freenode #wikipedia

2008-03-06 12:45 < NotACow> zvook: ah, yes.
2008-03-06 12:45 * zvook looks up "orthogonal"
2008-03-06 12:45 < zvook> i see.
2008-03-06 12:46 * NotACow likes big words :)
2008-03-06 12:47 < Demi> orthogonal is often misused
2008-03-06 12:47 < NotACow> Demi: used creatively, you mean :)
2008-03-06 12:47 < NotACow> the use of "orthogonal" as a synonym for "independent" is quite common with people who have taken linear algebra :)
2008-03-06 12:48 < zvook> you have an "it" for "is" in your sentence regarding the Foundation
2008-03-06 12:48 < Demi> yes
2008-03-06 12:48 < Demi> but it is also often abused to mean something like "straightforward"
2008-03-06 12:48 < NotACow> zvook: i'll have a look :)
2008-03-06 12:48 < zocky> NotACow, no, a massive multiplayer blog with buses would suck
2008-03-06 12:48 < zocky> :P
2008-03-06 12:48 < NotACow> Demi: that would be wrong :)
2008-03-06 12:48 < NotACow> zocky: depends on who the buses run over
2008-03-06 12:48 < zvook> lol
2008-03-06 12:49 < NotACow> zvook: thanks for the typo note; i've corrected.
2008-03-06 12:50 < NotACow> eek.
2008-03-06 12:50 < NotACow> spellong eerror
2008-03-06 12:53 < NotACow> i will, i imagine, be excoriated for daring to question jimmy's committment to wikipedia
2008-03-06 12:54 < NotACow> tough :)
2008-03-06 12:55 < Demi> eh
2008-03-06 12:55 < Demi> i think your call for radical changes in wikipedia won't be heard as long as people think the encyclopedia itself is more or less fine
2008-03-06 12:56 < rw> telekom fixed the google problem.
2008-03-06 12:56 < RichiH> rw: 'the problem' is that they are trying to force all smaller telcos in germany to pay loads more money for peering
2008-03-06 12:57 < RichiH> so 'fixing' in this context means 'we picked the wrong fight and backpedal on this one'
2008-03-06 12:57 < rw> jap, it prety much has a monopolistic way of doing things
2008-03-06 12:57 < NotACow> Demi: true, but outside of the koolaid-addicted community, you'll find that a lot of people have issues with wikipedia
2008-03-06 12:57 < rw> RichiH, theyre quite dump anyway
2008-03-06 12:58 < Demi> yes, but not often the same one. in fact, there's little in the way of a framework for criticizing wikipedia content in a useful way.
2008-03-06 12:58 < NotACow> Demi: and i'm not trying to convince wikipedians; that is a hopeless cause.
2008-03-06 12:58 < NotACow> Demi: instead, my goal is to convince nonwikipedians to remain nonwikipedians, and to convince people with money that they'd be better off donating it to some other cause.
2008-03-06 12:59 < Demi> yes, but even still... huge numbers of nonwikipedians are clients of wikipedia, it's enormously popular. for those people the proof of its usefulness is in its widespread use.
2008-03-06 12:59 < NotACow> Demi: i don't dispute that wikipedia has use.
2008-03-06 13:00 < NotACow> Demi: on the other hand, a car that only explodes when you go fater than 85 miles an hour is likely useful.
2008-03-06 13:00 < Demi> in other words, this all amounts to a good job showing how ugly the sausage-making business is, but it's not good at showing what negative effect, if any, this has on the taste of the sausage.
2008-03-06 13:00 < NotACow> Demi: it's also dangerous.
2008-03-06 13:00 < Demi> (when i say "this all" i don't just mean your blog, i mean the nebulous complex of wikipedia critics and commentators)
2008-03-06 13:01 < NotACow> Demi: i have little doubt that if someone made a car that was a perfectly suitable car in all respects except that it would explode ina giant fireball if ever driven faster than 85 mph, people would demand it removed from the roads.
2008-03-06 13:01 < Demi> your analogy is breaking down for me
2008-03-06 13:01 < NotACow> Demi: my point is that having utility is not enough to save something
2008-03-06 13:01 < NotACow> Demi: lawn darts have utility.
2008-03-06 13:01 < NotACow> Demi: asbestos has a lot of utility.
2008-03-06 13:02 < NotACow> Demi: thalidomide has utility.
2008-03-06 13:02 < NotACow> a thing can be useful and still be a problem.
2008-03-06 13:02 < NotACow> you're right that there is no good framework for discussing wikipedia critically
2008-03-06 13:03 < NotACow> this is largely because of jimmy's cult
2008-03-06 13:03 < NotACow> which sees any criticism as an attack and reacts in kind
2008-03-06 13:03 < rw> are there any people here still having problems reaching google?
2008-03-06 13:03 < NotACow> rw: mayne you've been 256K'd
2008-03-06 13:04 < Demi> yes, though that might be inherent in the cult of leaders and not necessarily related to jimbo
2008-03-06 13:04 < NotACow> Demi: well, the cult venerates jimmy, whether or not jimmy intended it as such.
2008-03-06 13:04 < Demi> and it's easy to see how that produces bad personal interactions--disaffected editors, quitting, voices that get shouted down
2008-03-06 13:04 < NotACow> Demi: although jimmy certainly seems to enjoy the veneration
2008-03-06 13:04 < Demi> but it would be nice to establish that this has negative effects on the encyclopedia *per se*
2008-03-06 13:05 < NotACow> Demi: i think it does, but i don't have measured numbers to prove it
2008-03-06 13:05 < Demi> beyond the old standbys of "anyone can edit it, therefore what you're reading could be wrong... how can you trust it." which sounds fine, and people often take it as if it should be a self-evident criticism
2008-03-06 13:05 < zvook> there is a subpage of the jimbo wales user page for odes to jimbo. literally. poems.
2008-03-06 13:06 < zvook> snkrsnee has a good one there.
2008-03-06 13:06 < NotACow> Demi: certainly the inability to deal with determined efforts to introduce bias by dedicated parties is impacted.
2008-03-06 13:06 < NotACow> Demi: also, the disharmonious environment will scare off some editors
2008-03-06 13:07 < Demi> well, i think there's a real problem with the mentality of enmity that you point out, but i think i disagree almost exactly with you that it stems from radical openness
2008-03-06 13:07 < NotACow> Demi: you have durova-like incidents, where perfectly legitimate editors are hounded for no good reason
2008-03-06 13:07 < Leslie_S> NotACow hey, i bought a bra from a real life store. :D
2008-03-06 13:07 < Demi> rather, i think it stems from a lack of openness--these things you mention are marked by a perimeter mentality, "us" vs. "them" rhetoric and reticence to reveal in public how one is making decisions
2008-03-06 13:07 < NotACow> Demi: the radical openness means that there is a presumptive right to edit that is difficult to revoke
2008-03-06 13:08 < Demi> the class of people who regard themselves as cops revoke people's rights to edit, in great swathes, all the time
2008-03-06 13:08 < NotACow> Demi: and more specifically editors are not expected to demonstrate that their interest is in benefitting the project if they wish to remain
2008-03-06 13:08 < Demi> semi-protection is more popular than ever
2008-03-06 13:08 < NotACow> Demi: i think much of that is due to the community's reaction to the consequences of radical openness.
