freenode #wikipedia

2008-02-15 17:23 < NotACow> so he selects data that proves his conclusion
2008-02-15 17:23 < TheWeasel> Except that my predetermined outcome is the correct one.
2008-02-15 17:23 < Seddon69> NotACow - If checkusers are being turned down for the same reason he has a point
2008-02-15 17:23 < NotACow> Seddon69: checkuser is notoriously inaccurate
2008-02-15 17:24 < Wikiacc> NotACow: what exactly are the details of this RFAr
2008-02-15 17:24 < NotACow> Wikiacc: two editors are alleged to be the same person.
2008-02-15 17:24 < NotACow> Wikiacc: that's basically it.
2008-02-15 17:24 < Wikiacc> NotACow: sockpuppet allegations?
2008-02-15 17:24 < Wikiacc> NotACow: and where's the data that supposedly proves it
2008-02-15 17:24 < NotACow> Wikiacc: there is supposedly something about this that is bad, but i haven't figured out what.
2008-02-15 17:25 * NotACow thinks it's idiotic that wikipedia hasn't developed governance that is sock-resistant
2008-02-15 17:25 < Wikiacc> NotACow: well we do way too much voting, as opposed to consensus-making
2008-02-15 17:25 < Wikiacc> NotACow: that increases the incentives to sockpuppeteer a lot
2008-02-15 17:26 < NotACow> Wikiacc: wikipedians don't vote!
2008-02-15 17:26 < Lubaf> Where am I?
2008-02-15 17:26 < NotACow> Wikiacc: don't you pay attention?
2008-02-15 17:26 < Wikiacc> NotACow: ha, you make me laugh
2008-02-15 17:26 < Lubaf> In the village.
2008-02-15 17:26 < Lubaf> Who are you?
2008-02-15 17:26 < Lubaf> The new number two.
2008-02-15 17:26 * Wikiacc wonders what Lubaf is talking about
2008-02-15 17:26 < Lubaf> Who is number one?
2008-02-15 17:26 < Lubaf> That would be telling.
2008-02-15 17:27 < Lubaf> What do you want?
2008-02-15 17:27 < Wikiacc> hi Doc_glasgow
2008-02-15 17:27 < MessedRocker> Kelly martin is number 1
2008-02-15 17:27 < Lubaf> We want information... information... information...
2008-02-15 17:27 < Wikiacc> http://www.24hgold.com/interactive_chart.aspx?codecom=platinum&title=Platinum
2008-02-15 17:27 < Wikiacc> platinum prices
2008-02-15 17:27 < Lubaf> Wait, my mistake.
2008-02-15 17:27 * Cyrius is an irrational number
2008-02-15 17:27 * Wikiacc is an imaginary number
2008-02-15 17:27 < Lubaf> The answer to "Who is number one?" is "You are number six"
2008-02-15 17:28 * Wikiacc is 6.5+3i
2008-02-15 17:28 * TheWeasel is a transfinite number
2008-02-15 17:28 < MessedRocker> I am pi^3
2008-02-15 17:28 < TheWeasel> Make the pi higher.
2008-02-15 17:28 * Wikiacc is tan pi
2008-02-15 17:29 < Cyrius> what's tan pie made out of?
2008-02-15 17:29 < MessedRocker> dickie
2008-02-15 17:29 < Lubaf> Where am I? / In the village / What do you want? / Information / Which side are you on? / That would be telling / We want information / information / information...
2008-02-15 17:29 * Wikiacc is away
2008-02-15 17:29 < TheWeasel> Información, información!
2008-02-15 17:29 < Demi> {{toomanyboxes}}
2008-02-15 17:30 < Lubaf> You won't get it / By hook or by crook, we will / Who are you? / The new number two / Who is number one? / You are number six / I am not a number, I am a free man! / [Laughter]
2008-02-15 17:31 < MessedRocker> ha
2008-02-15 17:32 < Lubaf> It looks better as a poem, doesn't it?
2008-02-15 17:32 < missingno000> hey all
2008-02-15 17:32 < TheWeasel> I played with Morgan Freeman. You, sir, are no Morgan Freeman.
2008-02-15 17:40 < Sfan00> Me laughs evily
2008-02-15 17:40 < Sfan00> The copyvio links are going :)
2008-02-15 17:40 < Sfan00> <me laughe evily?
2008-02-15 17:41 < Sfan00> >
2008-02-15 17:41 < The359> ?
2008-02-15 17:41 < Sfan00> HOTU
2008-02-15 17:41 < Sfan00> (and others)
2008-02-15 17:42 < The359> you're confusing me even more
2008-02-15 17:42 < Sfan00> Most fo the you tube link removals I've mad have stayed removed :)
2008-02-15 17:42 * Therapist_Cat cuddles with The359
2008-02-15 17:42 < Sfan00> I am removing links to Home of The Underdogs from Video game articles
2008-02-15 17:43 < Sfan00> (Despite open dissent from some in Wikiproject:Videogames)
2008-02-15 17:44 < Sfan00> In the process I am also finding images without rationale :)
2008-02-15 17:44 * Wikiacc is back
2008-02-15 17:44 < Sfan00> and all manner of unpleasentness :)
2008-02-15 17:44 < Wikiacc> Sfan00: good, dig up as many of those as yo ucan find
2008-02-15 17:44 < Wikiacc> you can*
2008-02-15 17:44 < Wikiacc> each one wikipedia has is a potential copyright liability
2008-02-15 17:45 < Sfan00> I don't mass trawl
2008-02-15 17:45 < Sfan00> I tag em when I find em
2008-02-15 17:45 < Sfan00> :)
2008-02-15 17:45 < Therapist_Cat> WIKIACC!!
2008-02-15 17:45 * Therapist_Cat facehuggles
2008-02-15 17:45 < Wikiacc> wtf?
2008-02-15 17:45 < Sfan00> RE images.
2008-02-15 17:46 < Sfan00> I went on a mass trawl in 2007 and was unversilay pilloried for doing so :)
2008-02-15 17:47 < Wikiacc> Sfan00: trawl meaning you tagged all of them?
2008-02-15 17:47 < Wikiacc> Sfan00: I could understand people objecting with deletions, but not tags
2008-02-15 17:48 < Sfan00> I tagged all the ones that at that point had no rationale
2008-02-15 17:48 < Sfan00> And was lept on for talk page spamming :O
2008-02-15 17:48 < Sfan00> Seems I was erm 'eff-cient'</DREVIL>
2008-02-15 17:49 < Wikiacc> Sfan00: don't back down if you were doing everything right
2008-02-15 17:49 < Wikiacc> Sfan00: :-P
2008-02-15 17:49 < Sfan00> So I don't mass trawl with TWINKLE
2008-02-15 17:49 < Sfan00> In any case TWINKLE broke some pages in removing images/tagging
2008-02-15 17:50 < Wikiacc> Sfan00: ok, i could see problems over that
2008-02-15 17:51 < Sfan00> Also some people's talk pages break due to the sheer number of un-rationaled images they had uploaded ;)
2008-02-15 17:51 < Wikiacc> Sfan00: ah
2008-02-15 17:52 < Wikiacc> Sfan00: that's not a good thing, then
2008-02-15 17:53 < Ceiling_Cat> [[Sarah Lee Guthrie & Johnny Irion]] <-- the latest succesful photo submission
2008-02-15 17:53 < Ceiling_Cat> hopefully this will start getting out and agents will use it more :)
2008-02-15 17:58 < NotACow> DEATH TO CHICKENS
2008-02-15 17:58 < TheWeasel> Yea, damn clucking.
