freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-06 23:31 * zocky doesn't find people who like going to war particularly impressive
2008-03-06 23:32 < White_Cat> zocky oh it is impressive
2008-03-06 23:32 < White_Cat> you want to go to hell many times
2008-03-06 23:32 < White_Cat> for the sake of your country or for the hell of it
2008-03-06 23:32 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - one often overlooked problem of living that long is that you tend to outlive everyone you know
2008-03-06 23:32 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat not true
2008-03-06 23:33 < quanticle> Hell, I consider simply surviving for 107 years to be an impressive achievement, much less living through two World Wars and the Great Dpression...
2008-03-06 23:33 < White_Cat> you could be like sem becket
2008-03-06 23:33 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - ok, except possibly your own descendants
2008-03-06 23:33 < White_Cat> *sam
2008-03-06 23:33 < quanticle> *Depression
2008-03-06 23:33 < Ceiling_Cat> although Jean Calmet outlived her own son and grand-daughter
2008-03-06 23:33 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat you aint a quantum leap fan?
2008-03-06 23:33 < nokmar> well, I usually consider a troll simply to be someone who inflames a community
2008-03-06 23:33 < zocky> this old geezer looks ok... he volunteered as a kid, which can be forgiven, and he went to WWII, which was probably the only 20th century war worth fighting
2008-03-06 23:33 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat outliving your children is probably a terrible thing
2008-03-06 23:33 < zvook> like sam becket how? write terrifying droll stuff about life being depressing?
2008-03-06 23:33 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Yeah. It'd suck to have *all* your friends die before you. On the other hand, someone has to die last...
2008-03-06 23:34 < nokmar> quanticle: you have younger friends
2008-03-06 23:34 < White_Cat> zvook Sam Becket is a fictional character
2008-03-06 23:34 < zvook> or grow into an amazingly cool looking face with rivulets and such
2008-03-06 23:34 < nokmar> who says people can't make new friends?
2008-03-06 23:34 < zvook> oh you mean the quantum leap figure
2008-03-06 23:34 < Ceiling_Cat> on the other hand, I have to admin it would be cool to be there at the dawn of the 22nd century
2008-03-06 23:34 < Ceiling_Cat> admit*
2008-03-06 23:34 < Ceiling_Cat> I'd be a sprite 118 years old at that point
2008-03-06 23:34 < zvook> sam becket is a famous playwright and author
2008-03-06 23:35 < zvook> [[Samuel Beckett]]
2008-03-06 23:35 * Gracenotes transforms Ceiling_Cat into a struldbrug
2008-03-06 23:35 < White_Cat> Wikipedia is facing an identity crisis as it is torn between two alternative futures. It can either strive to encompass every aspect of human knowledge, no matter how trivial; or it can adopt a more stringent editorial policy and ban articles on trivial subjects, in the hope that this will enhance its reputation as a trustworthy and credible reference source.
2008-03-06 23:35 < quanticle> White_Cat: We've already had this dicussion, I think.
2008-03-06 23:35 < White_Cat> NedScott reat it please: http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10789354
2008-03-06 23:35 < zvook> please don't rant apropos of nothing
2008-03-06 23:35 < White_Cat> *read
2008-03-06 23:35 < quanticle> Oh wait, I'm on IGNORE, aren't I?
2008-03-06 23:35 < zocky> White_Cat, that story is somewhat silly
2008-03-06 23:36 < White_Cat> quanticle I crashed my client twice to ignoe you
2008-03-06 23:36 < Gracenotes> quanticle: =]
2008-03-06 23:36 < White_Cat> I failed
2008-03-06 23:36 < nokmar> =D
2008-03-06 23:36 < Ceiling_Cat> [[Turritopsis nutricula]] <-- this jellyfish is capable of living forever
2008-03-06 23:36 < Gracenotes> White_Cat: it's just another story about inclusionism vs. deletionism
2008-03-06 23:36 < Ceiling_Cat> (literally)
2008-03-06 23:36 < AppleBoy> now how is this possible, "current battery capacity: 6847mAh", "original battery capacity: 5500mAh"
2008-03-06 23:36 < quanticle> White_Cat: I think its because I'm an op on this channel now. You might be blocked from ignoring me...
2008-03-06 23:36 < White_Cat> Gracenotes are there others?
2008-03-06 23:36 < Gracenotes> yes...
2008-03-06 23:36 < White_Cat> quanticle notacow did that
2008-03-06 23:36 < AppleBoy> when do I get my ops back?
2008-03-06 23:36 < quanticle> AppleBoy: You should take a screenshot and submit it to the DailyWTF.
2008-03-06 23:36 < nokmar> quanticle: I thought ignores were client-side
2008-03-06 23:36 < White_Cat> quanticle I will definately ignore you now
2008-03-06 23:37 < Gracenotes> they are
2008-03-06 23:37 < Gracenotes> except for private message ignores for unregistered users
2008-03-06 23:37 < zocky> what's a good estimate for the total number of people ever?
2008-03-06 23:37 < Gracenotes> and +C user mode for blocking CTCPs
2008-03-06 23:37 * quanticle thinks White_Cat's client just sucks...
2008-03-06 23:37 < White_Cat> I cn ignore via consol
2008-03-06 23:37 < Ceiling_Cat> zocky - that depends greatly on where you drawn the dividing line bewteen people and apes
2008-03-06 23:37 * nokmar thinks White_Cat forgot to pretend to ignore quanticle
2008-03-06 23:37 < White_Cat> which I did
2008-03-06 23:38 < quanticle> zocky: Hmmm, I'd probably say somewhere on the order of 20 billion...
2008-03-06 23:38 < White_Cat> right click seems broken
2008-03-06 23:38 < Ceiling_Cat> http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx <--- this one uses 50,000 BC
2008-03-06 23:38 < Gracenotes> White_Cat: get off the Mac, then... :)
2008-03-06 23:38 < Gracenotes> .
2008-03-06 23:38 < Ceiling_Cat> the estimate there is 106 billion
2008-03-06 23:39 < ARfdee> hi
2008-03-06 23:39 < zocky> yeah, and 5.8% still alive
2008-03-06 23:39 < Gracenotes> goodbye
2008-03-06 23:39 < zvook> seems low
2008-03-06 23:39 < zocky> so, if it's 100 billion people ever born, and 6 billion people still alive, you have a 6% chance to survive, right?
2008-03-06 23:39 < gwern> http://www.goolag.org/press.html <-- I suppose in any government as big as the chinese gov.t bureaucrats are gonna host a bunch of publicly accessible porn eventually
2008-03-06 23:39 < Gracenotes> well, I'm off. dear Lord, so tired.
2008-03-06 23:39 < nokmar> zocky: lol
2008-03-06 23:40 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: "Life expectancy at birth probably averaged only about 10 years for most of human history. Estimates of average life expectancy in Iron Age France have been put at only 10 or 12 years." <-- Really puts the advancements of modern medical technology in perspective, given that life expectancy (even in the "least healthy" places on Earth) is usually on the order of 30-35 years or so...