2008-03-06 13:08 < Demi> trending away from openness is jimbo's trend (viz. new page creation as a reaction te the siegenthaler affair)
2008-03-06 13:09 < NotACow> you have a community that embraces radical openness while at the same time denying it.
2008-03-06 13:09 < NotACow> community cognitive dissonance
2008-03-06 13:09 < zvook> true.
2008-03-06 13:09 < Demi> right, and i think you're saying the fix is to go ahead and be less open, and i'm saying the fix is to stop denying it :)
2008-03-06 13:10 < ideogram> hypocrisy is basic to the function of society
2008-03-06 13:10 < zvook> i am a fan of the radical openness though, i don't think that is broken as a process
2008-03-06 13:10 < ideogram> any society
2008-03-06 13:10 < NotACow> Demi: see, we agree :)
2008-03-06 13:10 < Demi> to me, wikipedia's problems boil down to ego
2008-03-06 13:10 < NotACow> Demi: yes. and jimmy has one hell of an ego :)
2008-03-06 13:10 < Demi> yes
2008-03-06 13:10 < zvook> however the idea that we are writing articles as free labour for someone's betterment is quite popular, and poisoness.
2008-03-06 13:10 < zvook> ous
2008-03-06 13:10 < NotACow> zvook: i don't mmind writing articles for th betterment of humanity
2008-03-06 13:11 < NotACow> zvook: i'm a bit bothered at doing it for th ebetterment of Jimbo Wales
2008-03-06 13:11 < zvook> i was referring to jimbo, yes :)
2008-03-06 13:11 < zvook> there is a distrust there.
2008-03-06 13:12 < NotACow> i'd be far less bothered if his relationship were more arms-length
2008-03-06 13:12 < Demi> well, for all kinds of reasons it's pretty evident that jimbo wales needs to stop having anything to do with it
2008-03-06 13:12 < Demi> if for no other reason than to be able to hang out the "under new management" sign so people can contribute again
2008-03-06 13:12 < NotACow> Demi: i think that would likely help, yes.
2008-03-06 13:12 < Demi> we offer no incentive to write other than the taste it leaves in people's mouths
2008-03-06 13:13 < NotACow> if the taste is sour, only the masochists will continue
2008-03-06 13:13 < NotACow> and do you really want an encyclopedia written entirely by masochists? :)
2008-03-06 13:13 < Demi> the masochists and the motivated
2008-03-06 13:13 < Demi> and they are both evil in their effect on wikipedia
2008-03-06 13:13 < zvook> won't massive power grabs ensue from displacing jimbo? the arbcom will be godkings.
2008-03-06 13:14 < NotACow> Demi: a more serious issue is coming up with ways to deal with people whose involvement in wikipedia is primarily to forward an agenda.
2008-03-06 13:14 < NotACow> Demi: the commercial agenda people are not a big deal; they will self-limit because of the risk of backlash
2008-03-06 13:14 < Demi> zvook - honestly, people need to start ignoring that thing
2008-03-06 13:14 < NotACow> Demi: it's the emotive agenda people who are the real problem. nationalists, religionists, whatever.
2008-03-06 13:15 < Demi> they've needed te start ignoring it a long time ago
2008-03-06 13:15 < Demi> NotACow - yes, that's what i mean by the motivated
2008-03-06 13:15 < NotACow> Demi: and et wikipedia is far more aggressive in going after the commercialists.
2008-03-06 13:15 < Demi> we want casual contributors, not hardcore axe-grinders; unfortunately the casual contributor is precious and fragile
2008-03-06 13:15 < NotACow> Demi: and they let the nationalists go at it full steam.
2008-03-06 13:16 < NotACow> Demi: to say nothing of the total disaster that surrounds any topic related to judaism, islam, or the middle east
2008-03-06 13:16 < Demi> yeah, there's a real anti-business thing going on in wikipedia
2008-03-06 13:16 < Demi> our coverage of companies and corporations is really lackluster
2008-03-06 13:16 < Demi> (except for "criticisms of wal-mart")
2008-03-06 13:16 < bumm13> heh
2008-03-06 13:16 < NotACow> Demi: i talke dto a reporter who was surprised to find out that there is virtually no coverage of any health care provider
2008-03-06 13:17 < NotACow> Demi: we went down a list of the largest corporations in the reporter's state. about 10% had nonstub articles.
2008-03-06 13:17 < NotACow> half had no article at all
2008-03-06 13:17 < Demi> somewhere we got the notion (was it from brad, actually?) that we needed to delete any article on a company that sounded like a press release
2008-03-06 13:17 < Demi> it's very unlike the rest of our process to delete something for tone reasons
2008-03-06 13:17 < Demi> rather than improve it
2008-03-06 13:17 < NotACow> Demi: i used to rewrite those back in the day
2008-03-06 13:18 < Leslie_S> Demi thats dumb. why dont they jut fucking improve them?
2008-03-06 13:18 < Demi> i dunno, you tell me
2008-03-06 13:18 < Demi> or someone tell me
2008-03-06 13:18 < NotACow> Demi: but i stopped because people would delete them while i was rewriting them, and then delete them again as "recreations of deleted content"
2008-03-06 13:18 < bumm13> bleh
2008-03-06 13:18 < Demi> i got six kinds of shit for restoring a really obviously badly-speedy-deleted article
2008-03-06 13:18 < Leslie_S> wtf
2008-03-06 13:18 < Demi> NotACow - yep
2008-03-06 13:18 < NotACow> Demi: the main reason i don't edit wikipedia anymore is it feels like a losing battle.
2008-03-06 13:18 < NotACow> Demi: i can improve five, ten articles a day
2008-03-06 13:19 < bumm13> it's getting to be that way :(
2008-03-06 13:19 < NotACow> Demi: but by the time i finish, there's fifty new piles of crap
2008-03-06 13:19 < NotACow> Demi: and if i fix them, four of the ones i fixed first will need fixing again.
2008-03-06 13:19 < Demi> well, that's okay
2008-03-06 13:19 * bumm13 tires of a certain bot that unilaterally spams people and allows a lot of properly-used fair use images to be subject to deletion
2008-03-06 13:20 < Demi> or rather, it has to be okay, or there is an inherent problem in how wikipedia gets constructed, and not a problem with managing it
2008-03-06 13:20 < Leslie_S> why is it that i just went to rip a cd in windows media player, and it asked me if i wanted to drm the files?
2008-03-06 13:20 < NotACow> Demi: and it's a virtual certainty that i'll be accused of some vile evil for every 100 articles i improve.
2008-03-06 13:20 < Leslie_S> why on earth would i?
2008-03-06 13:20 < Demi> well, writing things is hard, doing all these other things: stub-sorting, bot-operating, making lists of articles for wikiprojects, arguing--they are relatively easy
2008-03-06 13:20 < bumm13> indeed
2008-03-06 13:21 < bumm13> fixing text/rationales by hand is also not so easy :P
2008-03-06 13:22 < bumm13> if accepted policy continues to be a moving target regarding certain areas of Wikipedia operation, then it will only lead to its implosion
2008-03-06 13:22 < Backstretch> policy has always been a moving target because anyone can edit it.