2008-02-15 18:00 < The359> damn tasting so good
2008-02-15 18:01 < Ceiling_Cat> did I tell you guys what my girlfriend gave me for valentine's day?
2008-02-15 18:01 < The359> girlfriend?
2008-02-15 18:01 < Ceiling_Cat> She gave me - I kid you not - a barnstar :)
2008-02-15 18:01 < The359> ...
2008-02-15 18:01 < The359> Have you met said girlfriend?
2008-02-15 18:01 < The359> in real life?
2008-02-15 18:01 < Ceiling_Cat> (She's taken to reading my talk page so she gets the joke)
2008-02-15 18:02 < Ceiling_Cat> The359 - Ha. Yes, I met her through a mutual friend about 6 years ago
2008-02-15 18:02 < Ceiling_Cat> we started dating about a year after that
2008-02-15 18:03 < Therapist_Cat> She knows I'm hardcore into wikipedia, so she actually reads my talk page and whatnot
2008-02-15 18:03 < Therapist_Cat> in fact, she's been to more wikipedia meetups than most (4)
2008-02-15 18:03 < Therapist_Cat> even though she doesn't edit
2008-02-15 18:03 < The359> Does she know you're hardcore into cats?
2008-02-15 18:03 < The359> or...wait
2008-02-15 18:03 < The359> Are you two fucking furries?
2008-02-15 18:03 * Therapist_Cat is not a furry
2008-02-15 18:03 < The359> you didn't deny it for her
2008-02-15 18:04 < Therapist_Cat> and - thankfully - she wouldn't know what one is if you asked her
2008-02-15 18:04 < Therapist_Cat> oh wait, she watches CSI
2008-02-15 18:04 < Therapist_Cat> so maybe she does
2008-02-15 18:04 < The359> it's been on MTV
2008-02-15 18:04 < The359> everyone knows what furries are
2008-02-15 18:04 < The359> god help us all
2008-02-15 18:05 < Therapist_Cat> The359 - http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/UnNews:God_Hates_Furries
2008-02-15 18:06 < Ceiling_Cat> (The359 - sidenote -- who watches MTV any more?)
2008-02-15 18:06 < The359> well their "True Life: I'm a furry" or whatever it was
2008-02-15 18:06 < The359> was a few years ago
2008-02-15 18:07 < Seddon69> a furry?
2008-02-15 18:07 < Therapist_Cat> to be fair - I've met one admitted furry in my life, and he was one of the nicest people I've met
2008-02-15 18:07 < Seddon69> what be a furry?
2008-02-15 18:07 < Therapist_Cat> ([[User:GreenReaper]])
2008-02-15 18:08 < Therapist_Cat> Seddon69 - See http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/WikiFur_Furry_Central/800x600
2008-02-15 18:08 < The359> People who enjoy dressing up as animals, either realistically or cartoonishly, Seddon
2008-02-15 18:08 < The359> A lot of them tend to like to have sex while dressed up in said costumes as well
2008-02-15 18:08 < Therapist_Cat> The359 is exagerrating somewhat. It's more of a....
2008-02-15 18:08 < Aqwis> better than having sex with actual animals in any case
2008-02-15 18:09 < The359> or they think they're animals
2008-02-15 18:09 < The359> or something
2008-02-15 18:09 < uberpenguin> furry is just a shrouded way of saying "likes bestiality but only when it involves cartoons"
2008-02-15 18:09 < Demi> the worst is when they dress up as animals, and then have sex with an animal, who is also dressed up as an animal.
2008-02-15 18:09 < Therapist_Cat> They don't think they are animals, per se. They are not dillusional. They associate themselves with animals
2008-02-15 18:09 < The359> lol Demi
2008-02-15 18:09 < The359> I think some of them are a bit dilusional, Therapist_Cat
2008-02-15 18:09 < uberpenguin> you're all dellusional
2008-02-15 18:09 < The359> not most, but a few probably are
2008-02-15 18:10 < Demi> furry is fetishism, though some of them will somehow deny it
2008-02-15 18:10 < uberpenguin> *delusional
2008-02-15 18:10 < Demi> they're about as believable as the people who say that cosplay is not fetishism
2008-02-15 18:10 < Ceiling_Cat> Furry fandom is a fandom distinguished by its enjoyment of anthropomorphic animal characters.[1] Examples of anthropomorphism in furry fandom include the attribution of human intelligence, facial expressions, anatomy, speech, bipedalism, and clothing to otherwise animal characters. Members of this subculture are sometimes known as furry fans, furries, or simply furs
2008-02-15 18:10 < pengo> what happened to that top 100 list of popular articles?
2008-02-15 18:11 < Ceiling_Cat> cosplay?
2008-02-15 18:11 * The359 just doesn't like people dressing up at all
2008-02-15 18:11 < Ceiling_Cat> oh
2008-02-15 18:11 < uberpenguin> Demi: eh, I correlate cosplay more with extreme fanboyism à la star wars nerds or trekkies
2008-02-15 18:11 < The359> The anime people, Ceiling_Cat
2008-02-15 18:11 < The359> who dress up and act out anime scenes and stuff
2008-02-15 18:11 < Ceiling_Cat> we have an article on [[Cosplay]]
2008-02-15 18:12 * The359 blames all of this on Star Trek nerds at conventions
2008-02-15 18:12 < Ceiling_Cat> [[Image:Wikipe-tan (Cosplay).jpg]]
2008-02-15 18:12 < Ceiling_Cat> ok, that's just... creepy
2008-02-15 18:12 < The359> they started this
2008-02-15 18:12 < The359> Dressing up
2008-02-15 18:12 < Ceiling_Cat> admittedly, she pulls off the costume well
2008-02-15 18:12 < The359> Then it was everybody in Sci-Fi
2008-02-15 18:12 < The359> Then it was the anime people
2008-02-15 18:12 < Demi> The359 - i blame the SCA and renaissance faires
2008-02-15 18:12 < The359> then they started doing it outside of conventions
2008-02-15 18:12 < The359> But at least they're doing something realistic, Demi
2008-02-15 18:13 < The359> not "OMG I'm Mr. Spock's love child!"
2008-02-15 18:13 * Furry_Cat facehuggles The359
2008-02-15 18:13 < The359> Furry cat? Isn't that a bit repetitive?
