freenode #wikipedia

2008-02-12 16:19 < Starnestommy> just remember to make sure there's nothing before the /
2008-02-12 16:19 < J-stan> ok
2008-02-12 16:19 < J-stan> well, that's all, thanks for your help
2008-02-12 16:20 < _Certh_4> Dp67: what's typical price for realty in your area?
2008-02-12 16:20 < _Certh_4> Dp67: per sq meter?
2008-02-12 16:22 < Dp67> I don't have the slightest idea. but there is no way its anywhere near that.
2008-02-12 16:22 < Demi> that's not really the way real estate is priced
2008-02-12 16:22 < Demi> and if you're talking about a condo, especially not
2008-02-12 16:22 < Dp67> I could probably buy at least a few acres of land for that.
2008-02-12 16:23 < Ral315> Considering that the typical prison cell is six feet by twelve feet (about 2 meters by 4 meters), that's saying that a flat the size of a prison cell is over $250,000.
2008-02-12 16:23 < Ral315> That sounds like a bad deal to me :)
2008-02-12 16:24 < _Certh_4> Dp67: i dont say about land, i say about city apartments
2008-02-12 16:24 * Lubaf wonders if [[Taylor Mead's Ass]] is suitable for [[WP:UA]].
2008-02-12 16:24 < Sfan00> Ral315: Actually 250,000 rent on a cell doesn;t sound unreasonable
2008-02-12 16:24 < Sfan00> ;)
2008-02-12 16:24 < Sfan00> What does the govt pay on prison space?
2008-02-12 16:25 < Demi> you're talking to a population of people who is very unlikely to know anything about million-dollar condominiums in any city
2008-02-12 16:25 < Dp67> talk to a realtor thats your best bet or surf the realty sites and look what your local market has for a range.
2008-02-12 16:26 < _Certh_4> Ral315: well i am going to sell 10 sq meters room for 120 thousand dollars and there are many people who wants to buy but i think is not the price too much low?
2008-02-12 16:26 < slashem> this is an exceedingly dumb conversation
2008-02-12 16:26 < Demi> yes
2008-02-12 16:26 < slashem> real estate prices between diferent markets is apples and oranges
2008-02-12 16:27 < Sfan00> Certh_4: You need to speak to real-estate agent
2008-02-12 16:27 < Sfan00> It's very market depedent
2008-02-12 16:27 < Sfan00> *dependent
2008-02-12 16:27 < Demi> Sfan00 - people who are in a position to sell real estate already know this, _Certh_4 is not for real
2008-02-12 16:27 < Demi> it's like someone coming onto the channel and saying they have several million dollars to invest, can anyone recommnd some mutual funds
2008-02-12 16:27 < Sfan00> Oh
2008-02-12 16:28 < _Certh_4> Demi: no
2008-02-12 16:28 < Sfan00> If you have more than a million you dont use mutal funds :)
2008-02-12 16:28 < Sfan00> You start a religon :)
2008-02-12 16:28 < slashem> actually not true, you may use them as part of a balanced portfolio
2008-02-12 16:28 < Millionaire> Hello, I have several million dollars to invest
2008-02-12 16:28 < slashem> nah, you would start a religion if you need more than a million
2008-02-12 16:28 < Millionaire> Can anyone recommend any mutual funds for me to select?
2008-02-12 16:29 * slashem coughs *troll*
2008-02-12 16:29 < _Certh_4> Demi: in fact i am trying to realise is it cheap or expensive according the world market price level
2008-02-12 16:29 < Demi> you might or might not, but the idea of being ignorant of the process to the extent that you would ask on #wikipedia, well the chances of that are vanishingly small
2008-02-12 16:29 * Demi gives slashem some anti-troll cough drops
2008-02-12 16:29 < Demi> they're made in sweden
2008-02-12 16:29 < Sfan00> _Certh_4; there is no such thing as a world market price level
2008-02-12 16:29 * slashem yodels
2008-02-12 16:29 < Sfan00> markest are regional for thigns like poperty
2008-02-12 16:30 < slashem> or was that switzerland?
2008-02-12 16:30 < Sfan00> Yodelling is Switzerland
2008-02-12 16:30 < Sfan00> Sweden is Saunsa
2008-02-12 16:30 < Sfan00> *suanas
2008-02-12 16:30 < Sfan00> ;)
2008-02-12 16:30 < _Certh_4> Sfan00: i heared that appartments in Burj Dubai are cheaper.
2008-02-12 16:30 < slashem> you _are_ having problems typing today!
2008-02-12 16:31 < _Certh_4> Sfan00: than my small room in shared flat
2008-02-12 16:31 < Sfan00> slashem: I've been ill
2008-02-12 16:31 < Sfan00> :(
2008-02-12 16:31 < slashem> me too -- I have this persistent cough
2008-02-12 16:31 < Sfan00> I've still got sum problems :(
2008-02-12 16:33 < _Certh_4> well peps what about salary? lets compare
2008-02-12 16:34 < slashem> are peps like pez?
2008-02-12 16:34 < slashem> 'cuz I love pez
2008-02-12 16:34 < _Certh_4> slashem: well i meant guys
2008-02-12 16:34 < Sfan00> _Certh_4: ##Finance is a good channelt oa ask on financial stuff
2008-02-12 16:34 < Sfan00> _Certh4: Sexisst
2008-02-12 16:34 < slashem> girls don't get to chat?
2008-02-12 16:34 < Sfan00> Women come here too
2008-02-12 16:35 < Sfan00> :)
2008-02-12 16:35 < slashem> youi know I'm a girl right?
2008-02-12 16:35 < slashem> and I'm thirteen
2008-02-12 16:35 < slashem> what city do you live in?
2008-02-12 16:35 < Sfan00> !chanop
2008-02-12 16:35 < _Certh_4> slashem: sorry but it's very good that you're a girl. i just wanted to compare the women's salary
2008-02-12 16:35 < cctoide> I hate articles like [[Stash]]
2008-02-12 16:36 < slashem> Sfan00 is that for me?
2008-02-12 16:36 < Sfan00> Women should get paid the same as blokes :)
2008-02-12 16:36 < eth01> they normally do.
2008-02-12 16:36 < Ral315> Sfan00: You rang?
2008-02-12 16:36 < Sfan00> slashem: The chanop was because I was concerend about where your line of conversation about your age was going
2008-02-12 16:37 < slashem> actually, I am getting really bored of another certain line of conversation
2008-02-12 16:37 < slashem> so I thought I'd mix it up
2008-02-12 16:37 < Sfan00> Ral315: See Slashem's comment above
2008-02-12 16:37 < _Certh_4> Sfan00: well a girl sitting just next to me in my office is paid 5500 dollars/month. is is good money in your location?
2008-02-12 16:37 < Ral315> Noted.
2008-02-12 16:37 < Sfan00> I was told you don't give out infromation like that on public IRC
2008-02-12 16:37 < Sfan00> 5000 a month sounds good
2008-02-12 16:38 < slashem> I would like to suggest that repeated attempts to talk about comparing real estate prices and pay scales worldwide are not appropriate for this channel
2008-02-12 16:38 < slashem> I think that was the point I was trying to make, indirectly
2008-02-12 16:38 < ggreer> _Certh_4: is that before or after taxes?