2008-03-06 13:23 < Backstretch> I once did a small stury that showed 1/3rd of all policy is changing on any given day.
2008-03-06 13:23 < Backstretch> *study
2008-03-06 13:23 < Gracenotes> policy changes when people use it, too
2008-03-06 13:23 < Gracenotes> if not the wording, the implications
2008-03-06 13:24 * TheWeasel looks for an open-source score writer
2008-03-06 13:24 < Backstretch> I gave up editing because the culture has changed. People can be insanely abusive, and the person who raises complaint about it is the one who gets blasted for it.
2008-03-06 13:24 < NotACow> TheWeasel: lilypond, but it's hard to use
2008-03-06 13:24 < Backstretch> Editors are treated like crap now.
2008-03-06 13:24 < NotACow> Backstretch: complaining is the worst thing you can do in wikipedia
2008-03-06 13:25 < TheWeasel> "Yea, right, next thing you'll ask for a free online encyclopedia"
2008-03-06 13:25 < TheWeasel> thanks
2008-03-06 13:25 < Backstretch> I think Wikipedia is slowly proving that the base common denominator of human is incapable of producing a good encyclopedia.
2008-03-06 13:25 < TheWeasel> does it play what you write in MIDI?
2008-03-06 13:25 < NotACow> TheWeasel: no, lilypond is for typesetting
2008-03-06 13:26 < Backstretch> Plus, the administration of the projects are grossly incompetent.
2008-03-06 13:26 < TheWeasel> I want to write notes in order to be able to hear them
2008-03-06 13:26 < NotACow> TheWeasel: there's an open source midi authoring tool, but i forget what it's called
2008-03-06 13:26 < TheWeasel> okay
2008-03-06 13:26 < TheWeasel> I'll just make due with Finale NotePad
2008-03-06 13:26 < NotACow> TheWeasel: rosegarden
2008-03-06 13:26 < NotACow> TheWeasel: took me a minute to remember, is all
2008-03-06 13:26 < TheWeasel> thanks
2008-03-06 13:27 < bumm13> mi-dee
2008-03-06 13:27 < bumm13> mmmmmmmmm mi-dee
2008-03-06 13:27 < TheWeasel> heh, the German Wikipedia claims MIDI can be produced from what you write
2008-03-06 13:28 < TheWeasel> oh I see, it'll be too tedious
2008-03-06 13:29 < TheWeasel> heh, damn
2008-03-06 13:29 < TheWeasel> I don't wanna register
2008-03-06 13:29 < Moniker42> wikipedia is down?
2008-03-06 13:29 * TheWeasel looks out for something else
2008-03-06 13:29 < Fabexplosive> wikidown
2008-03-06 13:29 < WBOSITG> it is
2008-03-06 13:29 < Moniker42> i suppose i should contribute to the discussion....
2008-03-06 13:29 < Moniker42> OMFG!!
2008-03-06 13:29 < Moniker42> there, i've said my piece.
2008-03-06 13:30 < WBOSITG> hooray! :D
2008-03-06 13:30 * TheWeasel considers NoteEdit
2008-03-06 13:30 < TheWeasel> oh, Linux
2008-03-06 13:30 < TheWeasel> damn you
2008-03-06 13:30 < TheWeasel> as if windows users didn't appreciate free stuff
2008-03-06 13:30 < Moniker42> is it just the UK/western europe server that's down?
2008-03-06 13:31 < WBOSITG> dunno, UK definitely
2008-03-06 13:31 < NotACow> moo
2008-03-06 13:31 < bumm13> "The quality of the Amiga's sound output is considered advanced in retrospect, because of the output capability which was ahead of its time." <--- :-p
2008-03-06 13:31 < ideogram> welcome to wikipedia
2008-03-06 13:31 < TheWeasel> Works well for central Europe
2008-03-06 13:31 < ideogram> I don't even blink at that anymore
2008-03-06 13:32 < WBOSITG> NotACow: Moo?
2008-03-06 13:32 < NotACow> WBOSITG: moo!
2008-03-06 13:32 < WBOSITG> NotACow: Bit contradictory..
2008-03-06 13:32 < ideogram> indeed
2008-03-06 13:32 < WBOSITG> :)
2008-03-06 13:33 < WBOSITG> back up
2008-03-06 13:34 < NotACow> WBOSITG: life is full of contradictons
2008-03-06 13:34 < WBOSITG> NotACow: True.
2008-03-06 13:34 < WWWWolf> Finnish Wikipedia: "Environmnental movement is [...] a societal movement, which is largely based on [...] environmental protection and various environmental movements." *scratches head* Not everything has to be contradicting, it can also be redundant.
2008-03-06 13:35 * bumm13 likes the lime and chili flavored almonds he just ate
2008-03-06 13:36 * WWWWolf is feeling extremely dumb, which is just the perfect mood for improving article leads, no? =)
2008-03-06 13:38 < zvook> were you an everythingian once upon a time, WWWWolf? if not, someone else had the same nick idea.
2008-03-06 13:39 < WWWWolf> That's me. I haven't been to E2 for a while.
2008-03-06 13:39 < zvook> i don't think anyone has.
2008-03-06 13:41 < bumm13> heh
2008-03-06 13:42 < bumm13> E2 is good for some of its anecdotes
2008-03-06 13:45 * WBOSITG is very confused :S
2008-03-06 13:45 < TheWeasel> Rosegarden only runs under Linux :-/
2008-03-06 13:45 < WBOSITG> What's that?
2008-03-06 13:45 < WBOSITG> :S
2008-03-06 13:45 < WWWWolf> WBOSITG: =) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wwwwolf/Funny/ConfusedWolfWarning
2008-03-06 13:45 < WBOSITG> Best. Smiley. Ever.
2008-03-06 13:46 < WBOSITG> lol
2008-03-06 13:46 < WBOSITG> that's funny
2008-03-06 13:47 < bumm13> hmm, a userbox thingy
2008-03-06 13:47 < NotACow> yay for userboxes
2008-03-06 13:48 < zvook> TheWeasel: I never promised you a Rosegarden
2008-03-06 13:49 < TheWeasel> Along with the SunShine there's gonna be a little rain(tm) SOMEtimes.
2008-03-06 13:51 < bumm13> hiya Daniel_Bush
2008-03-06 13:51 < Daniel_Bush> Hello
2008-03-06 13:51 < zvook> book 'im, danno
2008-03-06 13:52 < TheWeasel> TuxGuitar seems to do what I want to do
2008-03-06 13:53 * TheWeasel got a new guitar book and wants to hear the licks before attempting to play them off-sheet
2008-03-06 13:53 < TheWeasel> is what.
2008-03-06 13:53 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-03-06 13:53 < Daniel_Bush> I still keep seeing Wikipedia comments on that talk page that say that controversy can't be included because of things like WP:UNDUE
2008-03-06 13:53 < jimbowiki> Bonjour guys
2008-03-06 13:54 < zvook> salut
2008-03-06 13:54 < zvook> TheWeasel, would you not just legally dl mp3s of the songs?