2008-02-15 18:13 < Ceiling_Cat> No -- [[Sphynx (cat)]]
2008-02-15 18:14 < Ceiling_Cat> see also: [[Image:2 Sphynx speeing.jpg]]
2008-02-15 18:14 < The359> whatev
2008-02-15 18:15 < pengo> how many hits a day does english wikipedia's main page get?
2008-02-15 18:15 * Lubaf facestabbles Furry_Cat.
2008-02-15 18:15 * Lubaf puts up his "Unprovoked displays of affection will be met with excessive violence" sign.
2008-02-15 18:16 < Lubaf> Anybody care to invoke it?
2008-02-15 18:16 * The359 molests Lubaf
2008-02-15 18:16 * Therapist_Cat cuddles with Lubaf
2008-02-15 18:16 < Lubaf> The359: "Molests" covers a lot of ground.
2008-02-15 18:16 * Therapist_Cat always like to cuddle after a "session"
2008-02-15 18:17 * Lubaf drops Therapist_Cat into a vat of hydrochloric acid.
2008-02-15 18:17 < Therapist_Cat> ZOMG! Cruelty to animals!
2008-02-15 18:17 < Therapist_Cat> One of the big three signs of a sociopath
2008-02-15 18:18 < Lubaf> Therapist_Cat: It's not cruelty to animals, if there's provocation.
2008-02-15 18:18 < Therapist_Cat> and cuddling is provocation?
2008-02-15 18:19 < Therapist_Cat> (Lubaf wasn't huggled enough as a youngster)
2008-02-15 18:19 < The359> yes it does Lubaf
2008-02-15 18:19 < The359> I like to start quickly
2008-02-15 18:19 < denis_o> completely mad request for help: does anybody here understand bulgarian?
2008-02-15 18:19 < NotACow> CRUELTY TO HYDROCHLORIC ACID
2008-02-15 18:20 < The359> Bulgarians have a language now?
2008-02-15 18:20 < Ceiling_Cat> The359 - lulz
2008-02-15 18:20 < denis_o> *snort*
2008-02-15 18:20 < Ceiling_Cat> Lubaf - http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/News:Further_Confusion_2008_breaks_fursuit_parade_record
2008-02-15 18:20 * Lubaf punts The359 into a pit of hydrofluoric acid.
2008-02-15 18:21 < Ceiling_Cat> While Further Confusion 2007 had 2062 attendees,[1] this year's event had 2311, a 12 percent increase.[2] The number of fursuiters in the parade increased by 100 to 387, breaking the record of 353 set at Anthrocon 2007.[3]
2008-02-15 18:21 < Sfan00> HOTU links cleaned OUT :)
2008-02-15 18:21 < Sfan00> :)
2008-02-15 18:21 < The359> what a fucking record
2008-02-15 18:21 < The359> lame
2008-02-15 18:21 < Sfan00> Now to start on You Tube ones :)
2008-02-15 18:22 < The359> Sfan00, I just killed a YouTube link in an article
2008-02-15 18:22 < The359> 1 less for you to do
2008-02-15 18:22 < Sfan00> MAybe in the morning :)
2008-02-15 18:22 < Sfan00> ;)
2008-02-15 18:23 < Sfan00> Anyway the HOTU links remaining are ones that have been left pending disscussion
2008-02-15 18:23 < The359> it was a "z0mg this driver died in an accident, it was a tragedy. HERE'S THE VIDEO!"
2008-02-15 18:23 < Sfan00> (abot whetehr to delink HOTU entirly)
2008-02-15 18:26 < Therapist_Cat> WAS IT A BLOGGING ACCIDENT?
2008-02-15 18:26 < The359> Racing
2008-02-15 18:26 < dhave_co> hi
2008-02-15 18:26 < Ceiling_Cat> Hi
2008-02-15 18:27 < Therapist_Cat> Hello dhave_co
2008-02-15 18:27 * Looooooong_Cat waves
2008-02-15 18:27 < dhave_co> hi therapist
2008-02-15 18:28 < dhave_co> i knew i sjouldve named myself dhave_cat ...
2008-02-15 18:29 * Furry_Cat nods
2008-02-15 18:30 < mavhc> Sfan00: and why do you want them to go again?
2008-02-15 18:34 < Sfan00> mavhc: WP:EL seems to say you shouldn't link to sites that infringe copyrights
2008-02-15 18:36 < mavhc> what about if you could argue fair use?
2008-02-15 18:37 < Sfan00> I left in obvious freeware ones :)
2008-02-15 18:38 < Sfan00> In a lot of cases, the HOTU linked articles also had a MobyGames link whcih was less controversial
2008-02-15 18:38 < dhave_co> what about requesting donations of blanket permissions to use certain material from sympathetic holders of copyright
2008-02-15 18:39 < Sfan00> Wouldn't work sadly
2008-02-15 18:39 < Sfan00> Besides I dont feel happy paying copyright blackmail
2008-02-15 18:40 < Sfan00> Rights holders should release stuff because they want to, not because they were bribed into doing so
2008-02-15 18:40 < mavhc> bribed by who?
2008-02-15 18:40 < Sfan00> I was answering dhave_co
2008-02-15 18:41 < dhave_co> how is asking for a donation a bribe
2008-02-15 18:41 < mavhc> when did he say pay?
2008-02-15 18:42 < Sfan00> OH :)
2008-02-15 18:42 < Sfan00> Sorry
2008-02-15 18:42 < Sfan00> :)
2008-02-15 18:42 * Sfan00 reminds himself to read stuff more carefully
2008-02-15 18:43 < Sfan00> dhave_co: Re software, I've left in some WoS game links because that site bothers to find rights holder and ask about the status of old games
2008-02-15 18:43 < Sfan00> It's a shame HOTU doesn't
2008-02-15 18:43 < Sfan00> :(
2008-02-15 18:44 < mavhc> if the rights holders cared they'd complain
2008-02-15 18:44 < Sfan00> Possibly
2008-02-15 18:46 < mavhc> what about a movement to obey old copyright laws that said there has to be a copyright line, and it only lasts for 20 years etc, but ignore new unfair versions of the law?
2008-02-15 18:51 < dhave_co> i think a movement like that would be mosst credible if it originated from a group that had no vested interest in changing the law, like a citizens lobby rather than something like wikipedia
2008-02-15 18:51 < Sfan00> 28 years BTW mavhc
2008-02-15 18:51 < Sfan00> And it was always 50/70 in the UK anyway
2008-02-15 18:52 < dhave_co> arguing, for example, that it would contribute to the goal of access to education
2008-02-15 18:52 < Sfan00> The shorter terms were a US thing
2008-02-15 18:52 < Sfan00> dhave_co: Yeah but you would really have to reign in MAFFIA power to do it
2008-02-15 18:52 < Sfan00> and probably have to agree to a MASSIVE extension of DRM
2008-02-15 18:53 < Sfan00> The point is if people actually respected copyrights, they wouldn't be needed ;(
2008-02-15 18:54 < dhave_co> but then again, the more strict copyright law, the more demand that is created for uncopyrighted material such as wikipedia or open source software provides
2008-02-15 18:54 < Sfan00> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ShakespeareFan00 Anyone able to comment on the proposal there
2008-02-15 18:54 < Sfan00> ?
