freenode #wikipedia

2008-02-15 13:11 < TheWeasel> as the old general Schlieffen said "Make the right wing strong for me!"
2008-02-15 13:12 < TheWeasel> It's not good to allow a pawn promotion at Cherbourg though.
2008-02-15 13:12 < TheWeasel> (well, first a passed pawn
2008-02-15 13:13 < TheWeasel> and then a counterattack against the pawn chain at Normandy
2008-02-15 13:15 < Demi> well, in this variant, it's not enough to just win, you have to win before black dumps all his undesirable pieces off the back of the board
2008-02-15 13:16 < TheWeasel> the building of trenches is strongly discouraged.
2008-02-15 13:17 < TheWeasel> brb
2008-02-15 13:17 < NotACow> noxious vapors are right out
2008-02-15 13:17 < TheWeasel> heh
2008-02-15 13:17 < Demi> well, it worked well enough before they changed the rules so the queen could move all over the board
2008-02-15 13:17 < TheWeasel> there was psychological warfare by cigar smoke in the old days
2008-02-15 13:18 < MessedRocker> NotAMartin
2008-02-15 13:18 < TheWeasel> ie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Nimzowitsch#Personality
2008-02-15 13:19 < TheWeasel> A vehement non-smoker, Nimzowitsch was annoyed by heavy smoking opponents. On one occasion, after his opponent, Milan Vidmar had laid a cigar on the table, he complained to the tournament arbiters: "He is threatening to smoke."
2008-02-15 13:19 < Demi> nice
2008-02-15 13:19 < bumm13> I hate smoke as wel
2008-02-15 13:19 < TheWeasel> so there was gas warfare
2008-02-15 13:19 < bumm13> *well
2008-02-15 13:25 < TheWeasel> Gee, seven-thirty already
2008-02-15 13:25 < TheWeasel> I'll have to
2008-02-15 13:26 < TheWeasel> oh, it's open till nine
2008-02-15 13:26 < TheWeasel> either way, I better get ready
2008-02-15 13:27 < MessedRocker> j'ai retourne
2008-02-15 13:31 < TheWeasel> suis?
2008-02-15 13:31 < TheWeasel> I dunno.
2008-02-15 13:32 < MessedRocker> past tense...
2008-02-15 13:32 < TheWeasel> it's passé composé
2008-02-15 13:33 < TheWeasel> I just don't know whether the auxiliary verb would be "être" rather than "avoir"
2008-02-15 13:34 < TheWeasel> one'd maybe say "je suis de retour" anyway
2008-02-15 13:34 < TheWeasel> I dunno
2008-02-15 13:35 < Lubaf> "Bird" is the word.
2008-02-15 13:35 < Lubaf> Bird bird bird.
2008-02-15 13:35 < NotACow> DEATH TO BIRDS
2008-02-15 13:35 < Lubaf> "Bird" is the word.
2008-02-15 13:36 < Lubaf> NotACow: Well, everybody's heard about the bird.
2008-02-15 13:36 < TheWeasel> Pour faire le portrait d'une oiseau
2008-02-15 13:36 < TheWeasel> Peindre d'abord une cage avec une porte ouverte
2008-02-15 13:36 < TheWeasel> Peindre puis quelque chose de simple
2008-02-15 13:36 < TheWeasel> quelque chose de jolie
2008-02-15 13:37 < TheWeasel> quelque chose d'utile pour l'oiseau
2008-02-15 13:37 < TheWeasel> I forgot how it continues
2008-02-15 13:38 < NotACow> Lubaf: birds are best served cold
2008-02-15 13:39 < TheWeasel> Notre pêre qui êtes aux cieux...
2008-02-15 13:39 < TheWeasel> Restez-y.
2008-02-15 13:39 < Lubaf> TheWeasel: How do you say "Bird is the word" in french?
2008-02-15 13:40 < Lubaf> And how about "Everybody knows that the bird is the word"?
2008-02-15 13:40 < TheWeasel> "Oiseau, voilà le mot"?
2008-02-15 13:40 < Lubaf> Om mow mow poppa om mow ma mow...
2008-02-15 13:42 < TheWeasel> "il est bien connu que le mot que l'on cherche, c'est "oiseau"?
2008-02-15 13:42 < TheWeasel> haha
2008-02-15 13:42 < TheWeasel> French is a stodgy language
2008-02-15 13:42 < TheWeasel> and I don't speak it well
2008-02-15 13:42 < Lubaf> TheWeasel: Could be worse. Could be Wapanese.
2008-02-15 13:43 < TheWeasel> Ssoitainly.
2008-02-15 13:43 < Lubaf> Not Japanese, Wapanese.
2008-02-15 13:43 < TheWeasel> LA MORT AU FRANCAIS!
2008-02-15 13:44 < TheWeasel> Note that I neither said nor meant "aux Francais"
2008-02-15 13:44 < Lubaf> It's what you get when somebody uses Japanese words in English at random.
2008-02-15 13:45 < TheWeasel> heh, probably happens among leet comic fans
2008-02-15 13:45 < TheWeasel> whoa
2008-02-15 13:46 < TheWeasel> brb
2008-02-15 13:48 < Demi> when leet comic fans intersperse japanese words into their speech, the result is "manganese"
2008-02-15 13:48 < bumm13> heh
2008-02-15 13:54 < missingno000> hello
2008-02-15 13:54 < TheWeasel> Uh... secret CIA agents that are after me? I wanted to say I'm now leaving the house so you might want to get a subway ticket.
2008-02-15 13:54 < TheWeasel> Bbl.
2008-02-15 13:54 < missingno000> hi CardinalNumber
2008-02-15 13:56 < missingno000> hello
2008-02-15 14:04 < Mrdini> heya folks
2008-02-15 14:05 < Mrdini> what is the policy on linking to youtube links? (wondering as I linked a fairly obscure article to a youtube video & it got removed)
2008-02-15 14:06 < Mrdini> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bian_Lian&curid=6194610&diff=191119270&oldid=182890323 <--- this
2008-02-15 14:07 < mavhc> the copyright status is often considered by some
2008-02-15 14:08 < Mrdini> mavhc, *nods* reading
2008-02-15 14:09 < Mrdini> (it would be a shame to let that link be removed IMHO, as it's a rather obscure toopic/video)
2008-02-15 14:10 < mavhc> perhaps the argument used for copyrighted photos could be used
2008-02-15 14:10 < mavhc> "noone else can take a free version of this photo, because it's an event in the past perhaps"
2008-02-15 14:11 < Mrdini> hmmm.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking_to_copyrighted_works
2008-02-15 14:11 < Mrdini> "It is not necessary to obtain the permission of a copyright holder before linking to copyrighted material,"
2008-02-15 14:11 < gwern> http://pic.blog.plover.com/math/Acta-Quandalia/ActaQuandalia.png <-- a fearsome copyright warninig
2008-02-15 14:12 < Mrdini> gwern, hah
2008-02-15 14:14 < mavhc> I'd say "link to the official version if that exists, otherwise link to the illegal version", it's the job of the copyright holder to remove it, noone else actually can, if they don't we assume they don't care
2008-02-15 14:15 < Mrdini> mavhc, hmm- thing is it's a performance so it would be difficult to link to the ""official version"
2008-02-15 14:17 < mavhc> in a living document version of wp I say link to whatever, if it's taken down the link gets fixed. Of course a printed/cd version would be different, but that's never going to exist anyway
2008-02-15 14:19 < Mrdini> yeah - reverted his edit
2008-02-15 14:20 < Mrdini> I wouldn't mind if someone found a "usable" video for that article, but it seems such a shame to remove that youtube link, & leave nothing in its place
2008-02-15 14:20 < Demi> the issue is that, to judge the "copyright status" of some *other* website's content, is to put us in a position to judge things like fair use and permission systems for someone else.
