freenode #wikipedia

2008-02-15 20:46 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: Sorry, your question about inclusion of benefits? I'd been trying to keep up with the flow of the discussion and bring in a few more aspects ...
2008-02-15 20:46 < TheWeasel> The only difference it would make is that it shows that European countries provide, by whatever means, a more decent life to their citizens than the US does.
2008-02-15 20:46 < Ed_Poor> If we define "poor" in relative terms, then surely the USA is statistically poor
2008-02-15 20:46 < quanticle> "Consequently, they never know anything useful, educational or credentialed. Therefore, edits relating to Runge-Kutta won't be reverted for years, while edits to the Harry Potter page will be reverted in milliseconds..." <-- I wish I could disagree with this
2008-02-15 20:46 < Ed_Poor> The median income is around 40,000 USD?
2008-02-15 20:47 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: See the other quote: "The actual Orchinsky poverty line for single person households in the US ($9645 in 2004) is very comparable to the relative poverty line in many Western-European countries (Belgium 2004: €9315), while price levels are also similar."
2008-02-15 20:47 < TheWeasel> and as long as they feel the money is there, will continue to do so
2008-02-15 20:47 < Ed_Poor> stop flooding, I recall seeing that 5 minutes ago
2008-02-15 20:48 < Ed_Poor> Once again, I ask whether that "actual" poverty line includes or excludes benefits. If you don't answer, then we can just let it go.
2008-02-15 20:48 < TheWeasel> Ed_Poor: See above.
2008-02-15 20:48 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: I answered that I am *assuming* that they are included, but I do not have enough background information ...
2008-02-15 20:49 < Ed_Poor> So, how's the War in Iraq doing then?
2008-02-15 20:49 * arcimboldo_ notices that Ed_Poor is suddenly changing the topic ...
2008-02-15 20:49 < TheWeasel> Are you going to take in what I said?
2008-02-15 20:49 < Ed_Poor> The US says the surge is working, and the opposition says things have never been worse.
2008-02-15 20:50 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: In this case, the truth is most likely somewhere in between.
2008-02-15 20:50 < Ed_Poor> arcimboldo_: you said twice that you *assumed* benefits were included.
2008-02-15 20:50 < TheWeasel> The surge is keeping half a lid on things that could be even worse.
2008-02-15 20:50 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: I think the surge is working, but, at the same time, the gains aren't sustainable, and we'll see backsliding once the surge troops leave.
2008-02-15 20:50 < TheWeasel> if that's called a success, then alright
2008-02-15 20:50 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: Things had become slightly better, agreed.
2008-02-15 20:51 < arcimboldo_> Otherwise, see TheWeasel
2008-02-15 20:51 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Wow, you said the same thing I did, but in half the words. Bravo for efficiency, mate :)
2008-02-15 20:51 < Ed_Poor> What I want to know is where I can find a source, suitable for inclusion in an article, which clarifies whether benefits are included are excluded - without any tacit assumptions.
2008-02-15 20:51 < TheWeasel> That's why the instant gratification reflexes of some Democrats are much less than helpful.
2008-02-15 20:51 < TheWeasel> *tips beret
2008-02-15 20:51 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: You could send an email to the people who created those statistics.
2008-02-15 20:51 < cimon> Ed_Poor: I somehow suspect things would be much better for the US forces in Iraq, if TheUs succeeded n patching things up with Iran. Bringing Iran onside would be a strategically sound move, but the US has an ideological chip on its shoulder about Iran...
2008-02-15 20:52 * TheWeasel doesn't see at all where the benefit of that is
2008-02-15 20:52 < Ed_Poor> I also want to know what the global warming theory predicts for middle-altitude atmospheric warming, so I can graph the predicted vs. actual temperatures.
2008-02-15 20:52 < quanticle> cimon: Yeah. That whole Mossadegh/Shah/Khomenei/Embassy thing is a real drag.
2008-02-15 20:52 < TheWeasel> you're comparing systems as they are, not as they would be if everyone was the US
2008-02-15 20:52 * quanticle has to go eat dinner now
2008-02-15 20:52 < cimon> quanticle: just to be clear, are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic?
2008-02-15 20:53 < Ed_Poor> I think America's "chip" is that it doesn't like to see its allies being threatened.
2008-02-15 20:53 < quanticle|away> cimon: I'm agreeing.
2008-02-15 20:53 < Ed_Poor> you may as well say a schoolteacher has a chip on her shoulder if she stops students in the older grades from bullying her students.
2008-02-15 20:54 < TheWeasel> this is more like stopping them in class when the main bullying takes place on Myspace.
2008-02-15 20:54 < arcimboldo_> I'm not a big fan of the Iran regime. What the US administration is lacking is an understanding that there is not a black-and-white world and that diplomacy is always the first thing to use rather than military power ...
2008-02-15 20:54 < quanticle|away> Ed_Poor: Oh come now, you don't really believe that Iran is a real threat to the same Israeli army that took out 5 Arab armies and air forces simultaneously...
2008-02-15 20:54 * quanticle|away is really leaving now
2008-02-15 20:54 < arcimboldo_> Iran has a great educated elite which is not at all in line with the Islamists.
2008-02-15 20:55 < arcimboldo_> Supporting those would be the key to progress.
2008-02-15 20:55 < cimon> Ed_Poor: I am just saying that the US approach towareds Iran is always through confrontation... LIke not even letting Ahmedinejad visit ground zero.. Just a lack of diplomatic grace at every turn.
2008-02-15 20:55 < TheWeasel> As an aside, I think a post-war Iran would have been MUCH smoother.
2008-02-15 20:55 < Ed_Poor> In the strategic sense, the 1% of the Middle East which is Israeli territory is not in much danger. They can always nuke their opponents.
2008-02-15 20:56 < arcimboldo_> True, Iran is more ethnically homogeneous and does not have the Sunni terrorist base.
2008-02-15 20:56 < Ed_Poor> But me walking armed to the teeth through my neighborhood is not peaceful coexistence.
2008-02-15 20:56 * Mike_H NP: Billy Joel - The Longest Time (1984)
2008-02-15 20:56 < TheWeasel> To finally give everyone a reason to be anti-semitic.
2008-02-15 20:56 < arcimboldo_> Although, post-revolution Iran wasn't the place to be ...
2008-02-15 20:57 < Ed_Poor> cimon, are you saying that Bush's refusal to allow a state visit to a "sensitive" area of America is confrontational?
2008-02-15 20:57 < TheWeasel> not sure how the two regimes compare in popularity.
2008-02-15 20:58 < Ed_Poor> Maybe Bush can visit Mecca and pray with Jerry Falwell in the name of Jesus Christ, amen?
2008-02-15 20:58 < cimon> Ed_Poor: not confrontational, but more like tacky...
2008-02-15 20:58 < TheWeasel> that's an odd comparison
2008-02-15 20:58 < Ed_Poor> Perhaps it is Ahmedinejad who is being confrontational, by offering a plan he knows Bush has to turn down.
