared
2008-03-14 16:40 < cimon> Cyrius: That is a fair point.
2008-03-14 16:40 * ThePolecat wouldn't mind a bad speaker as chancellor if it was clear he had a shred of ethical judgment
2008-03-14 16:40 * Cyrius writes in havelock vetinari
2008-03-14 16:40 < ThePolecat> the opposite I'd define as "bad"
2008-03-14 16:40 < cimon> Cyrius, why not Carrot?
2008-03-14 16:41 < Cyrius> because people should do what is right because it's right, not because carrot tells them to
2008-03-14 16:41 < cimon> Or queen magrat
2008-03-14 16:41 < ThePolecat> people don't have to preach for me, judgment will do
2008-03-14 16:41 < Cyrius> carrot is good at being obeyed =O
2008-03-14 16:41 < cimon> Cyrius, Elect Spike Lee.
2008-03-14 16:42 < Cyrius> uh, why?
2008-03-14 16:42 < cimon> that is what he would say in the state of the union: "Do the Right Thing"
2008-03-14 16:42 < ThePolecat> well
2008-03-14 16:42 < ThePolecat> that is quite banal.
2008-03-14 16:43 < ThePolecat> in any case, /me really dislikes the trade of competence for steadfastness
2008-03-14 16:43 < cimon> notatall, in context is poignant and ambiguous
2008-03-14 16:43 < cimon> ThePolecat, have you seen the movie?
2008-03-14 16:43 < ThePolecat> no
2008-03-14 16:44 < j0j0hell> its very simple stuff actually.. where products compete for a share of consumer dollars, the dollar contains no slack.
2008-03-14 16:44 < cimon> Btw, our article on the movie is quite sensational.
2008-03-14 16:44 < ThePolecat> the sentence itself is pretty much empty
2008-03-14 16:44 < Cyrius> americans have no more compassion
2008-03-14 16:44 < Cyrius> nobody cares
2008-03-14 16:44 < j0j0hell> so even when values fall, pricess tend not to shrink..instead, the value of money shrinks as the dollar is stretched by variations
2008-03-14 16:44 < cimon> ThePolecat, So is "I Have a Dream"
2008-03-14 16:44 < ThePolecat> no
2008-03-14 16:44 < ThePolecat> that has content
2008-03-14 16:44 < cimon> All depends on the context.
2008-03-14 16:44 < cimon> the sentence itself has no content
2008-03-14 16:45 < ThePolecat> yea, but unless you do the Right Thing, you do the Wrong Thing
2008-03-14 16:45 < ThePolecat> which is nothing you'd say you do.
2008-03-14 16:45 < ThePolecat> While MLK might have said "I have an idea."
2008-03-14 16:45 < cimon> ThePolecat, no, that is totally inaccurate...
2008-03-14 16:45 < ThePolecat> heh, fair enough
2008-03-14 16:46 < ThePolecat> if there is a right thing at all
2008-03-14 16:46 < cimon> The question not said is, (but what *is* the right thing) so there is a trap in there...
2008-03-14 16:46 < cimon> It really works perfectly in context.
2008-03-14 16:47 < ThePolecat> alright.
2008-03-14 16:47 * ThePolecat is very wary of "common sense solutions"
2008-03-14 16:48 < cimon> hmm. YOu have made a complete reversal of your earlier position then.
2008-03-14 16:49 < cimon> istr you said commonsense was the panacea nad could not be legislated
2008-03-14 16:49 < ThePolecat> I never said anything like that
2008-03-14 16:49 < ThePolecat> not in that form anyway
2008-03-14 16:50 < cimon> I didn't keep logs, of course.
2008-03-14 16:50 < Cyrius> common sense sucks
2008-03-14 16:50 < cimon> and I would never paraphrase anyone accurately, certainly...
2008-03-14 16:50 < Cyrius> when it is right, it's typically absent
2008-03-14 16:50 < Cyrius> when it's wrong, it's hard to eliminate
2008-03-14 16:50 < ThePolecat> appeal to common sense is usually a cheap way to lend legitimacy to a personal opinion
2008-03-14 16:50 < Cyrius> common sense says heavy objects fall faster than light ones
2008-03-14 16:51 < cimon> I know for a fact my memory is an excecrably reliable record.,
2008-03-14 16:51 < gwern> 'Weak dollar means the US economy is now #2 in the world, figuratively and literally'
2008-03-14 16:52 < Cyrius> who's #1?
2008-03-14 16:52 < cimon> pound
2008-03-14 16:52 < Cyrius> combined EU economy?