2008-02-15 14:21 < Demi> it puts us in the position of policing the copyright status of youtube's content, which isn't the same thing at all as our copyright policies
2008-02-15 14:21 < Mrdini> good point
2008-02-15 14:21 < Demi> Mrdini - Sfan00 is frequently on this channel, by the way
2008-02-15 14:22 < Mrdini> Demi, ah ok - gonna be afk soon for a couple of hours or so though
2008-02-15 14:22 < Mrdini> !seen sfan00
2008-02-15 14:26 < mavhc> he hates youtube links for some reason, not quite worked out why
2008-02-15 14:26 < Mrdini> mavhc, I saw his talk page :)
2008-02-15 14:26 < Bennity> Any Brits here who have a Wii and have registered it and Wii Sports on the Nintendo Club Website Stars whatnot thing?
2008-02-15 14:27 < Demi> he's been doing the same kind of campaign on other topics
2008-02-15 14:27 < Mrdini> I don't mind if he removes it, but at least, make some effort to find a replacement IMHO
2008-02-15 14:27 < zvook> mavhc, i think you're way more liberal than other editors who have looked at this topic
2008-02-15 14:27 < Demi> he feels a moral imperative to campaign against intellectual property piracy
2008-02-15 14:27 < mavhc> he is irc's most moral person
2008-02-15 14:27 < zvook> we currently have bots removing links to blogspot and youtube on "sight" if they come from new editors
2008-02-15 14:28 < zvook> on the assumption that they are PROBABLY bad
2008-02-15 14:28 < mavhc> that will discourage new editors
2008-02-15 14:28 < zvook> it will
2008-02-15 14:28 < Demi> essentially everything that people propose to solve wikipedia's problems boil down to discourage new editors
2008-02-15 14:28 < Mrdini> Demi, that's fine, and I agree in principle - but please, just find a replacement 'usable' video first :)
2008-02-15 14:29 < Demi> most wikipedia editors don't actually want to deal with what a stream of new editors implies
2008-02-15 14:29 < zvook> demi: i often wonder exactly what project editors like that thought they were joining ;)
2008-02-15 14:30 < Demi> Mrdini - there are certain paranoias that prevent wikipedians from making rational decisions, and copyright paranoia is one of them
2008-02-15 14:30 < Mesousa> Nice number of nicks, 3^5
2008-02-15 14:30 < zvook> i think it's reasonable to not link to blatant copyvios.
2008-02-15 14:48 < Mahlzahn__> dinger of a blatant copyvio with "released under GNU" tag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Atropatene_map.jpg
2008-02-15 14:50 < Mahlzahn__> "(c) 1994 Encyclopaedia Brittanica, Inc."
2008-02-15 14:50 < Cyrius> oh geez
2008-02-15 14:50 < Golbez> thanks
2008-02-15 14:50 < Golbez> deleted
2008-02-15 14:50 < Demi> i just used google's street view to find a hotel i think i remembered, that's pretty cool
2008-02-15 14:52 < Golbez> and then we have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caucasian_Lands_200BC.jpg
2008-02-15 14:52 < Golbez> which is a derivative of a map of a fan of wikipedia but nonetheless states (c)
2008-02-15 14:52 < Golbez> oh wait nm
2008-02-15 14:53 < Cyrius> it's cc-by =)
2008-02-15 14:53 < Golbez> the creator of the original is a commons user who has uploaded the original map under the GFDL
2008-02-15 14:54 < Cyrius> [[Image:Azeri.Language.png]]
2008-02-15 14:54 < Cyrius> should probably be nuked
2008-02-15 14:55 < Golbez> can't find any evidence it's a copyvio though
2008-02-15 14:55 < Golbez> cy i deleted your notice
2008-02-15 14:55 < Golbez> since i already had one there. =p
2008-02-15 14:55 < Cyrius> so did I!
2008-02-15 14:55 < Golbez> :O
2008-02-15 14:56 < Golbez> and Image:Azeri.Language.png is so low quality (not speaking to its worthiness, but just that it lacks sophisticated graphics) that it could indeed be handmade
2008-02-15 14:56 < Mahlzahn__> indeed
2008-02-15 14:56 < Golbez> so there's no way of knowing, without finding it on another site, if it's a copyvio
2008-02-15 14:56 < Cyrius> it's a duplicate image =)
2008-02-15 14:56 < Golbez> of what?
2008-02-15 14:57 < Cyrius> [[Image:Azerilanguage.png]]
2008-02-15 14:57 < Golbez> hm and no pages link to it
2008-02-15 14:57 < Golbez> oh.
2008-02-15 14:57 < Golbez> well that's odd. =p
2008-02-15 14:57 < Golbez> deleting!
2008-02-15 14:57 < Mahlzahn__> heh
2008-02-15 14:57 < Cyrius> damn you!
2008-02-15 14:57 < Cyrius> heh
2008-02-15 14:58 < Cyrius> it was first uploaded in september 2006
2008-02-15 14:58 < Cyrius> why did this person upload a duplicate in november 2007?
2008-02-15 14:59 < Mahlzahn__> Golbez, since you're on a roll... take a look at Image:Jaso2.pdf <= note suffix. (caution: SPA creator. Perhaps not safe to open)
2008-02-15 15:00 < Mahlzahn__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jaso2.pdf
2008-02-15 15:00 < Golbez> "Jaso was a small but independent state prior to the independence of India in 1947. It is located in Bundelkhand region of central India and was ruled by the Bundela (Gaharwar) Kashriyas. Its geographical location is at latitude 24.55 and longitude 84.5. Presently it is in Satna district of Madhya Pradesh."
2008-02-15 15:00 < Golbez> Seeing as how that's not true, I would wager the item is either dangerous or nonencyclopedic
2008-02-15 15:00 < Golbez> and either way goes
2008-02-15 15:01 < Mahlzahn__> Just out of interest... how do you know its not true?