2008-03-06 13:54 < Daniel_Bush> "But hey, let's see a proposed wording that meets WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE"
2008-03-06 13:54 < TheWeasel> those ain't songs
2008-03-06 13:54 < Daniel_Bush> Is it really that hard just to quote the Washington Post?
2008-03-06 13:54 < TheWeasel> they're licks newly written for the book
2008-03-06 13:54 * zvook sees
2008-03-06 13:55 < Daniel_Bush> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23503060/ Hillary Clinton aides compare Barack Obama to Kenneth Starr because he's requesting to see her tax forms she promised she would release "soon," perhaps before Ohio and Texas, 'definitely' before Pennsylvania
2008-03-06 13:56 < Daniel_Bush> Whatever happened to "we need to vet out candidates before the nomination"
2008-03-06 13:56 < WWWWolf> WP:LETSJUSTNUKEARTICLESABOUTCURRENTPOLITICIANS =)
2008-03-06 13:56 < TheWeasel> Meh, my mom sings along to stuff on TV
2008-03-06 13:57 < zvook> Daniel_Bush: have you seen wp:recentism? it won't be helpful to you or anything, but it's interesting
2008-03-06 13:58 < bumm13> .
2008-03-06 13:58 < zvook> it's very much, on the one had this, on the other hand that.
2008-03-06 13:59 < zvook> bumm13: ?
2008-03-06 13:59 * bumm13 wonders how he just typed that :x
2008-03-06 14:00 < Demi> bumm13 - ghosts
2008-03-06 14:00 < jimbowiki> Bill and Hilary -->> http://cdn.chickipedia.com/www/images/4/49/HC002_353.jpg
2008-03-06 14:02 < bumm13> Demi: zomg!
2008-03-06 14:02 < bumm13> darn Ghinis
2008-03-06 14:02 < Daniel_Bush> I hope that spokesman's comment blows back in his face like a stick of dynamite
2008-03-06 14:02 < Cyrius> everybody looked like that back then
2008-03-06 14:03 < bumm13> Cyrius: uh, not everybody :P
2008-03-06 14:03 < OverlordQ> rofl @ that pic jimbowiki
2008-03-06 14:03 < bumm13> Bill's hair in that pic is scary looking
2008-03-06 14:03 < Cyrius> you mean AWESOME
2008-03-06 14:04 < bumm13> uh, no
2008-03-06 14:04 < Cyrius> I'm in awe of it
2008-03-06 14:04 < bumm13> I'll take Dr. J's fro over that anyday ;)
2008-03-06 14:05 < Cyrius> I don't know why people keep linking to that picture
2008-03-06 14:06 < bumm13> http://www.remembertheaba.com/OnlyintheABAMaterial/GilmoreCloseupHeadshot.JPG <-- Artis Gilmore while in the ABA :)
2008-03-06 14:08 < chomwitt> anyone from the hellinik wikipedia?
2008-03-06 14:09 < Daniel_Bush> If Stephen Harper's chief of staff is convicted for leaking the false memo about Obama,
2008-03-06 14:09 < Daniel_Bush> does that mean our next White House chief of staff gets to release a false memo damaging irreparably to the career of the Canadian political candidate of his or her choosing?
2008-03-06 14:13 < Daniel_Bush> Maybe they could apologize by ceding Alberta
2008-03-06 14:15 < Golbfoo> senora dances calypso
2008-03-06 14:15 < Leslie_S> what memo did stephen harper leak?
2008-03-06 14:15 < Golbfoo> left to right is de tempo
2008-03-06 14:15 < Golbfoo> and when she gets the sensation
2008-03-06 14:15 < Golbfoo> she go up in the air come down in slow motion~
2008-03-06 14:15 < Golbfoo> Leslie_S- the fake "Obama lies about disliking NAFTA" memo
2008-03-06 14:16 < Leslie_S> heh
2008-03-06 14:16 < Golbfoo> Obama has been speaking about NAFTA. Then he went to Canada and told officials there, don't worry, I'm just saying this so the plebs will vote for me. But that report was false, and now the CBC and Canadian authorities are admitting it.
2008-03-06 14:16 < Golbfoo> Obama never said that to Canada.
2008-03-06 14:16 < Leslie_S> think he still has a chance of being elected?
2008-03-06 14:16 < Golbfoo> he almost certainly will get the nomination
2008-03-06 14:16 < Golbfoo> and i think he can win the election
2008-03-06 14:16 < Leslie_S> woooot, bros before hoes!
2008-03-06 14:17 < Golbfoo> it'll be close
2008-03-06 14:17 < Golbfoo> i think Obama could carry some southern states
2008-03-06 14:18 < Daniel_Bush> Obama said that Clinton should be scrutinized over comments she made about Mississippi in Iowa
2008-03-06 14:18 < Golbfoo> look for LA, and maybe SC and AL going blue next election
2008-03-06 14:18 < Daniel_Bush> where she called it a backwater state that has never made much progress
2008-03-06 14:18 < Daniel_Bush> Think that'll go down well on March 13?
2008-03-06 14:18 < Golbfoo> yeah, those were harsh. mississippi doesn't matter because it doesn't have a primary coming before super tuesday lols WHOOPS
2008-03-06 14:18 < Golbfoo> Clinton was positive she would have the nomination wrapped up on or before Super Tuesday, she saw no need to pander to the lesser states.
2008-03-06 14:19 < Leslie_S> what a jackass
2008-03-06 14:19 < Golbfoo> And now Wyoming and South Dakota get a say! It'll be awesome if this comes down to the final primary in Puerto Rico =p
2008-03-06 14:19 < Daniel_Bush> Red states, open primaries, and caucus states don't matter, except Texas, which really mattered, until a few days before the election when it didn't, until after the election, when it did.
2008-03-06 14:19 < Golbfoo> lol
2008-03-06 14:19 < Golbfoo> exactly
2008-03-06 14:19 < Golbfoo> and for all the hype the Clinton campaign has gotten about 'winning' Texas
2008-03-06 14:19 < Golbfoo> Obama may still gather more delegates from it
2008-03-06 14:20 < Golbfoo> thanks to that horrifically weird double-vote system =p
2008-03-06 14:20 < Leslie_S> whats nafta?
2008-03-06 14:20 < Golbfoo> North American Free Trade Agreement
2008-03-06 14:20 < Daniel_Bush> North American Free T...yeah
2008-03-06 14:20 < Leslie_S> heh
2008-03-06 14:20 < Golbfoo> Which is hardly a free trade agreement but I digress
2008-03-06 14:21 < Leslie_S> heh
2008-03-06 14:21 < Golbfoo> a true free trade agreement consists of no more than a single paragraph, ideally no more than a single sentence, but some things may need elaborating.
2008-03-06 14:21 < Golbfoo> If it's Obama vs McCain, I can definitely see at least one, maybe up to 4 southern states going from red to blue, and in return, Pennsylvania might go R.
2008-03-06 14:22 < Golbfoo> The two most likely southern states though are smaller combined than PA, though.