2008-02-12 16:38 < _Certh_4> ggreer: after
2008-02-12 16:38 < eth01> i don't even have a salary, it fluctuates.
2008-02-12 16:38 * Messedrocker hums tetris b-type music
2008-02-12 16:38 < eth01> set salary
2008-02-12 16:39 < _Certh_4> ggreer: she is novice in our firm. she works only a few days
2008-02-12 16:39 < Sfan00> eth01; You paid wage or do you work on contract payments?
2008-02-12 16:39 < Dp67> well were all poor trailer trash here you might as well leave..
2008-02-12 16:39 < eth01> Sfan00, i'm on a contract :)
2008-02-12 16:39 < ggreer> real estate agents are pretty lame. they don't actually create anything
2008-02-12 16:39 < Sfan00> ggreer: You could say that a lot about a lot of service sector jobs
2008-02-12 16:39 < ggreer> Sfan00: yes, I could
2008-02-12 16:39 < ggreer> and I do
2008-02-12 16:39 < Sfan00> But they are still nessacry in a diversified economy
2008-02-12 16:40 < Demi> 5000 a month is great for a migrant worker, not so good for a CEO
2008-02-12 16:40 < _Certh_4> ggreer: she is not a real estate agent. she is a lawer
2008-02-12 16:40 < Sfan00> 66,000 a year seems low for a lawyer
2008-02-12 16:40 < Demi> ggreer - it's better with agents than with places that require lawyers, anyway; a good real estate agent can be a real asset, but mostly they're parasites
2008-02-12 16:41 < ggreer> _Certh_4: even worse. pro se litigation ftw
2008-02-12 16:41 < Demi> the buyers of my last house were really well-served by their agent, if i was buying in the same area i would definitely get her
2008-02-12 16:41 < TheLetterE> If anyone's curious, I'm doing a topic change; won't be a few minutes. Don't mind me :)
2008-02-12 16:42 < _Certh_4> ggreer: she is a law consultant.
2008-02-12 16:42 < _Certh_4> ggreer: for our firm
2008-02-12 16:42 < TheLetterE> good morning Zero1328
2008-02-12 16:42 < zero1328> g'morning
2008-02-12 16:43 < TheLetterE> Hows things?
2008-02-12 16:43 < zero1328> it's alright I guess, you?
2008-02-12 16:43 < TheLetterE> yeah doing good ;P
2008-02-12 16:44 < ggreer> lawyers are a symptom of our insanely complicated legal system
2008-02-12 16:45 < Aqwis> no, they are the cause ;)
2008-02-12 16:45 < ggreer> well, yeah, after they become judges
2008-02-12 16:46 < _Certh_4> ggreer: well i am saying about Europe
2008-02-12 16:46 < Dp67> laws are made by lawyers for three reasons: 1) Justify their existance 2) padd the pockets of their lawyer buddies 3) provide income insurance in case they don't get elected again.
2008-02-12 16:46 < ggreer> _Certh_4: western countries have similar legal systems, although the US is more sue-heavy
2008-02-12 16:46 < bumm13> "The Bush administration has instructed U.S. diplomats abroad to defend its decision to seek the death penalty for six Guantanamo Bay detainees accused in the Sept. 11 terror attacks by recalling the executions of Nazi war criminals after World War II." <--- that's sickening
2008-02-12 16:46 < Sfan00> :O
2008-02-12 16:47 < Ral315> Dear lord.
2008-02-12 16:47 < ggreer> godwin's up in this international incident
2008-02-12 16:47 < Sfan00> How dare justify Milatry Tribuansl by comparing them to Nuermburg
2008-02-12 16:47 < bumm13> let's not bring up Prescott Bush or anything ;p
2008-02-12 16:47 < ggreer> on the bright side bush will be gone in less than a year
2008-02-12 16:47 < Ral315> Six detainees who at most provided some training for terrorists, versus people who personally authorized the murders of millions.
2008-02-12 16:47 < Ral315> I can see the similarities, can't you?
2008-02-12 16:47 < Sfan00> After all arent the tribuanals buch proposes ' Only obeying orders'?
2008-02-12 16:48 < bumm13> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080212/ap_on_go_pr_wh/sept_11_trials_nazis
2008-02-12 16:48 < Sfan00> Ral315: You know it could backfire
2008-02-12 16:48 < Sfan00> those comments
2008-02-12 16:48 * Arwen is listening to Captain Planet Opening Theme by Phil Collins on Captain Planet [Amarok]
2008-02-12 16:48 < Sfan00> After all, Hitler persued an agressive war of agression
2008-02-12 16:48 < Sfan00> The Nazis, sought to eleminate certain rights in the interests of security
2008-02-12 16:49 < Ral315> I don't think it's on anywhere the scale that the Nazis did, but I certainly see the similarities.
2008-02-12 16:49 < Demi> in retrospect, it probably didn't gain anyone much to execute them
2008-02-12 16:49 < Sfan00> The Nazi's persused a hate campagin against certain groups, like homosexuas
2008-02-12 16:49 < Dp67> and jews
2008-02-12 16:49 < Ral315> They're certainly not intentional, but the current administration has shown a hunger for power.
2008-02-12 16:49 < Sfan00> Demi; They are suspected Islamic terrorists, Do you really want MArtyrs?
2008-02-12 16:50 < Demi> Sfan00 - no, but what i'm saying is that (like most of the time when you execute people) it's not worth the trouble; now, or at nuremburg
2008-02-12 16:50 < Demi> it's especially not worth the trouble on an international stage
2008-02-12 16:50 < bumm13> most of the highest-ranking Nazi officials were smuggled out of Germany
2008-02-12 16:51 < Sfan00> There is also historicla eveidence that the Nazi regime 'needed' the Reichstag fire as justifcation to persue action against subversive groups
2008-02-12 16:51 < Demi> something like the holocaust, you can probably always learn or document more, even if they're lies, so it's probably best to leave what perpetrators you have alive
2008-02-12 16:51 < ggreer> Demi: eh, I think most people can agree that the leaders of the nazis deserved to die
2008-02-12 16:51 < Demi> ggreer - oh absolutely
2008-02-12 16:51 < Sfan00> Demi: The Holocaust happened, FACT
2008-02-12 16:51 < Demi> my point is what's useful
2008-02-12 16:52 * gwern denies the Holocaust three times
2008-02-12 16:52 < ggreer> I think vengeance outweighs any information you can get from them
2008-02-12 16:52 * Sfan00 reports gwern to the authorities
2008-02-12 16:52 < Demi> Sfan00 - well, think of the nazis bumm13 is talking about, if you can get ever one more of them, isn't that worth leaving a possible informer alive
2008-02-12 16:52 < gwern> Sfan00: this is madness!
2008-02-12 16:52 < The359> what Holocaust?
2008-02-12 16:53 < Demi> ggreer - the scale is really beyond any normal discussion of deterrence or vengeance
2008-02-12 16:53 < gwern> Demi: holocausts happen too often to not be in normal discussion
2008-02-12 16:53 < Demi> gwern - i see; and you think they happen less frequently because the perpetrators are afraid they'll be hanged by international authorities as at nuremburg?