2008-02-15 15:01 < Golbez> oh wait nm
2008-02-15 15:01 < Golbez> well i searched for Jaso, I would assume that any "independent state" would have an article on wikipedia =p
2008-02-15 15:02 < Mahlzahn__> :p
2008-02-15 15:03 < Mahlzahn__> Good point though. A geographical location for a *state* with sub-zero precision seems strange.
2008-02-15 15:03 < TheWeasel> Maybe it's not a self-respecting independent state
2008-02-15 15:03 < gwern> maybe that's the location of the capital building
2008-02-15 15:04 < Mahlzahn__> I have a sneaking feeling its dangerous. Why would anyone upload a pdf anyway?
2008-02-15 15:04 < gwern> plenty of people upload PDFs to WP, although the reason is usually apparent...
2008-02-15 15:05 < Mahlzahn__> of course, I've been known to be over-the-top paranoid.
2008-02-15 15:05 < gwern> *more apparent
2008-02-15 15:05 < TheWeasel> You, ehem, aren't even close.
2008-02-15 15:05 < Cyrius> seems to just be text
2008-02-15 15:06 < Mahlzahn__> you opened it? :)
2008-02-15 15:06 < gwern> Mahlzahn__: if you were paranoid, your IP wouldn't be visible
2008-02-15 15:06 < Cyrius> Mahlzahn__: used OS X preview.app
2008-02-15 15:06 < Mahlzahn__> gwern: how do you know I'm not faking it? :)
2008-02-15 15:06 < TheWeasel> the behavior of my machine is weird
2008-02-15 15:06 < gwern> you'd be cloaked, and connecting through tor/open-proxy - if you even dared use as insecure a system as IRC
2008-02-15 15:06 < Golbez> either way
2008-02-15 15:06 < TheWeasel> sometimes it shows a hostmask, sometimes an IP
2008-02-15 15:06 < Golbez> there's no point to ever upload a PDF to wikipedia, is there?
2008-02-15 15:06 < Golbez> if it's an image, upload the image. if it's text, put it on wikisource.
2008-02-15 15:06 < TheWeasel> One should think so.
2008-02-15 15:06 < Cyrius> wikisource, yes; wikipedia, no
2008-02-15 15:07 < Cyrius> er
2008-02-15 15:07 < Cyrius> stupid english double negative crap
2008-02-15 15:07 < Cyrius> you know what I meant.
2008-02-15 15:07 < gwern> Mahlzahn__: security conscious folks don't use chatzilla, for one, and it looks to me like a residential IP, which are typically NATed or otherwise made difficult to proxy into/out of
2008-02-15 15:07 < quanticle> Golbez: Yeah, PDFs are for Wikisource
2008-02-15 15:07 < Mahlzahn__> you can't bind to the pdf anyway. Like [[Image: ... ]] syntax.
2008-02-15 15:07 * TheWeasel installs Fritz Eleven
2008-02-15 15:07 < quanticle> gwern: He could be running an IRC out a botnetted computer... :)
2008-02-15 15:08 < Mahlzahn__> gwern: all fake of course. Much better than cloaking
2008-02-15 15:08 < Golbez> deleted it
2008-02-15 15:08 < gwern> Mahlzahn__: sure...
2008-02-15 15:08 < Mahlzahn__> heh :)
2008-02-15 15:08 < Mahlzahn__> hey, I'm amongst friends here.
2008-02-15 15:08 < TheWeasel> there are no friends on teh internets
2008-02-15 15:08 < Mahlzahn__> at least, it sometimes feels that way.
2008-02-15 15:09 < gwern> Mahlzahn__: on the internet, all your friends are dogs, little girls, or FBI agents
2008-02-15 15:09 < TheWeasel> the latter two usually in personal union
2008-02-15 15:09 < TheWeasel> some would say all three
2008-02-15 15:10 < TheWeasel> ("...if I can shoot rabbits/then I can shoot fascists..."
2008-02-15 15:10 * TheWeasel hasn't listened to the MSP for a very long time
2008-02-15 15:10 < gwern> or I can shoot the lover who jilted me
2008-02-15 15:11 < gwern> or myself (be an hero)
2008-02-15 15:11 < Mahlzahn__> gwern, yes. I'm old enough to know what the internet was like before Tim Berners-Lee :)
2008-02-15 15:11 < TheWeasel> "an hero"?
2008-02-15 15:11 < TheWeasel> After all, Bonnie Tyler didn't sing "I need an hero"
2008-02-15 15:11 < quanticle> gwern: Ah, the internet: where men are men, women are men, and little childern are FBI agents
2008-02-15 15:11 < gwern> Mahlzahn__: ah, a fellow veteran of the Usenet of a million lies
2008-02-15 15:11 < TheWeasel> possibly to avoid confusion with "I need DeNiro"
2008-02-15 15:12 < gwern> quanticle: I knew someone would know the original I was invoking :)
2008-02-15 15:12 < TheWeasel> Meh?
2008-02-15 15:13 < TheWeasel> Why am I prompted to install DirectX 9.0?
2008-02-15 15:13 < TheWeasel> dat be odd
2008-02-15 15:13 < Mahlzahn__> particularly on your Mac.
2008-02-15 15:13 < TheWeasel> I don't have a Mac.
2008-02-15 15:13 < TheWeasel> (that's why it's odd, haha)
2008-02-15 15:14 < TheWeasel> Brb, gotta reboot
2008-02-15 15:14 < Leslie_S> so...whats the proper way to cite asians in APA?
2008-02-15 15:15 < Mahlzahn__> er, what?
2008-02-15 15:15 < eth01> the politically correct way?
2008-02-15 15:15 < Leslie_S> erm
2008-02-15 15:15 < Mahlzahn__> last name, first name.
2008-02-15 15:15 < Aqwis> political correctness = bad by default!
2008-02-15 15:15 < Leslie_S> See, apa uses last name, first initial.
2008-02-15 15:15 < Leslie_S> for gender neutrality
2008-02-15 15:15 < Leslie_S> but uh....asians have backwards names!
2008-02-15 15:15 < Leslie_S> i even asked an asian girl, and she wasnt sure
2008-02-15 15:16 < eth01> ummm, it's not just Asians which have this.
2008-02-15 15:16 < Demi> i would make up something; namely, I would leave out the comma
2008-02-15 15:16 < eth01> it's us British too.
2008-02-15 15:16 < Demi> Familyname A.
2008-02-15 15:16 < eth01> "Surname, Forename"
2008-02-15 15:16 < Leslie_S> ok
2008-02-15 15:18 < Lubaf> [[WP:ZEN]] needs more koanbell.
2008-02-15 15:18 < Lubaf> [[WP:STUPID]] needs more dumbbell.
