freenode #wikipedia

2008-02-10 13:25 < quanticle> slashem: What do you mean, "maintain articles they didn't write themselves?" As long as you have expertise in the area, you should be able to pick up on what's there and add to it.
2008-02-10 13:26 < slashem> gwern, maybe if there aren't any substantial changes, but for instance outline and organization of material can't just be grown piecemeal
2008-02-10 13:26 < NotAPolecat> but that may not be the standard one can hold us against
2008-02-10 13:26 < slashem> sigh, I have lost this argument many times
2008-02-10 13:26 < quanticle> slashem: Right, but you don't need to know the material as well in order to organize it.
2008-02-10 13:26 < slashem> weasel, of course I agree with you
2008-02-10 13:26 < slashem> no never mind, I don't want to have this argument again
2008-02-10 13:26 < gwern> slashem: well, the high-level synthesis can be awful hard, I'll admit
2008-02-10 13:27 < slashem> ok, a great example, to my mind, is the article [[Mathematics]]
2008-02-10 13:27 < gwern> and the broader the subject, the harder it gets
2008-02-10 13:27 < slashem> clearly someone went in there are presented a brilliant top-level organization of the major subfields of mathematics, and then ... someone else went in there and added ... stuff
2008-02-10 13:27 < slashem> s/are/and
2008-02-10 13:28 < NotAPolecat> I don't think those broad topics are representative
2008-02-10 13:28 < NotAPolecat> but yea
2008-02-10 13:28 < slashem> of course we all know wikipedia is bad at broad topics
2008-02-10 13:28 < NotAPolecat> you can always see when a single guy adds a single sentence at the end of a long, finely crafted paragraph, utterly killing it
2008-02-10 13:29 < NotAPolecat> but those things are easy to deal with
2008-02-10 13:29 < quanticle> NotAPolecat: The mathematics article has several of those.
2008-02-10 13:29 < slashem> yes, it's the larger changes which do in fact add useful information but don't fit in with the overall architecture which are hard to deal with
2008-02-10 13:29 < slashem> but again, maybe that's just not important for Wikipedia
2008-02-10 13:30 < Sfan00> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_international_report:_%22Anonymous%22_holds_over_250_anti-Scientology_protests_worldwide - Do you have comments or pictures?
2008-02-10 13:30 < Sfan00> Wikinews would like your contributions
2008-02-10 13:30 < quanticle> slashem: Hmmm. I see what you mean. For example, at the bottom of the first section of mathematics, there is a paragraph that adds useful information, but doesn't fit in at all with the rest of the section.
2008-02-10 13:30 * NotAPolecat is utterly untouched by Scientology
2008-02-10 13:31 < slashem> ah thank you, it is such a relief to feel understood :-)
2008-02-10 13:34 < quanticle> slashem: All the same, being of eventualist persuasion, I am not nearly as much bothered by it as you.
2008-02-10 13:34 < slashem> well, my problem is I don't think it's getting better. The initial author often does a good job which decays over time.
2008-02-10 13:35 < quanticle> slashem: Hmmm, that may well be true.
2008-02-10 13:35 < slashem> such has been my observation.
2008-02-10 13:35 < NotAPolecat> I think it comes and goes in cycles.
2008-02-10 13:35 < slashem> well, then some other author will be inspired enough to fix it all up again
2008-02-10 13:35 < NotAPolecat> there's no permanent flourish and no permanent decay
2008-02-10 13:35 < slashem> but these kinds of authors are rare
2008-02-10 13:35 < quanticle> Another issue I have is that articles' wiki-code becomes nearly un-understandable for any non-trivial article.
2008-02-10 13:35 < NotAPolecat> like the author who designed the original was rare
2008-02-10 13:35 < NotAPolecat> I agree
2008-02-10 13:36 < IceKarma> quanticle, there are indeed infelicities of syntax in MediaWiki markup
2008-02-10 13:36 < slashem> yeah, it's a general issue with many people editing without caring about the big picture
2008-02-10 13:36 < quanticle> The boxes, and images, and captions all require special markup, increasing the difficulty for a new editor.
2008-02-10 13:36 < NotAPolecat> I can understand why many people don't use more complex footnotes.
2008-02-10 13:36 < IceKarma> quanticle, but I'd tend to argue that for any markup M, there are jobs which it will do well and jobs it will make a horrible mess of
2008-02-10 13:37 < quanticle> IceKarma: That is true.
