freenode #wikipedia

2008-02-15 10:59 < AzaTht> "A total of 22 people were shot; seven people are confirmed dead, two males, four females and one unknown, including the gunman who shot himself before police arrived"
2008-02-15 10:59 < AzaTht> I have problem with the word "including"
2008-02-15 11:00 < slashem> replace it with "and"
2008-02-15 11:00 < AzaTht> slashem: 7 or 8 then?
2008-02-15 11:00 < slashem> hm, either seems ok to me
2008-02-15 11:00 < slashem> kind of a political decision
2008-02-15 11:01 < Mark_Ryan> what's the problem with the word 'including'?
2008-02-15 11:01 < slashem> well, it makes it eight
2008-02-15 11:01 < Mark_Ryan> does it? or is he one of the two males?
2008-02-15 11:01 < AzaTht> Mark_Ryan: does include mean additional or part of?
2008-02-15 11:01 < slashem> hm, could be, but that is unclear from the sentence
2008-02-15 11:02 < slashem> "including" means part of
2008-02-15 11:02 < Mark_Ryan> it just says seven people are dead, not that there are seven victims
2008-02-15 11:02 < Mark_Ryan> or seven dead victims, rather
2008-02-15 11:02 < slashem> well, you can't sit there and explain what the sentence means to evey reader that might object or misinterpret
2008-02-15 11:02 < Mark_Ryan> if the seven dead don't include the gunman, then whoever wrote that sentence is slightly illiterate
2008-02-15 11:02 < AzaTht> Mark_Ryan: still, I have some problem by using including
2008-02-15 11:02 < slashem> so it's a lot better to rephrase it so it is clear
2008-02-15 11:03 < slashem> I wouldn't use the word "including"
2008-02-15 11:03 < AzaTht> slashem: it's the same in the infobox
2008-02-15 11:03 < slashem> "slightly illiterate" as iff that hasn't happened before on wikipedia
2008-02-15 11:03 < AzaTht> Deaths: 7 (including the perpetrator)
2008-02-15 11:03 < Mark_Ryan> using the word 'including' necessarily implies the gunman is one of those seven. i don't see the problem
2008-02-15 11:03 < slashem> the problem is that it is subject to misinterpretation
2008-02-15 11:03 < AzaTht> Mark_Ryan: not really
2008-02-15 11:03 < AzaTht> it could mean that the gunman is part of the dead
2008-02-15 11:04 < slashem> you know, writers should strive to not be misinitrepreted, not tell their readers they are wrong
2008-02-15 11:05 < Mark_Ryan> if the gunman isn't one of those seven, it should say "plus the gunman" or something like that
2008-02-15 11:05 < Mark_Ryan> as opposed to "including the gunman"
2008-02-15 11:05 < slashem> listing the gunman again at the end is confusing because he is being named twice
2008-02-15 11:05 < AzaTht> "being part of the group or topic just mentioned"
2008-02-15 11:05 < AzaTht> the group is the four, the topic is the dead
2008-02-15 11:05 < AzaTht> seven*
2008-02-15 11:06 < slashem> I still think the sentence needs to be rewritten, although substituting "and" for "including" doesn't work either
2008-02-15 11:06 < AzaTht> agree
2008-02-15 11:06 < AzaTht> <NewsWire> AP: Pope to Visit White House in April - http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PAPAL_VISIT?SITE=MAHYC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
2008-02-15 11:07 < Mark_Ryan> a clearer rewording would be something along these lines: "A total of 22 people were shot; seven of the victims are confirmed dead, two males, four females and one unknown. Also, the gunman shot himself dead before police arrived"
2008-02-15 11:07 < slashem> except it's not clear that is what the fact is, whether the gunman is one of seven dead or eight dead
2008-02-15 11:07 < AzaTht> Mark_Ryan: are there 7 or 6 victims?
2008-02-15 11:07 < slashem> you'd need to read the original press release to find out
2008-02-15 11:07 < Mark_Ryan> that's for you to work out :) once you do, reword :P
2008-02-15 11:08 < AzaTht> Mark_Ryan: haha
2008-02-15 11:08 * Mark_Ryan goes back to watching a late-night movie on TV
2008-02-15 11:08 < AzaTht> that's the problem I see with "including", it can act as i++
2008-02-15 11:09 < slashem> then there was the guy I played pictionary with, when presented with the word "raise" he wrote down a dollar sign, a checkmark, and ++
2008-02-15 11:09 < White_Cat> Mark_Ryan late night?
2008-02-15 11:09 < White_Cat> its 18 PM!
2008-02-15 11:09 < slashem> then he sits there all smug in his own clevereness
2008-02-15 11:10 < Mark_Ryan> White_Cat, it's past 1AM here
2008-02-15 11:10 < Mark_Ryan> I was up late last night at the hospital
2008-02-15 11:10 < White_Cat> Mark_Ryan aw
2008-02-15 11:10 < slashem> 18 pm?
2008-02-15 11:10 < White_Cat> Mark_Ryan shy?
2008-02-15 11:10 < Mark_Ryan> slashem: that's like 6AM
2008-02-15 11:10 < White_Cat> you werent a mdecial doctor right?
2008-02-15 11:10 < slashem> hahahaha
2008-02-15 11:10 < White_Cat> please say no
2008-02-15 11:11 * TheWeasel finishes off his quesadilla
2008-02-15 11:11 < Mark_Ryan> White_Cat: no, I wan't a doctor
2008-02-15 11:11 < slashem> do they have good mexican food in central europe?
2008-02-15 11:11 < TheWeasel> this here is handmade by South Americans, so it's reasonably authentic
2008-02-15 11:12 < slashem> wow the world really is a small place
2008-02-15 11:12 < TheWeasel> the answer is "quality is all over the place"
2008-02-15 11:12 < Mark_Ryan> I like to eat tacos
2008-02-15 11:12 < Mark_Ryan> especially with cheese.
2008-02-15 11:13 * slashem doesn't like messy food
2008-02-15 11:13 < Mark_Ryan> tacos can be messy, true
2008-02-15 11:13 < Mark_Ryan> tastes good but
2008-02-15 11:14 * TheWeasel hates the law of subsidies
2008-02-15 11:14 < TheWeasel> I think I've said it before, but it can hardly be said often enough
2008-02-15 11:14 < TheWeasel> subsidies are a royal pain in the arse
2008-02-15 11:15 * TheWeasel goes back to work
2008-02-15 11:15 < Mark_Ryan> I prefer the law of subsidiaries
2008-02-15 11:15 < TheWeasel> That's even worse, but I'm a government kind of guy.