2008-03-14 16:52 < gwern> Cyrius: yep
2008-03-14 16:52 < gwern> threw me, since I figured it'd be japan
2008-03-14 16:52 < cimon> pound does better than euro
2008-03-14 16:52 < gwern> '"The curious outcome of breaching this latest milestone is that the size of the euro zone's annual output has now exceeded that of the U.S.," the economics department of Goldman Sachs, the Wall Street investment bank, said in a note to clients.'
2008-03-14 16:52 < Cyrius> japan's been having problems for years now
2008-03-14 16:53 < cimon> gwern, somebody should be taken out and shot for that mixed metaphor.
2008-03-14 16:53 < cimon> how does one breach a milestone?
2008-03-14 16:53 < ThePolecat> Japan needs support by its internet fanboys.
2008-03-14 16:54 < gwern> cimon: you swim really hard upwards
2008-03-14 16:54 < shimgray> is that the EU or the euro zone?
2008-03-14 16:54 < shimgray> slight difference in the two economically, +- a G8 member :-)
2008-03-14 16:54 < cimon> gwern, I didn't even get that...
2008-03-14 16:55 < cimon> gwern, is the re some swimming meaning of breach?
2008-03-14 16:55 * gwern sighs. [[breaching]], that is, [[Whale surfacing behaviour]]
2008-03-14 16:55 < cimon> Wow!
2008-03-14 16:55 < NotACow> into the breach!
2008-03-14 16:55 < cimon> neaver knew that
2008-03-14 16:55 < nsh> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Along_the_River_7-119-3.jpg
2008-03-14 16:55 < nsh> THIS.
2008-03-14 16:55 < gwern> my faith in cimon's eruditeness has been breached
2008-03-14 16:55 * gwern regrets broaching the subject
2008-03-14 16:56 * cimon attaches a breach to his breast.
2008-03-14 16:56 < NotACow> ANAL BREACH! BRING ON THE PLUG!
2008-03-14 16:56 * NotACow giggles inanely
2008-03-14 16:56 < gwern> it is like seeing a friend's shame exposed, like if they were de-breeched
2008-03-14 16:56 < ThePolecat> the brooch of all the beach beeches
2008-03-14 16:58 < cimon> heh, that reminds me, wasn't breeeching where you let go of wearing skirts as a child...
2008-03-14 16:59 < gwern> cimon: the [[breech]] page has a {{fact}} for that
2008-03-14 16:59 < shimgray> breeching?
2008-03-14 16:59 < shimgray> we have an entire article on it
2008-03-14 16:59 < ThePolecat> thats just branching off of breeching
2008-03-14 16:59 < cimon> gwern: bs, I read a very old manuscript describing the practise, at Distributed Proofreaders (you know for gutenberg.)
2008-03-14 16:59 < shimgray> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching
2008-03-14 16:59 < shimgray> god knows why we're tagging it as fact
2008-03-14 17:00 * gwern knows DP; used to do some work
2008-03-14 17:00 < gwern> shimgray: don't you know, it needs multiple WP:RS/V/NOR
2008-03-14 17:00 < shimgray> on a disambig page.
2008-03-14 17:01 < Arria> shimgray: More HDRs. o_o
2008-03-14 17:01 < gwern> shimgray: POLICIES ARE NON-NEGOTIABLE!!11
2008-03-14 17:01 < shimgray> y'know, one day I'll come back and find {{fact}} tagged as citation needed, because we can't point to a reliable third-party contesting it
2008-03-14 17:01 < cimon> shimgray, already happened, though only in virtual fashion, on a talk page...
2008-03-14 17:02 < ThePolecat> I like how people now want verbatim quotes sometimes
2008-03-14 17:02 < ThePolecat> (at least that's how it seems, since they tag every noun and verb in a sentence)
2008-03-14 17:04 < gwern> ThePolecat: I do that by default. I await the day someone guts my articles for violating WP:NONFREE in their massive usage ofquotes...
2008-03-14 17:04 < ThePolecat> 'cause every paraphrase contorts the original meaning.
2008-03-14 17:04 < ThePolecat> yea
2008-03-14 17:04 < ThePolecat> :-/
2008-03-14 17:04 < Cyrius> anybody want a free cat?
2008-03-14 17:04 < ThePolecat> Damn you, Jacques Derrida
2008-03-14 17:05 * ThePolecat wants a freak @
2008-03-14 17:08 < cimon> Do you know, somebody should broadcast It's a Wonderful Lifer right about now...
2008-03-14 17:16 < Ceiling_Cat> LUBAF!
2008-03-14 17:17 * Ceiling_Cat huggles Lubaf
2008-03-14 17:17 < Lubaf> My cable modem died.
2008-03-14 17:17 < Lubaf> But I live!
2008-03-14 17:17 < cimon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposeful_omission - prod, AFD, or zap?