2008-02-12 16:54 < Ral315> The Nuremberg trials, I think, were more to show that the world took the Holocaust seriously, even though many didn't believe it was happening when it was happening.
2008-02-12 16:54 < ggreer> Demi: it's not about deterrence, it's about revenge
2008-02-12 16:54 < gwern> Demi: no, I think that something needs to be done. nuremberg wasn't too bad a start, and it was a good precedent that 'following orders' wasn't a useful defense
2008-02-12 16:55 < Demi> gwern - you seem to have confused my "executing them was more trouble than it was worth" with "we shouldn't have tried anyone for war crimes and atrocities during the holocaust"
2008-02-12 16:55 < slashem> well, there have been other genocides without nuremberg-type trials
2008-02-12 16:55 < slashem> the fact that Germany lost WWII probably had something to do with it
2008-02-12 16:57 < gwern> now, if we could somehow get global approval for simply assassinating leaders complicit in/leader genocides, *then* we might have a preventive solution
2008-02-12 16:57 < ggreer> yeah, kind of like the policy of not negotiating with terrorists
2008-02-12 16:57 < slashem> who will watch the watchers?
2008-02-12 16:57 < Ral315> gwern: That's a dangerous precedent, and requires the stabilization of a country. Think about Iraq.
2008-02-12 16:58 < Demi> something like the holocaust doesn't have a single architect
2008-02-12 16:58 < Ral315> Assuming Iraq does become stable, it cost trillions of dollars and years of time to do so -- just to take out one administration.
2008-02-12 16:58 < gwern> slashem: well, the idea is that if they are assassinating the right people, then the people angry about the assassination will be much fewer than the ones happy
2008-02-12 16:58 < ggreer> Ral315: you could just skip the invasion part and do the bombing
2008-02-12 16:58 * Demi kills baby hitler, though, just to try it
2008-02-12 16:58 < Ral315> True, but eventually you'll need to step in and restore order, I think.
2008-02-12 16:58 < gwern> Ral315: sure, but iraq isn't an example of this - we didn't assassinate Hussein, sit back for a while, and then go 'oh shit' and invade
2008-02-12 16:59 < ggreer> oh, right, if you wanted to get anything accomplished
2008-02-12 16:59 < Ral315> No, not at all.
2008-02-12 16:59 < slashem> gwern: hmm, it seems to me genocides are all about making the majority happy at the expense of making the fewer angry (or dead)
2008-02-12 17:00 < gwern> slashem: even if that's generally true, the majority of the majority may not care all that much. I'm sure the average german was more like 'eh, it'd be nice if there weren't any more dirty jews to bother me' than 'I WILL GIVE MY LIFE MEINFUHRER'
2008-02-12 17:01 < Demi> slashem - on this channel, we were talking about which countries or regions were "better" (as if on an absolute scale). I suggested that there is no such absolute standard, that it's always at least a question of "better for whom." mavhch suggested that an objective criterion would be "better for more people". To me that line of reasoning implies it would be okay to kill 10% of the population so that the rest could live in unending health and luxury.
2008-02-12 17:01 < ggreer> Demi: harvest organs from one person to save 10 others
2008-02-12 17:01 < ggreer> utilitarianism ftl
2008-02-12 17:01 < Demi> there you go
2008-02-12 17:02 < gwern> ggreer: I'm sure the 10 people you killed would disagree
2008-02-12 17:02 < slashem> I have heard a lot of Germans were thinking "yes, the jews are getting a bad deal, but Hitler is doing a lot of good for the country"
2008-02-12 17:02 < Ral315> It's hard to say what motivated the Jewish people. A lot of it may very well have been that the economy was booming.
2008-02-12 17:02 < Demi> (and even The Mavhc Test has the weakness that it still requires you to rate relative "better")
2008-02-12 17:02 < ggreer> gwern: screw the other 10, they're probably old and didn't take care of their bodies
2008-02-12 17:02 < slashem> Demi: you are treading on morally dangerous ground
2008-02-12 17:02 < gwern> ggreer: lol
2008-02-12 17:02 < slashem> there are arguments on both sides
2008-02-12 17:02 < gwern> 'save the healthy - the others are lazy slobs who deserve death'!
2008-02-12 17:02 < Ral315> It's not hard to ignore "minor quibbles", however immoral they may be, if you were a destitute nation ten years before, and now are a world power with relative wealth.
2008-02-12 17:03 < Demi> that's we have hierarchies of human rights, and the notion of human rights to begin with
2008-02-12 17:03 < slashem> better doesn't have a real definition between socieities
2008-02-12 17:03 < ggreer> gwern: that's called health insurance
2008-02-12 17:03 < slashem> although power does
2008-02-12 17:03 < Demi> well, germany needed to be "made strong" because of the communist threat
2008-02-12 17:03 < slashem> the notion of human rights is a western one, and an american one, and a lot of countries like China don't agree that human rights are "better"
2008-02-12 17:04 < NotACow> HUMANS HAVE NO RIGHTS EXCEPT TO BE EATEN
2008-02-12 17:04 < slashem> China first and formost is trying to prevent the country from falling into chaos
2008-02-12 17:04 < deviljelly> Hi, I need (would like to) write a wikipedia article.... where is the best place to start?
2008-02-12 17:04 < gwern> ironic how their increasing their strength led to the communists invading eh?
2008-02-12 17:04 < NotACow> deviljelly: first, shoot yourself in the head.
2008-02-12 17:04 < gwern> NotACow: even if they taste horrible?
2008-02-12 17:04 < Ral315> deviljelly: You can learn the editing tools at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sandbox
2008-02-12 17:04 < slashem> deviljelly: you can jump right in and write whatever you like -- maybe someone will notice and give you some hel
2008-02-12 17:04 < gwern> NotACow: oh, you inveterate jokester!
2008-02-12 17:04 < slashem> help
2008-02-12 17:04 < Demi> slashem - too bad; sometimes other cultures just suck.
2008-02-12 17:04 < slashem> NotACow: resident cynic
2008-02-12 17:04 < NotACow> slashem: "hell" is more likely.
2008-02-12 17:05 < slashem> yeah I realized that was an unfortunate typo
2008-02-12 17:05 < NotACow> slashem: unfortunate, but perhaps more accurate.
2008-02-12 17:05 < Ral315> For general help on writing articles, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Contents
2008-02-12 17:05 < slashem> I think there is a pretty good argument that "basic" human rights don't make much sense when people are starving and looting
2008-02-12 17:06 < gwern> I think there is a pretty good argument that human rights are just convenient codifications of rule-based utilitarianism, itself a useful approximation to the uncomputable ideal
2008-02-12 17:06 < slashem> NotACow: I am also disillusioned with Wikipedia, but that just means I personally am not going to improve it, not that I am going to discourage others from spending their time improving it
2008-02-12 17:06 < Demi> slashem - that's why some are more important than others
2008-02-12 17:06 < NotACow> all the articles worth writing have been written already anyway
2008-02-12 17:06 < NotACow> mst o them need to be rewritten, but the people who wrote them are in love with their own work and won't let you
2008-02-12 17:07 < NotACow> slashem: i'm not going to encourage someone to waste their time on fruitless ventures.
2008-02-12 17:07 < slashem> Demi: well, the Chinese are saying stability is more important than freedom of speech, for instance
2008-02-12 17:07 < NotACow> slashem: and there's more fun to be had playing video games, to be honest.