2008-02-15 11:16 < TheWeasel> and subsidies are about as horrible as you'll get
2008-02-15 11:16 < TheWeasel> except possibly welfare
2008-02-15 11:16 < TheWeasel> (not politically, legally)
2008-02-15 11:17 * TheWeasel considers rewarding self by getting Fritz 11 this evening
2008-02-15 11:18 * TheWeasel has missed out on two versions, so an update could be due
2008-02-15 11:18 < Mark_Ryan> what is Fritz 11?
2008-02-15 11:18 < slashem> chess program
2008-02-15 11:19 < Mark_Ryan> you should try The Sims
2008-02-15 11:19 < Mark_Ryan> it's more intellectual
2008-02-15 11:19 < TheWeasel> not the best any more, but a bit more human friendly now
2008-02-15 11:20 < TheWeasel> the best engine is Rybka which plays chess like an alien
2008-02-15 11:20 < TheWeasel> i.e. it makes random moves that nobody gets, and suddenly stands fantastic
2008-02-15 11:20 < TheWeasel> -ally
2008-02-15 11:20 < TheWeasel> well
2008-02-15 11:22 < TheWeasel> With the Sims, I'm always getting in a Milgram Experiment mood
2008-02-15 11:22 < TheWeasel> it's no good for my mental health
2008-02-15 11:23 < NotACow> i try to ensure that all my sims have platinum moods
2008-02-15 11:23 * NotACow is trying to breed a red-headed alien
2008-02-15 11:24 < NotACow> with small eyes
2008-02-15 11:24 < NotACow> and a big nose
2008-02-15 11:24 < Mark_Ryan> I've never played The Sims 2, but I have played the original. and I am a mean overlord. I make them fall desperately in gay love, with lots of different people, then put them all in the same room
2008-02-15 11:24 < TheWeasel> (oo)
2008-02-15 11:24 < Mark_Ryan> chaos and hate ensues
2008-02-15 11:24 < NotACow> Mark_Ryan: don lothario has dated virtually every unmarried sim in our neighborhood
2008-02-15 11:24 < TheWeasel> Mark_Ryan: That's what I mean with Milgram Experiment mood
2008-02-15 11:25 < NotACow> Mark_Ryan: it can be quite the experience when he shows up on a random outing
2008-02-15 11:25 < Mark_Ryan> TheWeasel: oh, really? tell me more
2008-02-15 11:25 < NotACow> Mark_Ryan: at least the random vampirisms seem to have stopped
2008-02-15 11:25 < TheWeasel> Well, sort of a mindless overlordship
2008-02-15 11:25 < TheWeasel> just because I can
2008-02-15 11:25 < Mark_Ryan> NotACow: lol, wtf?
2008-02-15 11:25 < NotACow> Mark_Ryan: sims 2 has vampires
2008-02-15 11:26 < Mark_Ryan> TheWeasel: isn't that the whole point of the game?
2008-02-15 11:26 < Mark_Ryan> NotACow: I see, that's a bit different
2008-02-15 11:26 < NotACow> Mark_Ryan: and the game tries to maintain a 10% vampire proportion
2008-02-15 11:26 < Mark_Ryan> do they infect others?
2008-02-15 11:26 < TheWeasel> I dunno, they should make an anarchist version where you just leave them alone and watch
2008-02-15 11:26 < NotACow> Mark_Ryan: so if you have a vampire sim who has a sufficiently high relationship with another nonvampire sim, and there are less than 10% vampires, that sim will bite the other sim autonomously
2008-02-15 11:27 < NotACow> making that other sim a vampire
2008-02-15 11:27 < Mark_Ryan> I like to use hacks/cheat thing on the original Sims to make doorless rooms, and put a sim in the room
2008-02-15 11:27 < Mark_Ryan> that way I could keep rival spouses apart
2008-02-15 11:27 < NotACow> Mark_Ryan: cheating is far more serious in sims 2
2008-02-15 11:27 < TheWeasel> I once put the toilet right behind the door
2008-02-15 11:28 < TheWeasel> (I've never played it at home)
2008-02-15 11:28 < NotACow> Mark_Ryan: and it's made worse by sims who wants to have multiple simultaneous loves
2008-02-15 11:28 < NotACow> "Have 5 simultaneous lovers" is a highscoring want for romance sims
2008-02-15 11:28 < TheWeasel> Heh, promiscuity is bad, mk.
2008-02-15 11:29 < NotACow> we have two families now with more than one million simoleons
2008-02-15 11:29 < bumm13> heh, simoleons
2008-02-15 11:29 < NotACow> i think it's going to be time for Dave Lister to die soon
2008-02-15 11:29 < NotACow> he has eleven kids
2008-02-15 11:30 * TheWeasel was always impressed at old adventure games that would have text of its own for every conceivable action
2008-02-15 11:30 < TheWeasel> lol
2008-02-15 11:30 < NotACow> i've lost track of how many grandkids
2008-02-15 11:30 < NotACow> six, seven, i froget
2008-02-15 11:30 < TheWeasel> NotACow: We're definitely getting into the spooky semi-believability gap
2008-02-15 11:31 < TheWeasel> with all tha'
2008-02-15 11:31 < NotACow> mortimer goth is a vampire
2008-02-15 11:31 < NotACow> lilith goth (alexander's first wife) was eaten by a cowplant
2008-02-15 11:31 < NotACow> he's married to nina caliente now
2008-02-15 11:31 < TheWeasel> yay for neighborhoods that sound like Vincent Price movie settings
2008-02-15 11:32 * TheWeasel looks up cowplants
2008-02-15 11:32 < NotACow> angela (lilith's mean sister) died while running with scissors while she was at college.
2008-02-15 11:32 < NotACow> we tried to kill lilith with a hailstorm, but she just refused to die
2008-02-15 11:33 < NotACow> i wonder if we had a quill or a jumbok in the yard
2008-02-15 11:34 < NotACow> we let the oldies age off
2008-02-15 11:34 < NotACow> the wife went first
2008-02-15 11:35 < NotACow> herb was a day younger
2008-02-15 11:35 < NotACow> so right after his wife died, he had a last final one-day gay fling with some guy he met
2008-02-15 11:35 < NotACow> then died the next day
2008-02-15 11:36 < NotACow> i don't think we've let too many other people die
2008-02-15 11:36 < NotACow> there's a few dead dogs and maybe one dead cat
2008-02-15 11:36 < NotACow> pets are a pain
2008-02-15 11:37 < Logrus> what are you guys talking about, if I may ask?
2008-02-15 11:37 < NotACow> Logrus: the sims
2008-02-15 11:37 < Logrus> ah
2008-02-15 11:38 < Logrus> do people still play it?