2008-02-15 18:54 < ggreer> mavhc: 20 years is forever in software time
2008-02-15 18:55 < Sfan00> Well 20 years from now would just about see MSDOS in PD... :(
2008-02-15 18:56 < Sfan00> If it was 2o years
2008-02-15 18:56 < Sfan00> Pluas a raft of old Apple II titles
2008-02-15 18:56 < Sfan00> :(
2008-02-15 18:59 < mavhc> software is unique, it's copyrightable but does work
2008-02-15 19:07 * Mike_H NP: Dr. Hook - When You're in Love with a Beautiful Woman (1979)
2008-02-15 19:12 * TheWeasel has a sudden but intense craving for fries
2008-02-15 19:19 * quanticle wishes he had European internet...
2008-02-15 19:19 * quanticle is uploading a large dataset to a school machine and its going painfully slowly...
2008-02-15 19:19 < Demi> it's so much more cultured than the american internet
2008-02-15 19:20 < quanticle> Demi: Well, I don't know about that, but I'd certainly consider 10 megabit symmetrical pipes to be more cultured.
2008-02-15 19:25 < Mike2> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Velociraptor&diff=prev&oldid=185220508
2008-02-15 19:35 < quanticle> Mike2: Well, recent evidence does say that Velociraptors did have feathers...
2008-02-15 19:36 < missingno000> hey
2008-02-15 19:39 < NotACow> DEATH TO FEATHERS
2008-02-15 19:40 < quanticle> FEATHERS TO DEATH?
2008-02-15 19:40 < Sfan00> quanticle: You bring the tar....
2008-02-15 19:40 < Sfan00> I'll bring the feathers...
2008-02-15 19:40 < quanticle> Sfan00: Heh.
2008-02-15 19:40 < Sfan00> and together the copyvio links will be 'put outta town'
2008-02-15 19:40 < Sfan00> ;)
2008-02-15 19:40 * quanticle boils up some pitch...
2008-02-15 19:42 < Enterprise_Cat> I don't get one of the new pages in commons:Category:Lolcats
2008-02-15 19:42 < Enterprise_Cat> "You can haz popcorn. Popcorn, you can haz"
2008-02-15 19:45 < Ed_Poor> Right, you lot: I've been interviewed by "Truth in Numbers"
2008-02-15 19:46 < Ed_Poor> Oh, clamming up on me, are ya? /scoffs/ We'll see about that!
2008-02-15 19:48 < Gracenotes> any mollusk will do, Ed_Poor, not merely a clam
2008-02-15 19:48 < Enterprise_Cat> Ed_Poor: what are you even talking about?
2008-02-15 19:48 < Gracenotes> Enterprise_Cat: the documentary about Wikipedia entitled "Truth in Numbers"
2008-02-15 19:48 < Enterprise_Cat> Gracenotes: pro-wiki or anti-wiki?
2008-02-15 19:48 < Gracenotes> uh
2008-02-15 19:49 < Gracenotes> I dunno, NPOV?
2008-02-15 19:49 < Gracenotes> from what I've seen it has a general pro-wiki slant
2008-02-15 19:49 < Enterprise_Cat> good
2008-02-15 19:49 < Gracenotes> but it must contain segments on criticism
2008-02-15 19:49 < zvook> is it automatically assumed now that documentaries are POV? :)
2008-02-15 19:49 < Enterprise_Cat> zvook: All about Wikipedia, yes
2008-02-15 19:49 < Gracenotes> zvook: lol. no, a bit of a joke, if you will
2008-02-15 19:49 < Gracenotes> criticism is good. if it's constructive.
2008-02-15 19:49 < Ed_Poor> http://wikidocumentary.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
2008-02-15 19:50 < MessedRocker> yes gracenotes
2008-02-15 19:50 < Ed_Poor> My interview lasted 2.5 hours and was pronounced neutral in the end
2008-02-15 19:50 < quanticle> zvook: These days, yeah.
2008-02-15 19:50 < Gracenotes> criticism within a wiki is good, so long as you don't get labeled as a troll by people who have no idea what "troll" means other than a bad name to call someone
2008-02-15 19:50 < MessedRocker> people suck
2008-02-15 19:50 < quanticle> Gracenotes: These days, "troll" means "anyone I don't agree with strongly."
2008-02-15 19:50 < Ed_Poor> They feel online social networking can be a force for good, but I think they plan to give WP some long-overdue feedback
2008-02-15 19:51 < Gracenotes> quanticle: okay, thanks for the update
2008-02-15 19:51 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: The documentary?
2008-02-15 19:51 < MessedRocker> wikipedia has too many socially retarded
2008-02-15 19:51 < quanticle> Gracenotes: No problem.
2008-02-15 19:51 < Ed_Poor> Yes, quanticle - the documentary
2008-02-15 19:52 < Enterprise_Cat> MessedRocker: I suppose that was not directed at someone specifically
2008-02-15 19:52 < Gracenotes> MessedRocker: well, it's the internet. What to expect?
2008-02-15 19:52 < quanticle> MessedRocker: Are you suggesting that people who might find it fun to write (not just read) an encyclopedia might be socially inept? Shocking!
2008-02-15 19:53 < Ed_Poor> I feel the best way to expose the lunacy of an idea is to describe it so fairly that its proponents feel you're being sympathetic.
2008-02-15 19:53 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: What do you mean by that?
2008-02-15 19:53 < Ed_Poor> This is also a good strategy, in case it's not such a bad idea after all.
2008-02-15 19:54 < Gracenotes> Ed_Poor: why lunacy?
2008-02-15 19:54 * Ed_Poor is hoping to see better balance at wikipedia
2008-02-15 19:54 < DannyLilithborne> someone tell this guy Warbringer45 not to talk to me :\
2008-02-15 19:54 < quanticle> Gracenotes: I have no idea what Ed_Poor's talking about...
2008-02-15 19:54 < Ed_Poor> many strong proponents of a POV see their opponents as lunatics
2008-02-15 19:54 < quanticle> DannyLilithborne: You can use /ignore...
2008-02-15 19:54 < DannyLilithborne> quanticle: on wikipedia
2008-02-15 19:55 < Enterprise_Cat> DannyLilithborne: ANI if it's serious
2008-02-15 19:55 < DannyLilithborne> did that already
2008-02-15 19:55 < Ed_Poor> Am I in the wrong room? Perhaps neutrality issues belong on the mailing list.
2008-02-15 19:55 < Ed_Poor> I guess this channel is just for breaking news
2008-02-15 19:56 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: When two sides hold contradictory views equally vehemently, the truth is not automatically exactly in the middle. Sometimes one side is just wrong. <-- Richard Dawkins.