2008-03-06 23:40 < Ceiling_Cat> zocky - the problem is, every person who has ever lived has died in ~120 years or less
2008-03-06 23:40 < nokmar> his model assumes everybody is born at the same time, and his cutoff is today.
2008-03-06 23:40 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - I've heard that before, actually
2008-03-06 23:40 < Ceiling_Cat> that the average cave man lived to about 18 years
2008-03-06 23:41 < Ceiling_Cat> 10 seems too low
2008-03-06 23:41 < Ceiling_Cat> the brain fissures have not closed
2008-03-06 23:41 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat
2008-03-06 23:41 < White_Cat> remeber you said you were consider making me an op here
2008-03-06 23:41 < White_Cat> please dont
2008-03-06 23:41 < Ceiling_Cat> abstract thinking is not present
2008-03-06 23:41 < White_Cat> because no matter what action I take
2008-03-06 23:41 < White_Cat> people will contradict it for the sake of contradictiong
2008-03-06 23:41 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Its not low, if you take into account the extraordinarily high rate of infant mortality.
2008-03-06 23:41 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat actualy thats not entirely correct
2008-03-06 23:41 < White_Cat> 22 was the real age
2008-03-06 23:41 < zocky> Ceiling_Cat, I jest of course. OTOH, iit's not entirely unprobable that you'll get to see year 2100.
2008-03-06 23:41 < Ceiling_Cat> oh, life expectancy *after* birth was 22
2008-03-06 23:41 < Ceiling_Cat> gotcha
2008-03-06 23:42 < Gracenotes> quanticle: high rate of infant mortality? how do you figure?
2008-03-06 23:42 < zocky> by the time you need medical help to stay alive, medicine will have progressed much
2008-03-06 23:42 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat otherwise human civilization would not have advanced
2008-03-06 23:42 < quanticle> Gracenotes: If a large number of babies die before their first year, your average life expectancy will be really low.
2008-03-06 23:42 < Gracenotes> not seastar-esque high, certainly
2008-03-06 23:42 < White_Cat> -18 births are unhealthy and likely to be fatal
2008-03-06 23:42 < zocky> no they're not :)
2008-03-06 23:43 < quanticle> White_Cat: Not necessarily.
2008-03-06 23:43 < Gracenotes> ew, civilization
2008-03-06 23:43 < Gracenotes> silly concept, really
2008-03-06 23:43 < White_Cat> both to the mother and baby
2008-03-06 23:43 < White_Cat> zocky without any medical care it is
2008-03-06 23:43 < nokmar> Gracenotes: that's a terrible thought
2008-03-06 23:43 < Demi> there's a pretty sizable risk associated with childbirth, whatever the age, for humans
2008-03-06 23:43 < quanticle> White_Cat: Remember, for the vast majority of human history, females have been married *before* 18 years of age.
2008-03-06 23:43 < zocky> White_Cat, most women had their first child before 18 traditionally
2008-03-06 23:43 < zocky> most of them didn't die
2008-03-06 23:43 < nokmar> without civilization we wouldn't have many things
2008-03-06 23:43 < White_Cat> zocky yes
2008-03-06 23:43 < nokmar> like pie and cake
2008-03-06 23:43 < zocky> so it's not "likely fatal"
2008-03-06 23:43 < White_Cat> and they had some sort of medical care
2008-03-06 23:44 < Ceiling_Cat> So wednesday, I stayed in my office until 9:30 PM working on my advisor's request to do "dataflow diagrams"
2008-03-06 23:44 < White_Cat> not cave man care
2008-03-06 23:44 < Ceiling_Cat> I showed him the next day, and he said he didn't want dataflow diagrams, he just wanted "flow" diagrams
2008-03-06 23:44 < Gracenotes> nokmar: but do you have to view the whole of human progress in terms of what's proper and civil?
2008-03-06 23:44 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Y'mean flow charts?
2008-03-06 23:44 < White_Cat> below 16 is really probematic
2008-03-06 23:44 < White_Cat> 16-18 is a grey area
2008-03-06 23:44 < Ceiling_Cat> this one syllable is the difference between 6 minutes of work and 6 hours of it
2008-03-06 23:44 < zocky> you don't need medical care for birth for healthy young women
2008-03-06 23:44 < nokmar> Gracenotes: honestly, the only things I care about are the pie, the cake, and the cookies
2008-03-06 23:44 < Gracenotes> "civilization", iirc, didn't exist as a word before the 19th century
2008-03-06 23:44 * Ceiling_Cat was not pleased
2008-03-06 23:44 < White_Cat> so if the average life was mere 18 years youd have problems
2008-03-06 23:44 < Gracenotes> it may have been 18th
2008-03-06 23:44 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - no, dataflow
2008-03-06 23:44 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Did you give him the data flow diagrams and tell him to deal with it?
2008-03-06 23:44 < Demi> zocky - that depends on the unusual circumstances you want to cover
2008-03-06 23:44 < White_Cat> zocky after giving brith do you think she could hunt?
2008-03-06 23:45 < Ceiling_Cat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow
2008-03-06 23:45 < White_Cat> or tke care of self
2008-03-06 23:45 < zocky> bellow 14 is realyl problematic, 14-16 is a gray area, and girls older than 16 are perfectly capable of giving birth to healthy children.
2008-03-06 23:45 < Demi> you don't need medical care for a broken bone, either
2008-03-06 23:45 < nokmar> Ceiling_Cat: ownage.
2008-03-06 23:45 < Demi> but that doesn't mean that it's not a good idea
2008-03-06 23:45 < White_Cat> cave men didnt stick to each other very well
2008-03-06 23:45 < zocky> there's plenty of reasons why not having kids at that age is a good idea, but health risks are not one of them
2008-03-06 23:45 < Ceiling_Cat> well, it did fluff out my thesis another half-dozen pages
2008-03-06 23:45 < Ceiling_Cat> so when he suggested I remove them, I flatly refused
2008-03-06 23:45 < Ceiling_Cat> no way I was going to waste that work
2008-03-06 23:45 < nokmar> by the way, is there a fast way to check the number of cores in use w/ Cyclops64?
2008-03-06 23:45 < quanticle> White_Cat: Who says? There's plenty of evidence to say that cavemen formed tribes and primitive societies.
2008-03-06 23:46 < AppleBoy> video killed the radio star
2008-03-06 23:46 < Demi> Ceiling_Cat - are you sure you don't want to save them for a future paper?
2008-03-06 23:46 < quanticle> Heck, even chimps form tribes.
2008-03-06 23:46 < Demi> you can get a lot of mileage out of the "variations on my thesis" thing
2008-03-06 23:46 < zocky> "cavemen" were pretty much like us in almost all respects
2008-03-06 23:46 < Ceiling_Cat> Demi - I might just do that
2008-03-06 23:46 < Ceiling_Cat> the pseudocode to describe the benchmark I've created is very, very useful
2008-03-06 23:46 < zocky> the idea that society or family or interpersonal relationships were invented is silly
2008-03-06 23:46 < quanticle> zocky: Most of our instincts and subconcious impulses are unchanged from prehistoric times.