2008-02-15 11:38 < NotACow> Logrus: hell yes
2008-02-15 11:38 < Logrus> I though it was ancient history
2008-02-15 11:38 < NotACow> haha, funny
2008-02-15 11:38 < Aqwis> the expansions of Sims 2 were the most sold games in Norway in 2007 afaik
2008-02-15 11:38 < Logrus> tried it once did not have the required patience
2008-02-15 11:38 < Aqwis> crazy tbh =/
2008-02-15 11:38 < NotACow> best selling game of all time
2008-02-15 11:38 < Logrus> hmmm
2008-02-15 11:39 < Logrus> I play warcraft3: Defence of the Ancients
2008-02-15 11:39 < NotACow> meh
2008-02-15 11:39 < NotACow> i can't stand shooters
2008-02-15 11:39 < NotACow> and i'm not fond of RTS
2008-02-15 11:40 < Logrus> what other games do Sims fans play?
2008-02-15 11:40 < NotACow> Logrus: there are other games?
2008-02-15 11:41 < NotACow> the sims sold 16 million copies and 13 million expansion packs
2008-02-15 11:41 < Logrus> that does not mean that you should not try other games
2008-02-15 11:41 * TheWeasel hasn't played a game that necessarily filled the whole screen for an eternity
2008-02-15 11:42 < TheWeasel> If, you know, that made any sense at all.
2008-02-15 11:42 < TheWeasel> i.e. ones where you can't casually alt-tab to your webbrowser
2008-02-15 11:44 < NotACow> there are only three console games that have outsold the Sims, and no PC games
2008-02-15 11:45 < NotACow> the Sims 2 is the fourth top seller of all time in the PC market
2008-02-15 11:46 < TheWeasel> o.o coriander leaves in my salad
2008-02-15 11:47 < TheWeasel> taste soapy
2008-02-15 11:47 < TheWeasel> Beating only Sims 1?
2008-02-15 11:47 < NotACow> ah you have that genetic variation
2008-02-15 11:47 < TheWeasel> -only
2008-02-15 11:47 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-02-15 11:47 < NotACow> TheWeasel: no, Sims 1 is the top seller of all time
2008-02-15 11:47 < NotACow> sims 2 is fourth
2008-02-15 11:48 < NotACow> i'm sorry, sims 2 is third
2008-02-15 11:48 < TheWeasel> I thought it was a genetic problem with ME that I taste the soapiness
2008-02-15 11:48 < NotACow> Lineage II (whatever that is) is #2
2008-02-15 11:48 < Logrus> soap is good for health I hear :D
2008-02-15 11:49 < TheWeasel> Enjoy.
2008-02-15 11:49 < TheWeasel> Lineage II seems to be a massive hit in Asia
2008-02-15 11:49 < Logrus> I think I passed the turing test, you guys think I human right?
2008-02-15 11:49 < TheWeasel> a MMORPG
2008-02-15 11:50 < Aqwis> Lineage II can't be no. 2
2008-02-15 11:50 < TheWeasel> now if you turn out to be humane as well..
2008-02-15 11:51 < Aqwis> what about World of Warcraft for example? 15 times more subscribers
2008-02-15 11:51 < NotACow> Aqwis: 14 million customers
2008-02-15 11:51 < Aqwis> really?
2008-02-15 11:51 < Aqwis> our page is wrong then
2008-02-15 11:51 < NotACow> Aqwis: well, this weird online encycopedia says so
2008-02-15 11:51 < Logrus> lol
2008-02-15 11:51 < NotACow> i suppose i shoud mnow better than to trist it
2008-02-15 11:51 < NotACow> it's full of bees, after all
2008-02-15 11:51 < NotACow> and trolls, too
2008-02-15 11:51 < NotACow> there's one now!
2008-02-15 11:52 < Aqwis> "It has become very popular since its October 1, 2003 launch in South Korea, reporting 610,918 unique users during the month of March 2007."
2008-02-15 11:52 < Logrus> yes I'm sure many games are better then Sims, selling stats dont make a game good...
2008-02-15 11:52 < domas> oh hi
2008-02-15 11:52 < Aqwis> Logrus, how "good" a game is is entirely subjective
2008-02-15 11:52 < Logrus> true
2008-02-15 11:52 < Aqwis> Sims players wouldn't find BioShock or other FPSes good
2008-02-15 11:52 < TheWeasel> "NCsoft today announced Lineage® II, with more than 14 million customers worldwide, has reached 100,000 active players in North America and Europe. The title started as a cult favorite of many massively multiplayer online (MMO) gamers in North America and Europe and continues its success as the premiere player-versus-player (PvP) online role playing game for the elite PvP player."
2008-02-15 11:53 < Aqwis> despite them having won GOTY awards here and everywhere
2008-02-15 11:53 < TheWeasel> wow, I didn't know Cossacks was so far up
2008-02-15 11:54 < shimgray> Aqwis: if "good" was the only absolute metric, we needen't have bothered making any games since 1991...
2008-02-15 11:54 < Aqwis> what happened in 1991?
2008-02-15 11:54 < Logrus> how is that shimgray?
2008-02-15 11:54 < shimgray> Civilization.
2008-02-15 11:54 < shimgray> ;-)
2008-02-15 11:54 < TheWeasel> Best game evuh.
2008-02-15 11:55 < Logrus> :)
2008-02-15 11:55 < White_Cat> Civilization is ruined
2008-02-15 11:55 < Aqwis> nostalgia tbh =/
2008-02-15 11:55 * White_Cat thinks we need a new Civilization
2008-02-15 11:55 < Aqwis> the sequels are better.
2008-02-15 11:55 < TheWeasel> I don't know how much it has been improved with the further versions
2008-02-15 11:55 < TheWeasel> Anno 1602, good times
2008-02-15 11:55 < TheWeasel> that was a goofy game
2008-02-15 11:55 < Aqwis> i remember that
2008-02-15 11:55 < TheWeasel> but it creazed a buzz in 1998 or so
2008-02-15 11:55 < TheWeasel> *t
2008-02-15 11:55 < Aqwis> only good german-made game i ever played i believe ;)
2008-02-15 11:56 < TheWeasel> Pizza Connection!
2008-02-15 11:56 < Aqwis> that was german-made too?
2008-02-15 11:56 < TheWeasel> I think so.
2008-02-15 11:56 < TheWeasel> I created great pizze
2008-02-15 11:56 < shimgray> I suppose you could make a case for UFO, in 1993.
2008-02-15 11:56 < TheWeasel> I don't really remember any others
2008-02-15 11:56 < Logrus> people people why waste life on games when there is so much to do in real life?