2008-02-15 20:58 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: It's the similar kind of unpragmatic behaviour of US governments that has helped the Castro regime survive to date.
2008-02-15 20:59 < cimon> Ed_Poor: the pope was welcomed to the Blue Mosque
2008-02-15 20:59 < TheWeasel> that sounds like ground zero is a religious pilgrimage site, which it is not
2008-02-15 20:59 < TheWeasel> or shouldn't be
2008-02-15 20:59 * Ed_Poor now understands why WP has problems with neutrality
2008-02-15 20:59 < TheWeasel> (probably is now)
2008-02-15 20:59 < Demi> wasn't there some controversy about iran's holocaust deniers visiting some holocaust museums, sites or memorials in germany?
2008-02-15 20:59 < TheWeasel> Well, Turkey is kinda different.
2008-02-15 20:59 < TheWeasel> Well, Ahmedinejad was refused visa for the World Cup.
2008-02-15 21:00 < Ed_Poor> I'm observing that the emotional intensity surrounding the two sites is comparable.
2008-02-15 21:00 < TheWeasel> here
2008-02-15 21:00 < cimon> although, there is precedent. I suppose you could say that Sharon not being welcomed at that one mosque in jerusalem was a similar thing...
2008-02-15 21:00 < Ed_Poor> arc, I've wondered about the Castro thing. If Bush wants to swing a big stick, why didn't he just invade Cuba?
2008-02-15 21:00 * TroubleClef causes trouble
2008-02-15 21:01 < TheWeasel> it would be terrible if Ground Zero was as specifically anti-Muslim as Mecca is pro-Muslim
2008-02-15 21:01 < Ed_Poor> They have no allies in the region, and their military is underequipped.
2008-02-15 21:01 < cimon> wasn't there some sort of treaty with Cuba?
2008-02-15 21:01 < TheWeasel> heh, worked real well last time they tried
2008-02-15 21:01 < cimon> like they got guanhtnano and all that
2008-02-15 21:01 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: They now have allies - Invading Cuba would mean more Chavez' in the rest of America
2008-02-15 21:01 < Ed_Poor> God forbid their injured troops would have to resort to Cuban socialized medicine. I've seen reports of their hospitals.
2008-02-15 21:02 < Demi> i have kind of a problem with political photo ops being made at such a site at all, but of course it's hypocritical for someone like bush, who exists basically because he was canonized there, to take a stand against that.
2008-02-15 21:02 < TheWeasel> Cuban socialized medicine is not dysfunctional because it is socialized.
2008-02-15 21:02 < TheWeasel> it is disfunctional because there is no money to spend
2008-02-15 21:02 < TheWeasel> *y
2008-02-15 21:02 * Ed_Poor grins at TheWeasel
2008-02-15 21:03 < TheWeasel> Hm?
2008-02-15 21:03 < Ed_Poor> The main point of the pro-Capitalist critique of socialized medicine is that socialism does not provide enough money for the system.
2008-02-15 21:04 < Ed_Poor> It's under-financed, because it does not respond to consumer demand.
2008-02-15 21:04 < TheWeasel> those are two different things
2008-02-15 21:04 < TheWeasel> of course it's easier to "afford" socialized healthcare if you have more money to spend in the first place
2008-02-15 21:04 * Ed_Poor wonders what the two different things are
2008-02-15 21:04 < motherlode> hello
2008-02-15 21:04 < motherlode> wats going on
2008-02-15 21:04 < TheWeasel> but the system is not inherently inefficient in that way
2008-02-15 21:05 < motherlode> how come whenever i upload pictures of my penis it gets deleted
2008-02-15 21:05 < motherlode> please tell me!
2008-02-15 21:05 < TheWeasel> it's too short.
2008-02-15 21:05 < Ed_Poor> My local pharmacy is always fully stocked, because of an economic factor called "demand". Perhaps you've heard of the concept?
2008-02-15 21:05 < TheWeasel> I have.
2008-02-15 21:05 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: Again, there is ambiguity - all the other countries in Latin America have their poorest citizens lack any kind of access to healthcare - in that sense, the Cuban system is far superior.
2008-02-15 21:06 < TheWeasel> So is mine, because demand doesn't magically go away.
2008-02-15 21:06 < TheWeasel> Right.
2008-02-15 21:06 < TheWeasel> ...just because government pays part of your pill bill
2008-02-15 21:06 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:06 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:06 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:06 < motherlode> ive heard rumors that the israeli government owns wikipedia
2008-02-15 21:06 < motherlode> is this true
2008-02-15 21:06 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:06 < Ed_Poor> arc, can you provide a WP article or a web link for that "all other countries" claim?
2008-02-15 21:06 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:06 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:06 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:07 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:07 < motherlode> hey scat foundue can i have some of those tasty nigger balls
2008-02-15 21:07 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:07 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:07 < ScatFondue> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them. Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds. Niggger eunuchs for my muff ohhh yeahh
2008-02-15 21:07 < Ed_Poor> someone be the admin, or give me admin rights here
2008-02-15 21:07 < motherlode> so anyway
2008-02-15 21:07 < Ed_Poor> thanks, Andrew
2008-02-15 21:07 < wimt> Gah, my connection is being laggy
2008-02-15 21:07 < AndrewB> No problem
2008-02-15 21:07 < motherlode> does the israeli government own wikipedia
2008-02-15 21:07 < motherlode> a website said that
2008-02-15 21:07 < Enterprise_Cat> holy crap
2008-02-15 21:07 < motherlode> but i dont know if it's true
2008-02-15 21:07 < motherlode> does jimbo wales know
2008-02-15 21:07 < motherlode> ask him
2008-02-15 21:07 < motherlode> he probly knows everything
2008-02-15 21:08 < The359> someone might want to watch motherlode as well
2008-02-15 21:08 < motherlode> why
2008-02-15 21:08 < motherlode> what have i done
2008-02-15 21:08 < Ed_Poor> we were discussing demand, and its effect on supply
2008-02-15 21:08 < TheWeasel> someone else to kick while you're at it
2008-02-15 21:08 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: First give me the Wikipedia links with your reports about the Cuban hospitals ...
2008-02-15 21:08 < Ed_Poor> Should we throw in "price" while we're at it?
2008-02-15 21:08 < TheWeasel> Oh, gladly.
2008-02-15 21:08 < Ed_Poor> I tried putting in the info about Cuban hospitals last year, but it was deleted.
2008-02-15 21:08 < arcimboldo_> Then I'll look for mine.
2008-02-15 21:09 < Ed_Poor> Some wikipedians like to suppress information when it "supports a POV" that they oppose
2008-02-15 21:09 < TheWeasel> well, duh.
2008-02-15 21:09 < TheWeasel> crusaders have been with us for a long time
2008-02-15 21:10 < TheWeasel> but "suppressing MY information" by definition makes you sound paranoid.