2008-02-15 19:56 < Gracenotes> Ed_Poor: no, it's fine, we're just a bit confused by the "I feel the [...] sympathetic" statement.
2008-02-15 19:56 < MessedRocker> screw the mauling list
2008-02-15 19:56 < Gracenotes> I am, anyway :|
2008-02-15 19:56 < TheWeasel> MessedRocker: Mauling list seems an appropriate term.
2008-02-15 19:56 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: In other words, sometimes your opponents are lunatics.
2008-02-15 19:57 < Ed_Poor> Imagine RD's surprise when he wakes up dead one morning and finds himself in the spirit world
2008-02-15 19:57 < NameAlreadyInUse> "President Bush was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002 [214] [215] and in 2004 [216] [217], although the nominations were viewed as having little chance of success."
2008-02-15 19:57 < Sfan00> qunaticle: Want to do some digging on IMDB and the BFI sites- databases? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ShakespeareFan00/Film_Directors
2008-02-15 19:57 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: Heh. All I can say is that it'll be awfully disappointing for the vast majority of people when they die and nothing happens.
2008-02-15 19:57 < Ed_Poor> No, quanticle, I wouldn't call them lunatics. I've seen some rather sane people who simply had made a colossal mistake.
2008-02-15 19:57 < Sfan00> Most appear to exist as article but there are a few that are red linked and probably shouldn't be
2008-02-15 19:57 < MessedRocker> peace priZe
2008-02-15 19:58 < zvook> imagine dawkins tries homeopathy and hence nevers dies
2008-02-15 19:58 < MessedRocker> he deserves the Nobel war prize
2008-02-15 19:58 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: The quotation for that is, "Never attribute to malice when incompetence will do..."
2008-02-15 19:58 < Ed_Poor> Anyway, I'd like to see WP get better at handling deep, intractable controversies.
2008-02-15 19:59 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: I can agree with that sentiment.
2008-02-15 19:59 < Ed_Poor> It's a matter of confidence. If you're sure you're right, there's no harm in "writing for the enemy".
2008-02-15 19:59 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: Like playing "devil's advocate?"
2008-02-15 19:59 * Ed_Poor finds it hard to "write for cornered rats"
2008-02-15 20:00 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: Write for cornered rats?
2008-02-15 20:00 * TheWeasel usually corrects bias that favors his own opinion
2008-02-15 20:00 < Ed_Poor> I can write about the opposing point of view when it comes to Marxian socialism, but that's when my "opponents" are young college students who know very little history
2008-02-15 20:00 < quanticle> TheWeasel: The ability to detect bias favoring your own opinion is an ability that all too many people lack.
2008-02-15 20:01 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: Heh. I'm a college student and my history major friend and I do the same.
2008-02-15 20:01 < NameAlreadyInUse> Ed_Poor: you have noticed this trend towards socialism among young people?
2008-02-15 20:01 < TheWeasel> I am embarrassed by bias on WP I agree with.
2008-02-15 20:01 < Ed_Poor> When dealing with proponents of the Global Warming Theory or the Theory of Evolution, there's too much (emotionally) at stake
2008-02-15 20:01 < zvook> TheWeasel: Exactly
2008-02-15 20:01 < quanticle> NameAlreadyInUse: There's always been a trend towards socialism in the young.
2008-02-15 20:01 < TheWeasel> So you are right on Marx? That sounds rather POV to me.
2008-02-15 20:02 < bibliomaniac15> As Bismarck said: "Anyone under 30 who was not a socialist has no heart; anyone over 30 who is a socialist has no brain."
2008-02-15 20:02 < Ed_Poor> Socialism: "What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine"
2008-02-15 20:02 < TheWeasel> Everyone should write about things they are not passionate about
2008-02-15 20:02 < quanticle> Be back in a bit
2008-02-15 20:02 < TheWeasel> I thought that was GB Shaw.
2008-02-15 20:02 < Ed_Poor> I'm so confident of being right on Marx that I don't get upset when people revert me
2008-02-15 20:02 < TheWeasel> If everyone does it, it's everyone's by definition.
2008-02-15 20:02 < bibliomaniac15> TheWeasel: I don't remember. Some 19th century dude
2008-02-15 20:02 < TheWeasel> Why not leave it there.
2008-02-15 20:03 < TheWeasel> Bismarck most certainly wasn't a socialist under 30.
2008-02-15 20:03 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-02-15 20:03 < zvook> he was heartless throughout then
2008-02-15 20:03 < Ed_Poor> My take on socialism is that it requires voluntary contributions - that is a religious, doctrinal perspective
2008-02-15 20:03 < bibliomaniac15> Church meets state?
2008-02-15 20:04 < TheWeasel> Every system is like that, free market worship most especially.
2008-02-15 20:04 < TheWeasel> well, ersatz church occasionally
2008-02-15 20:05 < Ed_Poor> How about no state at all?
2008-02-15 20:05 < Ed_Poor> Ideally, we could just all get along - if each one of us cared as much about his neighbor as he did himself.
2008-02-15 20:05 < bibliomaniac15> That would be Wikipedia, unless you're talking about anarchism (same thing really)
2008-02-15 20:05 < TheWeasel> Replaced by what though
2008-02-15 20:05 < TheWeasel> Wikipedia is all but anarchic.
2008-02-15 20:06 < TheWeasel> heh
2008-02-15 20:06 < TheWeasel> sorry
2008-02-15 20:06 < TheWeasel> far from anarchic
2008-02-15 20:06 < bibliomaniac15> Ed_Poor: Since when did things work "ideally"
2008-02-15 20:06 < Ed_Poor> Not in recent memory
2008-02-15 20:06 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: What is your opinion on Marx, btw?
2008-02-15 20:06 < Ed_Poor> Perhaps things will change for the better
2008-02-15 20:06 < TheWeasel> that is an understanding of socialism so straw-mannish that it's hard to discuss.
2008-02-15 20:07 < TheWeasel> Myself, I'm not much of a socialist, but that's hardly it
2008-02-15 20:07 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: Fundamental game theory problem with socialism: each person individually does better by screwing over his neighbor, even though society does better overall when everyone cooperates.
2008-02-15 20:07 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: Its called "tragedy of the commons", and the solution is property rights.
2008-02-15 20:08 < TheWeasel> Liberal democracies know that "common goods" are no ends in itself
2008-02-15 20:08 < TheWeasel> I think the reduction to property is invalid.
2008-02-15 20:08 < TheWeasel> there's more than property
2008-02-15 20:09 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Right, in the sense that there are some goods that cannot be chopped up into property. Infrastructure and education are good examples of this.
2008-02-15 20:10 < TheWeasel> because property in a civilized society cannot be used to the detriment of other people
2008-02-15 20:10 < cimon> can I get some sympathy here?
2008-02-15 20:10 < cimon> I am feeling sick as a parrot.