2008-02-15 15:18 < Lubaf> [[WP:GIANTDICK]] needs more dickbell.
2008-02-15 15:18 < gwern> Lubaf: don't go looking at me. I added plenty of stuff to WP:ZEN
2008-02-15 15:18 < Leslie_S> LOL
2008-02-15 15:19 < Lubaf> gwern: How about [[WP:STUPID]] or [[WP:GIANTDICK]]?
2008-02-15 15:19 * gwern doesn't recall
2008-02-15 15:34 < TheWeasel> Fritz 11 loses the first game against Fritz 8
2008-02-15 15:34 < zvook> heheh
2008-02-15 15:34 < TheWeasel> but they play on equal play and he uses up about a fifth of the time, so he'd eat Fritz 8 alive in, say, blitz games
2008-02-15 15:34 < zvook> how many moves?
2008-02-15 15:34 < TheWeasel> *equal ply*
2008-02-15 15:34 < TheWeasel> 11, I wanted just a quick estimate
2008-02-15 15:35 < TheWeasel> oh, you mean the length of the game
2008-02-15 15:35 < zvook> mhm
2008-02-15 15:35 < TheWeasel> roughly 35 each I think
2008-02-15 15:35 < MessedRocker> still talking about chess?
2008-02-15 15:35 < zvook> was 11 some sort of search depth for moves?
2008-02-15 15:35 < TheWeasel> I'm having them play a 20-game match
2008-02-15 15:35 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-02-15 15:35 < TheWeasel> ply 11 is not much
2008-02-15 15:35 < TheWeasel> losing game 2 now as well
2008-02-15 15:36 < quanticle> TheWeasel: How's your CPU usage for that?
2008-02-15 15:36 < TheWeasel> betwixt 50 and 60%
2008-02-15 15:36 < quanticle> It'd be quite funny if Fritz 11 lost all 20 games to Fritz 8
2008-02-15 15:36 < TheWeasel> on very small hash tables cause it really doesn't matter with fixed ply
2008-02-15 15:37 < TheWeasel> hash tables are only interesting to reach depths quickly
2008-02-15 15:37 < TheWeasel> seems that pruning is its real strength and the equal ply measure doesn't really do it justice
2008-02-15 15:38 < TheWeasel> it plays positionally well but its not a tactic monster and is overplayed in that department
2008-02-15 15:39 < zvook> you mean it's more grabby and less developmental, as you suspected?
2008-02-15 15:39 < TheWeasel> other way round
2008-02-15 15:39 < TheWeasel> as I expected
2008-02-15 15:39 < TheWeasel> it's more human-friendly
2008-02-15 15:39 < TheWeasel> but worse against computers
2008-02-15 15:40 < zvook> oh i don't recall the early convo correctly
2008-02-15 15:40 < TheWeasel> *makes mental note to set up blitz match after this one
2008-02-15 15:41 < TheWeasel> it keeps on losing.
2008-02-15 15:41 < TheWeasel> it's definitely a knower, not a finder
2008-02-15 15:41 < TheWeasel> i.e. needs depth to function, has chess knowledge but less calculating breadth
2008-02-15 15:41 < zvook> mhm mhm
2008-02-15 15:44 < TheWeasel> wow
2008-02-15 15:47 < zvook> i read a book by Bronstein as a kid, wonder what the title was.
2008-02-15 15:47 < zvook> it was full of cool jokes
2008-02-15 15:48 < TheWeasel> first draw, and it's 0,5-4,5
2008-02-15 15:48 < zvook> like playing an opening variation because it was named for the adjudicator (in the world title match, i think!)
2008-02-15 15:48 < TheWeasel> Bronstein is awesome, it's a shame he was forced to lose to the Perfect Soviet, Botvinnik
2008-02-15 15:49 < TheWeasel> O'Kelly?
2008-02-15 15:49 < zvook> i really don't recall
2008-02-15 15:49 < zvook> yeah in the book he basically says that he chose to draw out of "politeness"
2008-02-15 15:49 < TheWeasel> wow, it overlooks tactical whoppers
2008-02-15 15:50 < zvook> or such is my recollection
2008-02-15 15:52 < TheWeasel> heh, fixed ply is something for brute force machines like F8, apparently
2008-02-15 15:52 * TheWeasel might just as well break it off
2008-02-15 15:52 < TheWeasel> I didn't think he would be hammered this badly
2008-02-15 15:53 < TheWeasel> but the use of time is four seconds vs. two minutes
2008-02-15 15:53 < TheWeasel> so I guess a blitz game would be fairer
2008-02-15 15:54 < TheWeasel> wow
2008-02-15 15:54 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-02-15 15:54 < TheWeasel> it is
2008-02-15 15:54 < TheWeasel> hah
2008-02-15 15:58 < MessedRocker> hah
2008-02-15 16:00 < TheWeasel> wow, tremendous depths
2008-02-15 16:00 < TheWeasel> where no Fritz has gone before
2008-02-15 16:00 < TheWeasel> brb
2008-02-15 16:00 < DragonFire1024> just a reminder for interested parties
2008-02-15 16:01 < DragonFire1024> Wikinews interview with Mark Bunker, Owner of anti-Scientology website, XenuTV | When: Sat Feb 16, 2008 (tomorrow) ; 4:00p.m. Eastern ; 1:00p.m. Pacific ; 21:00 UTC
2008-02-15 16:01 < DragonFire1024> and Sunday, Jeff Jacobson of lisamcpherson.org
2008-02-15 16:04 < DragonFire1024> and the deadline to ask questions is today...so hurry!
2008-02-15 16:04 < DragonFire1024> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Story_preparation/Wikinews_interviews_Mark_Bunker%2C_producer_of_anti-Scientology_website_%27XenuTV%27
2008-02-15 16:04 < Miranda> oh god...
2008-02-15 16:05 < DragonFire1024> Miranda: ?
2008-02-15 16:05 < Gracenotes> DragonFire1024: I think she fears therapy
2008-02-15 16:05 * Therapist_Cat cuddes with Gracenotes
2008-02-15 16:05 < DragonFire1024> ah :)
2008-02-15 16:05 < Therapist_Cat> cuddles*
2008-02-15 16:05 < MessedRocker> hvdjrtgdfndbdm
2008-02-15 16:06 < DragonFire1024> MessedRocker: you can say that again
2008-02-15 16:07 < Gracenotes> what? hvdjrtgdfndbdm?