2008-03-14 17:17 * Ceiling_Cat fixes that problem for Lubaf
2008-03-14 17:17 < Lubaf> No thanks to the modem, though.
2008-03-14 17:17 < Lubaf> New one works, so I'm good.
2008-03-14 17:17 < Lubaf> But I hope this one lasts longer.
2008-03-14 17:19 < Aqwis2> cimon, keep
2008-03-14 17:19 < cimon> Lubaf: my cable modem was uppity too today, but after I plugged and unplugged it enough times, it decided to coöperate...
2008-03-14 17:19 < Aqwis2> or, please add a prod so i can remove it! :)
2008-03-14 17:20 < Lubaf> cimon: Didn't know for certain it was the modem, tho.
2008-03-14 17:20 < Lubaf> Might've been the connection.
2008-03-14 17:20 < cimon> Lubaf, well it is all an anthropomorphism
2008-03-14 17:21 < cimon> or rather the pathetic fallacy
2008-03-14 17:21 < cimon> I dare not say a bad word about my connection... their cable guys are some tough hombres...
2008-03-14 17:23 < cimon> Aqwis2, I am primarily concerned that googling gets only results that are about something entirely different...
2008-03-14 17:23 < Aqwis2> the article seems plausible tho, agf /yawn
2008-03-14 17:25 < cimon> Aqwis2, like: "While there, you can also ask the regular folk what they think of the pope's purposeful omission of Israel from his list of terror victims. ..."
2008-03-14 17:26 < mexicanbanana> Java has real sockets, but Flash and JavaScript don't?
2008-03-14 17:27 < cimon> or: "The American Constitution still stands as a secular document, with the purposeful omission of God, Jesus, and Christianity. Jacoby carefully documents the ..."
2008-03-14 17:27 < Aqwis2> there are lots of obscure topics that nothing has been written about on the internet
2008-03-14 17:27 < Aqwis2> this might be one of them
2008-03-14 17:28 < mexicanbanana> Aqwis2: What might?
2008-03-14 17:28 < cimon> or it could be original research, on the other side of the coin
2008-03-14 17:28 < Aqwis2> requiring a citation that verifies that the article is not a hoax would probably not be a bad idea
2008-03-14 17:28 < Aqwis2> but that would mean the deletion of thousands of articles
2008-03-14 17:29 < cimon> Aqwis2, not necsessarily an original research by the outhor of hte article, but maybe his creative writing teacher...
2008-03-14 17:29 < Aqwis2> but
2008-03-14 17:31 < Aqwis2> i don't like invoking otherstuffexists but the fact is that we have thousands of articles that are not verifiable by a google search and are more unlikely to be real (although still likely to be) than this
2008-03-14 17:32 < cimon> hmm. well, as a compromise, I will add it to my watchlist, and cheer mightily when somebody sources it.
2008-03-14 17:32 < mexicanbanana> ?????
2008-03-14 17:32 < Aqwis2> maybe User:Pegship knows something
2008-03-14 17:33 < mexicanbanana> helo
2008-03-14 17:33 < mexicanbanana> is u at homed
2008-03-14 17:34 < cimon> Aqwis2, the anon who created the article has 6 edits.
2008-03-14 17:34 < mexicanbanana> Anons can create articles?
2008-03-14 17:35 < cimon> mexicanbanana, used to can has
2008-03-14 17:35 < Aqwis2> in 2005, yes
2008-03-14 17:35 < Aqwis2> *shrug*, i don't know
2008-03-14 17:35 < mexicanbanana> Java has real sockets, but Flash and JavaScript don't?
2008-03-14 17:36 < Aqwis2> to be honest, do what you want to it (...) although out of principle i wouldn't treat an article created by an anon different from an article created by a user
2008-03-14 17:36 < cimon> Aqwis2, I don't know it is inextant either... And I am by most all standards an inclusionist, so you want get me on the barricades railroadin the article out.
2008-03-14 17:36 < cimon> *will not
2008-03-14 17:36 < Aqwis2> hmz
2008-03-14 17:37 < cimon> (I might be tempted to go hunt some sci-fi writers manuals searching for the term...
2008-03-14 17:41 < nsh> what's this jibba jabba?
2008-03-14 17:41 < Messedrocker> WUZ DIS JIBBA JABBA
2008-03-14 17:41 < Messedrocker> I EXPECTED MILK AND AM GREETED WIT JIBBA JABBA
2008-03-14 17:41 < nsh> <LARGE> THIS JIBBA JABBA, WOT IZ IT?!1 <LARGE>
2008-03-14 17:42 < Cyrius> jibba jabba, do you speak it?!
2008-03-14 17:42 < Messedrocker> STAY IN SCHOO, FOO!