2008-02-15 21:10 < TheWeasel> so I'd be careful with that
2008-02-15 21:11 < TheWeasel> and if you have to, just assume that there are conspiracies and counterconspiracies
2008-02-15 21:11 < Ed_Poor> kick them when they're down, eh?
2008-02-15 21:11 < TheWeasel> hm?
2008-02-15 21:11 < TheWeasel> I'm not kicking anyone
2008-02-15 21:11 < arcimboldo_> That was a reference to Abu Ghraib I guess
2008-02-15 21:11 < TheWeasel> I'm just warning of the "concerted effort" theory
2008-02-15 21:12 < cimon> Ed_Poor: just FYI, Sweden and Finland have universal health care, and it works just fine...
2008-02-15 21:12 < arcimboldo_> I see, the devil has taken over Sweden and Finland.
2008-02-15 21:12 < TheWeasel> cimon: But you could spend it on three cars and a yacht instead!
2008-02-15 21:12 < cimon> don't hear many people complaiing about the quality of Canadian helath care either
2008-02-15 21:13 < TheWeasel> instead of financing cancer-ridden leeches
2008-02-15 21:13 < Mike_H> This week Britney Spears married her manager/boyfriend Abu Ghraib in Mexico. Sorry, boys, she's off the market.
2008-02-15 21:13 < TheWeasel> *belch
2008-02-15 21:13 < cimon> Mike_H: Can I have some of what you are smoking?
2008-02-15 21:13 < Mike_H> cimon: :o
2008-02-15 21:14 < TheWeasel> cimon: It's not on your prescription.
2008-02-15 21:14 * brown_cat slaps cimon silly
2008-02-15 21:14 < cimon> TheWeasel: well, I as a matter of fact, have just taken an opioid which is on my rescritpion
2008-02-15 21:15 * brown_cat slaps Mike_H silly for trying to seduce cimon
2008-02-15 21:15 < TheWeasel> be careful man, don't mix
2008-02-15 21:15 < cimon> or rather this is a opioid prewatchamacallit
2008-02-15 21:15 < cimon> something that becomes an opioid in your liver
2008-02-15 21:16 < cimon> precursor?
2008-02-15 21:16 < TheWeasel> heh
2008-02-15 21:16 < Ed_Poor> Okay, I reviewed the WP article. Hilda Molina's points made the cut.
2008-02-15 21:17 < Ed_Poor> But her criticisims are phrased in general terms, there are no independent statistics. (WHO gets its info from the Cuban gov't)
2008-02-15 21:18 < Ed_Poor> If they had nothing to hide, they would invite American reporters to do news reports and documentaries on their healthcare system.
2008-02-15 21:18 * TheWeasel is not going to defend Cuba as a paradise in terms of healthcare and indeed has little sympathy for its government
2008-02-15 21:18 < TheWeasel> Ed_Poor: Because the Americans have an embargo in place.
2008-02-15 21:19 < Ed_Poor> Cuba's main propaganda claim is that it has the "best" healthcare system due to its "wonderful" socialist economy, and if America would only lift the embargo it would be perfect.
2008-02-15 21:19 < TheWeasel> ...but all that has nothing to do with sense and nonsense in shared insurance burden
2008-02-15 21:19 < TheWeasel> Ed_Poor: You are preaching to the choir. Nobody is defending the ditch of Cuba, neither is it representative.
2008-02-15 21:20 < Ed_Poor> While I don't understand the rationale behind the embargo, I do know something about what happens in dark places where no light ever shines.
2008-02-15 21:20 < zvook> ...
2008-02-15 21:20 < TheWeasel> heh, so it's our fault but we still laugh at it?
2008-02-15 21:20 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-02-15 21:20 < TheWeasel> that's interesting
2008-02-15 21:20 < arcimboldo_> And Ed_Poor's main propaganda claim is that it has the "worst" healthcare system due to its "abysmal" socialist economy, and if they just got rid of Castro they would all starve for the US system.
2008-02-15 21:21 < arcimboldo_> And neither of the two is the truth ...
2008-02-15 21:21 < Ed_Poor> I'm opposed to the Cuban embargo, personally.
2008-02-15 21:21 < Ed_Poor> Either invade them and get it over with, or just be nice to them.
2008-02-15 21:21 < TheWeasel> yea, it's silly, plus they make awesom rum.
2008-02-15 21:21 * TheWeasel lives in a country which gets Cuban rum, sadly the revenue goes to Castro
2008-02-15 21:22 < arcimboldo_> At least socialism means that the 60s nostalgia in Habana still exists, since there was no money for new construction.
2008-02-15 21:22 < TheWeasel> haha
2008-02-15 21:22 < TheWeasel> and 50s in Pyongyang
2008-02-15 21:22 < TheWeasel> which has next to no healthcare at all
2008-02-15 21:23 < cimon> let me just note for the record that the word "pork" for political subsidies is one of my favorite words of the english language, right there with filibuster
2008-02-15 21:23 < Ed_Poor> arc, that's not my point at all
2008-02-15 21:23 < TheWeasel> I like "scallywag"
2008-02-15 21:24 < Ed_Poor> I'm saying that we don't KNOW anything about their healthcare system other than what they tell us.
2008-02-15 21:24 < Ed_Poor> I'm also saying that systems which are "transparent" tend to run better.
2008-02-15 21:24 < TheWeasel> people have been in their hospitals without being Communists.
2008-02-15 21:24 < TheWeasel> tourists and such.
2008-02-15 21:25 < TheWeasel> now that might still differ from what the little guy gets, but it gives you an idea
2008-02-15 21:25 * The359 can't find it
2008-02-15 21:25 < TheWeasel> if Cuba works anything like East Germany and other states, people get reasonable standards of healthcare against common problems fairly efficiently.
2008-02-15 21:25 < The359> Is there a minimum page length for a Good Article?
2008-02-15 21:26 < Wikiacc> The359: de jure, probably not
2008-02-15 21:26 < The359> or article length, make that
2008-02-15 21:26 < TheWeasel> it's just the big operations and such that the system cannot provide
2008-02-15 21:26 < Ed_Poor> I worked at a private hospital in Huntington, NY. They do not turn away uninsured patients.
2008-02-15 21:26 < Wikiacc> The359: but de facto, in order for an article to be full it should be a certain length
2008-02-15 21:26 < zvook> The359: don't think so, just broad coverage is needed innit
2008-02-15 21:26 < Ed_Poor> I don't know if that's because there's a law, or because it's a Catholic hospital.
2008-02-15 21:26 < cimon> Ed_Poor: aren't shriner hospitals kinda like that too
2008-02-15 21:26 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: probably both
2008-02-15 21:27 < zvook> is there a suggestion that foriegn reporters are not allowed in Cuban hospitals?
2008-02-15 21:27 < cimon> not even if they are sick?