2008-03-06 23:47 < Demi> zocky - they were discovered one day when someone accidentally left their sick grandma in the cave...
2008-03-06 23:47 < Demi> (i always love these "accidental" anecdotes for the origin of human activities and technologies)
2008-03-06 23:47 < White_Cat> zocky I despise cavemen
2008-03-06 23:47 < Demi> someone accidentally left some seeds outside their cave, inventing agriculture...
2008-03-06 23:47 < bumm13> Grandma Groomfsnortka
2008-03-06 23:47 < White_Cat> they carry big stiks and hit random animals in the head
2008-03-06 23:48 < Demi> and they advertise car insurance
2008-03-06 23:48 < White_Cat> and they die on contact woth any one of them and even fire
2008-03-06 23:48 < Gracenotes> Demi: my history teacher credits the invention of agriculture to waste produced by eating seeds
2008-03-06 23:48 < bumm13> heh
2008-03-06 23:48 < zocky> Demi, yes, and language was invented by an ancient philosopher who couldn't disprove his rival's latest theses by throwing more shit at him
2008-03-06 23:48 < gwern> 'The Automated Prayer Project, written by Javaman, is "a VT420 connected to a Sun Ultra5 via a serial cable which displays the output of a continuously running program. The signaling rate is limited to 9600 baud. The program itself cycles through the Rosary, displaying a new individual prayer once every thirty seconds. Each individual prayer is then sent out via UDP to a random machine on the Internet on a random port."'
2008-03-06 23:48 < quanticle> zocky: Society might have been invented, but there is strong evidence to indicate that family and interpersonal relationships are hardwired into our brain. Grouping of brainpower, after all, is our most significant evolutionary advantage.
2008-03-06 23:48 < Gracenotes> the seeds survive, and fertilizer causes plants to grow
2008-03-06 23:48 < nokmar> or must I test every core individually?
2008-03-06 23:48 < Demi> zocky - hurled shit is like XML; if it doesn't solve your problem, you aren't using enough of it
2008-03-06 23:48 < zvook> oh god. i just lost an article i was working on pretty much all day.
2008-03-06 23:49 < zvook> cry for me.
2008-03-06 23:49 < quanticle> zocky: There's also lots of evidence to suggest that language is hardwired as well.
2008-03-06 23:49 < Demi> Gracenotes - why do we need a "just so" story about it? how about people--a lot of people--figured some shit out?
2008-03-06 23:49 * quanticle cries for zvook
2008-03-06 23:49 < White_Cat> zvook: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistorik
2008-03-06 23:49 < zocky> quanticle, of course it's hardwired
2008-03-06 23:49 < zocky> quanticle, alternatives are silly
2008-03-06 23:49 < Gracenotes> Demi: well, it's speculation. Historians are interested in that sort of thing, even if it is faintly mythological.
2008-03-06 23:50 < quanticle> zocky: Yeah, but until very recently there was very little evidence to actually prove that tendency for language was hardwired. Also remember that, for a long time, the tabula rasa theory of development was the preferred one.
2008-03-06 23:51 < zocky> quanticle, it was much talked about in social sciences, and it was the standard kind of social sciences they taught in elementary and secondary schools, but I thnk everrybody knew it was crap all along
2008-03-06 23:51 < zocky> it was more ideology than science
2008-03-06 23:51 < quanticle> I'm not going to disagree.
2008-03-06 23:51 < Demi> there's some evidence that language development needs socialization to proceed
2008-03-06 23:52 < Demi> (which doesn't make it less "hardwired", but is interesting)
2008-03-06 23:52 < quanticle> The idea of any being being a *completely* blank state at birth is pretty preposterous.
2008-03-06 23:52 < quanticle> Demi: Right, we're hardwired for language, but the actual choice of language depends on socialization.
2008-03-06 23:52 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat
2008-03-06 23:52 < White_Cat> you around?
2008-03-06 23:53 < zocky> ...since it would be impractical to encode hundreds of thousands of words into DNA
2008-03-06 23:53 < White_Cat> zocky depedns on the dna
2008-03-06 23:53 < White_Cat> and how you interprete it
2008-03-06 23:53 < zocky> you don't
2008-03-06 23:53 < White_Cat> in star trek they put an entire holographic projection
2008-03-06 23:53 < White_Cat> if it is on star trek it must be true
2008-03-06 23:53 < zocky> it interprets itself by building a protein membrane (i.e. you) around it
2008-03-06 23:53 < Demi> quanticle - well, the development of any language at all. It seems like feral children can't really learn language as we would expect them to.
2008-03-06 23:54 < quanticle> White_Cat: You lost the argument the moment you mentioned Trek.
2008-03-06 23:54 < White_Cat> Demi well
2008-03-06 23:54 < zocky> Demi, actually, they can
2008-03-06 23:54 < zocky> Demi, if they have friends, that is
2008-03-06 23:54 < White_Cat> what about the bird boy they discovered in russia
2008-03-06 23:54 < White_Cat> poor thing was forced to live like a bird and can only communicate with them
2008-03-06 23:54 < zocky> Demi, if they're completely alone at the time brain is prepared to learn a native language, it's very hard for them to learn it later
2008-03-06 23:55 < quanticle> Demi: Well, there's a window of opportunity. If a language isn't imprinted before a certain age, the brain centers for that ability sort of wither away.
2008-03-06 23:55 < Demi> zocky - that's what i'm referring to
2008-03-06 23:55 < White_Cat> zocky not that hard
2008-03-06 23:55 < White_Cat> children can learn languags wuth ease untill the age of 12
2008-03-06 23:55 < White_Cat> and can still learn it till death
2008-03-06 23:55 < zocky> White_Cat, you're talking about a different thing
2008-03-06 23:55 < zocky> you can learn a language as an adult
2008-03-06 23:55 < White_Cat> oh?
2008-03-06 23:56 < White_Cat> and as a child
2008-03-06 23:56 < zocky> but very few people can learn a language *natively* as adults
2008-03-06 23:56 < White_Cat> easier as a child
2008-03-06 23:56 < White_Cat> zocky well
2008-03-06 23:56 < White_Cat> depends on exposure
2008-03-06 23:56 < zocky> White_Cat, depends exclusivley on the talent
2008-03-06 23:56 < White_Cat> and your own native toung
2008-03-06 23:57 < White_Cat> zocky thats an extra
2008-03-06 23:57 < zocky> i think henry kissinger has been exposed to english enough, wouldn't you say?
2008-03-06 23:57 < White_Cat> someone speaking a rich language can learn others with ease
2008-03-06 23:57 < zocky> yet it would be a stretch to call him a native speaker
2008-03-06 23:57 < White_Cat> rich in sounds
2008-03-06 23:57 < White_Cat> spanish for example is not very rich
2008-03-06 23:57 < zocky> White_Cat, no, that's just an illusion that everybody has about their own language and other languages
2008-03-06 23:58 < White_Cat> and has many unique sounds
2008-03-06 23:58 < Demi> zocky - what do you mean by "learn a language natively as adults"? what would that mean?