2008-03-06 14:22 < Leslie_S> whats so bad about nafta?
2008-03-06 14:23 < Daniel_Bush> "They're taking our jobs!"
2008-03-06 14:23 < Golbfoo> CNN: at least 7 killed in attack on Jewish seminary in Jerusalem
2008-03-06 14:23 < Daniel_Bush> That
2008-03-06 14:23 < Golbfoo> Leslie_S- Mainly, that it gave Mexico an advantage over the USA, and thus many jobs have gone down there
2008-03-06 14:23 < Golbfoo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFTA#Criticism_and_controversies
2008-03-06 14:24 < Golbfoo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFTA#Effects
2008-03-06 14:26 < Leslie_S> Golbfoo i really dont see what nafta has to do with that, other tan allowing free trade?
2008-03-06 14:27 < Golbez> read the article, i'm not enough of an expert to discuss it
2008-03-06 14:28 < Leslie_S> im reading the article, but im not seeing why its caused by nafta.
2008-03-06 14:29 < Golbez> the 'deindustrialization' section, i believe
2008-03-06 14:29 < Ceiling_Cat> MOAR CATZ!
2008-03-06 14:29 < Golbez> basically, if my company can ship things into the united states tariff-free, why not have Mexicans make it for much less than i have to pay fat Americans? I think that's the general argument
2008-03-06 14:29 < Golbez> Ceiling_Cat, why is NAFTA bad?
2008-03-06 14:29 < Leslie_S> Golbez but thats just free trade, and i thought free trade was good?
2008-03-06 14:30 < Golbez> can one really have free trade without free movement of people, though?
2008-03-06 14:30 < Ceiling_Cat> golbez - arguably, because it gives mexican manufacturing an advantage
2008-03-06 14:30 < Leslie_S> you just said that it gave mexico an advantage over the US
2008-03-06 14:30 < Leslie_S> but i dont see that.
2008-03-06 14:30 < Ceiling_Cat> in the sense that they do not have the same labor and environmental protections that the united states does
2008-03-06 14:31 < Leslie_S> Golbez and if there was free movement of people, i bet wed have less immigrants from mexico
2008-03-06 14:31 < Daniel_Bush> 75% of Canadian exports go to the U.S.
2008-03-06 14:31 < Ceiling_Cat> therefore, manufacturers in mexico can produce more cheaply than the US
2008-03-06 14:31 < Ceiling_Cat> Golbez - Anything else?
2008-03-06 14:31 < Daniel_Bush> By putting tariffs on Canadian goods, we could have them by the proverbial "balls"
2008-03-06 14:31 < Ceiling_Cat> Oh, also
2008-03-06 14:31 < Daniel_Bush> Would that not be fun
2008-03-06 14:31 < Ceiling_Cat> NAFA is bad because local free trade zones can result in an ineffecient allocation of production
2008-03-06 14:31 < Golbez> Ceiling_Cat- Leslie is the one asking, I'm not versed enough on NAFTA to suitably critize it, except that it's not a free trade agreement
2008-03-06 14:31 < Leslie_S> Ceiling_Cat then free trade agreements shouldnt be made with countries like mexico until theyre up to modern standards.
2008-03-06 14:31 < Leslie_S> doesnt make nafta itself bad.
2008-03-06 14:32 < Leslie_S> Golbez why isnt it? it sure looks like one to me....
2008-03-06 14:32 < Ceiling_Cat> Leslie_S - one commonly advocated requirement is that the less developed country in such an agreement must equalize such laws
2008-03-06 14:32 < Leslie_S> ok.
2008-03-06 14:32 < Ceiling_Cat> I don't think NAFTA does
2008-03-06 14:32 < Ceiling_Cat> but I believe teh WHO does
2008-03-06 14:32 < Leslie_S> nafta doesnt.
2008-03-06 14:32 < Ceiling_Cat> or at least tries
2008-03-06 14:32 < Ceiling_Cat> the EU does
2008-03-06 14:33 < Leslie_S> why doesnt nafta?
2008-03-06 14:33 * Ceiling_Cat shrugs
2008-03-06 14:33 < Leslie_S> anyway, that doesnt make nafta less of a "free trade agreement" to me.
2008-03-06 14:33 < Leslie_S> it just makes it dumb.
2008-03-06 14:33 < Ceiling_Cat> my second point is also true
2008-03-06 14:33 < Golbez> NAFTA is an extremely large document. A true free trade agreement consists of one sentence. =p "A state of free movement of goods without tariff or subsidy shall exist between the United States of America, the United Mexican States, and Canada." voila
2008-03-06 14:33 < Ceiling_Cat> local free trade zones can result in an effecient allocation of production
2008-03-06 14:33 < Golbez> obviously there's thousands of exceptions in NAFTA
2008-03-06 14:33 < Ceiling_Cat> it's counter-intuitive, but not difficult to understand
2008-03-06 14:33 < Ceiling_Cat> an ineffecient*
2008-03-06 14:34 < Cyrius> you need a bit more than that
2008-03-06 14:34 < Ceiling_Cat> let's say the US imports a labor-intensive good - widgets
2008-03-06 14:34 < Leslie_S> lol, [[commodity fetishism]]
2008-03-06 14:34 < Golbez> people in manufacturing-heavy areas of the United States tend to be against NAFTA, as they have lost jobs while seeing trade from Mexico increase
2008-03-06 14:34 < Ceiling_Cat> these widgets can be manufactured in china or mexico
2008-03-06 14:34 < Ceiling_Cat> pre-NAFTA, both countries pay a 5% import tariff to the US government
2008-03-06 14:35 < Ceiling_Cat> china, having a cheaper labor supply, makes widgets cheaper and therefore sells more (and, by economic definition, they are more effecient)
2008-03-06 14:35 < Ceiling_Cat> now, NAFTA comes along
2008-03-06 14:35 < Leslie_S> this doesnt make nafta less free..
2008-03-06 14:35 * morwen is in favour of free trade, unrestricted right of abode and work anywhere in the world, and as much free cake for everyone as they can eat
2008-03-06 14:35 < Golbez> the cake is a lie
2008-03-06 14:36 < Leslie_S> morwen same.
2008-03-06 14:36 < Ceiling_Cat> chinese manufacturers are still paying 5% import tarrifs on their (more economicly-effecit-to-produce) widgets, but mexico is not
2008-03-06 14:36 < Leslie_S> except the cake was baked in china
2008-03-06 14:36 < Ceiling_Cat> therefore, to the american consumer, they are cheaper
2008-03-06 14:36 < Leslie_S> lol
2008-03-06 14:36 < Demi> according to the libertarian bible, there isn't any such thing as a free lunch
2008-03-06 14:36 < Demi> (i'm paraphrasing, libertarians can't speak good)
2008-03-06 14:36 < Golbez> tanstaafl
2008-03-06 14:36 < morwen> Demi: dictionaries are communism
2008-03-06 14:36 < Leslie_S> Ceiling_Cat why dont we just force these countries to become decent?