2008-02-15 21:28 < TheWeasel> heh, you don't need a camera when you're sick
2008-02-15 21:28 < TheWeasel> I guess there are restrictions on what you may take photographs of
2008-02-15 21:28 < Ed_Poor> Anyway, the article on Healthcare in Cuba is very poorly written
2008-02-15 21:28 < TheWeasel> but that's not especially socialist, authoritarian governments tend to do that
2008-02-15 21:28 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: {{sofixit}} :-P
2008-02-15 21:28 < Ed_Poor> I'd like to start it over as as stub.
2008-02-15 21:29 < Ed_Poor> It completely glosses over the controversy about how good the system is.
2008-02-15 21:29 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: well it wouldn
2008-02-15 21:29 < Wikiacc> 't be that hard to rewrite it
2008-02-15 21:29 < Wikiacc> provided ample citations and strict NPOV
2008-02-15 21:30 < Ed_Poor> I have tried many times and in many article to do that, and my work is deleted.
2008-02-15 21:30 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: any particular reason given?
2008-02-15 21:31 < Ed_Poor> things like "that information advances a POV"
2008-02-15 21:31 < Ed_Poor> I am, in fact, on probation for tendentious editing
2008-02-15 21:31 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: well, sure, but as long as counter-arguments are given, information advancing other POVs is given, it's fine
2008-02-15 21:31 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: really
2008-02-15 21:31 < Ed_Poor> I know that.
2008-02-15 21:31 < MessedRocker> []{}#%^*+=_\|~<>€£¥•.,?!'
2008-02-15 21:31 < Ed_Poor> Care to help me neutralize an article or two?
2008-02-15 21:31 < Wikiacc> hi MessedRocker, hi special characters
2008-02-15 21:31 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: heh i'm up to it
2008-02-15 21:32 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: which one/s?
2008-02-15 21:32 < Ed_Poor> okay, what's your major topics of interest? Science, history, religion?
2008-02-15 21:33 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: anything really
2008-02-15 21:33 * TheWeasel finds the bias toward African Elephants in the Elephant article outrageous
2008-02-15 21:33 * brown_cat rolls into a ball
2008-02-15 21:33 < Lubaf> Ed_Poor: What, you mean delete it?
2008-02-15 21:33 < Ed_Poor> My favorites are intelligent design (but I'm banned from that), global warming theory (currently redirected to [[global warming]] I think), Communist atrocities
2008-02-15 21:33 * Lubaf gets out the neutralizer.
2008-02-15 21:33 * Enterprise_Cat pulls out a phaser
2008-02-15 21:34 < Ed_Poor> I've lost track, Lubaf, of the amount of information I've put into Wikipedia which has been censored by POV pushers.
2008-02-15 21:34 * TheWeasel thinks people who are active on those lists should have seen coming everything that came.
2008-02-15 21:34 < TheWeasel> *those articles
2008-02-15 21:34 < Ed_Poor> Then they realized the way to get rid of me is to haul me up in front of the arbcom and accuse ME of pov-pushing.
2008-02-15 21:35 < TheWeasel> It is very hard to believe that you didn't in some way.
2008-02-15 21:35 < TheWeasel> bona fide
2008-02-15 21:35 < TheWeasel> because one man's neutralizing is another's POV-pushing
2008-02-15 21:35 < TheWeasel> it depends on where you perceive the center
2008-02-15 21:35 < Ed_Poor> That's a common perception, but please give even ONE example of a biased edit I have ever made.
2008-02-15 21:35 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: I remember back in the day people were getting into dramas with yourself
2008-02-15 21:36 < TheWeasel> I said I find it very hard to believe, I haven't seen any of them
2008-02-15 21:36 < Ed_Poor> Ah, well maybe it was mostly about the drama.
2008-02-15 21:36 < Wikiacc> "back in the day" being when I was very active on Wikipedia
2008-02-15 21:36 < Ed_Poor> I was immature then ... ;-)
2008-02-15 21:36 < Enterprise_Cat> Time for another crazy AWB run on Wikipedia
2008-02-15 21:36 < Enterprise_Cat> Let's see if I can't fine me some typos
2008-02-15 21:36 < TheWeasel> but people being mostly active on those articles are usually assumed to be in for a brawl.
2008-02-15 21:36 < Enterprise_Cat> *find
2008-02-15 21:37 < TheWeasel> Maybe you're the shining exception to confirm the rule, but I doubt it.
2008-02-15 21:37 < Ed_Poor> I've changed my approach. I simply don't edit those articles.
2008-02-15 21:37 < Lubaf> "Some pussy breast" has two obvious contexts.
2008-02-15 21:37 < Lubaf> Meat, and meat.
2008-02-15 21:37 < TheWeasel> then, I don't know.
2008-02-15 21:37 < Wikiacc> Lubaf: that was quite random
2008-02-15 21:38 < Wikiacc> hi CardinalNumber, Carsten
2008-02-15 21:38 < Ed_Poor> I don't blame them. One media critic says of liberals that they are often so far left that they think even the CENTER is right
2008-02-15 21:38 < JessicaTaylor> omg
2008-02-15 21:38 < JessicaTaylor> I hate this
2008-02-15 21:38 < JessicaTaylor> Why did I log in as Carsten?
2008-02-15 21:38 < JessicaTaylor> Hello Wikiacc
2008-02-15 21:38 < Wikiacc> JessicaTaylor: what's your irc client
2008-02-15 21:39 < JessicaTaylor> ChatZilla :\
2008-02-15 21:39 < JessicaTaylor> I'll rejoin hang on
2008-02-15 21:39 < Wikiacc> JessicaTaylor: k
2008-02-15 21:39 < Ed_Poor> Probably the hardest thing for a writer, especially one with strong beliefs, is to accept the idea that other people might (1) disagree with them and (2) not be insane or criminals.
2008-02-15 21:39 < TheWeasel> The political center of American discourse has shifted so far right in the US (while largely in synch with Europe in the mid-60s) that I imagine that in many people's minds the reverse is true.
2008-02-15 21:39 < yao_ziyuan> let's play a game:
2008-02-15 21:39 < yao_ziyuan> i want a native english speaker to conceive an english word that he thinks i (as a native chinese) should not know
2008-02-15 21:39 < yao_ziyuan> who is to challenge me?
2008-02-15 21:39 < Ed_Poor> Dawkins has that problem in spades.
2008-02-15 21:39 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: IMO, referring to leftists as "liberals" is an insult to classical liberalism
2008-02-15 21:39 < White_Cat> Ed_Poor center is right of left
2008-02-15 21:40 < Crispy> yao_ziyuan: Estemunially.
2008-02-15 21:40 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: how much english literature have you read
2008-02-15 21:40 < yao_ziyuan> ...
2008-02-15 21:40 < Wikiacc> Crispy: now, now, even I don't know that one
2008-02-15 21:40 < Ed_Poor> Yes, as a classical liberal myself (in the tradition of Thoreau and Gandhi) I resent that insult.
2008-02-15 21:40 < yao_ziyuan> Wikiacc: almost none
2008-02-15 21:40 < Wikiacc> wb JessicaTaylor
2008-02-15 21:40 < Crispy> Wikiacc: I don't blame you. Neither do I.