2008-02-12 17:07 < NotACow> slashem: or trolling on the internet :)
2008-02-12 17:07 < slashem> I'm not saying that I agree with them, but there are certain arguments that can be made
2008-02-12 17:07 < Demi> slashem - the problem there is that they don't mean that (stability), they mean preserving our power
2008-02-12 17:07 < slashem> NotACow: hey, I actually benefit when other people spend their time improving wikipedia, so I'm ok with that
2008-02-12 17:08 < slashem> Demi: the two are not mutually exclusive
2008-02-12 17:08 < gwern> slashem: their governments would say that, of course. any government that didn't hew that line would quickly be broken up. china is an artificial enormous entity only maintained over the millennia by near constant warfare
2008-02-12 17:08 < slashem> you aren't going to find any US President sacrificing his own power to improve the country either
2008-02-12 17:08 < Demi> slashem - it's the difference between a reason and a rationalization, which to me is all the difference
2008-02-12 17:09 < slashem> gwern: I really don't agree with that. China has a shared cultural history unlike that of Russia, for instance
2008-02-12 17:09 < Demi> slashem - well, i don't think i related the Presidency to human rights :) But then, there are mechanisms to both limit the President's power, prevent it from growing indefinitely and remove it
2008-02-12 17:09 < slashem> Demi: there is far less of a difference between reason and rationalization, in my view, than you seem to believe
2008-02-12 17:09 < bumm13> those mechanisms are rusty and need some maintenance ;p
2008-02-12 17:09 < NotASpy> I don't know, I rather like China, some (most) of the people in power actually care about the population and not their own wealth, there's ample opportunities to get rich in China and it's not exactly backwards, they love Western cars, British style houses and so on.
2008-02-12 17:10 < gwern> slashem: look at the historical charts. and what's going on with tibet and the Uighur's province. if there's a shared cultural history, its that of the ethnic han mercilessly colonizing and taking over the non-han areas
2008-02-12 17:10 < Demi> bumm13 - yes; but consider what someone like Bush would actually *want* to do, compared with what he's been able to do, and I'm glad we at least have some
2008-02-12 17:10 < bumm13> uh, much of China *is* backwards
2008-02-12 17:10 < gwern> slashem: I mean, just look at the language(s)!
2008-02-12 17:10 < deviljelly> NotACaw: hmmmm.... is that a pre-req to be an editor?
2008-02-12 17:10 < bumm13> Demi: sure
2008-02-12 17:10 < deviljelly> Ral315: thanks.... going to that link now
2008-02-12 17:11 < bumm13> and China will never have the same "average" standard of living as the U.S. without major changes in how things are done there
2008-02-12 17:11 < slashem> gwern: I'm sorry, I thought it was accepted that most of the languages of China descended from the same parent?
2008-02-12 17:11 < slashem> gwern: tibet is a special case
2008-02-12 17:11 < bumm13> (environmental issues come to mind)
2008-02-12 17:11 < NotASpy> bumm13: yes, indeed, and it'll be 50 years or more before they've got USA levels of mechanisation in farming everywhere, but they're making a real effort to improve the peasent farmers lives, some of the schemes are crap and do more harm than good, but they'll get there.
2008-02-12 17:11 < gwern> if china has a shared cultural history (a big big if), it's in the same way the US does - viz the European descendants and the many Amerindians
2008-02-12 17:12 < slashem> gwern: I don't really know where you are getting this opinion from
2008-02-12 17:12 < gwern> slashem: sure. most languages on the same continent descend from same parents
2008-02-12 17:12 < deviljelly> slashem: thanks.... I assume you'll all guide me well
2008-02-12 17:12 < slashem> gwern: I think proto-chinese is a lot more recent than proto-indo-european
2008-02-12 17:12 < NotASpy> maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that in China, everybody feels they need to contribute to the state, whereas in Russia and other communist states, people feel the state should provide for them.
2008-02-12 17:12 < slashem> deviljelly: if you have specific questions, I will try to answer them
2008-02-12 17:13 < Aqwis2> russia is a communist state? =/
2008-02-12 17:13 < NotASpy> oops. Putin will be aiming missiles at me next.
2008-02-12 17:13 < Aqwis2> :>
2008-02-12 17:13 < slashem> now, I grant that I may just be swallowing the propaganda that my parents told me, but I thought most people agreed that China has had a relatively peaceful past compared to western empires
2008-02-12 17:13 < bumm13> NotASpy: I think the main of Chinese people is doing what they need to do to survive (and possibly embetter their lives, if possible)
2008-02-12 17:14 < gwern> slashem: it all depends on what periods you look at. The An Lu-Shan rebellion is *still* one of the world periods with the greatest death tolls
2008-02-12 17:14 < bumm13> *main goals
2008-02-12 17:14 < bumm13> (yikes, redundancy)
2008-02-12 17:14 < deviljelly> slashem: I go write and ask you to check.... thanks...
2008-02-12 17:15 < gwern> 'The rebellion spanned the reigns of three emperors, starting during the reign of Xuanzong and ending during the reign of Daizong. The toll of dead and missing, including those caused by suppression and famine, is estimated at up to 36 million (sources), which would be 2/3 of the total taxroll population at the time. Numerically, this was the highest toll for any event for nearly 1200 years, until World War II surpassed it with over 62 million deaths.'
2008-02-12 17:15 < slashem> gwern: sorry, I'm not seeing the cultural basis of the conflict here, which is what I thought we were talking about
2008-02-12 17:16 < slashem> this appears to be a naked grab for power by a general already entrenched in the power structure taking advantage of popular discontent with the emperor
2008-02-12 17:16 < gwern> slashem: note Lushan's ethnicity
2008-02-12 17:16 < slashem> I did
2008-02-12 17:16 < NotASpy> bumm13: yeah, I'd agree with that, the average subsistence farmer wants to improve their lives, perhaps buy a tractor or some other machine for their farm.
2008-02-12 17:16 < Rinn> Naked grabs!
2008-02-12 17:16 < kibble> O_O
2008-02-12 17:16 < bumm13> Rinn: heh
2008-02-12 17:16 < slashem> and were his followers turkic? I don't think so
2008-02-12 17:18 < gwern> all empires which expand way past any set of natural borders will naturall engage in frequent warefare and internal repression to keep themselves from flying apart; China has that problem just as others do. if you can't see this simple observation throughout China's history and expansion even to modern-day incidents like the Uighur unrest and Tibet, I'm not sure what else I can sya
2008-02-12 17:18 < slashem> anyway, I am aware that history is written by the victors, so the popular account of china's "peaceful" past may be propaganda, but I just don't see where you are getting your opinion from
2008-02-12 17:18 < slashem> no one has ever claimed China expanded past its natural borders
2008-02-12 17:18 < slashem> again, Tibet is an exception
2008-02-12 17:19 < gwern> no, tibet is just a modern example
2008-02-12 17:19 < gwern> there are plenty of areas that have different ethnicities until they were finally absorbed
2008-02-12 17:19 < slashem> the fact is that China exists on a vast plain between two rivers and there are no natural borders to the Chinese state, which is often given as a reason China had such long periods of stability compared to European history
2008-02-12 17:19 < slashem> I mean, really, where are you getting this opinion from?