2008-02-15 20:10 * quanticle slaps cimon
2008-02-15 20:10 < TheWeasel> unless a society judges that an infringement is acceptable
2008-02-15 20:10 < quanticle> DEATH TO SYMPATHY
2008-02-15 20:10 < quanticle> ;P
2008-02-15 20:10 < r3m0t> so I haven't paid attention to WP for a while. what's the latest in vandalfighting?
2008-02-15 20:10 < TheWeasel> Individual liberties that are not property and limit property.
2008-02-15 20:10 < Mike_H> Nina Webster (formerly Chancellor, Kimble and McNeil) is a fictional character on the soap opera The Young and the Restless. Actress Tricia Cast played the role from 1986 to 2001.
2008-02-15 20:10 < Mike_H> :DD
2008-02-15 20:10 < quanticle> r3m0t: Huggle
2008-02-15 20:11 * Mike_H just sent off my first correspondence with Tricia Cast
2008-02-15 20:11 < TheWeasel> like the right not to be made sick by someone else's property
2008-02-15 20:11 < Mike_H> I asked her how much detail she heard about the interview we're doing
2008-02-15 20:11 < r3m0t> quanticle: thanks, but I'm not in the mood
2008-02-15 20:11 < quanticle> TheWeasel: You mean externalities?
2008-02-15 20:11 < bibliomaniac15> Where did they get the name "Huggle"?
2008-02-15 20:11 < quanticle> r3m0t: No, I mean Huggle, the vandalfighting tool
2008-02-15 20:11 < quanticle> r3m0t: Talk to gurch
2008-02-15 20:11 < r3m0t> quanticle: it were a pune
2008-02-15 20:11 < TheWeasel> of course socialism is not the solution, Rousseau said what you get is the best you can get.
2008-02-15 20:11 < TheWeasel> So there is no room for complaints
2008-02-15 20:12 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Liberal democracy is the worst solution, except for everything else?
2008-02-15 20:12 < TheWeasel> It's not a bad solution at all, I'm a big fan.
2008-02-15 20:12 < bibliomaniac15> Oh dear
2008-02-15 20:12 < quanticle> TheWeasel: It certainly has worked out rather nicely for the countries that have stuck by it.
2008-02-15 20:12 < TheWeasel> but I do think that saying "ownership is the only right that matters" is simplistic
2008-02-15 20:13 < TheWeasel> as many do
2008-02-15 20:13 < TheWeasel> it has, hasn't it.
2008-02-15 20:13 < NameAlreadyInUse> yes, it has
2008-02-15 20:14 < TheWeasel> I'm still a big fan of Marx' analysis, and I think just because we've exported the class struggle to the developing countries, it hasn't gone away.
2008-02-15 20:14 < r3m0t> huggle looks neat, I wonder if it likes lunix
2008-02-15 20:14 < TheWeasel> it's just not much of a problem here.
2008-02-15 20:15 < bibliomaniac15> r3m0t:Linux?
2008-02-15 20:15 < r3m0t> bibliomaniac15: lunix
2008-02-15 20:15 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Marxian analysis is spot on in may respects, but I wonder where his reasoning faculties went when he proposed his solutions.
2008-02-15 20:15 < bibliomaniac15> ???
2008-02-15 20:15 < r3m0t> yes, linux
2008-02-15 20:15 < TheWeasel> I agree.
2008-02-15 20:15 < quanticle> r3m0t: No. Huggle HATES linux
2008-02-15 20:15 < r3m0t> linux :D + wine :( = lunix :/
2008-02-15 20:15 < TheWeasel> And even worse that Lenin called himself a Marxist.
2008-02-15 20:16 < TheWeasel> And Stalin as a Marxist by Lenin's proxy
2008-02-15 20:16 < TheWeasel> it's pretty tragic
2008-02-15 20:16 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Well, I don't find that as offensive as Mao calling himself a Marxist.
2008-02-15 20:16 < bibliomaniac15> Backlog-fighting :( + wine :) = Drunken rouge fury
2008-02-15 20:16 < TheWeasel> True thing.
2008-02-15 20:16 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Or Pol Pot for that matter.
2008-02-15 20:16 < TheWeasel> yea, especially bizarre
2008-02-15 20:16 < cimon> I consider myself a proponent of minarchic monarchism...
2008-02-15 20:17 < cimon> monarchism is good for the economy in the long run
2008-02-15 20:17 < TheWeasel> You want a figurehead of a king and for the rest anything goes?
2008-02-15 20:17 < TheWeasel> cimon: Brings tourists?
2008-02-15 20:17 < quanticle> r3m0t: Well, you could try running Huggle under Wine, but I don't know how well it'd work. I think you'd also need to install IE and the .NET framework under Wine as well.
2008-02-15 20:17 < TheWeasel> and keeps the papers abuzz?
2008-02-15 20:17 < r3m0t> sucksitude
2008-02-15 20:17 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: msg
2008-02-15 20:17 < cimon> TheWeasel: royals usually can't redistribute so much pork...
2008-02-15 20:17 < r3m0t> I will just e-mail the author about colourblindness
2008-02-15 20:18 < quanticle> cimon: How so? Strict monarchies have had a historical tendency towards mercantilism.
2008-02-15 20:18 < Lubaf> Happy fun trivia: The place where the most people die from alligator attacks? Golf courses.
2008-02-15 20:18 < quanticle> Lubaf: How's that work?
2008-02-15 20:18 < TheWeasel> He wants a minarchist monarchy.
2008-02-15 20:18 < Golbez> the best of all possible governments would be a benevolent dictatorship
2008-02-15 20:19 < quanticle> Lubaf: Is this a "only in Florida" thing?
2008-02-15 20:19 < Lubaf> quanticle: Water traps, basically.
2008-02-15 20:19 < bibliomaniac15> People falling into water traps and getting devoured?
2008-02-15 20:19 < quanticle> Golbez: The problem with that is that benevolent dicators don't often remain benevolent.
2008-02-15 20:19 < Lubaf> quanticle: Or Louisiana.
2008-02-15 20:19 < cimon> quanticle, that is purely a historical accident, has to do with the era where monarchies had their heyday, being ocincidentally one of mercantilism...
2008-02-15 20:19 < TheWeasel> Dictatorships are structurally inefficient.
2008-02-15 20:19 < Lycurgus> class struggle is ubiquitous. It is actually the shaprpest in the countries with the most advanced division of labor.
2008-02-15 20:19 < Golbez> unfortunately it is impossible.
2008-02-15 20:19 < bibliomaniac15> Not if you're omniscient and omnipotent
2008-02-15 20:20 < arcimboldo_> Any good examples of a benevolent dictatorship? (post-19th century)?
2008-02-15 20:20 < quanticle> Lycurgus: How's that? The US has a pretty sharp division of labor (2% feed the other 98%), and the class struggle here isn't especially violent.
2008-02-15 20:20 < cimon> TheWeasel: well, monarchies are limited to certain sizes naturally, empires can't hold together, but that is a feature, not a bug.