2008-03-06 23:58 < quanticle> White_Cat: What do you mean by rich?
2008-03-06 23:58 < zocky> Demi, learn to speak it in a way which makes them undetectable as foreigners/second language speakers to native speakers
2008-03-06 23:58 < White_Cat> zocky europen languages such aas italian and sanish are compatible thouh
2008-03-06 23:58 < zocky> White_Cat, no, they aren't
2008-03-06 23:59 < White_Cat> spanish and english - not so compatible
2008-03-06 23:59 < quanticle> Yeah, because they're all based on Latin.
2008-03-06 23:59 < zocky> you just think they are because you're not a native speaker and can't tell
2008-03-06 23:59 < White_Cat> zocky someone who knows italian can learn spanish with relative ease
2008-03-06 23:59 < zocky> White_Cat, yes, but the native speakers will still be able to tell he's a foreigner
2008-03-06 23:59 < White_Cat> unlike someone who only knows chinese
2008-03-06 23:59 < White_Cat> zocky well yes
2008-03-06 23:59 < Demi> zocky - yeah, different people seem to have different abilities in this regard, i don't know if it's effort or innate ability or what
2008-03-06 23:59 < White_Cat> thats a human ability
2008-03-07 00:00 < White_Cat> but he can talk as if he is a native vocabloury and grammer-wise
2008-03-07 00:00 * Lubaf speaks perfect nonsense.
2008-03-07 00:00 < quanticle> There's a big divide in European languages: Romance, vs. Germanic. German, Dutch, English (to some extent) and the Scandinavian languages are Germanic. Italian, French, Spanish, etc. are Romance.
2008-03-07 00:00 < Lubaf> Alongside English.
2008-03-07 00:00 < zocky> quanticle, you mean in western european languages
2008-03-07 00:00 < Lubaf> Reijfdiadjklvjo, asdfjiojvz fjasdj jdisfoa!
2008-03-07 00:00 < White_Cat> enlish is a fictional language
2008-03-07 00:00 < zocky> the largest group in europe is slavic
2008-03-07 00:01 < quanticle> zocky: Right. I'm not including any of the Slavic countries.
2008-03-07 00:01 < Gracenotes> Lubaf: ew, of course not
2008-03-07 00:01 < White_Cat> zocky slavics go as far in as asia
2008-03-07 00:01 < Gracenotes> SLAVS UNITE
2008-03-07 00:01 < Gracenotes> PANSLAVISM IS ALIVE AGAIN
2008-03-07 00:01 < zocky> White_Cat, just a minority of russians live in asia
2008-03-07 00:01 < NedScott> I just discovered {{tl|box}}
2008-03-07 00:01 < Lubaf> Gracenotes: Fjioawe adfkljasdf ajdfspoavhcop vczxnjk.
2008-03-07 00:01 < White_Cat> Gracenotes they did
2008-03-07 00:01 < zocky> the vast majority of all slavs live in europe
2008-03-07 00:01 < White_Cat> then USSR broke
2008-03-07 00:01 < Lubaf> Fjioadsfjjoi asdfkljhb zvcxhoib afdijo jo joafsdji lkjasdf?
2008-03-07 00:01 < NedScott> so easy to remember..
2008-03-07 00:01 < NedScott> so fresh and full of life
2008-03-07 00:02 < quanticle> Of course, once you get to Asia, you have even more diversity. You have the Sanskrit based languages of India, the dialects of Chinese and Japanese, and the various hybrid languages of SE Asia.
2008-03-07 00:02 < Lubaf> Of course, the written languages all suck, since they're mainly based on Chinese.
2008-03-07 00:02 < zocky> Gracenotes, we're in a cooling off period now. we'll start loving each others in some 10-20 years, and then we'll kill each others again in 50 years.
2008-03-07 00:02 < Lubaf> Kana rules, Katakana sucks!
2008-03-07 00:02 < Lubaf> Or is it the other way around?
2008-03-07 00:03 < Lubaf> Either way, Romanji is in the middle.
2008-03-07 00:03 < Demi> hey, it's all indo-european
2008-03-07 00:03 < Demi> i mean, the cool languages
2008-03-07 00:03 < zocky> Demi, yes, the languages of the aryan race are clearly superior
2008-03-07 00:04 < White_Cat> Lubaf the what?
2008-03-07 00:04 < White_Cat> katakana is a kana
2008-03-07 00:04 < Lubaf> White_Cat: What's the phonetic one, than?
2008-03-07 00:04 < quanticle> Lubaf: Well, not in India. In India, the written languages are mainly based off Sanskrit.
2008-03-07 00:04 < White_Cat> as is hirgana
2008-03-07 00:04 < White_Cat> you mean kanji
2008-03-07 00:04 < Lubaf> Kanji rules, kana sucks, than.
2008-03-07 00:04 < quanticle> I thought phonetic was katakana
2008-03-07 00:04 < zocky> they're not "based off sanskrit"
2008-03-07 00:04 < White_Cat> Lubaf kanji represents ideas
2008-03-07 00:05 < Lubaf> My mistake.
2008-03-07 00:05 < White_Cat> hiragana and katakana represents sounds
2008-03-07 00:05 < zocky> they're related to sanskrit, some of them descended from it, some of them not
2008-03-07 00:05 < Lubaf> It's the other way around.
2008-03-07 00:05 < Lubaf> I keep confusing the two.
2008-03-07 00:05 < White_Cat> hiragana and katakana both sound the same
2008-03-07 00:05 < White_Cat> but katakana is used for foreign words
2008-03-07 00:05 < Lubaf> The phonetic one rules, the Chinese one sucks.
2008-03-07 00:05 < White_Cat> hiragana for native
2008-03-07 00:05 < quanticle> zocky: Well, yeah. In the same way that many west European languages are descended from Latin and hybridized with other languages.
2008-03-07 00:05 < White_Cat> Lubaf it isnt exclusively chinese
2008-03-07 00:05 < Lubaf> White_Cat: I know that.
2008-03-07 00:05 < White_Cat> the chinese and japanese exchanged these characters
2008-03-07 00:06 < Lubaf> It's just that anything based on written Chinese sucks.
2008-03-07 00:06 < White_Cat> and hiragana/katakana as well
2008-03-07 00:06 < yao_ziyuan> suppose i want to find a wiki that organize free components that i can use in my own software
2008-03-07 00:06 < White_Cat> Lubaf how about indian writing?
2008-03-07 00:06 < Lubaf> If you can't make it out from 30 feet away, it's not a good writing system.
2008-03-07 00:06 < yao_ziyuan> and i use wikipedia as an entry point
2008-03-07 00:06 < yao_ziyuan> and i go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_component
2008-03-07 00:06 < Demi> wikipeida probably isn't the best way to find things like that... it's explicitly not a directory
2008-03-07 00:06 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: What do you mean? Do you want an index of F/OSS software?
2008-03-07 00:07 < yao_ziyuan> actually, this is a general problem: if i am a domain expert wanting to find a domain wiki, like if i'm a chemist and i go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_elements
2008-03-07 00:07 < Lubaf> White_Cat: Sanskrit style?