2008-02-15 21:40 < Wikiacc> Crispy: XD
2008-02-15 21:40 < TheWeasel> IMO, using "liberals" as a slur for left-of-center people is one of the most mischievous Roveisms that have plagued the last ten years in America.
2008-02-15 21:40 < yao_ziyuan> ...
2008-02-15 21:40 < JessicaTaylor> Thanks
2008-02-15 21:40 < Ed_Poor> yao_ziyuan, it is serendipitous that you should offer to play such a game.
2008-02-15 21:41 < yao_ziyuan> ...
2008-02-15 21:41 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: it's a bit older than that, the perversion of the word "liberal" in america's been going on for quite a few decades
2008-02-15 21:41 < Ed_Poor> Are the terms "liberal" and "conservative" seen as slurs?
2008-02-15 21:41 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: any particular motivation behind this?
2008-02-15 21:41 < TheWeasel> Heh, I don't mind it being used for social democrats.
2008-02-15 21:41 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: for some, yes
2008-02-15 21:42 < TheWeasel> I mind the strong pejorative label that it has become.
2008-02-15 21:42 < Ed_Poor> If so, what are the neutral connotation terms for the positions?
2008-02-15 21:42 < TheWeasel> Ed_Poor: "strong" conservative vs. "screaming" liberal
2008-02-15 21:42 < Ed_Poor> lol
2008-02-15 21:42 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: you may laugh, but some people actually believe such generalizations
2008-02-15 21:42 < TheWeasel> conservative is overwhelmingly positive while liberal is overwhelmingly liberal, or at least has been until at least 2006.
2008-02-15 21:43 < Ed_Poor> A clever way to refuse to discuss something is to insist that all your opponent's terms are offensive.
2008-02-15 21:43 < TheWeasel> *overwhelmingly negative
2008-02-15 21:43 < TheWeasel> I'm not refusing to discuss
2008-02-15 21:43 < Ed_Poor> not you, Weasel
2008-02-15 21:43 < TheWeasel> I'm just pointing out that the use of "liberal" as a swearword is an awesome bit of framing
2008-02-15 21:43 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: well, that's not quite as bad as insisting that your opponent's terms aren't being used correctly, and to supply your own definitions
2008-02-15 21:44 < Ed_Poor> I've encountered a lot of evil in this world. And "all that doeth evil hate the light."
2008-02-15 21:44 < NotACow> DEATH TO STATISTICS ABUSE
2008-02-15 21:44 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: most discussions of that that I've seen say that the 1988 election was when that started
2008-02-15 21:44 < yao_ziyuan> i was answering the same game in other channels
2008-02-15 21:44 < brown_cat> You affected the outcome by measuring it!!
2008-02-15 21:44 < Ed_Poor> In a friendly discussion, people are willing to provide definitions for terms.
2008-02-15 21:44 < Wikiacc> NotACow: 92.443% of all statistics are made up on the spot
2008-02-15 21:44 < TheWeasel> Yea, mostly Dan Quayle
2008-02-15 21:44 < yao_ziyuan> Wikiacc: the game has something to do with a research question i'm having
2008-02-15 21:45 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: yes, but arguing over semantics gets dull and confusing
2008-02-15 21:45 < Ed_Poor> omg Wikiacc beat me to the punch
2008-02-15 21:45 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: what sort of research question?
2008-02-15 21:45 * Ed_Poor observes that 50% of the time, he can't think of a clever retort fast enough to use it
2008-02-15 21:45 < Wikiacc> heh
2008-02-15 21:45 < Crispy> Anyone want to buy a fish from me for $0.75?
2008-02-15 21:45 < cimon> okay, can somebody explain this english language phrase to me?
2008-02-15 21:45 < cimon> "they became less resolute in denying permissive sex."
2008-02-15 21:45 < Wikiacc> Crispy: not especially
2008-02-15 21:45 < yao_ziyuan> Wikiacc: a native speaker of a language foreign to me must know many rarely used words in that language
2008-02-15 21:45 < Crispy> (+ shipping)
2008-02-15 21:46 < Crispy> Wikiacc: You sure? It's a good fish ...
2008-02-15 21:46 < Ed_Poor> I think it was back in 1984 when Reagan called Dukakis a liberal, knowing that the Duke would resist the label
2008-02-15 21:46 < cimon> what does "denying permissive sex" mean?
2008-02-15 21:46 < TheWeasel> cimon: They less ardently opposed sexual freedom
2008-02-15 21:46 < Wikiacc> Crispy: I'm afraid it won't be so good when it gets to me
2008-02-15 21:46 < yao_ziyuan> Wikiacc: it is an advantage of that native speaker over me. i want to know how serious this situation is
2008-02-15 21:46 < TheWeasel> Dukakis ran in 1988.
2008-02-15 21:46 < Ed_Poor> You can call me anything you want - I'm too confident to mind a little name-calling.
2008-02-15 21:46 < yao_ziyuan> Wikiacc: and what countermeasures can be applied
2008-02-15 21:46 < Crispy> Wikiacc: I'll put salt in it.
2008-02-15 21:46 < Crispy> Wikiacc: And aluminum foil.
2008-02-15 21:47 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: well what sort of advantage
2008-02-15 21:47 * TheWeasel doesn't intend the name-call at all
2008-02-15 21:47 < yao_ziyuan> the advantage of "know the rare"
2008-02-15 21:47 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: in conversation, one well-schooled in a foreign language will know most of the words used
2008-02-15 21:47 < Ed_Poor> oh, that's right - it was Mondale in 1984
2008-02-15 21:47 < TheWeasel> I wish people would quit getting persecution complexes
2008-02-15 21:47 * Ed_Poor needs an online encyclopedia to keep it all straight
2008-02-15 21:47 < TheWeasel> and self-martyrization complexes
2008-02-15 21:48 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: that's like wishing that people would quit being dramatic, and judging from Wikipedia here, that'll never happen
2008-02-15 21:48 < TheWeasel> Seriously though, people love being victims of something
2008-02-15 21:48 < TheWeasel> it's a very powerful position.
2008-02-15 21:49 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: but I'd say that with enough study of literature, one "knows the rare" to an extent about the same as a slightly-less-read native speaker
2008-02-15 21:49 < yao_ziyuan> ah. so you think literature is key
2008-02-15 21:49 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: I'd argue that people who play the victim do it for the sympathy and the support that goes with it
2008-02-15 21:50 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: in my opinion.
2008-02-15 21:50 < yao_ziyuan> i just had another way of testing this: i watch you guys talk in this channel and report words i see i don't know
2008-02-15 21:50 < Enterprise_Cat> Only 1/53 pages had typos on them?!