2008-02-15 20:20 < bibliomaniac15> The second coming
2008-02-15 20:20 < TheWeasel> The best is a liberal democracy with working domestic checks done by people of good will
2008-02-15 20:20 < cimon> arcimboldo_: Jordan?
2008-02-15 20:20 < Lycurgus> well, actually practically immortal will do. bbiab.
2008-02-15 20:20 < Golbez1> TheWeasel - only if you're talking about economic ones. the best of all governments would be a benevolent dictatorship who exuded no influence over the economy, and merely handled matters of criminal justice. but again, short of a deity taking power, this is not going to happen.
2008-02-15 20:20 < Golbez1> ugh my connection sucks
2008-02-15 20:20 < Golbez1> and i have to go
2008-02-15 20:21 < arcimboldo_> cimon: Maybe some Arab states
2008-02-15 20:21 < bibliomaniac15> See you
2008-02-15 20:21 < Golbez1> Lycurgus- the God Emperor of Dune!
2008-02-15 20:21 * TheWeasel disagrees most strongly
2008-02-15 20:21 < TheWeasel> but that's a European thing
2008-02-15 20:21 < Golbez1> that's a good view of a benevolent (in the long run) dictator
2008-02-15 20:21 < cremepuff222> Hi bibliomaniac15.
2008-02-15 20:21 < cremepuff222> I don't think we've ever talked on IRC.
2008-02-15 20:21 < bibliomaniac15> What's up?
2008-02-15 20:21 < TheWeasel> Pinochet did that
2008-02-15 20:21 < Golbez1> unfortunately we have no gigantic sandworms to make our leader
2008-02-15 20:21 < Golbez1> so
2008-02-15 20:21 < TheWeasel> thats why everyone loved Pinochet.
2008-02-15 20:21 < cremepuff222> Nothing much. :-)
2008-02-15 20:21 < Golbez1> :(
2008-02-15 20:21 < cremepuff222> You should come to my channel, bibliomaniac15.
2008-02-15 20:22 < TheWeasel> he "handled matters of criminal justice" alright
2008-02-15 20:22 < cimon> lubaf: I feel like a halfling who has drunk four potions of weakness...
2008-02-15 20:22 < Golbez1> TheWeasel- BENEVOLENTLY!
2008-02-15 20:22 < Lubaf> cimon: What's wrong now?
2008-02-15 20:22 < bibliomaniac15> Is it freenode accessible?
2008-02-15 20:22 < Golbez1> Which Pinochet did not. =p
2008-02-15 20:22 < Lubaf> You getting your ass handed to you again?
2008-02-15 20:22 < TheWeasel> But to what end
2008-02-15 20:22 < cimon> lubaf: head cold and fever flashes
2008-02-15 20:22 < arcimboldo_> Well, Fujimori did indeed eliminate the Sendero Luminoso ...
2008-02-15 20:23 < cimon> just basically sucks to be me
2008-02-15 20:23 * brown_cat cuddles MessedRocker
2008-02-15 20:23 < quanticle> I love it when conversational threads intersect:
2008-02-15 20:23 < quanticle> 19:21 < Golbez1> unfortunately we have no gigantic sandworms to make our leader
2008-02-15 20:23 < arcimboldo_> And Putin has stabilized Russia ...
2008-02-15 20:23 < quanticle> 19:21 < Golbez1> so
2008-02-15 20:23 < quanticle> 19:21 < TheWeasel> thats why everyone loved Pinochet.
2008-02-15 20:23 < TheWeasel> Democracy is a condition sine qua non for modern due process and civil liberties.
2008-02-15 20:23 < TheWeasel> heh
2008-02-15 20:24 < cimon> wow, even coffee tastes weird with a head cold...
2008-02-15 20:24 * Mike_H has deemed his drag name to be Meta Mucil
2008-02-15 20:24 < cremepuff222> bibliomaniac15, yeah, it's ##cremepuff222
2008-02-15 20:24 < TheWeasel> if you're judged by God or in the name of God instead of your peers, there's no real reason to even start
2008-02-15 20:25 * brown_cat judges TheWeasel
2008-02-15 20:26 < arcimboldo_> I guess a working democracy needs to have a good economic foundation.
2008-02-15 20:26 < bibliomaniac15> cremepuff222:Maybe I'll come over some time
2008-02-15 20:26 < arcimboldo_> And a cultural base.
2008-02-15 20:26 < arcimboldo_> I don't see how democracy in Africa will work as well as in the West for the next 20-30 years.
2008-02-15 20:26 < TheWeasel> yea, exterior reasons for lack of stability are unfair as arguments against a system
2008-02-15 20:27 < TheWeasel> :-)
2008-02-15 20:27 < TheWeasel> nearly all dictatorships of the last century I'm aware of where bureaucratic fucking nightmares though.
2008-02-15 20:27 < Ed_Poor> Marx was idealistic, but was mistaken on a few points.
2008-02-15 20:27 < arcimboldo_> India has managed as so-so democratic system though despite a rather poor economy.
2008-02-15 20:28 < TheWeasel> Yea, it's slowly un-bureaucratizing
2008-02-15 20:28 < Ed_Poor> What defines a good economy?
2008-02-15 20:28 < TheWeasel> it used to be massive
2008-02-15 20:28 < TheWeasel> low unemployment, high income
2008-02-15 20:28 < Ed_Poor> socialism ought to be the best, based on theory and/or intent
2008-02-15 20:28 < TheWeasel> good currency stability
2008-02-15 20:28 < Ed_Poor> Yet history's highest standard of living is in the "young" USA
2008-02-15 20:28 < arcimboldo_> Any system ought to be the best according to its proponents ...
2008-02-15 20:29 < TheWeasel> That's an unverifiable claim.
2008-02-15 20:29 < Ed_Poor> How can we write neutrally about the performance of socialist vs. free market economics?
2008-02-15 20:29 * TheWeasel is fairly postmodern and undogmatic in economics
2008-02-15 20:29 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: Well, mistaken in the sense that he still felt that large numbers of people could act in an altruistic manner...
2008-02-15 20:29 < TheWeasel> I'm just seeing that parts of capitalism don't work, as does most of state socialism
2008-02-15 20:29 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: I'm not sure about that - if you talk about the lower 50%, they probably have a clearly lower standard than in most other developed countries.
2008-02-15 20:29 < Ed_Poor> Can we take a source which makes a claim, at face value?
2008-02-15 20:30 < quanticle> arcimboldo_: India is a democracy, for some value of democratic.
2008-02-15 20:30 < Ed_Poor> Based on what? Can you point me to a WP article on that, arcimboldo?
2008-02-15 20:30 < TheWeasel> India still struggles with its human rights record, but it's at least trying
2008-02-15 20:30 < quanticle> arcimboldo_: Actually, India is a democracy now. Before, during the height of Indira Gandhi's power, it was on the edge.