2008-03-07 00:07 < Lubaf> Sucks too.
2008-03-07 00:07 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: not an index of, but a wiki of
2008-03-07 00:07 < White_Cat> Lubaf then you hate numbers
2008-03-07 00:07 < White_Cat> they are inidan in origin
2008-03-07 00:07 < White_Cat> tho atabs are attributed to them
2008-03-07 00:07 < Lubaf> White_Cat: I hate any writing system that can't be used for road signage.
2008-03-07 00:07 < quanticle> Lubaf: If you can't make it out from 30ft away, your font isn't very good.
2008-03-07 00:07 < yao_ziyuan> for chemical elements, wikipedia already does well in documenting every element
2008-03-07 00:07 < Lubaf> quanticle: Chinese fails that test either way.
2008-03-07 00:07 < White_Cat> Lubaf even arbic is used on signs
2008-03-07 00:08 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: Right, but how would that be different from an editable index?
2008-03-07 00:08 < zocky> yao_ziyuan, chemical elements differ from OS components in one important way: making new ones is very hard
2008-03-07 00:08 < quanticle> Lubaf: I'm not sure the Chinese agree...
2008-03-07 00:08 < yao_ziyuan> index? by index do you mean a linear list?
2008-03-07 00:08 < White_Cat> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&resnum=0&q=chinese%20road%20sign&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
2008-03-07 00:08 < yao_ziyuan> zocky: haha
2008-03-07 00:08 < White_Cat> Lubaf hmm
2008-03-07 00:08 < White_Cat> you fail
2008-03-07 00:08 < White_Cat> zocky making new ones is easy
2008-03-07 00:09 < White_Cat> making stable ones that dont blow in your face
2008-03-07 00:09 < White_Cat> now thats hard
2008-03-07 00:09 < zocky> White_Cat, you'll have a dozen ready for me by monday?
2008-03-07 00:09 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: I mean something on the order of a directory of open source software, perhaps with attached reviews.
2008-03-07 00:09 < White_Cat> http://www.econ.ucla.edu/doepke/pictures/israel/roadsign.jpg
2008-03-07 00:09 < White_Cat> zocky only if you pay me
2008-03-07 00:09 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: if you mean a directory of fixed categories, sourceforge.net already has a directory
2008-03-07 00:10 < Lubaf> Well, Hebrew works on roadsigns.
2008-03-07 00:10 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: Right, so how would your wiki idea be different from that?
2008-03-07 00:10 < Lubaf> Who'da thunk?
2008-03-07 00:10 < White_Cat> Lubaf! Jew!
2008-03-07 00:10 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: a wiki is more flexible than a fixed directory
2008-03-07 00:10 < White_Cat> :P
2008-03-07 00:10 < zocky> White_Cat, agreed. if you have a dozen new elements ready by monday, I'll pay you a billion euros, and if you don't, you'll pay me 1% of that sum in damages. ok?
2008-03-07 00:10 < quanticle> Lubaf: How's hebrew on roadsigns that much more difficult than arabic or hindi on roadsigns?
2008-03-07 00:10 < yao_ziyuan> quanticle: you can create new subdirectories and cross-references very cheaply
2008-03-07 00:11 < Lubaf> quanticle: Cleaner lines.
2008-03-07 00:11 < White_Cat> zocky I need the pay in advance
2008-03-07 00:11 < White_Cat> I can pay the 1% back if I fail
2008-03-07 00:11 < zocky> White_Cat, if you agree to those terms and can prove that you have the 10 million euros to pay the damages, I can get you a billion dollars in advance
2008-03-07 00:11 < Lubaf> If it's got a bunch of curves in it, it's not good for road signage.
2008-03-07 00:11 < zocky> *euros
2008-03-07 00:12 < White_Cat> euros
2008-03-07 00:12 < zocky> since dollars aren't worth much these days
2008-03-07 00:12 < yao_ziyuan> i'm thinking about how to foster domain-specific wikis
2008-03-07 00:12 < White_Cat> not dollars
2008-03-07 00:12 < yao_ziyuan> i think wikipedia can boost that
2008-03-07 00:12 < quanticle> Lubaf: I disagree. There are plenty of Hindi roadsigns in India. The number of curves hasn't been an issue.
2008-03-07 00:12 < Lubaf> quanticle: Pix or it never happened.
2008-03-07 00:12 < zocky> lubaf is generally right on this
2008-03-07 00:13 < zocky> the latin alphabet is indeed geometrically superior to most other writing systems
2008-03-07 00:13 < Demi> it seems like india would have problems other than script with such road signs
2008-03-07 00:13 < zocky> especially capital letters
2008-03-07 00:13 < Demi> namely, that even for the common languages like hindi, urdu, tamil, huge numbers of people don't speak or read it
2008-03-07 00:14 < zocky> almost all capital latin letters have very distinct shapes
2008-03-07 00:15 < yao_ziyuan> wikia is blocked in china :(
2008-03-07 00:16 < yao_ziyuan> i found examples like http://delphi.wikia.com/wiki/3rd_Party_Components
2008-03-07 00:16 < Demi> CG DOQ FE MN UV KX
2008-03-07 00:19 < yao_ziyuan> if i do this, will it be deleted?
2008-03-07 00:19 < quanticle> Lubaf: Here you go: http://www.angelfire.com/in2/fredisdead/images/PO_KGF2001_RoadSigns.jpg
2008-03-07 00:19 < yao_ziyuan> create a new wiki project with wikia, named "A Wiki for Software Components"
2008-03-07 00:19 < NedScott> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0312347/
2008-03-07 00:19 < yao_ziyuan> and then link to this new wiki from wikipedia's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_component
2008-03-07 00:20 < quanticle> Lubaf: Its amazing how no one seems to take high-res photos of road signs.
2008-03-07 00:20 < NedScott> 1910's porn
2008-03-07 00:20 < NedScott> you think there's a torrent for it?
2008-03-07 00:20 < Lubaf> quanticle: That actually proves my case.
2008-03-07 00:20 < quanticle> NedScott: I'd be surprised if much of it survived?
2008-03-07 00:20 < quanticle> *.
2008-03-07 00:20 < Lubaf> Get up. Walk 10 feet away from your monitor.
2008-03-07 00:20 < NedScott> I must get it on LASER DISC off of ebay
2008-03-07 00:20 < Lubaf> Which script is more legible?
2008-03-07 00:21 < quanticle> Lubaf: Its because the road signs are shrunk. I doubt if I could read the *English* from 10 ft.
2008-03-07 00:21 < zocky> Demi, only C and G are somewhat similar visually
2008-03-07 00:21 < Demi> if there is a bug on it, E looks like F
2008-03-07 00:22 < ijustam> so, re: wikiprojects... when something gets tagged... is there someone who goes through at a time and "regrades" a tagged page?
2008-03-07 00:22 < Demi> also Q, 0 and O look similar, though not in context
2008-03-07 00:22 < NedScott> some projects even plan re-evaluations
2008-03-07 00:22 < Lubaf> quanticle: Legibility is the measure here, not readability.