2008-03-14 17:42 < Messedrocker> DRINK YO MILK!
2008-03-14 17:42 * Cyrius steals Messedrocker's gold chains
2008-03-14 17:43 < Messedrocker> STEALIN IS WRONG FOO!
2008-03-14 17:44 < fruitbag> Hey all
2008-03-14 17:44 < nsh> TAKE THAT BACK
2008-03-14 17:45 < fruitbag> Internationally, what are the statistics on the most frequent methods by which accidents occur?
2008-03-14 17:47 < nsh> no murder planning in #wikipedia
2008-03-14 17:49 < fruitbag> I'm not planning a murder
2008-03-14 17:49 < fruitbag> I just want to keep safer :)
2008-03-14 17:49 < fruitbag> ...so, by knowing the statistics on this, I want to avoid these situations atogether.
2008-03-14 17:49 < fruitbag> altogether *
2008-03-14 17:49 < Kerotan> Wow...
2008-03-14 17:50 < Kerotan> thats not slightly obsessive.
2008-03-14 17:50 < fruitbag> Well, it's a good safety measure.
2008-03-14 17:50 < Kerotan> Just avoid doing anything.
2008-03-14 17:51 < Kerotan> I thought I was bad dodging just about all forms of smoke.
2008-03-14 17:54 < Two1655> yo
2008-03-14 17:54 < MECU> oy!
2008-03-14 17:54 < Two1655> oy ?= yo
2008-03-14 17:55 < MECU> is = si?
2008-03-14 17:55 < Messedrocker> otto = otto
2008-03-14 17:56 < Messedrocker> trippy, eh?
2008-03-14 17:56 < Two1655> well hey, thought it was a typo
2008-03-14 17:56 < zocky> reuters: "Macedonian court convicts bear of stealing honey" <-- the stupidest news story of the day
2008-03-14 17:56 < Two1655> wtfbbq?
2008-03-14 17:56 < MECU> oh, I get it now Two, I was just trying to be funny
2008-03-14 17:56 < Two1655> ...okay, bad way to make an impression
2008-03-14 17:56 < MECU> can you do any php coding on Wikipedia? would you have to do it on the toolserver?
2008-03-14 17:57 < Two1655> no prob mecu
2008-03-14 17:57 < Two1655> Me?
2008-03-14 17:57 < Autocracy> MECU: ?
2008-03-14 17:57 < MECU> no, I'm just asking in general
2008-03-14 17:57 < MECU> can I do it?
2008-03-14 17:57 < zocky> in reality, the court decided that the beehive was destroyed by a bear, and not by thieves or whatever, meaning that the government needs to pay the damages, because bears are protected
2008-03-14 17:57 < Two1655> saw same thing on wikipedia-en
2008-03-14 17:57 < Autocracy> MECU: makding your own tools in php that use the wikipedia database?
2008-03-14 17:57 < MECU> no, they I wouldn't need database access
2008-03-14 17:57 < MECU> *they=
2008-03-14 17:58 < Autocracy> MECU: can you re-ask teh question then?
2008-03-14 17:58 < MECU> can I write a php script that would run on Wikipedia or the toolserver? It would be for Wikipedia of course
2008-03-14 17:59 < fruitbag> Has anyone here ever studied beehive dynamics?
2008-03-14 17:59 < NotASpy> fruitbag: what do you want to know about beehive dynamics ?
2008-03-14 18:00 < fruitbag> Never mind
2008-03-14 18:01 < fruitbag> Guys -- I've been pondering, and I have some suggestions on improving the reliability of Wikipedia articles.
2008-03-14 18:01 < fruitbag> Psychologically, why do people vandalise articles in Wikipedia?
2008-03-14 18:01 < fruitbag> ...I want to understand.
2008-03-14 18:01 < NotASpy> does it involve bees ?
2008-03-14 18:01 < Aqwis2> ask them
2008-03-14 18:01 < fruitbag> In order to solve the problem, one must understand its cause.
2008-03-14 18:01 < NotASpy> bees. fruitbag. Bumble bees.
2008-03-14 18:01 < Messedrocker> fruitbag, because it's fun
2008-03-14 18:01 < Messedrocker> or because they're seeking revenge
2008-03-14 18:01 < fruitbag> Messedrocker: that's pretty vague.
2008-03-14 18:01 < fruitbag> Messedrocker: revenge?
2008-03-14 18:02 < fruitbag> ...what else?
2008-03-14 18:02 < MECU> fruitbag: why do people vandalize anything?
2008-03-14 18:02 < Aqwis2> vandals are obviously inherently evil psychopaths!
2008-03-14 18:02 < Aqwis2> they shall be purged and it is your duty to do it
2008-03-14 18:02 < Two1655> Aqwis2: agreed!