2008-03-06 14:36 < Ceiling_Cat> so, instead of the US government collecting money, the money that the US goverment would have collected with the import tariff is lost to ineffeciency
2008-03-06 14:37 < Ceiling_Cat> (or at least part of it is)
2008-03-06 14:37 < Demi> Golbez - Ha ha! According to the rule of the double negative, there *is* such a thing as a free lunch! QED!
2008-03-06 14:37 < Demi> oh man, i'm high on the hog, now
2008-03-06 14:37 < Golbez> shit!
2008-03-06 14:37 < Ceiling_Cat> Cyrius - understand?
2008-03-06 14:37 * Golbez converts to socialism
2008-03-06 14:37 < Leslie_S> um
2008-03-06 14:37 < bumm13> ^(")^
2008-03-06 14:37 * Demi sagenods
2008-03-06 14:37 < Demi> i knew i could do it eventually golbez
2008-03-06 14:37 < Cyrius> huh? you were explaining something to me for some reason?
2008-03-06 14:37 < morwen> what i want to know is, what does the world economy look like once china has got a per capita gdp of $10,000 ?
2008-03-06 14:37 * Demi gives golbez his 1-billionth part of the means of production. use it wisely.
2008-03-06 14:38 < Demi> morwen - we buy all our injection-molded plastic from tajikistan
2008-03-06 14:38 < Golbez> morwen- a boom never before seen?
2008-03-06 14:38 < Leslie_S> Demi they injection mold things in the us.
2008-03-06 14:38 < Cyrius> the movement of cheap manufacturing to somewhere else
2008-03-06 14:38 < Leslie_S> Demi with cheap disposable labor.
2008-03-06 14:38 < Demi> Golbez - do you mean a nuclear war boom or an economic boom?
2008-03-06 14:38 < Golbez> eventually we'll be out of poor places to import goods from. prices go up, but so does quality and the general economy. everybody happy.
2008-03-06 14:38 < Demi> how do you dispose of labor?
2008-03-06 14:38 < Ceiling_Cat> Morwen - China is a paper tiger
2008-03-06 14:38 < Golbez> Demi- economic
2008-03-06 14:38 < Leslie_S> i ran an injection molder for a week and a half at minimum wage and got sacked for no reason.
2008-03-06 14:39 < Leslie_S> Demi temp agencies.
2008-03-06 14:39 < Demi> ah okay
2008-03-06 14:39 < Demi> sure, i was a temp
2008-03-06 14:39 < morwen> Golbez: And manufacturing starts becoming economic in the west again.
2008-03-06 14:39 < Golbez> basically
2008-03-06 14:39 < Leslie_S> Demi with temp agencies you can treat workers like absolute crap, and then sack them for no reason without even having to tell them anything.
2008-03-06 14:39 < Ceiling_Cat> The Chinese economy looks very strong on paper, but as soon as they stop artificially depressing their currency, their manufacturing is going to take a fantastic hit
2008-03-06 14:39 < Leslie_S> Demi you just act like their youre best worker, then one day "OH, BYE!"
2008-03-06 14:40 < Ceiling_Cat> not to mention that the chinese workforce is the oldest in the world by far
2008-03-06 14:40 < Leslie_S> china artificially depresses their currency?
2008-03-06 14:40 < Leslie_S> why?
2008-03-06 14:40 < Leslie_S> and how?
2008-03-06 14:40 < Ceiling_Cat> and that the chinese stockmarket is hugely overvalued because chinese are not allowed to invest abroad
2008-03-06 14:40 < Demi> Leslie_S - well, you can do that with regular employees as well, with at-will employment
2008-03-06 14:40 < Demi> which i think is the most common arrangement now
2008-03-06 14:40 < Leslie_S> Demi not as easily.
2008-03-06 14:40 < Ceiling_Cat> Leslie_S - they buy dollars for yuan like crazy
2008-03-06 14:40 < Golbez> i don't know why people are sour about 'sweatshops', it looks like every country with them is rising out of abject poverty, in the exact order in which they were established. you gotta start somewhere.
2008-03-06 14:40 < Ceiling_Cat> it drives the US government crazy
2008-03-06 14:40 < Leslie_S> Demi temp agencies are used to an extreme in my area.
2008-03-06 14:40 < Demi> Golbez - i prefer sweetshops
2008-03-06 14:40 < Ceiling_Cat> but in practice it's the only thing keeping the dollar from completely collapsing
2008-03-06 14:41 < Demi> Golbez - i don't like jurisdiction-hopping, labor laws are not the only thing that's being avoided by doing that
2008-03-06 14:41 < Ceiling_Cat> but don't look at me - I'm not an economist :)
2008-03-06 14:41 < Ceiling_Cat> (but I did sleep at a holiday inn last night)
2008-03-06 14:41 < Leslie_S> Demi anyway, with temp agencies you dont have to actually look for and hire people, you can get workers the same day you decide you need them, and you can sack them the same day you decide that they pissed you off.
2008-03-06 14:42 < Demi> Leslie_S - have you signed up for one of those cash/day labor outfits?
2008-03-06 14:42 < Demi> Leslie_S - sure
2008-03-06 14:42 < Golbez> the collapse of the dollar is inevitable
2008-03-06 14:42 < Leslie_S> Demi absolutely no HR involvement needed, and you dont even have to pay unemployment...temp agency does that if you made the mistake of letting them work for that long.
2008-03-06 14:42 < Leslie_S> Demi no, never heard of one.
2008-03-06 14:42 < Golbez> the question is, will it take the rest of the world with it, or does the world finally have a new stable currency and economy that i can live without us
2008-03-06 14:42 < Ceiling_Cat> golbez - no, it most certainly is not
2008-03-06 14:42 < Leslie_S> Demi the place i worked for paid me every friday.
2008-03-06 14:42 < Leslie_S> Demi with a check.
2008-03-06 14:42 < Golbez> i can -> can
2008-03-06 14:43 < Ceiling_Cat> but the US governemnt needs to end its highly destructive fiscal policies
2008-03-06 14:43 < Golbez> Ceiling_Cat- highly unlikely
2008-03-06 14:43 < Ceiling_Cat> the George W. Bush spend-money-like-it's-on-fire policy of dealing with finiances
2008-03-06 14:43 < Golbez> at the very least, the petrodollar's days are numbered
2008-03-06 14:43 < Leslie_S> i worked for the same company with them for 6 months, full time, got sacked, went to a diff department, worked there for several months, got sacked, got screwed around and asked back on a day to day basis
2008-03-06 14:43 < Leslie_S> then one day they call me for work and im like "oh, i got a job!"
2008-03-06 14:43 < Golbez> do you agree with that bit?
2008-03-06 14:44 < Leslie_S> i sacked them just like they sack their workers.
2008-03-06 14:44 < Leslie_S> :D
2008-03-06 14:44 < Demi> Leslie_S - where i used to work, in addition to regular temp agencies, there were day labor offices that would arrange for day labor
2008-03-06 14:44 < Demi> and you would get paid in cash, on the day
2008-03-06 14:44 < Demi> er "used to live"
2008-03-06 14:45 < morwen> Demi: that's how construction workers and dockers have historically been employed
2008-03-06 14:45 < Demi> through an agency?