2008-02-15 21:50 < Ed_Poor> You 2 W's are on to something
2008-02-15 21:50 < Enterprise_Cat> That's... shocking
2008-02-15 21:50 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: this is a good channel for that
2008-02-15 21:50 < arcimboldo_> yao_ziyuan: Actually, most of us here are not native speakers of English
2008-02-15 21:50 < Wikiacc> arcimboldo_: most are
2008-02-15 21:50 < yao_ziyuan> ./...
2008-02-15 21:50 < TheWeasel> well... being in a position of victim enables you to rally people behind you.
2008-02-15 21:50 < Wikiacc> arcimboldo_: a large minority aren't though
2008-02-15 21:50 < arcimboldo_> Wikiacc: shall we count?
2008-02-15 21:51 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor is.
2008-02-15 21:51 < Wikiacc> arcimboldo_: counting people active only, or lurkers too?
2008-02-15 21:51 * Wikiacc is.
2008-02-15 21:51 < yao_ziyuan> the language in the english wikipedia seems pretty native
2008-02-15 21:51 < arcimboldo_> Mostly teh active ones.
2008-02-15 21:51 * arcimboldo_ is not
2008-02-15 21:51 < yao_ziyuan> although sometimes i do spot non-native writing
2008-02-15 21:51 < TheWeasel> yao_ziyuan: There is some terrible English in Germany-themed articles
2008-02-15 21:51 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: I tend to see the non-native writing mostly in articles about obscure topics in Asia and Europe
2008-02-15 21:51 < yao_ziyuan> let's count!
2008-02-15 21:51 < TheWeasel> especially on towns.
2008-02-15 21:51 < Messedrocker> I AM NOW ON MY COMPUTER AGAIN
2008-02-15 21:52 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: aber die Deutsche Wikipedia hat schlechte Deutsch im Artikel auf USA
2008-02-15 21:52 * Ed_Poor feels people are picking on him by accusing him of adopting the victim role
2008-02-15 21:52 * yao_ziyuan is chinese
2008-02-15 21:52 * Wikiacc probably screwed up half his prepositions there
2008-02-15 21:52 < Mike2> yeah, the Burj Dubai is going to be pretty big http://img.waffleimages.com/a45556b621dfc00880fd3588bf85ffa58ae6cefa/2037044397_fb0c2daaf5_o.jpg
2008-02-15 21:52 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: i could tell by your nick
2008-02-15 21:52 < TheWeasel> Ed_Poor: That's meta-self-victimization
2008-02-15 21:52 < TheWeasel> As noted before, India-related articles are bafflingly shoddy at times.
2008-02-15 21:52 < Wikiacc> Ed_Poor: I don't think that applies to you, really
2008-02-15 21:52 < arcimboldo_> just two errors, Wikiacc
2008-02-15 21:53 < yao_ziyuan> let's report our native languages
2008-02-15 21:53 < Wikiacc> arcimboldo_: what were they
2008-02-15 21:53 < arcimboldo_> "schlechtes"
2008-02-15 21:53 < Wikiacc> ah
2008-02-15 21:53 * yao_ziyuan : chinese
2008-02-15 21:53 < arcimboldo_> "im Artikel *über die* USA"
2008-02-15 21:53 < Wikiacc> arcimboldo_: dankeschön :)
2008-02-15 21:53 < TheWeasel> holy shit, that's a big phallic symbol
2008-02-15 21:53 < Wikiacc> hi Julbo3
2008-02-15 21:53 < Julbo3> hello
2008-02-15 21:54 * TheWeasel speaks German in daily life
2008-02-15 21:54 < yao_ziyuan> but we can just see the address everyone
2008-02-15 21:54 < arcimboldo_> ドイツ語
2008-02-15 21:54 < yao_ziyuan> ...
2008-02-15 21:54 < yao_ziyuan> we can peek the Info of everyone in this room
2008-02-15 21:54 < TheWeasel> to what end
2008-02-15 21:54 < Enterprise_Cat> ≥┘?
2008-02-15 21:55 < yao_ziyuan> for example, Username: n=chatzill@s169.HtokyoFL2.vectant.ne.jp
2008-02-15 21:55 < Enterprise_Cat> hA!
2008-02-15 21:55 < Enterprise_Cat> Bot not me!
2008-02-15 21:55 < yao_ziyuan> this is Info for arcimboldo_
2008-02-15 21:55 < arcimboldo_> Wikiacc: actually, the first "Deutsche" should have a lower case d, that would be a third mistake.
2008-02-15 21:55 < Enterprise_Cat> Enterprise_Cat!n=FastLiza@wikipedia/FastLizard4
2008-02-15 21:55 < Wikiacc> arcimboldo_: not the second one though?
2008-02-15 21:55 < arcimboldo_> But one can argue about that one.
2008-02-15 21:55 < Wikiacc> arcimboldo_: ah
2008-02-15 21:55 < Wikiacc> hi Miranda
2008-02-15 21:56 < yao_ziyuan> i wish there be a script that can list everyone here's address
2008-02-15 21:56 < TheWeasel> it's freezing here.
2008-02-15 21:56 < TheWeasel> Es ist schweinekalt!
2008-02-15 21:56 < Miranda> hi Wikiacc
2008-02-15 21:56 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: where would that be?
2008-02-15 21:56 < Enterprise_Cat> yao_ziyuan: /whois #wikipedia might work, but it might flood you off the network too
2008-02-15 21:56 < arcimboldo_> But if you consider "Deutsche Wikipedia" as a fixed term then one could argue using upper case spelling
2008-02-15 21:56 < TheWeasel> Berlin
2008-02-15 21:56 < Wikiacc> hi Brian_M
2008-02-15 21:56 < Wikiacc> arcimboldo_: ah
2008-02-15 21:56 < TroubleClef> You can /whois whole channels?
2008-02-15 21:56 < TheWeasel> arcimboldo_: That sounds like a ferry company
2008-02-15 21:56 * yao_ziyuan is gonna push the nuke button without a second of thought
2008-02-15 21:56 < Wikiacc> TroubleClef: don't try it
2008-02-15 21:56 < Wikiacc> hi the_giver
2008-02-15 21:56 < Enterprise_Cat> TroubleClef: Yes, but don't do it
2008-02-15 21:57 < TheWeasel> "he went to Heligoland on a ship of the Deutsche Wikipedia Reederei
2008-02-15 21:57 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-02-15 21:57 < TheWeasel> the cruise that anyone can edit
2008-02-15 21:57 < Wikiacc> heh
2008-02-15 21:57 < TroubleClef> But I'm TroubleClef. That's what I do.
2008-02-15 21:57 < yao_ziyuan> sigh, my pidgin does not display any result
2008-02-15 21:57 < Messedrocker> imagine if a vandal comes along and redirects the cruise to swaziland
2008-02-15 21:57 < TheWeasel> or an insurance company
2008-02-15 21:57 < Wikiacc> Messedrocker: Swaziland? damn
2008-02-15 21:57 < TheWeasel> Don't worry, Deutsche Wikipedia covers you.
2008-02-15 21:58 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: does that mean I have to do all my paperwork in German?