2008-03-14 18:02 < fruitbag> MECU: rebellion?
2008-03-14 18:02 < Aqwis2> that's how you're not supposed to think
2008-03-14 18:02 < Aqwis2> and i hope that was sarcasm, Two1655 ;)
2008-03-14 18:03 < fruitbag> But, guys... let's consider this academically with a sociological and psychological perspective.
2008-03-14 18:03 < Two1655> you were being sarcastic?
2008-03-14 18:03 * Two1655 hears laugh track in the background
2008-03-14 18:03 < fruitbag> Psychologically speaking, why do people vandalize at all?
2008-03-14 18:03 < Two1655> they think it's funn
2008-03-14 18:03 < fruitbag> What drives them to vandalize?
2008-03-14 18:03 < fruitbag> Yes, but why?
2008-03-14 18:04 < Two1655> fun*. at least that's what a friend of mine said
2008-03-14 18:04 < fruitbag> That's a pretty vague answer, Two1655.
2008-03-14 18:04 < MECU> probably because they lack respect for the existing item (article, wall) for starters
2008-03-14 18:04 < cimon> fruitbag, what drives people to revert vandalism?
2008-03-14 18:04 < fruitbag> I was expecting an academic explanation.
2008-03-14 18:04 < Two1655> at least that's what a friend of mine said
2008-03-14 18:04 < Two1655> vandalism screws up Wikipedia, cimon
2008-03-14 18:04 < fruitbag> MECU: well, indeed. Lack of respect is an element.
2008-03-14 18:04 < MECU> seeking a cheap thrill?
2008-03-14 18:05 < MECU> they like to be the annoyance? get attention?
2008-03-14 18:05 < cimon> fruitbag, playing is rehearsal for adult behaviours, screwing with the accomplishments is part and parcel of what tehy will have to do to succeed spectacularly as adults.
2008-03-14 18:05 < fruitbag> One does not commit such acts unless they respect it
2008-03-14 18:05 < Two1655> all three are great expl's, MECU
2008-03-14 18:06 < MECU> I saw an IP address commit vandalism 7 times on the same article. It was a school IP and they just kept doing it over and over, like they were going to do it until they got blocked. They were warned 5 times before they got blocked. Perhaps they were bored in a class, or just wanted to get the IP blocked.
2008-03-14 18:06 < fruitbag> ...maybe these people are rebelling against something.
2008-03-14 18:06 < cimon> fruitbag, Look at what clinton and obama are doing atm. they are vandalising each other...
2008-03-14 18:06 < fruitbag> Maybe it is a form of revenge against something.
2008-03-14 18:06 < fruitbag> ...something relating to their childhood, maybe?
2008-03-14 18:07 < fruitbag> Guys -- I suggest Wikipedia to ban those who repeatedly vandalise and put false information.
2008-03-14 18:07 < Cyrius> a large fraction of vandalism is people who still don't believe that they can edit
2008-03-14 18:07 < fruitbag> There are alot of measures Wikipedia can take to make it very reliable.
2008-03-14 18:07 < fruitbag> ...there's no need for academics.
2008-03-14 18:07 < MECU> but for every vandal that do that, there are people that revert it. I work on OTRS and there was an email from a kid turning in his teacher because they said the teacher would purposly put false things into aticles so if the kids copied it he would know. The kid would actually go and revert all the teacher's efforts.
2008-03-14 18:07 < Two1655> maybe...they're demons sent to Earth by the Great Marmalade Overlord to wreak havoc on all open-source projects!....
2008-03-14 18:07 < cimon> fruitbag, didn't the clintons take the letter H from keyboards in the whitehouse?
2008-03-14 18:07 < fruitbag> I'm not sure I'll be using Google Knol in the future.
2008-03-14 18:07 < Two1655> cimon: Huhhh =?
2008-03-14 18:07 < Cyrius> people who vandalize tend to get banned
2008-03-14 18:08 < MECU> cimon: it was a W
2008-03-14 18:08 < fruitbag> Ah, man... if I were rich, I'd give a billion to the Wikipedia foundation.
2008-03-14 18:08 < cimon> Two1655, the last day Bill was in office. You mean you haven't heard the story.
2008-03-14 18:08 < Two1655> Yeah
2008-03-14 18:08 < cimon> oops, H Was Herbert Walker...
2008-03-14 18:08 < Two1655> cimon: reason for removal of w?
2008-03-14 18:08 < fruitbag> Guys -- Wikipedia can be made extremely reliable.
2008-03-14 18:09 < fruitbag> It needs to take some measures, though.
2008-03-14 18:09 < cimon> Two1655, same as vandalizing wikipedia, I bet.