2008-03-07 00:22 < quanticle> Demi: Also, if you've got issue differentiating O and 0, you're choosing a bad font.
2008-03-07 00:22 < zocky> some numbers and letters do look alike
2008-03-07 00:22 < zocky> O0 S5 Z2
2008-03-07 00:22 < quanticle> Lubaf: What do you mean? Its not like road signs are handwritten.
2008-03-07 00:22 < Demi> quanticle - 0-slash is mostly technical, you don't really see that in signage
2008-03-07 00:23 < NedScott> [[WP:ANIME]] has been regrading a bunch of articles, or so my watchlist leads me to believe
2008-03-07 00:23 < Demi> and by "signage" i mean "signs"
2008-03-07 00:23 < Lubaf> quanticle: Be that as it may, if you can make out the shape of the words, you can make a guess as to what they say.
2008-03-07 00:23 < ijustam> NedScott: nice to know :D
2008-03-07 00:24 < quanticle> Lubaf: You can do the same for Hindi. Its a phonetic language too, y'know...
2008-03-07 00:24 < quanticle> Lubaf: It all looks the same to you because you can't speak it.
2008-03-07 00:24 < quanticle> I can't speak it either, but I do know enough to be able to tell letters apart.
2008-03-07 00:24 < Lubaf> quanticle: No, they all look the same because they have that fucking bar over the words.
2008-03-07 00:24 < quanticle> Lubaf: Again, only to you.
2008-03-07 00:24 < quanticle> Native speakers don't have this problem.
2008-03-07 00:25 < yao_ziyuan> i found one: http://www.codecodex.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
2008-03-07 00:25 < quanticle> ]Also, the bar serves to unify the letters in the word in a rather pleasing manner.
2008-03-07 00:25 < yao_ziyuan> amazing. i think nobody will object me if i put this link on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_component
2008-03-07 00:26 < Demi> quanticle - everyone knows all asian letters look alike!
2008-03-07 00:26 < zocky> which is the most complex latin letter?
2008-03-07 00:26 < zocky> G?
2008-03-07 00:26 < Lubaf> quanticle: Speaking don't enter into it.
2008-03-07 00:26 < zocky> compare with श
2008-03-07 00:26 < quanticle> Demi: Heh. Everyone also knows that all west European letters are the same. Oh wait...
2008-03-07 00:26 < zocky> or स्ख
2008-03-07 00:26 < Lubaf> That bar over the letters makes them hard to make out.
2008-03-07 00:27 < quanticle> Lubaf: Only because you can't read the damn language.
2008-03-07 00:27 < yao_ziyuan> 噢事特！
2008-03-07 00:27 < Demi> complex in what way? K and H require three strokes
2008-03-07 00:27 < zocky> quanticle, no, there's an objective way to measure this: count the strokes
2008-03-07 00:27 < Lubaf> quanticle: If one ignores diacritics, they are the same for the most part.
2008-03-07 00:27 < yao_ziyuan> this is chinese transcription for 'o shit'
2008-03-07 00:27 < Lubaf> quanticle: I repeat: Speaking the language doesn't enter into it.
2008-03-07 00:28 < Lubaf> The bar makes the letters harder to make out.
2008-03-07 00:28 < Demi> do chinese readers even read it whole glyph by glyph as we read letters? or do they absorb all the radicals at once
2008-03-07 00:28 < Lubaf> Full stop.
2008-03-07 00:28 < Lubaf> Have a nice day.
2008-03-07 00:28 < Lubaf> Demi: Neither.
2008-03-07 00:28 < yao_ziyuan> ，，，。。。
2008-03-07 00:28 < yao_ziyuan> ；；；
2008-03-07 00:28 < quanticle> Lubaf: If it was such a big deal, then there'd be a different system for road signs...
2008-03-07 00:28 < Lubaf> They have to go to their mental dictionaries for each and every glyph.
2008-03-07 00:28 < zocky> Demi, they can't absorb all the radicals at once, no more than we read whole words at once
2008-03-07 00:28 < Lubaf> quanticle: AND THERE IS.
2008-03-07 00:28 < Demi> actually that's exactly what we do
2008-03-07 00:29 < Lubaf> ENGLISH.
2008-03-07 00:29 < zocky> Demi, no, that's a common mistaken belief which has been disproven
2008-03-07 00:29 < yao_ziyuan> Demi: english readers don't recognize a full english word
2008-03-07 00:29 < yao_ziyuan> they skip the middle
2008-03-07 00:29 < quanticle> Lubaf: You sure that's not because of the hundred year british occupation?
2008-03-07 00:29 < Lubaf> ALL THOSE SIGNS HAD ENGLISH ON THEM.
2008-03-07 00:29 < quanticle> Lubaf: BRITISH
2008-03-07 00:29 < yao_ziyuan> chinese readers do likewise by skipping insignificant strokes in a characters
2008-03-07 00:29 < Demi> yao_ziyuan - yes, eaxtlcy
2008-03-07 00:29 < Lubaf> quanticle: It doesn't matter, really. Hindi sucks as a signage language.
2008-03-07 00:30 < Lubaf> That's all there is to it.
2008-03-07 00:30 < Demi> english readability (anyway) isn't affected by altering letter order within the word, people read the terminal letters
2008-03-07 00:30 < Lubaf> There is no real objective argument for it.
2008-03-07 00:30 < Demi> they don't piece words together letter by letter
2008-03-07 00:30 < yao_ziyuan> Demi: 'exactly' is too short to skip
2008-03-07 00:30 < Lubaf> Demi: And size.
2008-03-07 00:30 < Lubaf> Don't forget size.
2008-03-07 00:30 < quanticle> Lubaf: How so? How can you measure it objectively? It seems that you'll always favor your native language for readability?
2008-03-07 00:30 < zocky> Demi, ear oyu rues?
2008-03-07 00:30 < yao_ziyuan> Demi: "ili" can be skipped for "readability"
2008-03-07 00:30 < Demi> zocky - you have mistaken the point
2008-03-07 00:30 < Demi> they read the terminal letters
2008-03-07 00:30 < Lubaf> quanticle: In this case, I don't need to.
2008-03-07 00:30 < zocky> Demi, yes, I see
2008-03-07 00:31 < Lubaf> That damn bar over each word obscures the letters.
2008-03-07 00:31 < Lubaf> Thus, lower legibility.
2008-03-07 00:31 < Demi> [21:30:15] Demi: english readability (anyway) isn't affected by altering letter order within the word, people read the terminal letters <- please read again what i said
2008-03-07 00:31 < Lubaf> It doesn't matter whether I'm a native speaker or not.
2008-03-07 00:31 < quanticle> Lubaf: How can you say that when you don't even know what the letters are?
2008-03-07 00:31 < gwern> 'Yes, sharing a password is pretty terrible security. But as long as a strong password is chosen, at least some risk is mitigated. So what highly-secure, completely uncrackable password did Golficionados choose? "flog." "Golf" spelled backwards. But hey, it's backwards, thereby making it invulnerable to a dictionary atta- oh, wait.'