2008-02-15 11:56 < TheWeasel> oh, Anstoss football managing sims
2008-02-15 11:57 < TheWeasel> but only the first few versions, especially 2
2008-02-15 11:57 < TheWeasel> As I said, I spend very little time doing dedicated gaming
2008-02-15 11:57 < TheWeasel> ...and of course Fritz
2008-02-15 11:58 < TheWeasel> but that's hardly a game
2008-02-15 11:58 < Supaplex> I want {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} to count articles in two namespaces, Main, and Freeside. is it possible, and if so, how? (freeside/foss wiki)
2008-02-15 11:58 < TheWeasel> it's more a chess GUI with an engine attached
2008-02-15 12:00 < TheWeasel> and some bells and whistles
2008-02-15 12:02 < Sfan00> Link nuke and pruge continues
2008-02-15 12:03 < Sfan00> I am suprised it's taken this long for anyone to bother
2008-02-15 12:03 < Sfan00> *purge
2008-02-15 12:03 < Sfan00> :)
2008-02-15 12:03 < Sfan00> But they will be more of it
2008-02-15 12:03 < Sfan00> :)
2008-02-15 12:03 < Sfan00> Until the enwiki is clear from 'copyvio' links :)
2008-02-15 12:03 < TheWeasel> as always, be prudent.
2008-02-15 12:04 < OverlordQ> what are you nuking and puring?
2008-02-15 12:04 < OverlordQ> *purging
2008-02-15 12:05 < Sfan00> OverloadQ: HOTU , YouTube , Abandonwarez etc
2008-02-15 12:05 < OverlordQ> ah
2008-02-15 12:06 < Sfan00> Suprisingly it's caused open dissent at Wikiproject:Videogames, when all that being done is something that should policy-wise have been done a LONG time ago
2008-02-15 12:06 < Sfan00> .
2008-02-15 12:06 < TheWeasel> You tend to be a little overactive though.
2008-02-15 12:07 < Sfan00> You tube links in particular
2008-02-15 12:07 < Sfan00> TheWeasel: Me
2008-02-15 12:07 < Sfan00> ?
2008-02-15 12:07 < TheWeasel> Yea
2008-02-15 12:07 < Sfan00> Overreacrtive? LOL
2008-02-15 12:07 < Sfan00> At least I'm not a whole sale deletion vandal :)
2008-02-15 12:07 < TheWeasel> That's not a standard one should measure oneself against.
2008-02-15 12:07 < Sfan00> I do at least apply some common sense :)
2008-02-15 12:08 < Demi> i'm fed up with social networking, can it please stop now?
2008-02-15 12:08 < Sfan00> Demi:??
2008-02-15 12:08 < TheWeasel> It's not as bad as it used to be.
2008-02-15 12:08 < TheWeasel> the myspace hype is about over
2008-02-15 12:08 < Sfan00> You want me to start nuking myspace links as well?
2008-02-15 12:08 < TheWeasel> AAH!
2008-02-15 12:08 < shimgray> NO, FOR GOD'S SAKE NO
2008-02-15 12:08 < Supaplex> i'm fed up with 489842 passwords for every site you have 'some' account on.
2008-02-15 12:08 < Demi> this doesn't have to do with wikipedia, i'm talking about in general
2008-02-15 12:09 < TheWeasel> I think it's becoming a bit less this year.
2008-02-15 12:09 < Demi> you and i might be friends; but why do we need some way of informing strangers of this fact?
2008-02-15 12:09 < Sfan00> Myspace is also a nice way for criminals to get all your details
2008-02-15 12:09 < TheWeasel> Because you want comments from random strangers, do you not.
2008-02-15 12:09 < NotACow> DEATH TO EXTERNAL LINKS
2008-02-15 12:09 < Demi> TheWeasel - apparently.
2008-02-15 12:09 < Demi> NotACow - hear hear
2008-02-15 12:10 < bumm13> bork bork bork!
2008-02-15 12:10 < TheWeasel> Sfan00: I guess to a degree there's a right to lying on these things.
2008-02-15 12:10 < Sfan00> and Facebook is of course a 'black helicopter' related plan to steal your mind and enslave you to the whims of the shadow government
2008-02-15 12:10 < Sfan00> ;)
2008-02-15 12:10 < Demi> actually myspace is a host for a lot of bands' more or less official websites
2008-02-15 12:10 < Demi> even if facebook works exactly like it's supposed to, i hate it
2008-02-15 12:10 < Demi> i don't care about the hidden agenda because the explicit agenda is irritating enough
2008-02-15 12:11 < TheWeasel> At least Facebook is gated to a degree
2008-02-15 12:11 < domas> facebook
2008-02-15 12:11 < Demi> linked in at least sort of serves a function
2008-02-15 12:11 < domas> ergh
2008-02-15 12:11 < domas> facebook is for converting your time to their value
2008-02-15 12:11 < domas> wikipedia is for converting your time into your value
2008-02-15 12:11 < NotACow> Demi: if it's worth including, it's worth writing something to explain why it's there.
2008-02-15 12:11 < Sfan00> I am waiting for Facebook to be done fo 'aiding or abbeting' harrasment
2008-02-15 12:11 < domas> \o/
2008-02-15 12:11 < TheWeasel> People like me who are phone-phobics are helped by facebook
2008-02-15 12:11 < NotACow> Demi: and then at this point you have CONTENT!
2008-02-15 12:11 < Demi> NotACow - yes
2008-02-15 12:11 < NotACow> Demi: it's the same reason i hate lists.
2008-02-15 12:11 < NotACow> Demi: people should write ARTICLES, not LISTS
2008-02-15 12:11 < Sfan00> facebook is also a a distrubingly simple way of getting marketing info
2008-02-15 12:12 < NotACow> lists are just disconnected bundles of trivia
2008-02-15 12:12 < Demi> NotACow - sources; not links. and it's not worth linking to something if it can't be a source. (except if it's the official website of the subject)
2008-02-15 12:12 * TheWeasel thinks tertiary consequences of what you call harrassment are far worse than the primary ones
2008-02-15 12:12 < Demi> NotACow - well, that's a broader question of whether wikipedia should have almanac-like information as well
2008-02-15 12:12 * NotACow harasses TheWeasel for using the word "tertiary"
2008-02-15 12:12 < TheWeasel> i.e. your future boss sees photos of you that you didn't even know were taken
2008-02-15 12:12 * Demi worries more about the quaternary consequences
2008-02-15 12:13 < NotACow> Demi: i think they need to find a better way to present structured data.
2008-02-15 12:13 < TheWeasel> and so you're forced to be a hermit to get a job
2008-02-15 12:13 < TheWeasel> (which is basically what yours truly is doing)
2008-02-15 12:13 < NotACow> TheWeasel: excecpt if you're a hermit, you can't get a job because in order to get a job these days you need a social network
2008-02-15 12:13 < TheWeasel> heh yes.
2008-02-15 12:14 < TheWeasel> I think people overestimate the fact that the internet is written.