2008-03-14 18:09 < fruitbag> One thing the foundation should look into is the reasons why a person vandalizes.
2008-03-14 18:09 < MECU> Two1655: how old are you, if you don't mind sharing?
2008-03-14 18:09 < Two1655> 15 tomorrow
2008-03-14 18:09 < fruitbag> They must analyise the reasons for valdalisms critically.
2008-03-14 18:09 < fruitbag> analyse *
2008-03-14 18:10 < Two1655> mecu: why
2008-03-14 18:10 < MECU> just curious
2008-03-14 18:10 < Two1655> [grunts nonchalantly]
2008-03-14 18:12 < Cyrius> fruitbag: some of them think we're evil and that they're somehow striking a blow for justice
2008-03-14 18:12 * Two1655 came back to see reaction to his quit message
2008-03-14 18:13 < MECU> yah, "Client Quit" is pretty risque
2008-03-14 18:13 < Two1655> ...
2008-03-14 18:14 < fruitbag> I love Wikipedia
2008-03-14 18:14 < fruitbag> I'm not sure I like Knol too much
2008-03-14 18:16 < dtobias> Is Knol actually live now?
2008-03-14 18:27 < gwern> some supreme court justices are odd. Blackmun once threated Sandra Day O'connor that he wouldn't join an opinion of hers if she used the words 'viable' or 'parameter'
2008-03-14 18:27 < gwern> apparently he didn't like those words
2008-03-14 18:32 * gwern reads [[road trip]]: 'The first recorded road trip was attested in stele in the court of Ramses II. He was said to "come down on the Medeans in his chariot after driving allnight from Memphis."'. did - did I accidentally stumble in some BJAODAN?
2008-03-14 18:33 < gwern> ''It is not known exactly when Road Trips were ‘invented’, but technically they have been around as long as people have had roads to travel and vehicles to travel with.' HEY THERE, THANKS WIKIPEDIA"' qwantz.com
2008-03-14 18:33 < NotACow> http://nonbovine-ruminations.blogspot.com/2008/03/wikipedia-quality-animation-in-united.html
2008-03-14 18:34 < gwern> NotACow: I hae no idea what the point of that was, so [[Oolong (rabbit)|here's a rabbit with a waffle on its head]]
2008-03-14 18:35 < NotACow> gwern: haha
2008-03-14 18:35 < NotACow> gwern: that would not be a failing article.
2008-03-14 18:36 < Aqwis2> lol.
2008-03-14 18:36 < gwern> (it's funny cuz I'm parodying the original 'pancake on its head' with waffle, since that's what the article has)
2008-03-14 18:36 < mexicanbanana> Is money laundry every done literally rather than methaphorically?
2008-03-14 18:37 < ShakespeareFan00> Sometimes...
2008-03-14 18:37 < ShakespeareFan00> I think the Bank Of England sometimes washes 'legal' notes..
2008-03-14 18:37 < gwern> mexicanbanana: surely banks need to do something with their dirty cash? don't they send damaged ones to the mint and get new ones back?
2008-03-14 18:38 < ShakespeareFan00> but in general old notes get burnt
2008-03-14 18:38 < ShakespeareFan00> and replaced with new ones..
2008-03-14 18:38 < Kamping_Kaiser> i thought english money was paper?
2008-03-14 18:38 < ShakespeareFan00> You can wash modern bank paper
2008-03-14 18:38 < gwern> it's cloth paper, so of course it can be washed
2008-03-14 18:39 < Kamping_Kaiser> ah right.
2008-03-14 18:39 < mexicanbanana> Hmm...
2008-03-14 18:39 < mexicanbanana> I have a hard time imagining that scene.
2008-03-14 18:39 < gwern> linen, iirc
2008-03-14 18:39 < mexicanbanana> Fat people smoking cigars and wearing costumes with highhats and doing money laundry! ^^
2008-03-14 18:40 < ShakespeareFan00> It's a rather complex and secure process...
2008-03-14 18:40 < Cyrius> money laundering!
2008-03-14 18:40 < Cyrius> hee
2008-03-14 18:40 < ShakespeareFan00> And in the UK if you've been spoken to by the cops, you don't get near the Bank of England's money cleaning plant...
2008-03-14 18:40 < mexicanbanana> Is it safe to wash your own money in water?
2008-03-14 18:41 < ShakespeareFan00> No
2008-03-14 18:41 < amidaniel> o.o
2008-03-14 18:41 < Pilotguy> Yes
2008-03-14 18:41 < Cyrius> bad for the watermark
2008-03-14 18:41 < ShakespeareFan00> IIRC I think the process the Bank of England uses is more akin to a dry cleaners...