2008-03-07 00:31 < yao_ziyuan> many simplified chinese chars are made by removing insignificant strokes from the corresponding traditional char
2008-03-07 00:31 < Lubaf> I appreciate Hebrew and Kana as road signage languages.
2008-03-07 00:32 < Lubaf> quanticle: BECAUSE OF THE DAMN BAR ON TOP OF THE WORDS.
2008-03-07 00:32 < yao_ziyuan> like: 門 -> 门
2008-03-07 00:32 < quanticle> gwern: Heh. I read that one too.
2008-03-07 00:32 < Lubaf> DO YOU UNDERSTAND? THE BAR OBSCURES THE LETTERS.
2008-03-07 00:32 < yao_ziyuan> which means 'door'
2008-03-07 00:32 < quanticle> Lubaf: You don't know what the letters are, so how can you say that they're obscured?
2008-03-07 00:32 < zocky> Demi, I can sltil cosnurtct sectnnees taht yuo'll need to raed ticwe, and work mentally on decoding each wordl
2008-03-07 00:32 < Lubaf> DO I HAVE TO GET OUT MY ENGLISH-IDIOT DICTIONARY HERE?
2008-03-07 00:33 < Demi> Lubaf - how do you know? how do you know it doesn't make them more clear by making diacriticals and ascenders more obvious?
2008-03-07 00:33 < quanticle> Lubaf: Saying the same thing more loudly does not make it any more true.
2008-03-07 00:33 < yao_ziyuan> too bad i don't have a good proxy to edit wp
2008-03-07 00:33 < yao_ziyuan> tor and freeg@te are blocked
2008-03-07 00:33 < Demi> Lubaf - are you so bad at explaining yourself you have to insult people?
2008-03-07 00:33 < Krimpet> Lubaf: enough caps, please
2008-03-07 00:33 < Lubaf> Demi: He seems to be missing the point, is the thing.
2008-03-07 00:33 < Demi> zocky - i had no trouble reading that
2008-03-07 00:33 < Lubaf> The bar creates a very very obvious visibility problem.
2008-03-07 00:33 < Krimpet> caps lock is cruise control for kickban :)
2008-03-07 00:33 < Demi> Lubaf - you haven't provided more of a point, except by repeating it
2008-03-07 00:33 < yao_ziyuan> can anyone do me a favor? edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_component, adding an external link http://www.codecodex.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page there.
2008-03-07 00:34 < zocky> Demi, you still needed more time than for a normal sentence
2008-03-07 00:34 < quanticle> Lubaf: Again, how can you tell that the bar creates an "obvious" visibility problem? The problem certainly isn't obvious to me.
2008-03-07 00:34 < zocky> i don't think the bar is a problem
2008-03-07 00:34 < Lubaf> quanticle: That's because you've never looked at a sign in the rain.
2008-03-07 00:35 < Lubaf> Or other poor visibility conditions.
2008-03-07 00:35 < zocky> it's more that all letters have a lot of strokes, which means that the strokes have to be relatively short, which means they're harder to see from far away
2008-03-07 00:35 < yao_ziyuan> lol. i still have windows xp in my virtualbox. so i can use another proxy system that works with wikipedia :)
2008-03-07 00:35 < Lubaf> zocky: That too.
2008-03-07 00:35 < yao_ziyuan> LONG LIVE WINDOWS!
2008-03-07 00:35 < Demi> you might as well assert that having all the letterforms in a uniform size cell obscures readability
2008-03-07 00:35 < Demi> like they should all be different colors and sizes
2008-03-07 00:36 < quanticle> Lubaf: I'm from India. I've seen plenty of Hindi signs in rain and darkness, and I didn't have any issues making them out. Actually reading them is a different matter, since I'm not a native Hindi speaker, but still...
2008-03-07 00:36 * Demi invites everyone to view his enormous As
2008-03-07 00:36 < Lubaf> quanticle: Anyway, that still doesn't get over zocky's point.
2008-03-07 00:36 < Lubaf> Many lines = smaller lines = less legible.
2008-03-07 00:37 < quanticle> Lubaf: Again, you're assuming that *all* the lines are equally significant.
2008-03-07 00:37 < yao_ziyuan> Demi: what craze are you making? i invite you to my msn/gtalk
2008-03-07 00:37 < Demi> i dunno, the (obvious) word for "ROAD" jumps out at me more than "ROAD" to be honest
2008-03-07 00:38 < zocky> quanticle, च ज ञ य <-- i'd say all the lines in there are significant (or the letters would be the same)
2008-03-07 00:38 < Demi> there appear to be three letters in the Hindi script, each having 1 or 2 strokes, besides the bar, as opposed to R (3) O (1) A (3) D (2)
2008-03-07 00:38 < Demi> i'm not saying one or the other is objectively more readable, but i don't think you can pull the case for one over the other based on mere assertion
2008-03-07 00:38 < yao_ziyuan> why do you guys care about indian script?
2008-03-07 00:38 < zocky> quanticle, they're clearly harder to distinguish from a distance than C J N Y
2008-03-07 00:39 < Demi> yao_ziyuan - right now there is *nothing more important*!
2008-03-07 00:39 < yao_ziyuan> is america transforming india into her new son?
2008-03-07 00:39 < quanticle> zocky: Well, you can remove strokes from Latin letters too. Remove the crossbar from the A, for example, and you'll still be understandable...
2008-03-07 00:39 < Lubaf> yao_ziyuan: Because quanticle insists that Hindi is good for road signage.
2008-03-07 00:39 < Demi> quanticle - i used to write that way, in fact
2008-03-07 00:39 < Lubaf> Which is my bar for whether a script is any good or not.
2008-03-07 00:39 < zocky> quanticle, that's one of the few strokes you can remove
2008-03-07 00:39 < yao_ziyuan> Lubaf: and why is that important in turn?
2008-03-07 00:39 < Demi> it occurs to me that the bar really sets off the things that appear above it
2008-03-07 00:39 < Lubaf> yao_ziyuan: Because that's the way things are on IRC.
2008-03-07 00:40 < zocky> quanticle, can you remove any strokes from च ज ञ य ?
2008-03-07 00:40 < Demi> unlike, say i and l, which are usually distinguished by spelling than by sight
2008-03-07 00:40 * yao_ziyuan thinks naked women are better road signs
2008-03-07 00:40 < Demi> ah, an excellent compromise
2008-03-07 00:40 < Lubaf> Demi: Not really.
2008-03-07 00:40 < Demi> naked women should mean "travel services"
2008-03-07 00:40 < Lubaf> Think of the car wrecks.
2008-03-07 00:40 < Lubaf> Especially on highways.
2008-03-07 00:40 < Demi> hey, risk is everywhere
2008-03-07 00:41 < Demi> outside where i used to work there is an animated billboard that shows videos
2008-03-07 00:41 < Demi> i mean, that can't be a good idea, right?
2008-03-07 00:41 < quanticle> Lubaf: No. I'm not insisting on that. I'm insisting that the *native* *language* is always best for road signs, because that is what the populace knows. There isn't enough difference in the actual legibility of the language to justify using different characters for road signs. In this case, I'm not arguing that Hindi is *better* for road signs than English, just that its not *appreciably* *worse*.