2008-02-12 17:19 < slashem> I just have never heard it before
2008-02-12 17:21 < gwern> lots of reading about Mongolian tribes and my own interest in Chinese history and literature. I don't think it's hard to put together if you're basically educated, and so I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest this stuff. empires agglomerate. they engage in internal repression and colonization. and so on. trite observations often enough applied in other contexts
2008-02-12 17:21 < Radly> Barack Obama voted FOR the Patriot Act, more funding for America's aggression in Iraq, and every increased spending measure he could get his lying articulate hands on. Hmmm lets add some more contradictions and exposed lies...... In the NH debate, he called for going into Pakistan. In many speaches he has advocated going into Africa for peacekeeping. (Sounds like that would be worse than Vietnam!)
2008-02-12 17:22 < Radly> Oh yeah!!! THAT WILL REALLY HEAL AMERICA. Keep on believing it Obamatards. You all will be sorry, as Barack Hussein Obama is no better than Clinton or Edwards.
2008-02-12 17:22 < The359> Are you spamming, Radly?
2008-02-12 17:22 < Pilotguy> DEATH TO POLITICS!
2008-02-12 17:22 < TroubleClef> Barack Hussein Obama! I like that one.
2008-02-12 17:22 < zero1328> I wonder whatever happened to that Mike Gravel guy..
2008-02-12 17:22 < The359> erm, wait, going into Africa would be worst than Vietnam?
2008-02-12 17:23 < The359> Haven't we been in Africa before in the past decade?
2008-02-12 17:23 < slashem> certainly there was a period when the Han came into China and displaced the peoples already living there, but we are talking several thousand years ago, not anything as recent as the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries during European colonization
2008-02-12 17:23 * Pilotguy sets Radly on fire
2008-02-12 17:23 < gwern> slashem: when did expansion stop, exactly?
2008-02-12 17:23 < slashem> I mean, if anything, the lack of natural borders made China the _target_ of invasion, as by those mogol tribes you are talking about
2008-02-12 17:23 < gwern> feel free to not include tibet btw, since it's apparently a total exception
2008-02-12 17:23 * brown_cat_nap shaves JordanC
2008-02-12 17:23 < The359> Radly, I hope you know quite a good portion of the people in this room aren't even American
2008-02-12 17:24 < JordanC> O_o
2008-02-12 17:24 < JordanC> Yay?
2008-02-12 17:24 * brown_cat_nap shaves *all* of JordanC
2008-02-12 17:24 < zero1328> hrmm.. :/ Apparently he just faded away due to lack of media coverage
2008-02-12 17:24 < slashem> so your claim is that china steadily expanded for thousands of years? I don't think you have any evidence for that
2008-02-12 17:24 < JordanC> Bad cat
2008-02-12 17:24 * TroubleClef collects and sells the hair
2008-02-12 17:24 < slashem> basically the himalayas were a natural border
2008-02-12 17:24 < slashem> and the ocean to the east
2008-02-12 17:24 < gwern> they tried japan. twice
2008-02-12 17:25 < slashem> north were those vast plains without a stable border, hence the great wall
2008-02-12 17:25 < gwern> and chinese-korean history is intricate enough I haven't even bothered
2008-02-12 17:25 < slashem> the present day China is pretty content with maintaining the borders it has, although again the tibet question is kind of expansionist
2008-02-12 17:25 < gwern> and then there's the exfiltration of han south...
2008-02-12 17:25 < slashem> It is nothing like the "manifest destiny" in american history
2008-02-12 17:26 < TroubleClef> Aww, klined already?
2008-02-12 17:26 < ggreer> was obama a senator when the patriot act came around?
2008-02-12 17:26 < slashem> what exactly is an exfiltration?
2008-02-12 17:26 < gwern> slashem: well, present-day china is more occupied with a sort of American-style imperialism with trying to get a sort of munroe doctrine going
2008-02-12 17:26 < TroubleClef> It's like an infiltration except backwards.
2008-02-12 17:26 < slashem> you know, I just have no idea where you are getting this from
2008-02-12 17:27 < slashem> there is no useful comparision to be made between chinese history and american history
2008-02-12 17:27 < slashem> that is just ridiculous
2008-02-12 17:27 < The359> no ggreer
2008-02-12 17:27 < ggreer> that's what I thought
2008-02-12 17:27 < The359> He was elected to the Senate in 2005
2008-02-12 17:27 < TroubleClef> Chinese history had people in it and so did American history!
2008-02-12 17:27 < Demi> Americans do respect the great General Tso, and his delicious chicken, however.
2008-02-12 17:27 < gwern> by which I mean they're concentrated on foreign aid & development, and not so much the european way which always strucke me as more focussed on conquest and direct control
2008-02-12 17:27 < The359> He was in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004
2008-02-12 17:27 < ggreer> so the radley thing was part manipulation, part outright lie
2008-02-12 17:27 < slashem> munroe doctrine was about ejecting european powers from the entire western hemisphere
2008-02-12 17:27 < gwern> slashem: yes, and economic control.
2008-02-12 17:27 < Pilotguy> moo
2008-02-12 17:27 < Pilotguy> China sucks
2008-02-12 17:28 < Demi> ggreer - he voted to renew it, however
2008-02-12 17:28 < gwern> ask the south americans - the giant of the north was always meddling for its economic advantage
2008-02-12 17:28 < shimgray> gwern: only because you came late to the imperialism party...
2008-02-12 17:28 < gwern> stuff like Panama and Hawaii are interesting precisely because of how overt the military component was
2008-02-12 17:28 < slashem> I'm not saying I'm some kind of China expert, but I do have an interest, and your arguments are totally coming out of left field here
2008-02-12 17:28 < yao_ziyuan> I think some concepts in Linux development can apply to Wikipedia. Wikipedia can be developed in terms of packages, and there can be multiple "distros" each based on one or more "upstream" ones.
2008-02-12 17:28 < TroubleClef> Perfect timing, Yao!
2008-02-12 17:28 < gwern> shimgray: hey, it made our corporations like United Fruit very wealthy! don't knock it
2008-02-12 17:29 < shimgray> (the US did have a spate of conventional imperialism - note the Spanish-American war and the snapping up of the colonies - but pretty much all the good bits were taken by then, so you had to take a different tack)
2008-02-12 17:29 < Aqwis2> yao_ziyuan, not your crazy ideas again =|
2008-02-12 17:29 < yao_ziyuan> Aqwis2: this one not
2008-02-12 17:29 < TroubleClef> I like his crazy ideas.
2008-02-12 17:29 < Demi> shimgray - snapping up of which colonies?
2008-02-12 17:29 < gwern> shimgray: hey, yeah - like the phillipine's rebellion. I woner whether future historians will lump the phillipines, vietnam, and iraq all into one group?
2008-02-12 17:29 < shimgray> the Phillipines, Puerto Rico...
2008-02-12 17:29 * JohnReaves operates a anarchist zine distro out of his living room
2008-02-12 17:30 < ggreer> gwern: the age of american... I don't know what to call it
2008-02-12 17:30 < Demi> oh, yes
2008-02-12 17:30 < yao_ziyuan> One Wikipedia alone is monopoly. The original Wikipedia can play a role analogous to the Linux kernel.