2008-03-14 18:41 < gwern> 'The Yagi was first widely used during World War II for airborne radar sets, because of its simplicity and directionality. The Japanese military authorities first became aware of this technology after the Battle of Singapore when they captured the notes of a British radar technician that mentioned "yagi antenna". Japanese intelligence officers did not even recognise that Yagi was a Japanese name in this context. When "questioned" the ...
2008-03-14 18:41 < gwern> ... technician said it was an antenna named after a Japanese professor. (This story is analogous to the story of American intelligence officers interrogating German rocket scientists and finding out that Robert Goddard was the real pioneer of rocket technology even though he was not well known in the US at that time.)'
2008-03-14 18:42 < ShakespeareFan00> mexcianbanana: Probably not, and in any case you aren't supposed to deface currency
2008-03-14 18:43 < geniice> that would depend
2008-03-14 18:43 < gwern> ShakespeareFan00: thought that was an anti-fraud statue
2008-03-14 18:43 < ShakespeareFan00> You can technically get into trouble for putting UK bank notes through the wash I heard...
2008-03-14 18:44 < NotACow> nerp?
2008-03-14 18:44 < ShakespeareFan00> But it's one of those ones that's never actually ever been used, like the law about ducks on cheapside...
2008-03-14 18:44 < ShakespeareFan00> Or the urbna myth about cab drivers needing a bale of hay... ;)
2008-03-14 18:45 < mexicanbanana> How does a currency... start? The first bills must have met skeptical faces when they were handed out.
2008-03-14 18:45 < ShakespeareFan00> (For the horse- before anyone asks)
2008-03-14 18:45 < ShakespeareFan00> Well the first US dollar bills, where akin to an IOU from the Federal Reserve
2008-03-14 18:46 < ShakespeareFan00> and where nothing like todays bank notes...
2008-03-14 18:46 < shimgray> mexicanbanana: Banknotes were a bit of a leap initially, yes.
2008-03-14 18:46 < ShakespeareFan00> That said IIRC the Chinese and Japanese had 'paper' money VERY early.
2008-03-14 18:46 < gwern> mexicanbanana: no, people generally had little trouble since they were securitized initially; the problem came when fiat currency kept leading to massive inflation and abuse and collapse... the chinese started having skeptical faces after the first few disastrous experiments with flying paper
2008-03-14 18:46 < NotACow> mexicanbanana: the first bills were gold notes issued by goldsmiths
2008-03-14 18:47 < shimgray> they had their roots in personal cheques, or in direct titles to stuff held by goldsmiths
2008-03-14 18:47 < NotACow> mexicanbanana: you gave the goldsmith gold, and he would give you a note stating that you had deposited a certain amount of gold with him
2008-03-14 18:47 < shimgray> basically, a banknote was a bit of paper saying "ounce of gold held by J. Smith, find Smith and he'll give you the gold for this note"
2008-03-14 18:47 < NotACow> people started using those notes to settle debts
2008-03-14 18:48 < mexicanbanana> FLYING paper?
2008-03-14 18:48 < NotACow> because they were easier to carry than the gold itself
2008-03-14 18:48 < ShakespeareFan00> and in the UK those notes became very important...
2008-03-14 18:48 < gwern> mexicanbanana: yes, that's what they called them initially
2008-03-14 18:48 < ShakespeareFan00> because of thier power to settle debts
2008-03-14 18:48 < mexicanbanana> Hrm.
2008-03-14 18:48 < gwern> in the same vein as 'cloud ladders', 'thousand-leagure boots', etc
2008-03-14 18:48 < shimgray> took a long time to develop to fiat currency, where it didn't directly link to the ounce of gold
2008-03-14 18:48 < NotACow> cheques were similar, but not quite the same
2008-03-14 18:48 < gwern> *league
2008-03-14 18:48 < shimgray> there's a few good books floating around on this topic
2008-03-14 18:48 < ShakespeareFan00> I think in 18th century britan, forgery of 'bank notes' was a serious capital offence.
2008-03-14 18:49 < NotACow> shimgray: fiat currency is hard to explain
2008-03-14 18:49 < ShakespeareFan00> because of the importance the notes had
2008-03-14 18:49 < shimgray> someone wrote a nice "history of the pound", aimed at the general market, c. 1999
2008-03-14 18:49 < mexicanbanana> I wonder how many books out there were never read by anyone but the author.
2008-03-14 18:49 < mexicanbanana> Or by less than like 10 people.
2008-03-14 18:49 < shimgray> there's an *excellent* one from the eighties, but it's a heavier monograph aimed at people with a bit more economic grounding
2008-03-14 18:49 < shimgray> (I found it a bit heavy going)
2008-03-14 18:49 < ShakespeareFan00> shimgray: bedtime reading for economists?