2008-02-15 16:08 < MessedRocker> sing a song about the pelli-cat
2008-02-15 16:23 < MessedRocker> moooooo
2008-02-15 16:25 < gwern> 'At a minimum Microsoft is forcing competitors to act when they would rather not. If Yahoo succumbs Microsoft will gain exactly the sort of inside information they got from Intuit. Yahoo is a huge company plagued with pockets of inefficiency (pockets of efficiency?). A failed Microsoft bid, even one involving a termination fee, could lead to horrific results for the company'
2008-02-15 16:27 < gwern> 'Here is what little I know, dropped in my lap this week by a loyal reader (you know who you are). There are two gPhones slated for release with the first coming in September and the second probably not appearing until after Christmas. Given that the first is the high-end model and the second is cheaper, Google will probably expect to make as much money as possible on the higher-margin units at Christmas before revealing the budget model even ...
2008-02-15 16:27 < Paine> Brits, I command you to turn on channel 4.
2008-02-15 16:27 < gwern> ... exists. How Apple-like, eh?'
2008-02-15 16:27 < furrykef> Is there any particular reason I have to log into Wikipedia every day now?
2008-02-15 16:27 < furrykef> I'm not having problems with any other sites, so nothing's wrong with my cookies.
2008-02-15 16:27 < Starnestommy> bad cookies?
2008-02-15 16:28 < furrykef> Did somebody set the server so that the cookie will expire in 24 hours or something?
2008-02-15 16:29 < The359> no
2008-02-15 16:29 < The359> Problem is on your end
2008-02-15 16:29 < furrykef> Strange.
2008-02-15 16:40 < bridezilla> "A lending library is a library from which books are lent out"
2008-02-15 16:40 < bridezilla> What?
2008-02-15 16:40 < bridezilla> Isn't that the point of a library?
2008-02-15 16:40 < AppleBoy> gwern: what's apple like?
2008-02-15 16:40 < AppleBoy> I am me
2008-02-15 16:41 < gwern> AppleBoy: I believe it is referring to the quick and massive price cut in the iPhone
2008-02-15 16:41 < Demi> not all libraries are lending libraries
2008-02-15 16:41 < gwern> some chain down their books :)
2008-02-15 16:41 < Demi> you could own a library, for example, or it can be a reference or archive library
2008-02-15 16:42 < gwern> some don't even have open stacks
2008-02-15 16:42 * Demi checks out some good 'uns from the Library of Congress
2008-02-15 16:43 < shimgray> bridezilla: god no. lending libraries are a pretty modern innovation
2008-02-15 16:43 < The359> big'uns?
2008-02-15 16:43 < gwern> Demi: you damned politician
2008-02-15 16:43 < shimgray> mass circulating libraries are really only a feature of the last century and a half
2008-02-15 16:43 < gwern> shimgray: don't lending libraries in the americas go back centuries?
2008-02-15 16:44 < gwern> I'm sure I read that the american revolution was fomented in part by lending libraries...
2008-02-15 16:44 < shimgray> gwern: oh, there's isolated examples, but they're relatively unusual - quite often the spirit was around before the implementation
2008-02-15 16:44 < bridezilla> shimgray: So before that, you could only read books inside the library?
2008-02-15 16:44 < shimgray> (though, yes, the US was pretty good for early cases)
2008-02-15 16:44 < bridezilla> And maybe they even charged you to do that?
2008-02-15 16:45 < NotASpy> we've apparently had public libraries here in the UK for 400 years this year.
2008-02-15 16:45 < shimgray> bridezilla: I still do a lot of work in one that won't allow you to take books out. It's not unusual at all.
2008-02-15 16:45 < bridezilla> Hmm...
2008-02-15 16:46 < shimgray> the average novel now costs an hours wage. the average novel in 1850 cost a week's wage. Do the maths :-)
2008-02-15 16:46 < bridezilla> What kind of books?
2008-02-15 16:46 < shimgray> Books. Perfectly normal books.
2008-02-15 16:46 < bridezilla> ... do you look in?
2008-02-15 16:46 < shimgray> It's a reference library. That's how it works.
2008-02-15 16:46 < bridezilla> That are stationary in the library.
2008-02-15 16:46 < bridezilla> Like old ship logs?
2008-02-15 16:46 < shimgray> ?
2008-02-15 16:46 < gwern> shimgray: mm. but book prices are inflating though, and I'm not sure the price is falling for non-electronic media
2008-02-15 16:47 < bridezilla> "Friday, 24th of 1530. I saw a bird. Pretty wild storm. Bye, diary!"
2008-02-15 16:47 < shimgray> gwern: Principle's still the same, though. We've a long way to go before we encounter the old pricing system
2008-02-15 16:47 < shimgray> bridezilla: Oh, there's valuable stuff. But the rest of it is still non-loan stock
2008-02-15 16:47 < gwern> bridezilla: don't laugh. I was just reading about some scientists who assert based on their studies of old ship logs that it would take centuries of conservation before North American fishery stockes recover to pre-European levels
2008-02-15 16:47 < bridezilla> shimgray: Can you given an example?
2008-02-15 16:47 < gwern> *conservation/no-fishing-at-all
2008-02-15 16:48 < bridezilla> gwern: :S
2008-02-15 16:48 < pengo> hmm.. [[overfishing]]
2008-02-15 16:48 < shimgray> Uh, all of the deposit libraries here are reference only except for the UL in Cambridge - and they're weird - so that's the British Library, the National Library of Scotland, ditto Wales, and the Bodleian.
2008-02-15 16:49 < shimgray> which are all perfectly active working libraries, they just don't give books out.
2008-02-15 16:49 < bridezilla> I mean what kind of books are people looking in, and why?
2008-02-15 16:49 < bridezilla> What sort of information is extracted?
2008-02-15 16:49 < shimgray> EVERYTHING
2008-02-15 16:49 < gwern> doesn't really make sense for a deposit library to be lending; you should only be lending stuff you can afford to lose...
2008-02-15 16:50 < shimgray> Seriously, these aren't weird exotic libraries. They're deposit libraries. They're repositiories of *everything*. People go there to read anything and everything.
2008-02-15 16:51 < bridezilla> No fee to enter?
2008-02-15 16:51 < gwern> shimgray: true enough. I once asked you to look an entry of an odd edition of Encyclopedia Britannica, for example, iirc
2008-02-15 16:51 < shimgray> Depends on the insitution. BL and NLS haven't asked me for anything.
2008-02-15 16:51 < bridezilla> I could probably spend a lot of time in a library, finding random books and reading.
2008-02-15 16:51 < shimgray> gwern: and I found it!
2008-02-15 16:51 < gwern> that you did
2008-02-15 16:51 < bridezilla> Will Wikipedia ever be printed?
2008-02-15 16:51 < gwern> bridezilla: which Wikipedia, you should ask
2008-02-15 16:52 < bridezilla> English...
2008-02-15 16:52 < Aqwis> why would it be?
2008-02-15 16:52 < Aqwis> we have great paper encylopaedias already
2008-02-15 16:52 < The359> You want to kill a few forests?
2008-02-15 16:52 < gwern> bridezilla: who would dare? and who has the resources?