2008-02-15 12:14 < uberpenguin> LOL WIKIPEDIA
2008-02-15 12:14 < Demi> NotACow - here's how i use my almanac. I look up what kind of anniversary is what (5 is paper, 25 is silver, whatever); i look up the table of military ranks for the dod, and so forth.
2008-02-15 12:14 < TheWeasel> It's far more oral than written in character
2008-02-15 12:14 < Demi> NotACow - to do that right requires something a bit different than mediawiki
2008-02-15 12:14 < TheWeasel> it has far less "documents" than random casual statements
2008-02-15 12:14 < NotACow> Demi: indeed.
2008-02-15 12:14 < TheWeasel> and people don't get that and don't act accordingly
2008-02-15 12:14 < NotACow> Demi: you want a structured data system
2008-02-15 12:14 < Demi> NotACow - the closest popular wiki i know of is twiki plus its database cache extensions; however, scaling-wise nothing like it would work for wikipedia
2008-02-15 12:15 < Demi> NotACow - i have some ideas
2008-02-15 12:15 < NotACow> Demi: yeah this is hard to scale well....
2008-02-15 12:15 < TheWeasel> Okay, brb.
2008-02-15 12:15 < NotACow> Demi: probably the best approach is to store the data itself in a backend, and regenerate the published views when it changes.
2008-02-15 12:15 < NotACow> Demi: schema changes are especially expensive.
2008-02-15 12:16 < Demi> NotACow - my idea includes two scaling factors: an easy way to partition the metadata database, and a distributed source code control system-like scheme for easy managament of loosely-connected instances
2008-02-15 12:16 * TheWeasel considers going up to [[Kaufhaus des Westens]]
2008-02-15 12:18 < Demi> i'm pretty sure that's the title of a falco song
2008-02-15 12:19 < TheWeasel> But he's Austrian, the KaDeWe is in Berlin
2008-02-15 12:19 < MonteChrist> hi
2008-02-15 12:20 < TheWeasel> Rock me, Amadeus!
2008-02-15 12:21 < TheWeasel> for the Mozart year, the Austrians have run a rather pointless tourism campaign for the skiing villages, called "Ski Amadé"
2008-02-15 12:21 < TheWeasel> nobody knows what Mozart has to do with ski
2008-02-15 12:22 < TheWeasel> neither does anybody know the trouble I've seen (except the Jee-Man)
2008-02-15 12:23 < gwern> the latest xkcd disapoints me
2008-02-15 12:23 < slashem> but Mozart has to do with money, and so does ski!
2008-02-15 12:23 < gwern> munroe should know better than that
2008-02-15 12:23 < Demi> ha, i like it
2008-02-15 12:24 < TheWeasel> He never had enough money, and neither do we to afford skiing there?
2008-02-15 12:24 < TheWeasel> That's bad PR
2008-02-15 12:24 < slashem> oh who cares about Mozart when he was alive. He is worth money now!
2008-02-15 12:24 < gwern> Demi: I don't. it seems like an ignorant attack on a straw man of the drake equation
2008-02-15 12:24 < TheWeasel> That's about it. They used him to sell all kinds of rubbish last year.
2008-02-15 12:24 < Demi> i'm sure if mozart was alive today, he'd enjoy spending time at one of austria's many fine skiing resorts.
2008-02-15 12:25 < Demi> gwern - a straw man for what?
2008-02-15 12:25 * TheWeasel imagines a skinny guy dashing down a hill with a powdered wig on
2008-02-15 12:25 < gwern> Demi: what's his point?
2008-02-15 12:26 < gwern> he simply seems to say 'times the amount of his BS you'll eat'
2008-02-15 12:26 < Demi> gwern - that that equation, and the entire argument, is utterly without foundation and complete pipe dream bullshit?
2008-02-15 12:26 < gwern> what kind of criticism is that? I'm not sure it even rises to the level of ad homnimem
2008-02-15 12:27 < slashem> i agree with gwern
2008-02-15 12:27 < slashem> this is a very lame joke
2008-02-15 12:27 < Demi> that equation, and the argument it represents, is false rigor of the worst sort. we have no idea of the frequency of any of these factors.
2008-02-15 12:27 < gwern> Demi: it's a useful tool for geting a hang of how many detectable human-like civilizations
2008-02-15 12:27 < Demi> gwern - no, it's not
2008-02-15 12:27 < slashem> well hey, I don't agree as much with gwern as I thought
2008-02-15 12:27 < gwern> he never said it was the One Perfect equation
2008-02-15 12:27 < Demi> it's complete fantasy
2008-02-15 12:27 < slashem> it is a stupid equation, but this joke is not very funny
2008-02-15 12:27 < gwern> what's fantasy about it?
2008-02-15 12:27 < shimgray> gwern: "Let's make up some factors and then multiply them together". I like Drake, really I do, but...
2008-02-15 12:28 < Demi> gwern - there is no foundation for any of those frequencies
2008-02-15 12:28 < shimgray> ...when it boils down to it, you have a value which varies by seven orders of magnitude based on one factor we can't do anything but guess at.
2008-02-15 12:28 < Demi> we have a sample size of one. we have no idea the frequency with which any of those important events might take place.
2008-02-15 12:28 < gwern> shimgray: and what better thought experiment do you have for how much human-like detectable life is out there?
2008-02-15 12:28 < slashem> an equation that breaks up a big unknown into individual factors which are all unknown is not progress
2008-02-15 12:28 < Demi> gwern - how about "we don't know?" that's better.
2008-02-15 12:29 < Demi> and "we like stories about aliens but they are fiction."
2008-02-15 12:29 < shimgray> gwern: I don't. It doesn't give the Drake Equation any more rigor than "I asked some dolphins"
2008-02-15 12:29 < gwern> Demi: what, we have 'no idea' about frequences of detectable civilizations on earth? no idea about the proportion of planets in the water zone?
2008-02-15 12:29 < White_Cat> shimgray dolphins are a reliable source
2008-02-15 12:29 < shimgray> "there is nothing better" is not "this is not crap"
2008-02-15 12:29 < slashem> gwern, we don't even know if those are the only relevant factors
2008-02-15 12:29 < White_Cat> they all say the same thing
2008-02-15 12:29 < gwern> you're admitting defeat before you even start, and mocking those who are trying
2008-02-15 12:29 < shimgray> gwern: ....actually, we have less idea about the proportion of planets in the habitable zone than we did when Drake began
2008-02-15 12:29 < slashem> no, I, at least, am saying this is not part of science
2008-02-15 12:30 < gwern> 'oh, you only have priors of 60 or 70 percent? your results are total wish fulfillment'
2008-02-15 12:30 < slashem> and treating it like some kind of scientific equation is voodoo
2008-02-15 12:30 * TheWeasel wants a mid-19th century bowtie
2008-02-15 12:30 < slashem> no, I don't think we have priors that are that accurate
2008-02-15 12:30 < TheWeasel> they look awesome
2008-02-15 12:30 < slashem> pretty much every factor in this equation is completely unknown
2008-02-15 12:30 < White_Cat> shimgray our understanding of the universe is no more than an ants understanding of the solar system
2008-02-15 12:31 < Demi> gwern - mixing factors with no basis with known factors still produces a result without basis.