2008-02-15 20:30 < Golbez1> quanticle lol
2008-02-15 20:30 < Golbez1> thanks for that
2008-02-15 20:31 < quanticle> Golbez1: What?
2008-02-15 20:31 < Golbez1> The sand worm/Pinochet bit. =p
2008-02-15 20:31 < Ed_Poor> Where can I find statistics on the standard of living of the lower 50% in developed countries?
2008-02-15 20:31 < quanticle> Golbez1: Heh. No problem
2008-02-15 20:31 < Ed_Poor> And is there any correlation betwen "developed" and "free market"?
2008-02-15 20:31 < TheWeasel> Any democracy has its weak moments, I guess.
2008-02-15 20:31 < TheWeasel> but it's not inherent in the system
2008-02-15 20:31 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: Some erratic google hits: http://www.soundvision.com/Info/poor/statistics.asp
2008-02-15 20:31 < Ed_Poor> In which developing nations has socialism helped lower unemployment or increase income?
2008-02-15 20:32 * Ed_Poor toddles off to do his assigned reading
2008-02-15 20:32 < arcimboldo_> Ah, actually we have an article [[Poverty in the United States]]
2008-02-15 20:32 < TheWeasel> Some single measures of socialism certainly help with education, healthcare, poverty and such.
2008-02-15 20:33 < TheWeasel> if you mean socialism as taught by Lenin, which has little to do with Marx, then a) yes but at a cost and b) no
2008-02-15 20:33 < Ed_Poor> When we say "living below the poverty line" is that considering government assistance - or not?
2008-02-15 20:33 < arcimboldo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Human_Poverty_Index
2008-02-15 20:34 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: I don't see why developed implies free market, but I can't find any counterexamples to that implication.
2008-02-15 20:34 < TheWeasel> Well, government assistance isn't supposed to raise you over any large borderline
2008-02-15 20:34 < TheWeasel> Depends on what one means by "free market"
2008-02-15 20:34 < Ed_Poor> I think I helped write PitUS, but we had problems on defining "poverty level"
2008-02-15 20:34 < TheWeasel> Free markets are not necessarily incompatible with socialist measures
2008-02-15 20:34 < cimon> blah, Finnish wikipedia is getting down with deletionism...
2008-02-15 20:34 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: I don't think government assistance figures in calculations of poverty, since the entire point of such assistance is to lift people out of poverty.
2008-02-15 20:34 < Ed_Poor> No one could agree if income + benefits was the determing factor, or just income
2008-02-15 20:35 < cimon> Now they want to delete the list of Ferengi rules of acquisition on the Finnish wikipedia...
2008-02-15 20:36 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: See my link above.
2008-02-15 20:36 < arcimboldo_> "The actual Orchinsky poverty line for single person households in the US ($9645 in 2004) is very comparable to the relative poverty line in many Western-European countries (Belgium 2004: €9315), while price levels are also similar."
2008-02-15 20:36 < arcimboldo_> And based on that, the US has the highest poverty rates.
2008-02-15 20:36 < cimon> Ed_Poor: how do you rate the Ferengi on a political scale? the ultimate laissez-faire?
2008-02-15 20:37 * brown_cat throws some snow at TheWeasel
2008-02-15 20:37 * TheWeasel is white
2008-02-15 20:37 < Ed_Poor> arcimboldo, am I correct is assuming that by poverty rate you mean earned income - and that you are excluding charity and government benefits?
2008-02-15 20:37 < Ed_Poor> *in
2008-02-15 20:37 < quanticle> arcimboldo_: Hmmm, I don't think that's a good measure of poverty, then. Surely the US, while having more poverty than say, Western Europe, isn't the highest in terms of poverty rates.
2008-02-15 20:37 * quanticle throws a snowball at brown_cat
2008-02-15 20:38 < quanticle> snowball fight!
2008-02-15 20:38 < Ed_Poor> You said: I don't think government assistance figures in calculations of poverty, since the entire point of such assistance is to lift people out of poverty.
2008-02-15 20:38 * brown_cat throws snow at quanticle
2008-02-15 20:38 * brown_cat uses the snow as a shooting target
2008-02-15 20:38 < Ed_Poor> But the site you asked me to read speaks plaintively of children going to bed without food.
2008-02-15 20:38 < quanticle> Ed_Poor: Who are you talking to?
2008-02-15 20:38 * quanticle dodges
2008-02-15 20:39 < arcimboldo_> quanticle: Based on the table, US has 17% below the threshold while the other countries have less
2008-02-15 20:39 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: Actually, I now meant the table in the Wikipedia article
2008-02-15 20:39 < Ed_Poor> arcimboldo, we need to clarify our terms: by "poor" do we mean that their pre-assistance income is below 10,000 USD?
2008-02-15 20:39 < arcimboldo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Human_Poverty_Index
2008-02-15 20:40 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: there are many definitions. I guess the WP article gives a good summary.
2008-02-15 20:40 < TheWeasel> 10,000 a year?
2008-02-15 20:40 < Ed_Poor> or that their income, combined with the cash value of welfare benefits, is below that level. I have (quickly) skimmed through the WP article.
2008-02-15 20:40 < TheWeasel> whoa
2008-02-15 20:40 < quanticle> arcimboldo_: Right, but I'd think that, well, most anywhere in the "third world" would have more poverty than the US. I find it hard to believe, on an intuitive level, that the US has more poverty than the Sahel countries, for example.
2008-02-15 20:40 * Ed_Poor does not recall seeing a clear answer to the income vs. income + benefits question in the article arcimboldo cited
2008-02-15 20:41 < arcimboldo_> quanticle: That's for sure. I was talking about poverty within the developed countries.
2008-02-15 20:41 < arcimboldo_> Ed_Poor: I am assuming that state welfare benefit payments would be included in that math.
2008-02-15 20:41 < quanticle> arcimboldo_: Oh. In that case, then you're probably correct. The US has higher levels of income inequality than most any other developed country.
2008-02-15 20:42 < arcimboldo_> quanticle: That's the thing. In particular the economic boom under Bush has only had an effect on the highest 5%.
2008-02-15 20:42 < Ed_Poor> That's an interesting assumption, but with billions of dollars in gov't money at stake, WP would not be a good resource for bureacrats and legislators if it assumed
2008-02-15 20:42 < arcimboldo_> Which means that for 95% of the population the tax cuts etc. have had no impact at all.
2008-02-15 20:42 < Ed_Poor> ASS + U + ME = assume
2008-02-15 20:43 < TroubleClef> I knew someone who used to say "When you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME" all the time.
2008-02-15 20:43 < TroubleClef> It bugged everyone.
2008-02-15 20:44 < quanticle> arcimboldo_: Right. This is why, despite the fact that the economy has been good for the past 2 or 3 years, national sentiment has not appreciably improved. This tide has not caused all boats to rise.
2008-02-15 20:45 * Ed_Poor notes that instead of answering my question, arcimboldo changed the topic to "causes of economic problems"