2008-02-12 17:30 < ggreer> ... awesomeness?
2008-02-12 17:30 < ggreer> (I kid, I kid)
2008-02-12 17:30 < Aqwis2> yao_ziyuan, ..veropedia?
2008-02-12 17:30 < gwern> debian
2008-02-12 17:30 < gwern> veropedia could be debian
2008-02-12 17:30 < Pilotguy> gwern- snort.
2008-02-12 17:30 < The359> There's only one Wikipedia?
2008-02-12 17:30 < shimgray> Liberia was a bit of a special case, I suppose. And you bought the Virgin Islands.
2008-02-12 17:31 < gwern> what the heck was up with liberia anyway? we sent a bunch of our slaves back or something?
2008-02-12 17:31 * gwern never quite got that
2008-02-12 17:31 < Demi> shimgray - we're always on the lookout for virgins
2008-02-12 17:31 < shimgray> gwern: Yes.
2008-02-12 17:31 < Demi> gwern - that was the idea, yes
2008-02-12 17:32 < shimgray> It was an interesting attempt at enlightened thinking by people who were opposed to slavery but also opposed to the idea of equality
2008-02-12 17:32 < The359> yes gwern
2008-02-12 17:32 < The359> And let them have their own country
2008-02-12 17:32 < shimgray> (Lincoln was big on that sort of thing, for example)
2008-02-12 17:32 * gwern wonders how the native - er, native-er Liberians felt
2008-02-12 17:32 < Demi> which was many many people
2008-02-12 17:33 < shimgray> It was tossed around for a while, and finally implemented, but not v. well
2008-02-12 17:33 < The359> The name Liberia stands for "liberty" or "Land of the Free" as the country was colonized by freed African American slaves in 1822, and founded the country in 1847 with the support of Government of the United States creating a new ethnic group called the Americo-Liberians.
2008-02-12 17:33 < shimgray> for a start, most people didn't *want* to "go back to Africa"...
2008-02-12 17:33 < The359> their flag is almost pretty identical to the US flag
2008-02-12 17:33 < Demi> though it also makes some sense even if you aren't a faux-enlightenend ninenteenth-century bastard, on the face of it
2008-02-12 17:34 < yao_ziyuan> gwern: vietnam? india is america's new baby
2008-02-12 17:34 < yao_ziyuan> with one third of its population knowing english, india has more people knowing english than america
2008-02-12 17:35 < slashem> yeah but Indian english is -- different
2008-02-12 17:36 < yao_ziyuan> english will be different from what it is now.
2008-02-12 17:36 < TroubleClef> English has always been changing.
2008-02-12 17:36 < gwern> yao_ziyuan: it would be deeply amusing if english became india's lingua franca, now, way after the british left
2008-02-12 17:37 < Demi> english is everyone's lingua franca
2008-02-12 17:37 < Demi> except sometimes for actual franca
2008-02-12 17:37 < yao_ziyuan> not always
2008-02-12 17:37 < gwern> in africa, heh
2008-02-12 17:37 < yao_ziyuan> according to my vision,
2008-02-12 17:37 < Aqwis2> you have too many visions
2008-02-12 17:38 < yao_ziyuan> as more and more people can use english,
2008-02-12 17:38 < The359> took the words from my mouth, Aqwis2
2008-02-12 17:38 < yao_ziyuan> "the rest of the world" will finally take over the evolution of english
2008-02-12 17:38 < yao_ziyuan> and drive it away to a more "fairly represented" international language
2008-02-12 17:39 < gwern> maybe. or maybe they will just fragment and settle on the standard american/british english. 'You speak your Inglish, you can have your Engrish, and yes, Singlish is fine - but when we need to speak to each other, I'm afraid bog-standard english it is'
2008-02-12 17:39 < yao_ziyuan> nah
2008-02-12 17:39 < gwern> american/british may never again be a majority, but being a plurality might be enough to set the pace
2008-02-12 17:39 < yao_ziyuan> first, you should know why more people could know english
2008-02-12 17:39 < ggreer> modern communication technologies encourage standardization of languages, not splitting/dialects
2008-02-12 17:40 < ggreer> that's why smaller languages are dying out
2008-02-12 17:40 < yao_ziyuan> if english is learned as a second language naturally like today,
2008-02-12 17:40 < ggreer> I think it's a good thing, since a common language makes everything a lot easier
2008-02-12 17:40 < yao_ziyuan> the international english-capable population will reach a limit
2008-02-12 17:41 < Demi> a lot of people educated in english don't actually speak it in a meaningful sense, i think the number of english speakers in a population is usually overstated
2008-02-12 17:41 < Mike_H> Demi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0nrdRyxULI
2008-02-12 17:41 < yao_ziyuan> because most international people don't have a chance or need to deal with enough english
2008-02-12 17:41 < Mike_H> this is the floor show in Hell
2008-02-12 17:42 < yao_ziyuan> first let me explain what is a language
2008-02-12 17:42 < yao_ziyuan> a language is not only about a vocabulary and a grammar
2008-02-12 17:42 < yao_ziyuan> a "living" language also includes: a user base; an information base.
2008-02-12 17:42 < The359> yao, aren't you just a student with only minor work in the history of languages?
2008-02-12 17:43 < gwern> The359: come now, let him explain first
2008-02-12 17:43 < NotACow> a language is a group of people all of whom understand one another and who are willing to beat up anyone who doesn't understand them
2008-02-12 17:43 < yao_ziyuan> The359: i am amateur linguist
2008-02-12 17:43 < The359> I know
2008-02-12 17:43 < gwern> The359: are you much more qualified?
2008-02-12 17:43 < The359> no
2008-02-12 17:43 < The359> but I wasn't really arguing either
2008-02-12 17:44 < yao_ziyuan> some artificial languages do not have a big enough user base and/or information base (information already written in the language),
2008-02-12 17:44 < yao_ziyuan> like esperanto,
2008-02-12 17:44 < gwern> but you're trying to shut him down without even hearing him out
2008-02-12 17:44 < yao_ziyuan> so they never took off
2008-02-12 17:44 < TroubleClef> Klingon?
2008-02-12 17:44 < Demi> people hang on to their languages pretty tenaciously; for example, they usually want to be entertained in their native language, even when they are perfectly fluent in english
2008-02-12 17:44 < The359> well he has done this sort of rant a couple dozen times, gwern
2008-02-12 17:44 < TroubleClef> I like Yao.
2008-02-12 17:44 < Demi> "some artificial languages do not have a big enough user base and/or information base (information already written in the language)," <- this statement implies that some do
2008-02-12 17:45 < gwern> The359: new to me
2008-02-12 17:45 < The359> he has used different names before
2008-02-12 17:46 < yao_ziyuan> english as an international language does have a large user base and a large information base,
2008-02-12 17:47 < yao_ziyuan> but still we don't see enough international users in international communities where english is used, such as this irc channel
2008-02-12 17:47 < yao_ziyuan> i bet native english speakers here are over 70%
2008-02-12 17:47 < NotACow> klingon is not a language
2008-02-12 17:47 < Demi> i know i'm over 70%
2008-02-12 17:48 < NotACow> Demi: the only conlang with a significant number of speakers is esperanto, and the number of "native" esperanto speakers is perhaps in the hundreds.