2008-03-07 00:41 < Ceiling_Cat> http://www.destynysphynx.com/images/birdie_chuck_babies/4.5wks_red_boy.jpg
2008-03-07 00:41 < yao_ziyuan> india has no cars.
2008-03-07 00:41 < yao_ziyuan> period.
2008-03-07 00:41 < Ceiling_Cat> =^o.o^=
2008-03-07 00:41 < yao_ziyuan> they use bulls.
2008-03-07 00:41 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: Heh. Been to India lately?
2008-03-07 00:41 < Lubaf> quanticle: And I'm saying that you haven't answered zocky's point.
2008-03-07 00:42 < yao_ziyuan> no. bulls are holy there.
2008-03-07 00:42 < Demi> quanticle - where do you live now?
2008-03-07 00:42 < Ceiling_Cat> http://www.destynysphynx.com/images/birdie_chuck_babies/3days_birdie_and_babies.jpg
2008-03-07 00:42 < quanticle> Demi: The frigid wasteland of Minnesota
2008-03-07 00:42 < yao_ziyuan> i think they use bilingual signs
2008-03-07 00:42 < zocky> Lubaf, quanticle does have a point that signage obviously needs to be in the local language
2008-03-07 00:42 < Demi> quanticle - ah, that's right
2008-03-07 00:42 < Demi> bit of a change in climate
2008-03-07 00:42 < yao_ziyuan> and india really is america's new embodiment
2008-03-07 00:42 < quanticle> yao_ziyuan: Yeah, that's because the British imposed English.
2008-03-07 00:42 < Lubaf> zocky: Fair enough. I'm saying that it's usefulness for road signage is a good way of evaluating a script.
2008-03-07 00:42 < yao_ziyuan> then debate closed
2008-03-07 00:42 < zocky> quanticle, i'm sure you'd love the "bosnian refugee's canadian journal"
2008-03-07 00:43 < Demi> india sort of needs an english, even if english weren't filling that role
2008-03-07 00:43 < quanticle> zocky: The wha...?
2008-03-07 00:43 < yao_ziyuan> india will conquer china
2008-03-07 00:43 < quanticle> Demi: That's true. 18 provincial languages is a nightmare.
2008-03-07 00:43 < zocky> quanticle, starts with "i love canada" and later goes on to say things like "it's snowing. again. in may." and "if I see another fucking moose, I'll kill myself"
2008-03-07 00:43 < yao_ziyuan> and our purity of dna will be contaminated
2008-03-07 00:44 < zocky> quanticle, it was an email that did the rounds around the balkans some years ago.
2008-03-07 00:44 < Demi> yao_ziyuan - they will, because indians are CRAZY for chinese food
2008-03-07 00:44 < quanticle> Demi: Hindi and English are the official national languages, but the other 18 are all recognized by the federal government.
2008-03-07 00:44 < quanticle> zocky: Heh. Brilliang.
2008-03-07 00:44 < quanticle> *Brilliant.
2008-03-07 00:44 < yao_ziyuan> chinese food is poisonous
2008-03-07 00:45 < zocky> yes, that's the latest government policy for controlling the population explosion.
2008-03-07 00:45 < zocky> all food must contain poisions.
2008-03-07 00:46 < quanticle> zocky: Ah, so that's why MSG is so popular! ;)
2008-03-07 00:46 < Demi> bah
2008-03-07 00:46 < Demi> MSG is popular in everything
2008-03-07 00:46 < Demi> sensitivity to it is imaginary, and if you think you're sensitive to it, it's probably because you're racist
2008-03-07 00:47 < zocky> MSG is a chemical weapon for making the masses susceptible to confucianism, I'm told
2008-03-07 00:47 < quanticle> Demi: Right. Its a conspiracy by the Illuminati and the Trilateral Commission to control population...
2008-03-07 00:47 < Demi> you like tomatoes? MSG
2008-03-07 00:47 < Demi> you like chees? MSG
2008-03-07 00:47 < Demi> mushrooms? MSG
2008-03-07 00:47 < Demi> er "cheese"
2008-03-07 00:47 < Demi> chees sounds like a Kraft product
2008-03-07 00:47 < zocky> Demi, the problem is that they put A LOT of it in EVERYTHING which makes everything taste the same
2008-03-07 00:47 < quanticle> Demi: I'm surprised its not a Kraft product...
2008-03-07 00:48 < Demi> i should trademark that, quick
2008-03-07 00:48 < zocky> Demi, also cheesola
2008-03-07 00:49 * Demi markets Xtrem Chees, now with more guarana than Red Bull
2008-03-07 00:49 < zocky> what's that american brand of processed cheese?
2008-03-07 00:50 < Talleyrand> Hello everyone.
2008-03-07 00:50 < Krimpet> easy cheese®?
2008-03-07 00:50 < pengo> "You are more desirable than 97% of 23,340,785 people." . wow.. facebook rocks
2008-03-07 00:50 < Demi> there is more than one--what kind?
2008-03-07 00:50 * Talleyrand smiles.
2008-03-07 00:50 < Demi> easy cheese is the pressurized kind in a can
2008-03-07 00:50 < quanticle> I still wonder how India has managed to hold together until now. I mean, consider it objectively: 18 languages, twice that many ethnicities, no real unified history (India was collection of kingdoms and pricipalities before they were brough under British rule), and religious divisions between the Muslims and the Hindus. I'm surprised every day that the place has made it 50-odd years without Balkanizing.
2008-03-07 00:50 < quanticle> pengo: Heh. Nice.
2008-03-07 00:50 < Demi> Cheez-Whiz comes in a jar you microwave
2008-03-07 00:50 < Demi> Velveeta comes in a brick
2008-03-07 00:51 < quanticle> Demi: And they're all made by Kraft.
2008-03-07 00:51 < Demi> quanticle - yeah, i'm always surprised at the sense of national identity
2008-03-07 00:51 < Talleyrand> I'm wondering if there is there an API to the Wikimedia Commons that would allow me to browse through their art?
2008-03-07 00:51 < Demi> i ask about that and my indian friends are like "Well, but we're all Indians"
2008-03-07 00:51 < pengo> Talleyrand: umm.. maybe
2008-03-07 00:51 < Talleyrand> Ah I should ask over at #wikimedia, they might know more.
2008-03-07 00:52 < pengo> Talleyrand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Creating_a_bot#APIs_for_bots
2008-03-07 00:52 < quanticle> Demi: Yeah, no kidding. India has one of the strongest national identities in the world despite having more divisions than the Balkans or some African countries.
2008-03-07 00:53 < zocky> quanticle, those things are periodic
2008-03-07 00:53 < quanticle> zocky: Hmm? What do you mean?
2008-03-07 00:53 < Demi> quanticle - he means the Balkans are on their period
2008-03-07 00:53 < Talleyrand> Ah perfect pengo! Hmm... I'm not sure exactly if I'd be needing to use the API to push back to MediaWiki, more just about access their vast image database of art pieces.