2008-02-15 21:58 < yao_ziyuan> I WILL REPORT ANY UNKNOWN WORDS HERE FROM NOW ON
2008-02-15 21:58 < TheWeasel> Yea, thats interesting since Swaziland is landlocked for all I know.
2008-02-15 21:58 < TheWeasel> JAWOHL.
2008-02-15 21:58 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: well, damnit, we can vandalize South Africa to give it a passage to the sea
2008-02-15 21:58 < TheWeasel> haha
2008-02-15 21:59 * TheWeasel remembers a great Peanuts strip where Schroeder plays something on the piano and someone walks past and asks "Beethoven again?" and Schroeder turns around and says in big Gothic letters "JAWOHL"
2008-02-15 22:00 * Wikiacc likes Beethoven's piano music
2008-02-15 22:01 < Wikiacc> I can play the Pathetique sonata, it's a great work of music
2008-02-15 22:01 * Enterprise_Cat can play the first movement of Moonlight Sonata
2008-02-15 22:01 < TheWeasel> the third movement of the Moonlight Sonata is the most breathtaking piece of music ever.
2008-02-15 22:02 < Enterprise_Cat> At least, I think it's the first movement
2008-02-15 22:02 < Wikiacc> the second's too Mozartian in my opinion
2008-02-15 22:02 < Enterprise_Cat> Moonlight Sonata - Adagio
2008-02-15 22:02 < TheWeasel> The second is a nice little menuet
2008-02-15 22:02 < TheWeasel> nothing special
2008-02-15 22:02 < Wikiacc> I prefer Beethoven's first movements, they're very built-up and powerful
2008-02-15 22:02 < TheWeasel> the third is intense
2008-02-15 22:02 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: it is
2008-02-15 22:03 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: I haven't tried playing it
2008-02-15 22:03 < danny{SL}`> I remember reading an academic paper comparing Beethoven's Ninth to rape.
2008-02-15 22:03 < Enterprise_Cat> Which one is the third?
2008-02-15 22:03 < Enterprise_Cat> The very slooooooow part?
2008-02-15 22:03 < TheWeasel> Neither.
2008-02-15 22:03 < TheWeasel> no, thats the first
2008-02-15 22:03 < DannyLilithborne> it was amusing and offensive at the same time
2008-02-15 22:03 < yao_ziyuan> menuet: unknown but i guess it has something to do with "duet"
2008-02-15 22:04 < TheWeasel> it's an old dance that was often included in baroque suites
2008-02-15 22:04 < cimon> I want to bounce a theory off this channel...
2008-02-15 22:04 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: no
2008-02-15 22:04 < TheWeasel> and survived into classical times
2008-02-15 22:04 < Wikiacc> cimon: what theory would that be
2008-02-15 22:04 < yao_ziyuan> not even in my f*cking little poor dictionary
2008-02-15 22:04 < Wikiacc> the ending of the second movement of the Pathetique's very menuetish
2008-02-15 22:05 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: get a better dictionary in that case :P
2008-02-15 22:05 * yao_ziyuan goes to wikipedia for menuet
2008-02-15 22:05 < cimon> If Obama gets elected, he will be forced into mainly concentrating on foreign policy, with the democratic house of reps riding domestic policy...
2008-02-15 22:05 < yao_ziyuan> Wikiacc: i intentionally chose a very poor dictionary file. very poor
2008-02-15 22:05 < TheWeasel> He's not a grits guy.
2008-02-15 22:05 < Wikiacc> cimon: makes sense, considering the people he surrounds himself with and his comparative skills in the two spheres
2008-02-15 22:05 < TheWeasel> he doesn't like detail
2008-02-15 22:05 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: why would that be
2008-02-15 22:05 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: he likes platitudes and ideals
2008-02-15 22:06 < TheWeasel> Correct.
2008-02-15 22:06 * TheWeasel has never been an Obama fan
2008-02-15 22:06 < yao_ziyuan> Wikiacc: i was wrong. not intentionally. happened to be with a very poor dict. but i downloaded some very comprehensive ones yesterday
2008-02-15 22:06 < cimon> and paradoxically if the highly foreign policy smart McCain gets selected, he will mostly concentrate on domestic policy, using his political connectins to forge a bipartisan coalition...
2008-02-15 22:06 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: ok
2008-02-15 22:06 < TheWeasel> if he survives his inauguration...
2008-02-15 22:07 < yao_ziyuan> looking at the name McCain,
2008-02-15 22:07 < yao_ziyuan> i recall Cain, which is "dog"
2008-02-15 22:07 < TheWeasel> Canis
2008-02-15 22:07 < yao_ziyuan> and Mc, which is prefix of "McWolf"...
2008-02-15 22:07 < yao_ziyuan> o
2008-02-15 22:07 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: Cain, in my head, refers more to the Biblical guy
2008-02-15 22:08 < Wikiacc> cimon: I doubt McCain could get elected against Hillary or Obama
2008-02-15 22:08 < TheWeasel> McCain is a Scottish name, it seems unlikely that it has a Hebrew source
2008-02-15 22:08 < TheWeasel> Against Hillary he stands a chance.
2008-02-15 22:08 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: it doesn't
2008-02-15 22:08 < TheWeasel> Many many many people hate Hillary
2008-02-15 22:08 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: well, true, most of the american population detests hillary
2008-02-15 22:09 < TheWeasel> and the number that would hold their nose and vote for Hillary is not getting bigger.
2008-02-15 22:09 < yao_ziyuan> mccain should liberate vietnam this time
2008-02-15 22:09 < TheWeasel> Vietnam is doing a fine job liberating itself.
2008-02-15 22:10 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: most conservatives I know say either they're not voting in the general election, or they'll hold their noses and vote for mccain
2008-02-15 22:10 < cimon> I think people not wanting a democratic house and prez is a factor. I don't know if McCain can pull a victory, but I think hte republican voters have judged accurately that he was the only one of the candidates who was in with a chance.
2008-02-15 22:10 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: it's becoming more American by the day
2008-02-15 22:10 < Wikiacc> cimon: not much of a chance, tough
2008-02-15 22:10 < Wikiacc> though*
2008-02-15 22:10 < TheWeasel> heh, but McCain doesn't get nearly as much hate from the right as Hillary gets from both the left and the right.
2008-02-15 22:10 * Wikiacc was a Ron Paul supporter from early on
2008-02-15 22:10 < Wikiacc> but he doesn't have the name recognition
2008-02-15 22:10 * FastLizard4|Food goes to eat an organic compound known as "food"
2008-02-15 22:11 < Mike2> http://img.waffleimages.com/7b1458c137c19610c4ec8396a43c7c2fea6b498a/balloons.jpg
2008-02-15 22:11 < Wikiacc> FastLizard4|Food: not necessarily an organic compound
2008-02-15 22:11 * TheWeasel thinks Ron Paul is half well-meaning and half raving oddball
2008-02-15 22:11 < Wikiacc> FastLizard4|Food: some of those things they serve up at fast-food restaurants don't contain any carbon whatsoever
2008-02-15 22:11 < FastLizard4|Food> Wikiacc: X-D
2008-02-15 22:11 < TheWeasel> I wouldn't let him near the presidency
2008-02-15 22:11 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: he's got good ideas, it's just he's not the best speaker
2008-02-15 22:12 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: if he could speak well, he would convey what he wants to say without sounding so crazy
2008-02-15 22:12 < TheWeasel> I don't judge people by their personality as much.