2008-03-14 18:49 < ShakespeareFan00> ;)
2008-03-14 18:50 < mexicanbanana> Imagine what an ultimate insult. You spend countless hours writing a book and then nobody bothers to read it.
2008-03-14 18:50 < mexicanbanana> Surprisingly, every semi-famous person seems to have written a book. I don't understand that.
2008-03-14 18:50 < ShakespeareFan00> I can think of Wikipedia articles like that :(
2008-03-14 18:50 < shimgray> ah, there we are. David Sinclar / 'The Pound: a biography'
2008-03-14 18:50 < NotACow> mexicanbanana: that's true of many wikipedia articles :)
2008-03-14 18:50 < gwern> ultimate insult - or cogent calculation?
2008-03-14 18:50 < mexicanbanana> Seems like something that only a select few should be able to do.
2008-03-14 18:50 < ShakespeareFan00> Anyone can write a book
2008-03-14 18:50 < ShakespeareFan00> As anyone can edit Wikipedia
2008-03-14 18:50 < shimgray> good general work, and by virtue of it being the UKP it covers pretty much the entire evolution of currency
2008-03-14 18:51 < gwern> true. heck, I've written a book, but I wouldn't have the gall to try to get it published
2008-03-14 18:51 < ShakespeareFan00> Writing a GOOD well researched book is hard..
2008-03-14 18:51 < mexicanbanana> I couldn't write a book. I would keep editing it forever before I "released" it as "stable".
2008-03-14 18:52 < ShakespeareFan00> shimgray: Do you mind if I ask a question on something unrelated?
2008-03-14 18:52 < shimgray> Assuming it isn't exceptionally stupid.
2008-03-14 18:52 < Lubaf> NotACow: How's wikidrama?
2008-03-14 18:52 < geniice> ShakespeareFan00 most Phd thesis are not exactly widely read
2008-03-14 18:52 < ShakespeareFan00> Why is there a 1 wekk waiting period on images moved to commons?
2008-03-14 18:53 < ShakespeareFan00> *week
2008-03-14 18:53 < NotACow> Lubaf: i have no idea :)
2008-03-14 18:53 < shimgray> Absolutely no idea.
2008-03-14 18:53 < ShakespeareFan00> geniice: Except by a few other PhD presumably
2008-03-14 18:53 * NotACow has been writing reviews of content the last week
2008-03-14 18:54 < geniice> ShakespeareFan00 not really. your prof retires your uni stops doing work in that area so future Phs don't care
2008-03-14 18:54 < ShakespeareFan00> WikiStink?
2008-03-14 18:54 < gwern> NotACow: what you should do is compare EB and WP articles. I find that very interesting
2008-03-14 18:54 < ShakespeareFan00> gwern: LOL
2008-03-14 18:54 < geniice> ShakespeareFan00 btw http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Geni/OS_maps
2008-03-14 18:54 < ShakespeareFan00> EB is more acuurate
2008-03-14 18:54 < shimgray> I have to say, what amazes me about wikistats is the fact that even the most insanely trivial of articles *get readers*
2008-03-14 18:55 < gwern> OS = Ordnance Survey?
2008-03-14 18:55 < shimgray> I mean - http://stats.grok.se/en/200802/Temple_Hardy is the most tedious historical footnote I can remember writing, and there's a good three or so readers a day.
2008-03-14 18:55 < NotACow> gwern: i don't want to do that. :)
2008-03-14 18:55 < Cyrius> shimgray: huge traffic + crazy interlinking
2008-03-14 18:55 < ShakespeareFan00> geniice: OK
2008-03-14 18:55 < gwern> shimgray: I wish wikistats had a option to go through your contribs and rank articles by viewership against how many edits you made
2008-03-14 18:55 < ShakespeareFan00> Time to put out an open appeal for others with other sheet numbers :)
2008-03-14 18:57 < shimgray> geniice: have you looked at the National Library of Scotland maps website?
2008-03-14 18:57 < NotACow> shimgray: the stats report is a bit ego-smashing for a lot of editors, i bet
2008-03-14 18:57 < geniice> shimgray not going near national libries
2008-03-14 18:57 < ShakespeareFan00> geniice: Do you Mind if I do some sorting?
2008-03-14 18:57 < shimgray> they've digitised huge swathes of old atlases. interesting, at the very least.
2008-03-14 18:57 < geniice> shimgray I can pic up new popular edition maps for £2.50
2008-03-14 18:58 < ShakespeareFan00> geniice: :O
2008-03-14 18:58 < geniice> shimgray for a scan from your averege libiary we would be looking and £10s
2008-03-14 18:58 < ShakespeareFan00> Mike Calder who runs npemap reckoned he spent over £4000 getting all his