2008-03-06 14:46 < morwen> well, not called that
2008-03-06 14:46 < morwen> gangmastering and suchforth
2008-03-06 14:47 < Demi> well i thought this was an interesting hybrid
2008-03-06 14:47 < Demi> since they kept track of your wages (they may even have been withholding taxes) and so forth
2008-03-06 14:48 < Golbez> haha this is a good point: the true irony of Florida and Michigan moving their primaries up to January is that the race has shown that the LATER primaries would be more important this year :) Suck it!
2008-03-06 14:48 < Demi> hey, maybe oregon can have a say
2008-03-06 14:48 < Golbez> South Dakota will!
2008-03-06 14:48 < Golbez> They're looking forward to it. As are Wyoming's 4 delegates!
2008-03-06 14:49 < Demi> the crucial "no one lives here" demographic
2008-03-06 14:49 < Leslie_S> Demi my temp agency did all the payroll and i got a check from the same place every week, even if i worked at 7 places that week.
2008-03-06 14:49 < Leslie_S> i only worked for like 5 employers through them though
2008-03-06 14:50 < Demi> yes
2008-03-06 14:50 < Leslie_S> the print shop, the injection molding shop, the excretion festival, a hospital construction crew
2008-03-06 14:50 < Demi> i've worked for temp agencies a lot
2008-03-06 14:50 < Leslie_S> 4
2008-03-06 14:50 < Leslie_S> i will never work for one again.
2008-03-06 14:50 < Leslie_S> i dont like being disposable
2008-03-06 14:50 * Demi shrugs
2008-03-06 14:50 < Demi> i found it pretty useful
2008-03-06 14:50 < morwen> i assume that if they can't find you work that day, they don't pay you to stay on their books?
2008-03-06 14:50 < Demi> you get paid for assignments
2008-03-06 14:51 < Demi> not for sitting around, no
2008-03-06 14:51 < Demi> morwen - oh
2008-03-06 14:51 < Demi> the other thing? yeah, i assume that as well
2008-03-06 14:51 < Leslie_S> i got paid per hour of work.
2008-03-06 14:51 < Demi> (sorry, i thought you were talking about kelly girls)
2008-03-06 14:51 * Demi was a kelly girl
2008-03-06 14:51 < Leslie_S> no work, you dont punch in, you dont get paid
2008-03-06 14:51 < Leslie_S> kelly girl:?
2008-03-06 14:51 < Leslie_S> :o
2008-03-06 14:51 < morwen> if you are committing to be available, they ought to take the risk that they can't find anything
2008-03-06 14:52 < morwen> otherwise they have no incentive to avoid taking on too many temps for the work they have coming through for them
2008-03-06 14:52 < Demi> morwen - oh well
2008-03-06 14:52 < Demi> temp agencies don't limit the number of people they take on
2008-03-06 14:52 < Demi> they evaluate you for your skills and match you to assignments
2008-03-06 14:52 < Demi> but i never wanted for work
2008-03-06 14:53 < Demi> and you're not committing to be available
2008-03-06 14:53 < Demi> they call you and offer you the assignment, you can be busy doing something else if you want
2008-03-06 14:54 < morwen> ah
2008-03-06 14:54 < bumm13> ok, wtf?
2008-03-06 14:54 < Leslie_S> uh
2008-03-06 14:54 < Leslie_S> wtf?
2008-03-06 14:55 < Leslie_S> isnt it obvious that you can be doing something else if you want?
2008-03-06 14:55 < bumm13> someone put a video on youtube of their cat taking a dump into a toilet :P
2008-03-06 14:55 < Demi> i think morwen had a different idea of how it worked
2008-03-06 14:55 < Leslie_S> most people use these places while they are ooking for real jobs
2008-03-06 14:55 < Daniel_Bush> What's up with the red link
2008-03-06 14:55 < Daniel_Bush> on the main page
2008-03-06 14:55 < Leslie_S> i applied myself to several temp agencies who never even called me
2008-03-06 14:55 < Leslie_S> seriously, wtf.
2008-03-06 14:55 < Demi> well, in practice, you need to call them
2008-03-06 14:56 < Leslie_S> i called them.
2008-03-06 14:56 < Leslie_S> every two weeks when i felt like it
2008-03-06 14:56 < Demi> ha
2008-03-06 14:56 < Demi> i mean every day
2008-03-06 14:56 < Leslie_S> they get bitchy at me for that
2008-03-06 14:56 < Leslie_S> the only one that ever did anything, didnt bitch at me for that, and called me before the first time i ever called them. like, lightning quick.
2008-03-06 14:57 < bumm13> (hmm, it's from ebaumsworld.com)
2008-03-06 14:57 < Leslie_S> but the bitchy one, was all like OMG YOU CALLED YESTERDAY, FUCK OFF
2008-03-06 14:57 * bumm13 wonders where *they* stole it from ;p
2008-03-06 14:57 < Leslie_S> well, they actually told me to not call more than once every two weeks.
2008-03-06 14:57 < Demi> ha, that's pretty mean
2008-03-06 14:57 < Demi> what could you do?
2008-03-06 14:57 < Leslie_S> Demi i had a good system towards the end of my work with the temp agency.
2008-03-06 14:58 < Leslie_S> Demi i was going to school, and when i was working, id tell the day supervisors, "hey, if you need someone this weekend, call me.".
2008-03-06 14:58 < Leslie_S> They knew i was a good worker and were more than happy to call me. (usually theyd just tell the temp agency to call me, but same thing..)
2008-03-06 14:59 < Demi> sure
2008-03-06 14:59 < Leslie_S> i worked 2 days a week for like 3 weeks, 24 hours per week (12 hour days)
2008-03-06 15:01 < Leslie_S> that was kind of a nice student job. except that i got an offer for a more reliable, nearly full time job, and took it.
2008-03-06 15:02 < Leslie_S> from walmart, omfg
2008-03-06 15:02 < Demi> right, you told us you were responsible for tainting the meat
2008-03-06 15:02 < Leslie_S> yes
2008-03-06 15:03 < Leslie_S> i urinate into the meat bunkers all the time.
2008-03-06 15:03 < Demi> you would think they would have the senior citizens do that instead of be greeters
2008-03-06 15:03 < Leslie_S> Demi i greet pretty often actually. heh.
2008-03-06 15:04 < Leslie_S> why is it that all the greeters are like 90?
2008-03-06 15:04 < Demi> i don't know; i don't care for it, personally
2008-03-06 15:04 < Leslie_S> the greeters at our walmart are the most useless thing on earth
2008-03-06 15:04 < Leslie_S> they dont even do their job
2008-03-06 15:05 < Leslie_S> one that does, is goofy to the point of asking me for a reciept when i wasnt even going out the door?
2008-03-06 15:06 < Leslie_S> i was taking an unassembled site2store bicycle to the service desk where a customer who was buying it was going to pick it up and buy it..
2008-03-06 15:06 * Leslie_S shrugs
2008-03-06 15:06 < Leslie_S> Demi you know whats funny though, is at our walmart, they dont do the checking everyones receipt for no reason thing that people like NotACow complain about constantly in here.