2008-02-15 22:12 < TheWeasel> His ideas deny 400 years of political and economic thought.
2008-02-15 22:12 < cimon> Wikiacc: I would give him one in five or perhaps one in six chance... it would basically require the democrats completely botching their nominating convention... not impossible, but not likely...
2008-02-15 22:12 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: personality shouldn't be a big role in the president
2008-02-15 22:12 < Wikiacc> cimon: true
2008-02-15 22:12 < TheWeasel> I agree.
2008-02-15 22:12 * yao_ziyuan goes to freedomhouse for vietnam scores
2008-02-15 22:13 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: they're westernizing quite well apparently
2008-02-15 22:13 < TheWeasel> cimon: Maybe some protestors being able to lay fire to the GOP convention
2008-02-15 22:13 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: out of curiosity, where are you located?
2008-02-15 22:13 < Wikiacc> your ip locates to "asia pacific network"
2008-02-15 22:13 < TheWeasel> Who, the Vietnamese?
2008-02-15 22:13 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: yes
2008-02-15 22:13 < yao_ziyuan> Wikiacc: i'm through a socks5 proxy
2008-02-15 22:14 < Wikiacc> yao_ziyuan: ok
2008-02-15 22:14 < TheWeasel> Yea, making good progress, now, if only the same would be true for their politics.
2008-02-15 22:14 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: they'll get there in time
2008-02-15 22:14 < TheWeasel> hah.
2008-02-15 22:14 < zvook> "one commentator has stated that your ideas deny 400 years of political and economic thought, your response?"
2008-02-15 22:14 < TheWeasel> not sure if South Vietnam would have been democratized, had it won the war
2008-02-15 22:15 < TheWeasel> I think it's mostly radicality that attracts people to Ron Paul
2008-02-15 22:15 < TheWeasel> He's not "same old"
2008-02-15 22:15 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: considering how much the US and CIA had been doing in the country, it's unlikely
2008-02-15 22:15 < TheWeasel> but same old has been working jolly well in many parts.
2008-02-15 22:15 < TheWeasel> yep
2008-02-15 22:16 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: well I was attracted to him because of his association with the Mises Institute
2008-02-15 22:16 < TheWeasel> and change is not an end in itself
2008-02-15 22:16 < TheWeasel> oh, I see.
2008-02-15 22:16 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: an organization I'm a member of
2008-02-15 22:16 * TheWeasel nods
2008-02-15 22:16 < cimon> what was the deal with McCains connection with the Keating Five scandal... his wikipedia article doesn't really go into the details...?
2008-02-15 22:17 < Wikiacc> cimon: Keating Five?
2008-02-15 22:18 < Wikiacc> the [[Keating Five]] article is painful
2008-02-15 22:18 < TroubleClef> I like Ron Paul because he's a good catalyst for political debates.
2008-02-15 22:18 < TheWeasel> I think while neoclassical economics have come back with Thatcherism and all, the hardcore free market economists have never been more than a vocal minority, attractive by their being different
2008-02-15 22:18 < TheWeasel> Insofar as leaving companies to their own devices is working horribly, that's not surprising.
2008-02-15 22:18 < TroubleClef> <Spammer> RON PAUL IN 2008 * Spammer has been kicked <Person> ron paul is a nut <Person> i mean, [reasoning] <Person2> no, ron paul is a nut because of [reasoning]
2008-02-15 22:19 < TroubleClef> [politics]
2008-02-15 22:19 < Wikiacc> TroubleClef: ...
2008-02-15 22:19 < arcimboldo_> #politics is full of Ron Paul supporter type people and xenophobics.
2008-02-15 22:19 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: well most of the problems with the so-called free markets is that they're not really free
2008-02-15 22:19 < arcimboldo_> I felt like Ed must be feeling on this channel.
2008-02-15 22:20 < TheWeasel> disturbingly, there seem to be a great many libertarians with racist-survivalist tendencies.
2008-02-15 22:20 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: well not a great many
2008-02-15 22:20 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: nuts tend to be attracted to libertarianism, but for all the wrong reasons
2008-02-15 22:20 < TheWeasel> Truly free markets invariably become unfree over time.
2008-02-15 22:20 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: how so
2008-02-15 22:21 < TheWeasel> that's why the EU rightfully intervenes in the market when laissez-faire leads to less competition.
2008-02-15 22:21 * arcimboldo_ remembers user Nockian
2008-02-15 22:21 < TheWeasel> Because cartels form.
2008-02-15 22:21 < TheWeasel> Always.
2008-02-15 22:21 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: not really
2008-02-15 22:21 < TheWeasel> competition is reduced to a minimum
2008-02-15 22:21 < TheWeasel> the buyer pays more
2008-02-15 22:22 < TheWeasel> In all cases I've had the great misfortune to see myself.
2008-02-15 22:22 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: but what's often ignored in such models is creative destruction
2008-02-15 22:22 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: plus the seen-unseen problem
2008-02-15 22:22 < TheWeasel> You can't let creative destruction run on the backs of people.
2008-02-15 22:22 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: and why not?
2008-02-15 22:22 < cimon> lol @ http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1083-6101.2008.00403.x?cookieSet=1
2008-02-15 22:22 < TheWeasel> boom-bust economies drive people from the market faster than the markets recover.
2008-02-15 22:23 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: but the boom-bust economies are caused by state money and credit policy
2008-02-15 22:23 < cimon> "These categories include linguistic topics ranging from "Linguistic morphology" to "Finnish profanity." While these categories are far from comprehensive, even at local levels (there are not categories for profanity in many languages, for example) they cover a broader range of subtopics than any printed encyclopedia could reasonably approach."
2008-02-15 22:23 < arcimboldo_> "An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie"
2008-02-15 22:23 < TheWeasel> you can't have complete breakdowns when necessities of daily life are concerned.
2008-02-15 22:23 < TheWeasel> whatever you call those periodic swings.
2008-02-15 22:24 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: the periodic swings wouldn't happen as we know them today without government policy
2008-02-15 22:24 < TheWeasel> Economy is not an end in itself, it serves people
2008-02-15 22:24 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: yeah, you'd have disruptions occasionally in certain sectors of the economy
2008-02-15 22:24 < TheWeasel> not only shareholders either
2008-02-15 22:24 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: but ultimately it's because of consumer demand shifts
2008-02-15 22:24 < TheWeasel> They are happening whenever the state removes its grubby paws, I've seen it.
2008-02-15 22:25 < TheWeasel> Whysoever.