2008-02-12 17:48 * gwern has a English power level exceeding 40000!!!1
2008-02-12 17:48 < NotACow> I AM NOT A TWO
2008-02-12 17:48 * The359 has WHAT 9000?!?
2008-02-12 17:48 < yao_ziyuan> the user base of english as an int'l language is growing slowly
2008-02-12 17:49 < The359> Do you expect it to grow rapidly when it's already rather massive?
2008-02-12 17:49 < gwern> (I think I did the DBZ reference right, but I never watched it so - does anyone know if I did that right?)
2008-02-12 17:49 < yao_ziyuan> my point is,
2008-02-12 17:49 < gwern> The359: percentage wise, no, but absolute numbers I'd expect to be sizable
2008-02-12 17:50 < yao_ziyuan> non-english-native people mostly don't go to english-speaking int'l communities like #wikipedia
2008-02-12 17:50 < Aqwis2> uhm
2008-02-12 17:50 < The359> A lot edit English Wikipedia...
2008-02-12 17:50 < Aqwis2> you're wrong.
2008-02-12 17:50 < yao_ziyuan> they mostly go to online communities using their native language
2008-02-12 17:50 < Aqwis2> we have quite a few germans in here
2008-02-12 17:51 < yao_ziyuan> The359: a lot, but not fairly represented yet
2008-02-12 17:51 < Aqwis2> for example
2008-02-12 17:51 < yao_ziyuan> but wikipedians are quite a kind of intellectual elites
2008-02-12 17:51 < Demi> NotACow - yes; and they're all sickos, too
2008-02-12 17:51 < Aqwis2> yeah, sure.
2008-02-12 17:51 < yao_ziyuan> i'm talk about the general international public online
2008-02-12 17:51 < Demi> it's true that the general international public doesn't visit #wikipedia on freenode
2008-02-12 17:52 < yao_ziyuan> they don't visit or talk on english sites
2008-02-12 17:52 < yao_ziyuan> for example,
2008-02-12 17:52 < yao_ziyuan> most chinese netizens regularly go to web portals like sina.com, sohu.com, 163.com
2008-02-12 17:52 < yao_ziyuan> so are most russian nationals, most french nationals, ...
2008-02-12 17:53 < yao_ziyuan> the world is still not sufficiently cross-linked
2008-02-12 17:53 < yao_ziyuan> there indeed are "international gathering points" like this channel, but these are too few compared to the whole global picture
2008-02-12 17:54 < yao_ziyuan> english is still a weak int'l language
2008-02-12 17:54 < Aqwis2> that won't change until the entire world speaks English natively - otherwise, native English speakers will be an elite, and people don't want that
2008-02-12 17:55 < yao_ziyuan> the day over 95% chinese netizens regularly visit a website in an int'l language (be english or not), that's the truly int'l language
2008-02-12 17:56 < yao_ziyuan> but i can see how this is going:
2008-02-12 17:56 < yao_ziyuan> first,
2008-02-12 17:56 < yao_ziyuan> there is a way to enable most people in "the rest of the world" to use english regularly
2008-02-12 17:56 < yao_ziyuan> not just learning english for school exams
2008-02-12 17:56 < shimgray> yao_ziyuan: Chinese has... special problems in that regard, though
2008-02-12 17:56 < yao_ziyuan> shimgray: i don't mean chinese at all
2008-02-12 17:57 < shimgray> what with most of the native-speaking population having somewhat restricted access
2008-02-12 17:57 < shimgray> (I do agree with your general principle, but using Chinese as a test case is going to be misleading)
2008-02-12 17:58 < yao_ziyuan> i mentioned that method before. it's like, a web browser extension that automatically replaces a small amount of words in a chinese web page that a chinese netizen is viewing, so that the chinese netizen naturally acquires english.
2008-02-12 17:59 < yao_ziyuan> i believe with this technology the rest of the world will soon be able to build more international communities online
2008-02-12 17:59 < yao_ziyuan> that way english will be a true int'l language
2008-02-12 17:59 < yao_ziyuan> but that's not the end
2008-02-12 18:00 < yao_ziyuan> as the rest of the world take control of english as the first int'l language,
2008-02-12 18:00 < yao_ziyuan> they will coordinate a coup
2008-02-12 18:00 < yao_ziyuan> to gradually fade english into a more fairly represented int'l language
2008-02-12 18:01 < yao_ziyuan> that is like, gradually replacing 1/5 english vocabulary with chinese words...
2008-02-12 18:01 < The359> A coup?
2008-02-12 18:01 < Aqwis2> there will never be a coup
2008-02-12 18:01 < Aqwis2> either it will evolve into that naturally or it won't happen at all
2008-02-12 18:01 < yao_ziyuan> yes, not suddenly
2008-02-12 18:02 < yao_ziyuan> but the initiation of this movement, i mean it's a coup
2008-02-12 18:02 < The359> not really?
2008-02-12 18:02 < The359> nor is it really a movement
2008-02-12 18:02 < yao_ziyuan> The359: what point do you have doubt about?
2008-02-12 18:02 < The359> English evolves with or without Chinese input
2008-02-12 18:05 < Demi> i think someone's been watching firefly
2008-02-12 18:07 < Mike_H> Demi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnCEtwqEOaQ
2008-02-12 18:07 < Mike_H> this is scary :(
2008-02-12 18:08 < Mike_H> some of the songs danced to
2008-02-12 18:08 < Mike_H> Out Of Touch - Hall and Oats
2008-02-12 18:08 < Mike_H> Drive - The Cars
2008-02-12 18:08 < Mike_H> Only When You Leave - Spandau Ballet
2008-02-12 18:08 < eth01> [TurtleOfDoom VERSION]
2008-02-12 18:09 < yao_ziyuan> i missed something:
2008-02-12 18:10 < yao_ziyuan> a web browser extension that automatically replaces [or annotates] a small amount of words in a chinese web page that a chinese netizen is viewing [with their english equivalents], so that the chinese netizen naturally acquires english.
2008-02-12 18:10 < The359> what's with the two NastyAccidents?
2008-02-12 18:11 < JordanC> eth01: Heya :D
2008-02-12 18:13 < yao_ziyuan> that sentence is really f*cking far stretching
2008-02-12 18:13 < yao_ziyuan> how would a native english speaker express it?
2008-02-12 18:14 < yao_ziyuan> particularly, the attachment of that with-clause is ambiguous
2008-02-12 18:14 < Aqwis2> i would express it roughly like that, but then i'm not a native english speaker ;|
2008-02-12 18:14 < yao_ziyuan> you're not? i think you are
2008-02-12 18:14 < Aqwis2> no
2008-02-12 18:14 < Aqwis2> i'm norwegian
2008-02-12 18:15 < yao_ziyuan> i got an idea
2008-02-12 18:16 < yao_ziyuan> a web browser extension that automatically replaces or annotates a small amount of words in a chinese web page, which a chinese netizen is viewing, with their english equivalents, so that the chinese netizen naturally acquires english.