2008-02-15 12:31 < White_Cat> shimgray we do not have the slightest idea what most of the universe is made out of
2008-02-15 12:31 < gwern> ' fc is the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space' <-- we have information on this
2008-02-15 12:31 < Demi> nope
2008-02-15 12:31 < gwern> 'L is the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.' <-- ditto
2008-02-15 12:31 < Demi> nope
2008-02-15 12:31 < slashem> gwern: sample size: one
2008-02-15 12:31 < Supaplex> how do I restrict file uploads only for sysop/admins?
2008-02-15 12:32 < slashem> let me repeat: sample size: one
2008-02-15 12:32 < shimgray> gwern: ...we don't
2008-02-15 12:32 < gwern> ' fp is the fraction of those stars that have planets' <-- observation is getting us much better info, now that we cana ctually, y'know, detect them
2008-02-15 12:32 < gwern> ' R∗ is the average rate of star formation in our galaxy' <-- I think we have pretty good info on that
2008-02-15 12:32 < slashem> sample size of earthlike planets: one
2008-02-15 12:32 < gwern> slashem: so? a sample size of 1 still is not reasoning from a position of complete ignorance
2008-02-15 12:32 < shimgray> for the first, we have a very variable result of either "all of them" or "very few", depending how we define "civilization"
2008-02-15 12:32 < Demi> gwern - it doesn't matter. like i said, mixing known factors, even if you know them really well, with factors that are utterly without basis results in a number which is also utterly without basis.
2008-02-15 12:32 < shimgray> for the second, we have "at least a few decades but maybe no more or maybe a billion years"
2008-02-15 12:33 < slashem> gwern: for some reason you seem to think probabilities can be estimated from a sample size of one
2008-02-15 12:33 < gwern> slashem: and for some reason, you seem to think that it's impossible to know anything
2008-02-15 12:33 < Demi> gwern - wow, you're really reaching
2008-02-15 12:33 < slashem> _also_ I agree with Demi that even a known probability when multiplied by a random factor yields a random variable
2008-02-15 12:33 < Demi> sorry xkcd pissed in your cheerios so badly
2008-02-15 12:34 < slashem> gwern, I really don't see what is wrong with the argument that we have a sample size of one
2008-02-15 12:34 < shimgray> basically, Drake's equation is a ballpark estimate on the back of an envelope. Its answer varies by several orders of magnitude depending on your assumptions. I really can't see how it's *meaningful* without data we just don't have
2008-02-15 12:34 < gwern> good grief. none of the variables are totally unknown and random; we have empirical and rational methods which give us better information than total ignorance
2008-02-15 12:35 < Demi> gwern - any estimate of the frequency with which life develops or how smart it gets is completely without basis
2008-02-15 12:35 < TheWeasel> Absence of complete ignorance doth not a wise man make.
2008-02-15 12:35 < shimgray> "Lifetime of a technologically advanced civilization" - the empirical answer is "I'm no deid yet!"
2008-02-15 12:35 < slashem> well, we know that the number of communicating civilizations in our galazy is not zero, and it is not infinite
2008-02-15 12:35 < gwern> Demi: oh really. so would an estimate of 1/age of universe be as completely without basis as billion/age of universe?
2008-02-15 12:35 < slashem> are you happy with that result?
2008-02-15 12:35 < gwern> you're contradicting yourself
2008-02-15 12:35 < Demi> gwern - what?
2008-02-15 12:36 < slashem> because frankly, I don't think that result is worth the ink used to print the equation
2008-02-15 12:36 < Demi> oh, you mean we know there is one earthlike civilization? yes, more than that we can't say.
2008-02-15 12:36 < slashem> really, what an odd argument, "it's better than nothing!"
2008-02-15 12:36 < slashem> why are we debating absolutes?
2008-02-15 12:36 < gwern> slashem: it's a start
2008-02-15 12:36 < slashem> I'm sorry, would you care to establish a similar equation determining how many souls there are?
2008-02-15 12:37 < Demi> ooh
2008-02-15 12:37 < gwern> it provides a place to start our dicussion, and a way to prioritise research - 'which factor has the worst uncertainty?'
2008-02-15 12:37 < Demi> how many angels can dance on the head of a pin
2008-02-15 12:37 < slashem> you have got to be kidding me
2008-02-15 12:37 < slashem> the odds of being struck by lightning are on in (some) millions
2008-02-15 12:37 < Demi> if we assume that angels, if they exist, are *this ephemeral*, and can be assumed to occupy *this* amount of space... since we know the area of the head of a pin, we have made progress!
2008-02-15 12:37 < slashem> but dying in a terrorist attack is about one in thirty million
2008-02-15 12:38 < slashem> therefore god knows we would never prioritise DHS above research into lightning
2008-02-15 12:38 < gwern> humans are irrational, alas
2008-02-15 12:38 < slashem> no duh
2008-02-15 12:38 < Demi> yes, as evidenced by people's ridiculous attachment to things like the Drake equation
2008-02-15 12:38 < gwern> the focus on terrorism isfoolish and kills more humans than it saves, but try convinving the electorate of that!
2008-02-15 12:38 < slashem> heh, I was about to say that
2008-02-15 12:38 < Demi> because it satisfies us *so much* to think that there are aliens out there. we want it so bad we can taste it.
2008-02-15 12:39 < slashem> the drake equation is an irrational attempt to convince ourselves there are civilizations out there we can communicate with
2008-02-15 12:39 * TheWeasel is in complete apathy as to the existance of aliens
2008-02-15 12:39 < slashem> you realize a zero in ANY of the factors drives the equation to zero
2008-02-15 12:39 < TheWeasel> I wouldn't be surprised, and I wouldn't find it supernatural
2008-02-15 12:39 < shimgray> well,yes
2008-02-15 12:39 < TheWeasel> but I don't care
2008-02-15 12:40 < gwern> many sets of value for the drake equation come up with a 1; it isn't exclusively used by those who want ETI
2008-02-15 12:40 < Demi> slashem - or a factor as infinitesimal in scale as the other factors are large
2008-02-15 12:40 < shimgray> if any of the factors are zero, we're probably logically impossible and we wouldn't be having this discussion
2008-02-15 12:40 < shimgray> (ha! the soft anthropic principle saves the day!)