2008-02-15 16:52 < bridezilla> Even encyclopedias with short summaries for each thing are like HUGE.
2008-02-15 16:52 < gwern> to print, you would essentially need stable versions
2008-02-15 16:53 < bridezilla> E-paper Wikipedia...
2008-02-15 16:53 < Aqwis> bridezilla, people don't realize that even relatively short stubs on WP are longer than a normal paper encyc article
2008-02-15 16:54 < Aqwis> did you read some of the discussions about "banning stubs"?
2008-02-15 16:54 < gwern> no
2008-02-15 16:54 < bridezilla> To me, it's incredible how they made encyclopedias back in the day.
2008-02-15 16:54 < gwern> bridezilla: how so?
2008-02-15 16:54 < bridezilla> Imagine the work needed to start it.
2008-02-15 16:54 < bridezilla> And you can't get any income until it's done.
2008-02-15 16:55 < gwern> not true
2008-02-15 16:55 < gwern> the OED and many encyclopedias were by subscription
2008-02-15 16:55 < bridezilla> I suppose economically independent people worked on it.
2008-02-15 16:55 < bridezilla> Rally?
2008-02-15 16:55 < gwern> bridezilla: yeah.
2008-02-15 16:55 < bridezilla> s/Rally/Really/
2008-02-15 16:55 < bridezilla> Subscription... o_O
2008-02-15 16:56 < gwern> you'd subscribe for the OED and pay for each fasicle as it was released, for example
2008-02-15 16:56 < bridezilla> "Don't miss our next issue, where we define "boat" and other exciting things!"
2008-02-15 16:56 < Demi> yes, though there were not always entirely in order
2008-02-15 16:56 < TheWeasel> You boatophobe!
2008-02-15 16:56 < TheWeasel> :-P
2008-02-15 16:56 < gwern> a similar system is still in effect for knuth's The Art of Computer Programming, for example, although I forget if he charges for fascicles
2008-02-15 16:56 < bridezilla> I suppose wealthy men paid people to spend all day composing the articles?
2008-02-15 16:57 < gwern> bridezilla: that's how the modern encyclopedia britannica works :)
2008-02-15 16:57 < shimgray> ...no, that's not what the conventional subscription model is
2008-02-15 16:57 < gwern> sugar daddies buying it and pouring in money
2008-02-15 16:57 < bridezilla> Somehow I connect "sugar daddy" to something sexual.
2008-02-15 16:57 < shimgray> (subscription, lit. 'underwriting' - you subscribe to something by sub-scribing, signing your name on the list)
2008-02-15 16:57 < TheWeasel> We, the undersigned
2008-02-15 16:58 < shimgray> a subscription publication is essentially people promising to buy a copy when printed
2008-02-15 16:58 < shimgray> then when you have 100-200, you do a printing
2008-02-15 16:58 < TheWeasel> Uh...
2008-02-15 16:58 < shimgray> (or however many)
2008-02-15 16:58 < shimgray> the model does get confused for multi-volume works spread over time, mind you :-)
2008-02-15 16:58 < gwern> shimgray: mm. I've 'subscribed' to things and paid upfront
2008-02-15 16:58 < TheWeasel> the problem in that would only be the taking of the book, because the duty to pay doesn't go away easily
2008-02-15 16:59 < shimgray> gwern: ah, but these were Gentlemanly People, their Word could be Honoured, not plebs like YOU
2008-02-15 16:59 < gwern> :(
2008-02-15 16:59 < shimgray> :-P
2008-02-15 16:59 < TheWeasel> There is an old Reich Court decision about whether "the word of a gentleman" is a foundation of a contract
2008-02-15 17:00 < TheWeasel> (it isn't)
2008-02-15 17:00 < shimgray> and there we have it, ladies and gentlemen, the explanation for Germany.
2008-02-15 17:00 < shimgray> I rest my case.
2008-02-15 17:01 < gwern> TheWeasel: germany doesn't have verbal contracts?
2008-02-15 17:01 < Demi> shimgray - we paid for our independence with our sacred honor, and we're well shot of it. we find it makes it easier to get things done.
2008-02-15 17:01 < TheWeasel> the guy who promised to transfer property to his friend said "in my house we don't have Jewish morals, I keep to my word" (that is quoted in the ruling)
2008-02-15 17:01 < TheWeasel> We do, but there were elements of a contract missing in that promise
2008-02-15 17:01 < gwern> ironic
2008-02-15 17:01 < Demi> TheWeasel - in other words he was not an indian giver.
2008-02-15 17:01 < gwern> apaprently he does have the morals of a jew? :)
2008-02-15 17:02 < TheWeasel> Heh, for whatever that means
2008-02-15 17:02 < TheWeasel> Oh wait
2008-02-15 17:03 < TheWeasel> it was about transferring property of a house, I said that up there
2008-02-15 17:03 < TheWeasel> which does require the written and corroborated form
2008-02-15 17:03 < TheWeasel> i.e. written and handled by a notary
2008-02-15 17:03 < NotACow> TheWeasel: in the united states a verbal agreement to transafer real estate is invalid.
2008-02-15 17:03 < TheWeasel> Same.
2008-02-15 17:04 < NotACow> the same is true in england i believe
2008-02-15 17:04 < TheWeasel> 311b I BGB sayeth thou shalt go to a notary if thou wantest to be rid of your housie
2008-02-15 17:05 < TheWeasel> yea, here it's a great deal more formal
2008-02-15 17:05 < NotACow> a little thing called the "Statute of Frauds"
2008-02-15 17:05 < TheWeasel> the land registry has a whole different and sometimes rather overwhelming function here
2008-02-15 17:05 < NotACow> which requires a signed writing to evidence certain types of contracts
2008-02-15 17:06 < TheWeasel> I worked for a notary a couple of months which is why the scene in Chinatown where Jack Nicholson tears out the page from the registry gave me physical pain
2008-02-15 17:06 < gwern> TheWeasel: why?
2008-02-15 17:06 < TheWeasel> The registry is THE holy cow
2008-02-15 17:06 < NotACow> contracts to marry, contracts which cannoyt be completed within one year, contracts for the transfer of estates in land, contracts between an estate and its executor, certain contracts for the sale of goods, and certain contracts establishing a surety or guaranty
2008-02-15 17:06 < Demi> a notary is required to guard his registry with his life
2008-02-15 17:06 < TheWeasel> it's not decriptive, it's constitutive here
2008-02-15 17:06 < TheWeasel> you are not an owner unless the registry says so
2008-02-15 17:06 < NotACow> those restrictions date back to 1677
2008-02-15 17:06 < Demi> the law holds a notary's life forfeit if he cannot substantiate his seal
2008-02-15 17:07 < TheWeasel> o.o
2008-02-15 17:07 < gwern> TheWeasel: surely that merely emphasizes his criminaity and marginality?