2008-03-06 15:07 < Leslie_S> they only check receipts for obvious things.....large unbagged items, and when the alarm goes off every 5 minutes
2008-03-06 15:07 < Demi> i see
2008-03-06 15:07 < Demi> i'm not sure if they do any checking at our wal-mart actually
2008-03-06 15:07 < Leslie_S> im sure they do.
2008-03-06 15:08 < Leslie_S> anyway, these people at our walmart, first of all, they dont even have enough of them, so they have to waste stockers' time forcing them to greet (instead of doing their jobs)
2008-03-06 15:08 < Leslie_S> and they dont actually check peoples receipts!
2008-03-06 15:09 < Leslie_S> ive watched people walk past them with big screen tvs, and they dont even bat an eye.
2008-03-06 15:23 < Pilotguy> *crickets*
2008-03-06 15:25 < Pilotguy> *tumbleweeds*
2008-03-06 15:31 < Ceiling_Cat> Comets! Messedrocker!
2008-03-06 15:31 * Ceiling_Cat facehuggles
2008-03-06 15:33 < Comets> Ceiling_Cat, :DDD
2008-03-06 15:33 * Comets butthuggles :DDDD
2008-03-06 15:36 < daba> http://tipovidaba.bloger.hr/
2008-03-06 15:36 < daba> http://tipovidaba.bloger.hr/
2008-03-06 15:36 < daba> http://tipovidaba.bloger.hr/
2008-03-06 15:36 < Daniel_Bush> Can I calculate down to what magnitude a new telescope will be able to see at my location by dividing the new telescope's aperture area by that of my old one, then using a (log)2 operation on the resulting number, and then taking that number and adding it to what magnitude my own telescope can see down to?
2008-03-06 15:39 < Comets> XD
2008-03-06 15:39 < NotACow> Daniel_Bush: i have absolutely no idea.
2008-03-06 15:39 < Daniel_Bush> > For example, a telescope I'm looking at can gather about 3.7 times as much light as mine, which rounds to 4, which is 2^2, and if apparent magnitude is logarithmic, would that mean I'd be able to see about stars about 2 magnitudes dimmer?
2008-03-06 15:39 < Daniel_Bush> Whoops, you weren't supposed to know I copied and pasted that from somewhere else where they had no idea either
2008-03-06 15:39 < NotACow> Daniel_Bush: haha
2008-03-06 15:40 * Ceiling_Cat glues furry ears and whispers onto Comets
2008-03-06 15:40 * Ceiling_Cat glues a tail on
2008-03-06 15:40 * Ceiling_Cat pets Comets_cat
2008-03-06 15:40 < Comets> O_O
2008-03-06 15:41 * Comets is a puddycat :DD
2008-03-06 15:41 < Ceiling_Cat> whiskers*
2008-03-06 15:41 < Cyrius> Daniel_Bush: 4x light gathering is like 1.5 magnitudes
2008-03-06 15:43 < Daniel_Bush> And images will appear about 90% bigger when switching from a 70mm to a 135mm aperture/
2008-03-06 15:43 < Daniel_Bush> ?
2008-03-06 15:43 < Ceiling_Cat> http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=156302 <-- Colbert says goodbye to Gary Gygax
2008-03-06 15:44 < Cyrius> Daniel_Bush: bad assumption
2008-03-06 15:45 < Cyrius> this is a refractor?
2008-03-06 15:45 < Daniel_Bush> Reflector
2008-03-06 15:45 < Cyrius> small then
2008-03-06 15:45 < Daniel_Bush> I just got the idea from space.com saying a telescope with twice the aperture will make stars appear twice as far apart
2008-03-06 15:46 < Cyrius> the size is dependent on the complete combination of optics
2008-03-06 15:47 < Daniel_Bush> I was thinking apparent magnitude uses a logarithm with 2 as a base...actually 2.512...stupid me
2008-03-06 15:48 < Cyrius> =)
2008-03-06 15:48 < Ceiling_Cat> oh snap
2008-03-06 15:49 < Ceiling_Cat> I almost forgot about my script
2008-03-06 15:55 < nsh> interesting moral issue raised by this Anonymous hu-hah
2008-03-06 15:56 < nsh> in temporarily stepping on the wrong side of the moral fence, they were able to achieve an increase in public awareness that allowed a massive multiplication of ability to operate upon returning to the other side of the fence
2008-03-06 15:59 < NotACow> nsh: haha
2008-03-06 15:59 < NotACow> nsh: where is this folderol?
2008-03-06 15:59 < nsh> folderol?
2008-03-06 16:00 < nsh> oh
2008-03-06 16:00 < nsh> http://deathboy.livejournal.com/1082404.html
2008-03-06 16:01 < nsh> the 'folderol' being that the only reason large numbers of people were aware of and thus participated in this protest is the initial ddos-ing orchestrated to garner attention
2008-03-06 16:02 < NotACow> DON'T BITE THE DOG
2008-03-06 16:03 < NotACow> nsh: eh, protesting scientology is so last millenium
2008-03-06 16:03 < Comets> O_)
2008-03-06 16:06 * nsh smiles
2008-03-06 16:07 * Comets doesn't
2008-03-06 16:17 < Ceiling_Cat> oh wikipedia
2008-03-06 16:17 < Ceiling_Cat> * In [[Tim Dorsey]]'s novel [[Cadillac Beach]], [[Serge A. Storms]] and Lenny are discussing homophobes and Lenny asks Serge if he ever put gerbils up his ass, to which Serge replies "But I only use non-cruel, gerbil safe, all synthetic Nerbil's®. You know how I feel about animal rights. What a horrible way to go. What if some giant space alien landed and did that to you?
2008-03-06 16:17 < Ceiling_Cat> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gerbilling&curid=286199&diff=196372630&oldid=195733620
2008-03-06 16:18 < Ceiling_Cat> I will concede the point - it's a horrible way to go
2008-03-06 16:19 < lekro> what should you do when you find that an article uses copyrighted text? like the plot in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Veil_%28The_Outer_Limits%29 which is taken from http://www.theouterlimits.com/episodes/season2/22.htm
2008-03-06 16:19 < Sfan00> lekro: Flag as copyvio?
2008-03-06 16:20 < lekro> how do I do this?
2008-03-06 16:20 < Sfan00> Erm
2008-03-06 16:20 < Sfan00> Ask an admin?
2008-03-06 16:21 < Martinp23> lekro: Place {{db-copyvio|URL}} onto it near the top (where URL is the url of the copied text).
2008-03-06 16:22 < Martinp23> See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CSD
2008-03-06 16:22 < lekro> thanks
2008-03-06 16:23 < lekro> well, only part of the article is a copyright violation. does this box still apply?
2008-03-06 16:24 < morwen> revert to the last pre-copyvio version is one option in that case
2008-03-06 16:26 < scorchsaber> Hey guys, when something is reverted and then changed, the version that it had been reverted from is still stored somewhere, right?
2008-03-06 16:26 < Martinp23> lekro: Or you can delete the copyvio bit if it's not possible to revert.
2008-03-06 16:27 < Martinp23> scorchsaber: Yep - click the "history" button at the top of the page.
2008-03-06 16:27 < scorchsaber> Martinp23: Alright. Thanks.