2008-02-15 12:40 < slashem> not to mention that, oh, lets see, we only need the sixth root of (what is the number of stars in the galaxy, ten billion?)
2008-02-15 12:41 * TheWeasel looks with horrow at Paul Morphy's shoes
2008-02-15 12:41 < gwern> the probably bottleneck, imo, is intelligent life arising from life; look at earth, we go billions of years and then accidentally get some primates
2008-02-15 12:42 < AppleBoy> welp
2008-02-15 12:42 < AppleBoy> my laptop fails, 57% original capacity :(
2008-02-15 12:42 < gwern> delete some of the pron
2008-02-15 12:42 < gwern> you can always replace it later through some torrents
2008-02-15 12:42 < slashem> if you want chess fashion, I suggest http://members.aol.com/lordbyron8888/kosteniuk3.jpg
2008-02-15 12:42 < TheWeasel> Now, for those bowties http://www.chesslive.de/playbase/playbase.mmm/mor06552.jpg
2008-02-15 12:42 < TheWeasel> Alexandra is overrated.
2008-02-15 12:42 < AppleBoy> err, batttery can only hold 57% original capacity
2008-02-15 12:43 < AppleBoy> it's gone through 460 load cycles
2008-02-15 12:43 < slashem> did you mean by FIDE?
2008-02-15 12:43 < slashem> or by hordes of chess nerds?
2008-02-15 12:43 < gwern> oh, battery - I assumed diskspace
2008-02-15 12:43 < TheWeasel> By hordes of chess nerds
2008-02-15 12:43 < TheWeasel> FIDE only overrates money.
2008-02-15 12:43 < AppleBoy> plenty of diskspace
2008-02-15 12:43 < slashem> well, speaking as one of a horde, I beg to differ!
2008-02-15 12:44 < gwern> TheWeasel: needs more cleavage, so as you stare down at the chessboard, you can relieve your eyes
2008-02-15 12:44 * TheWeasel sends slashem into the Elista exile
2008-02-15 12:44 < TheWeasel> until a few months ago, I'd have said Magnus Carlsen was overrated by FIDE, but it's hard to argue now
2008-02-15 12:45 < TheWeasel> Carlsen's style (if not his dominance) occasionally is very Fischer-like, but he's a very down-to-earth kid.
2008-02-15 12:46 < TheWeasel> (for Norway, he's certainly dominant obviously)
2008-02-15 12:47 < TheWeasel> plus, he beats the Russians :-P
2008-02-15 12:47 < TheWeasel> by Russians, I of course mean everyone in Europe east of the Iron Curtain
2008-02-15 12:47 < TheWeasel> even those who now have some western citizenship
2008-02-15 12:48 < TheWeasel> It's funny, people have complained that Viktor Korchnoi appears as "Kortschnoj" in some chess databases, but Kortschnoj is actually his name, he's a Swiss citizen
2008-02-15 12:48 < Mike2> do you think Kasparov is the greatest of all time?
2008-02-15 12:49 < TheWeasel> I dislike Kasparov greatly and I'm not good enough to really judge his play, but probably.
2008-02-15 12:49 < Demi> i like alekhine, he had attitude
2008-02-15 12:49 < Scarian> Kasparov is the greatest!
2008-02-15 12:50 < TheWeasel> Fischer, Capablanca and Rubinstein after that, then perhaps Steinitz
2008-02-15 12:50 < MonteChrist> Deep Blue ;p
2008-02-15 12:50 < TheWeasel> Rybka ftw.
2008-02-15 12:51 < TheWeasel> the greatest players never to have been world champions would be Rubinstein, Bronstein, Marshall and Keres.
2008-02-15 12:51 < MonteChrist> TheWeasel, playing european championships? ;]
2008-02-15 12:51 < gwern> no no Fritz is the greates tof all time
2008-02-15 12:51 < MonteChrist> gwern, there is no greatest man in chess...
2008-02-15 12:51 < MonteChrist> they all are the best...
2008-02-15 12:51 < TheWeasel> and then there are the theoretical greats that were never as good in practical play, like Tarrasch, Reti/Nimzowitsch, Tartakover...
2008-02-15 12:52 < TheWeasel> "not good" being a very relative term here
2008-02-15 12:52 < MonteChrist> "not good" anly can be party or play
2008-02-15 12:52 < MonteChrist> ;-)
2008-02-15 12:52 < TheWeasel> Morphy obviously would be a very tough opponent even now.
2008-02-15 12:53 < Scarian> Rybka would crush Deep Blue.
2008-02-15 12:53 < TheWeasel> heh, she would.
2008-02-15 12:53 * Scarian misses Deep Blue.
2008-02-15 12:53 < slashem> that was rude of them to take it apart
2008-02-15 12:53 * TheWeasel considers getting a copy of Rybka instead
2008-02-15 12:54 < TheWeasel> but as I said, it's a very un-human style that doesn't teach you proper chess
2008-02-15 12:54 < TheWeasel> like Fischer said about Alekhine "his method works for him and nobody else"
2008-02-15 12:54 < gwern> Rybka vs Rybka matches must look very odd
2008-02-15 12:55 < TheWeasel> yea, obviously for fine tuning thousands and thousands of them are played
2008-02-15 12:55 < TheWeasel> machine chess looks odd in general, but is fun
2008-02-15 12:55 < Scarian> gwern: Do you play chess?
2008-02-15 12:55 < MonteChrist> pff
2008-02-15 12:55 < MonteChrist> Rybka is fishy fish ;]
2008-02-15 12:55 < Scarian> And a deep sea one at that...
2008-02-15 12:55 < TheWeasel> Reel Small Fish, as it were.
2008-02-15 12:56 * TheWeasel seriously considers getting Rybka now
2008-02-15 12:56 < TheWeasel> but argh, Fritz 11 is supposed to be 80 elo points better than Fritz 9, AND more patient and positional
2008-02-15 12:56 < TheWeasel> works well for me
2008-02-15 12:56 < TheWeasel> old chess engines are often overagressive so that the board is very empty very soon
2008-02-15 12:56 < gwern> Scarian: I used to, but when I have time these days I play go
2008-02-15 12:57 < bryan^^> ieee
2008-02-15 12:57 < TheWeasel> Go is evil.