2008-02-15 17:07 * shimgray is still bitter about the recent land reforms, they made it much less fun
2008-02-15 17:07 < gwern> Demi: forfeit? seriously?
2008-02-15 17:07 < shimgray> you don't have to get feu superior's consent for *anything* now!
2008-02-15 17:07 < TheWeasel> Well, he's the good guy, but that's just painful.
2008-02-15 17:07 < NotACow> shimgray: my main complaint is that it's virtually impossible to successfully obtain ownership by adverse possession these days
2008-02-15 17:08 < shimgray> squatting, right?
2008-02-15 17:08 < NotACow> shimgray: although someone did sue William Penn over a strip of land recently
2008-02-15 17:08 < gwern> Demi: and what does substaniate a seal mean?
2008-02-15 17:08 < NotACow> shimgray: indeed
2008-02-15 17:08 < Demi> gwern - no, you should know by now that i never say anything seriously
2008-02-15 17:08 < Demi> gwern - well, a notary has to keep a record of people they've identified and how
2008-02-15 17:08 < NotACow> there was a lawsuit to establish clear title over a small strip of land in pennsylvania
2008-02-15 17:09 < NotACow> the only clear title to it that could be found was the original royal grant to William Penn
2008-02-15 17:09 < shimgray> there was a guy in London a couple of years ago who got ownership of a bit of open ground near Hampstead where he'd been sleeping rough for a couple of decades.
2008-02-15 17:09 < NotACow> and so the plaintiff sued Penn for adverse possession
2008-02-15 17:09 < NotACow> nevermind that penn has been dead for well over 200 years
2008-02-15 17:10 < TheWeasel> You can bring a dead person to court?
2008-02-15 17:10 < NotACow> TheWeasel: in certain cases, yes
2008-02-15 17:10 < shimgray> his estate, certainly
2008-02-15 17:10 < TheWeasel> How do you deliver mail to William Penn?
2008-02-15 17:10 < NotACow> TheWeasel: you don't have to
2008-02-15 17:10 < NotACow> TheWeasel: service by public notice suffices
2008-02-15 17:10 < Wikiacc> I got bumped into overflow
2008-02-15 17:10 < TheWeasel> Oh, right.
2008-02-15 17:10 < gwern> isn't william penn dead?
2008-02-15 17:10 < NotACow> gwern: quite.
2008-02-15 17:10 < shimgray> public notice = insistent adverts in the Times?
2008-02-15 17:10 < Wikiacc> gwern: give or take a few centuries
2008-02-15 17:11 < NotACow> shimgray: the "paper of record" for the court in question, yes
2008-02-15 17:11 < Wikiacc> shimgray: well, considering how many of them there are, yeah
2008-02-15 17:11 < Wikiacc> shimgray: :P
2008-02-15 17:11 < TheWeasel> shimgray: Usually "in several papers the persons involved are likely to read" here
2008-02-15 17:11 < NotACow> shimgray: the local rules of most courts in the US specify which papers are the "paper of record"
2008-02-15 17:11 < TheWeasel> no more papers of record really
2008-02-15 17:11 < TheWeasel> over here
2008-02-15 17:11 < Wikiacc> shimgray: I've seen a few in National Geographic actually, which I thought odd
2008-02-15 17:12 < shimgray> we have papers of record, but I think if it's a matter of "trying to find missing person", the courts prefer you to use a real one
2008-02-15 17:12 < TheWeasel> The paper I read sometimes covers changes in the business roll.
2008-02-15 17:12 < Wikiacc> shimgray: and, when the target is particularly special, The Economist
2008-02-15 17:12 < shimgray> as *no-one* reads the London Register, or whatever it is.
2008-02-15 17:12 < Wikiacc> hello RobJ1981
2008-02-15 17:12 < MessedRocker> hy
2008-02-15 17:12 < TheWeasel> shimgray: You will if you expect something :-D
2008-02-15 17:12 < Wikiacc> wake up, Dmcsleep
2008-02-15 17:12 < NotACow> DEATH TO SLEEPING
2008-02-15 17:12 < Wikiacc> NotACow, calm down
2008-02-15 17:12 < RobJ1981> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Suriel1981/Sandbox is this necessary? It's a text art of 2 middle fingers.
2008-02-15 17:12 * TheWeasel prefers sleeping to death, thank you
2008-02-15 17:12 < MessedRocker> death to noncows
2008-02-15 17:13 < Wikiacc> RobJ1981: it's a user sandbox, put it up for MFD if you don't like
2008-02-15 17:13 < shimgray> in random finding-missing-person anecdotes, incidentally, my grandmother recently inherited ~£2000 from an old acquaintance of my grandfathers
2008-02-15 17:13 < Wikiacc> RobJ1981: or ask the user
2008-02-15 17:13 < shimgray> who the solicitor managed to track down, from another country, despite him being ten years dead. we were all quite impressed
2008-02-15 17:13 < Wikiacc> shimgray: that's, what, roughly 4000 USD?
2008-02-15 17:14 < Wikiacc> shimgray: very impressive
2008-02-15 17:14 * TheWeasel just got mail from someone looking for living relatives of a recently deceased person of my name (who would inherit)
2008-02-15 17:14 < NotACow> Wikiacc: somewhat less than that
2008-02-15 17:14 < NotACow> Wikiacc: but not much
2008-02-15 17:14 < TheWeasel> I get those things frequently, cause of a frequent last name
2008-02-15 17:14 < Wikiacc> NotACow: I know, it's somewhere around 1.75:1
2008-02-15 17:14 < RobJ1981> I'm not stupid, I know it's a user sandbox.
2008-02-15 17:14 < Wikiacc> hi Monobi
2008-02-15 17:14 < Wikiacc> RobJ1981: i know that you know
2008-02-15 17:14 * Wikiacc turns into Donald Rumsfeld
2008-02-15 17:14 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: Did I get to tell you about my newest Wikinews interview? :)
2008-02-15 17:14 < TheWeasel> For the US, the Mormons have a breathtaking database
2008-02-15 17:14 < TheWeasel> no you didn't
2008-02-15 17:15 < Wikiacc> TheWeasel: they have a huge family-tree repository in salt lake city
2008-02-15 17:15 < TheWeasel> no you didstn't
2008-02-15 17:15 < Mike_H> I'm going to be interviewing like 16 different cast members of the biggest soap here.
2008-02-15 17:15 < Mike_H> (they're having their 35th anniversary next month and we're running an article about it)
2008-02-15 17:15 < Wikiacc> Mike_H: which soap being that, wonders I
2008-02-15 17:15 < MessedRocker> woo
2008-02-15 17:15 < TheWeasel> Woohoo.
2008-02-15 17:15 < Mike_H> Wikiacc: Young and the Restless
2008-02-15 17:15 < gwern> TheWeasel: 'My entire extended family died in a freak gas explosion. I was the only survivor. Please send as certified check...'