2008-02-12 18:18 < Aqwis2> i think you've mentioned that idea about four times
2008-02-12 18:18 < yao_ziyuan> hehe
2008-02-12 18:19 < yao_ziyuan> by "i got an idea" i mean i got an idea to express that sentence more unambiguously
2008-02-12 18:20 < Aqwis2> ah
2008-02-12 18:30 < Dee> hi all
2008-02-12 18:30 < Mercerism> hi have question
2008-02-12 18:30 < Mercerism> what is rosalee?
2008-02-12 18:31 < Dee> is there a guidline as to when a company becomes "encyclopedic" enough to add to wikipedia?
2008-02-12 18:31 < Dee> or a product
2008-02-12 18:31 < Dee> and it not be constitued as advertising
2008-02-12 18:31 < Mercerism> Dee an encyclopedia must be encycling
2008-02-12 18:31 < Aqwis2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28organizations_and_companies%29
2008-02-12 18:31 < Dee> Aqwis2: ahh, thanks
2008-02-12 18:31 < Aqwis2> but keep in mind that companies aren't allowed to have good articles ;P
2008-02-12 18:31 < Dee> nice sensible name :)
2008-02-12 18:31 < Dee> :)
2008-02-12 18:32 < Mercerism> it is not whether an object is encyclopedic enough for an encyclopedia article, but if the article is encyclopedia enough an enecycling of a subject matter
2008-02-12 18:32 < Dee> id loked through all the pillars of WP and stuff
2008-02-12 18:32 < Dee> Mercerism: errrr, yes
2008-02-12 18:32 * Dee nods and agrees
2008-02-12 18:32 < Mercerism> i can write about how i masturbated 43 days ago and no one will object to having it included in encyclopedia britannica
2008-02-12 18:33 < Mercerism> think encyclopedic
2008-02-12 18:35 < Dee> so, essentially, mentioned on 3rd party sites
2008-02-12 18:35 < Dee> or places
2008-02-12 18:35 < Mercerism> or person
2008-02-12 18:36 < Mercerism> if i were to masturbate on say the pope in his vatican suite then it will definitely be encyclopedia noteworthy
2008-02-12 18:36 < Dee> yes
2008-02-12 18:36 < Dee> would also be messy
2008-02-12 18:36 < Mercerism> no one knows what rosalee means?
2008-02-12 18:37 < Cobi> By the way, the highlightredirects javascript is now obsoleted by a patch to MediaWiki that just went live. To enable green (or any other color) redirects, add the following to your monobook.css file: a.mw-redirect { color: green; }
2008-02-12 18:38 < GaryKing> Could someone tell me why the Wikipedia API is broken?
2008-02-12 18:38 < eth01> hmm?
2008-02-12 18:38 < GaryKing> At least, sorting articles is broken; the articles are returned out of order
2008-02-12 18:39 < GaryKing> eth01: Look at this and tell me it's not out of order :( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&list=categorymembers&cmtitle=Category:Physics&cmsort=sortkey&cmdir=asc
2008-02-12 18:39 < GaryKing> out of alphabetical order, that is
2008-02-12 18:39 < GaryKing> it happened starting a few minutes ago
2008-02-12 18:39 < GaryKing> or about an hour or two, but recently
2008-02-12 18:40 < geniice> Hmm looking for wikipedia's most dpressing article. so far http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_shyness is winning
2008-02-12 18:41 < GaryKing> Stop messing around with the API guys! :P
2008-02-12 18:41 < MrZ-man> I saw a news article about a bride who died during her first dance at her wedding reception
2008-02-12 18:41 < MrZ-man> ftw
2008-02-12 18:42 < NotACow> MrZ-man: i think that's a tv series plot line
2008-02-12 18:42 < MrZ-man> that would be a horrible show
2008-02-12 18:42 < GaryKing> yeah it happened yesterday
2008-02-12 18:42 < MrZ-man> where would you go from there
2008-02-12 18:42 < Messedrocker> DEATH TO SHOWS
2008-02-12 18:43 < GaryKing> that's racist
2008-02-12 18:43 < NotACow> aha
2008-02-12 18:44 < NotACow> here's one of a woman killed the day BEFORE her wedding -- and she was pregnant to boot
2008-02-12 18:44 < JordanC> http://www.nerdfun.com/banimg/ac-orly%20baby36-resize.gif
2008-02-12 18:44 < JordanC> XD
2008-02-12 18:46 < NotACow> the tv show plot line has the bride killed at the wedding by an ice sculpture that falls on her
2008-02-12 18:46 < NotACow> not quite the same
2008-02-12 18:46 < NotACow> movie plot, apparently
2008-02-12 18:47 < NotACow> "Over Her Dead Body"
2008-02-12 18:47 < eth01> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eth01 .. can't seem to get the automatic archiving to work properly? if somebody could tell me what i'm doing wrong :P
2008-02-12 18:48 < GaryKing> eth01: you have no archives
2008-02-12 18:48 < GaryKing> oh nevermind.. you want auto. never knew you could do that
2008-02-12 18:49 < eth01> hmm, so it'll automatically archive em?
2008-02-12 18:49 < GaryKing> eth01: Don't think you can.
2008-02-12 18:49 < GaryKing> Bots can do it for you, but not Wikipedia itself
2008-02-12 18:49 < eth01> any more info on that, i.e bots.
2008-02-12 18:50 < Dtobias> DEATH TO PEOPLE WHO SAY 'DEATH TO'!
2008-02-12 18:51 < JordanC> Pfft
2008-02-12 18:51 < Messedrocker> Dtobias, per your own words, you must die now
2008-02-12 18:51 * Dtobias kills myself
2008-02-12 18:51 < DannyLilithborne> someone help me out?
2008-02-12 18:51 < DannyLilithborne> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zangief&diff=191017380&oldid=191000436
2008-02-12 18:51 < DannyLilithborne> is this or is this not a horrible edit?
2008-02-12 18:51 < JordanC> Established registered users, hm?
2008-02-12 18:52 * Dtobias reincarnates, hopefully not as a cockroach
2008-02-12 18:52 < JordanC> It's too long
2008-02-12 18:52 < NotACow> DEATH FROM ABOVE
2008-02-12 18:52 < Dtobias> DEATH FROM BELOW
2008-02-12 18:52 < NotACow> DEATH FROM SQUASH
2008-02-12 18:52 < Dtobias> DEATH FROM KUMQUAT
2008-02-12 18:53 < Dtobias> DEATH FROM RUTABAGA
2008-02-12 18:53 < Snowolf> come on Dtobias...
2008-02-12 18:53 < Messedrocker> DEATH FROM KELLY MARTIN
2008-02-12 18:53 < Dtobias> DEATH FROM KELLY CLARKSON
2008-02-12 18:54 < NotACow> MEME BEAM
2008-02-12 18:54 < Dtobias> BEAM ME UP SCOTTY
2008-02-12 18:54 * privatemusings wonders why everyone is shouting about death
2008-02-12 18:54 < NotACow> BOOK 'EM, DANNO
2008-02-12 18:55 < Dtobias> WHO WROTE THE BOOK OF LOVE?
2008-02-12 18:55 < privatemusings> charles dickens
2008-02-12 18:55 < ccccex> I hear time
2008-02-12 18:55 < privatemusings> or was that 'Hard Times'?
2008-02-12 18:55 < NotACow> charlie pickens?
2008-02-12 18:55 < privatemusings> chuck pick