2008-02-15 12:57 < TheWeasel> too hard
2008-02-15 12:57 < MonteChrist> Try Reversi
2008-02-15 12:57 < gwern> at least I have a shot at winning against the computers
2008-02-15 12:57 < Demi> i like the idea of go, but have never really had a chance to play it
2008-02-15 12:57 < MessedRocker> bryan, I pronounce IEEE as some shriek
2008-02-15 12:58 * Therapist_Cat cuddles with MessedRocker
2008-02-15 12:58 * TheWeasel tries Jack Of Clubs Pays, which is played with two people alternating drawing cards and whoever gets the Jack of Clubs pays the next round
2008-02-15 12:58 < Demi> i like the leveling system, it seems elegant; and i like the few fundamental rules with many elaborations, it makes chess seem non-abstract
2008-02-15 12:58 < gwern> Demi: as the joke goes, chess was invented, but go was discovered
2008-02-15 12:58 < Demi> actually my game of choice is charades and twenty questions
2008-02-15 12:58 < TheWeasel> Chess is necessarily far less arbitrary than go.
2008-02-15 12:58 < Demi> gwern - i can see that
2008-02-15 12:58 < TheWeasel> *more arbitrary
2008-02-15 12:59 < Demi> i never got into liking chess because it was such my father's domain
2008-02-15 12:59 < gwern> TheWeasel: quite a mistake :)
2008-02-15 12:59 < TheWeasel> Still, I've yet to see a position that is as brilliant as the starting position in chess
2008-02-15 12:59 < TheWeasel> Even though it was thought out when chess was poorly understood, it serves incredibly well
2008-02-15 12:59 < Ceiling_Cat> sweet
2008-02-15 13:00 < MonteChrist> TheWeasel, have you ever tried to play "Dots" ?
2008-02-15 13:00 < Ceiling_Cat> Larry Lessig might be running for congress
2008-02-15 13:00 < TheWeasel> I haven't.
2008-02-15 13:00 < gwern> yes. should be interesting
2008-02-15 13:00 < gwern> he needs to start a pirate party
2008-02-15 13:00 * LOUD_CAT WELCOMES OUR NEW COPYRIGHT-AWARE CONGRESSIONAL OVERLORDS
2008-02-15 13:00 < MonteChrist> TheWeasel, its simillar to "Go"
2008-02-15 13:00 < MonteChrist> but there is no "Dots" league :(
2008-02-15 13:00 < TheWeasel> then I don't like it >.< :-P
2008-02-15 13:01 < MonteChrist> ;p
2008-02-15 13:01 < TheWeasel> Seriously, Go is too big for me.
2008-02-15 13:01 < Demi> Ceiling_Cat - i just heard of the draft campaign, has he assented?
2008-02-15 13:01 < MonteChrist> the idea is not too raound the field
2008-02-15 13:01 * Demi likes scrabble
2008-02-15 13:01 < TheWeasel> I'm not an "opening learner" in chess, but I like guidelines
2008-02-15 13:01 < MonteChrist> but round the other players dots ;)
2008-02-15 13:01 < TheWeasel> Scrabble is brilliant
2008-02-15 13:01 < Demi> but like chess, i got discouraged about it after reading about actual scrabble players
2008-02-15 13:01 < MonteChrist> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Gra_w_kropki_bazy.svg
2008-02-15 13:01 * TheWeasel lets his scrabble engine play solo games and tries to beat 1000 points
2008-02-15 13:02 < TheWeasel> *try
2008-02-15 13:02 < Scarian> TheWeasel: What's your favourite defense as black again 1.e4?
2008-02-15 13:02 < Scarian> ;)
2008-02-15 13:02 < TheWeasel> Actual chess players are worse.
2008-02-15 13:02 < MonteChrist> playing scrabble with CPU engine
2008-02-15 13:02 < MonteChrist> its stupidity
2008-02-15 13:02 < TheWeasel> I used to play Caro-Kann most often.
2008-02-15 13:03 < MonteChrist> and there is no fun
2008-02-15 13:03 < MonteChrist> :/
2008-02-15 13:03 < TheWeasel> Today I'd probably resort to e5 though.
2008-02-15 13:03 < TheWeasel> I haven't gotten a lot of practice lately
2008-02-15 13:03 < Scarian> :-O
2008-02-15 13:03 < Scarian> 1...c5 always
2008-02-15 13:03 < Demi> you and your fancy letter notation
2008-02-15 13:04 < Scarian> Demi: I'll fancy you if you're not careful -.-
2008-02-15 13:04 < TheWeasel> I freely admit that I a) don't understand the Sicilian and b) don't like the positions that arise from the Alapin
2008-02-15 13:04 < TheWeasel> i.e. 2.c3
2008-02-15 13:04 < Scarian> Anti-Sicilian.
2008-02-15 13:04 < Scarian> or is that c4?
2008-02-15 13:04 < TheWeasel> Yea
2008-02-15 13:04 < MessedRocker> racist!
2008-02-15 13:04 * Scarian hasn't played competitive chess in several years.
2008-02-15 13:05 < MessedRocker> botulist!
2008-02-15 13:05 < TheWeasel> At least the 2.c4 in the French is called Anti-French
2008-02-15 13:05 < TheWeasel> see our FA [[Anti-French opening theory in the United States]]
2008-02-15 13:05 * Demi never plays chess with a sicilian when his life is on the line
2008-02-15 13:05 < Demi> i think you mean the Freedom Defense
2008-02-15 13:05 < TheWeasel> Demi: There's always the Kalashnikov variation
2008-02-15 13:05 * Scarian should totally organise a tournament over IRC...
2008-02-15 13:06 < TheWeasel> (in earlier times called the Lowenthal Variation)
2008-02-15 13:06 < TheWeasel> Yea, Freedom Defence it is.
2008-02-15 13:06 < Scarian> Smoke time.
2008-02-15 13:07 * TheWeasel is reminded of a dictum by William Steinitz
2008-02-15 13:07 < TheWeasel> "I have never in my life played the French Defence, for it is the dullest of all the openings."
2008-02-15 13:07 < TheWeasel> Take that, France.
2008-02-15 13:08 < MessedRocker> the French defense consists of surrendering to the other side
2008-02-15 13:08 < MonteChrist> TheWeasel, probably french defense is somekind of sexual activity to make yout opponent confused
2008-02-15 13:09 < TheWeasel> MonteChrist: It does end in interesting mating patterns.
2008-02-15 13:09 < NotASpy> ah, that's like the lovely comment some chap from the White House came out with, going to war without the French is like going hunting without an accordion, all you do is leave behind noisy baggage.
2008-02-15 13:10 < Demi> i think it's telling that all our put-downs of the french in the u.s. are really dated
2008-02-15 13:10 < TheWeasel> The French is a slow but sturdy defence.
2008-02-15 13:11 < TheWeasel> Computers typically don't understand it and do badly with it, humans typically have an easier time
2008-02-15 13:11 < Demi> TheWeasel - it's easily countered by a quick rush of heavy pieces through Belgium. I mean the queen side.
2008-02-15 13:11 < TheWeasel> no, the kingside, the right wing.