2008-02-15 17:15 < shimgray> I am quietly pleased with that mormon db. It's an excellent example of what sheer hard work can do - modulo the dubious religious motives, it's a good example for us.
2008-02-15 17:15 < Wikiacc> Mike_H: o ok
2008-02-15 17:15 < Wikiacc> gwern: and, by the way, did I mention I'm part of the Nigerian royal family
2008-02-15 17:16 < Wikiacc> gwern: :-P
2008-02-15 17:16 < NotACow> TheWeasel: yeah, geneaological records in the US are amusing
2008-02-15 17:16 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: One of my friends is actually doing a stage show with a former Y&R actress
2008-02-15 17:16 < TheWeasel> No, but those professional inheritor searchers sometimes take money from you if you turn out to be the inheritor.
2008-02-15 17:16 < Mike_H> (and coincidentally, my favorite Y&R actress ever)
2008-02-15 17:16 < Wikiacc> shimgray: dubious religious motives, like, documenting ancestors so as to reunite with them in the spirit world?
2008-02-15 17:16 < TheWeasel> Regardless of whether you would have found things on your own
2008-02-15 17:16 < Monobi> hello
2008-02-15 17:16 < Mike_H> and I also asked if she'd like to be interviewed, with him asking as proxy
2008-02-15 17:16 < Mike_H> and she said yes :)
2008-02-15 17:16 < TheWeasel> cool
2008-02-15 17:16 < shimgray> Wikiacc: I didn't say it wasn't utterly hilarious
2008-02-15 17:17 < Wikiacc> shimgray: well the Mormons seem to be very good at hilarious doctrine
2008-02-15 17:17 < TheWeasel> Just slightly hilarious?
2008-02-15 17:17 < NotACow> did platinum break $2000 yet?
2008-02-15 17:17 < TheWeasel> Speaking of that, Hillary has won New Mexico?
2008-02-15 17:17 < MessedRocker> van hilleary
2008-02-15 17:17 * Wikiacc checks metals prices
2008-02-15 17:17 < The359> Hillary lovse the illegal immigrants
2008-02-15 17:17 < NotACow> yes it did
2008-02-15 17:17 < shimgray> caucus or primaries out there?
2008-02-15 17:17 < NotACow> hillary leads obama with texas latinos by only two points
2008-02-15 17:18 < NotACow> shimgray: new mexico primary was weeks ago
2008-02-15 17:18 < shimgray> ah, counting issues
2008-02-15 17:18 < shimgray> ?
2008-02-15 17:18 < NotACow> shimgray: but it took them a while to figure out just how the delegates split out
2008-02-15 17:18 < shimgray> ha!
2008-02-15 17:18 < shimgray> gotta love proportional representation
2008-02-15 17:18 < Wikiacc> NotACow: in the elections themselves, or in the opinion/exit polls?
2008-02-15 17:18 < NotACow> shimgray: the democratic delegate allocation formulas are fucking complicated
2008-02-15 17:18 < NotACow> Wikiacc: opinion polling
2008-02-15 17:18 < Wikiacc> platinum's at 2082
2008-02-15 17:18 * TheWeasel has gotten used to Obama, if Americans find him exciting, I'm becoming okay with that
2008-02-15 17:18 < Wikiacc> NotACow: what's the margin of error?
2008-02-15 17:19 < NotACow> Wikiacc: i think 3 but i don't recall.
2008-02-15 17:19 < TheWeasel> Der Spiegel recently ran a Messiah-complex themed article on him
2008-02-15 17:19 < NotACow> Wikiacc: dead heat, basically.
2008-02-15 17:19 * shimgray used to make a habit of counting STV - PR elections. 6am announcements from a 10pm close were not unknown
2008-02-15 17:19 < shimgray> (and the 49-hour count was a horror story we all tried not to think about)
2008-02-15 17:19 < NotACow> Wikiacc: hm, my sources say a bid of 2051 and an ask of 2056.
2008-02-15 17:20 < Wikiacc> NotACow: well if the margin between the candidates is 2 points, and the margin of sampling error is 3, they're essentially tied
2008-02-15 17:20 < NotACow> Wikiacc: indeed.
2008-02-15 17:20 < TheWeasel> Don't ask, don't tell
2008-02-15 17:20 < NotACow> Wikiacc: i took statistics 101 :)
2008-02-15 17:20 < Wikiacc> NotACow: I'm actually taking a statistics course now
2008-02-15 17:20 < Wikiacc> very interesting
2008-02-15 17:20 < NotACow> Wikiacc: yeah.
2008-02-15 17:20 < Gracenotes> hm. Wikipedia's down for anyone else?
2008-02-15 17:20 < NotACow> Wikiacc: now try applying them to wikipedia.
2008-02-15 17:20 < NotACow> Wikiacc: your head will burst.
2008-02-15 17:21 < Gracenotes> that's odd, it was down for a moment. Back up again, it seems
2008-02-15 17:21 < NotACow> Wikiacc: there is SO much statistics misuse on wikiepdia
2008-02-15 17:21 < NotACow> Gracenotes: probably slave lag.
2008-02-15 17:21 < TheWeasel> 26% of statistics are freely invented anyway.
2008-02-15 17:21 < The359> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GRD_Ltd. needs more templatse
2008-02-15 17:21 < Gracenotes> yeah
2008-02-15 17:21 < Wikiacc> NotACow: well, if I create a regression line between age of article and word count, then do a chi-square test of independence....
2008-02-15 17:21 < Wikiacc> :P
2008-02-15 17:21 < Gracenotes> and the server being too lazy to tell me about it :|
2008-02-15 17:21 < NotACow> Wikiacc: there's some rfar right now where someone claims to have "proven" that two editors are the same by comparing their edit time pattenrs
2008-02-15 17:21 < Gracenotes> if I had gone directly to the page, rather than used Special:Search, I probably wouldn't have had to deal with that
2008-02-15 17:22 * Gracenotes huggles squid
2008-02-15 17:22 < NotACow> Wikiacc: i wonder how many other editors would be "proven" to be the same if the same methodology were used
2008-02-15 17:22 < TheWeasel> template inflation on some articles is getting rather absurd.
2008-02-15 17:22 < Wikiacc> NotACow: I've always tried to steer clear of RFAr
2008-02-15 17:22 < Gracenotes> TheWeasel: there's an essay about that
2008-02-15 17:22 < Wikiacc> NotACow: I'm more the janitor admin than the one who runs around dealing with drama
2008-02-15 17:22 * NotACow believes the whole thing is founded in confirmation bias
2008-02-15 17:22 < Wikiacc> NotACow: that's a huge part of it
2008-02-15 17:22 < NotACow> the guy compiling the stats wants a specific conclusion