2008-02-10 13:37 < NotAPolecat> I believe programmers write a bit too much for programmers
2008-02-10 13:37 < IceKarma> quanticle, (this is of course another way of saying the complexity is fixed, and you can only slosh it around)
2008-02-10 13:38 < slashem> well, it's hard for programmers to do their job without thinking like programers
2008-02-10 13:38 < NotAPolecat> thats why
2008-02-10 13:38 < slashem> and it's hard for non-programmers to think like programmers
2008-02-10 13:38 < IceKarma> it's *hard*, yes, but it's not impossible
2008-02-10 13:38 < slashem> it takes a special kind of talent to be able to "translate" between the two kinds of thinking
2008-02-10 13:38 < IceKarma> unfortunately, programmers who are good enough at their job to be able to think like non-programmers are necessarily scarce
2008-02-10 13:38 < quanticle> IceKarma: I wonder if there's a way to separate the text and the "other stuff". That way, if a new user just wants to move a sentence from one paragraph to another, they won't have to think about all the other stuff thats in the way.
2008-02-10 13:38 < slashem> indeed
2008-02-10 13:38 < NotAPolecat> it's hard for people of any profession to imagine that anyone outside might not know self-evident technique X
2008-02-10 13:39 < quanticle> NotAPolecat: That is certainly true.
2008-02-10 13:39 < IceKarma> quanticle, WYSIWYG, or its cousin, WYSIMWYG
2008-02-10 13:39 < slashem> no wysiwyg is not what he is talking about, I think
2008-02-10 13:39 < quanticle> IceKarmay: What's the M in the second abbreviation?
2008-02-10 13:39 < NotAPolecat> WYSIWYGIYL
2008-02-10 13:39 < IceKarma> quanticle, Mostly
2008-02-10 13:39 < slashem> I suppose you could have two separate documents, one for raw text and one for markup, but that would probably be even more confusing
2008-02-10 13:40 * IceKarma fights the urge to go on a tangent about DWIM ;)
2008-02-10 13:40 < slashem> "the one instruction computer"
2008-02-10 13:40 < quanticle> slashem: I don't know what exactly I want, but I know that what I see isn't ideal. In that, I'm like most users on the planet.
2008-02-10 13:41 < IceKarma> slashem, I argue that there are cases both where you'll want some/most/all markup to follow text, and cases where you would want the same markup to stay put
2008-02-10 13:41 < slashem> IceKarma: yeah, that's a hell of a difficult problem
2008-02-10 13:41 < IceKarma> slashem, without a way to select a representation of e.g. a reference, I dunno how you can satisfy both
2008-02-10 13:41 < IceKarma> slashem, which is why I skipped the explanation and went straight for "WYSIWYG"
2008-02-10 13:41 < IceKarma> slashem, although I suppose you could generalize that to "what you see is connected 1:1 to what you get"
2008-02-10 13:41 < slashem> IceKarma: yeah, if the text changes, hard to tell what the companion markup doc is referring to
2008-02-10 13:42 < slashem> quanticle: indeed, often there is no common language between the users and the programmers
2008-02-10 13:42 < quanticle> slashem: Yeah, one solution is forbiddingly alien to newcomers, and another has horrible synchronization issues...
2008-02-10 13:42 < slashem> so something has to be invented, and then both sides try to figure out what they are trying to say
2008-02-10 13:42 < IceKarma> slashem, the current markup satisfies that requirement, once you've invested the large amount of effort involved in learning it
2008-02-10 13:43 < slashem> well of course that was what the complaint was about :-)
2008-02-10 13:43 < quanticle> slashem: I guess any non-trivial application requires some learning.
2008-02-10 13:43 < slashem> yeah, and no solution is perfect
2008-02-10 13:43 < IceKarma> s/learning/training/
2008-02-10 13:44 < slashem> sometimes the users themselves don't know what they want, or want something that isn't possible
2008-02-10 13:44 < quanticle> IceKarma: Yeah, that's what I meant. My lexicon is failing me today.
2008-02-10 13:44 < IceKarma> slashem, in my experience, users have no clue what they want.
2008-02-10 13:44 < slashem> of course the programmers aren't all-knowing either, so they both kind of fumble towards each other
2008-02-10 13:44 < quanticle> slashem: No, I think the users know what's possible, in a general sense. The common issue is that users don't know what they want.
2008-02-10 13:44 < slashem> well IceKarma that is what I'm saying, sometimes programmers believe that even though the programmers just don't understand it
2008-02-10 13:44 < NotAPolecat> bbl.
2008-02-10 13:45 < slashem> well and there are subtler issues like sometimes it is easier to force the users to learn something new than to force the programmers to cater to the users
2008-02-10 13:45 < White_Cat> users should be purged from the face of the earth
2008-02-10 13:45 < White_Cat> those scum bags
2008-02-10 13:45 < slashem> lol
2008-02-10 13:45 < quanticle> White_Cat: Stupid users...
2008-02-10 13:45 < quanticle> <grumble>
2008-02-10 13:46 < IceKarma> to a certain extent, I agree. but mostly, I feel that forcing people to do something awkward as a convenience to the programmer is to forget that it's the programmer who's solving the user's problem, not vice versa
2008-02-10 13:47 < IceKarma> yes, sometimes "the programmer" and "the end users" overlap, but I think that's an exception, not the rule
2008-02-10 13:47 < slashem> I think it needs to be emphasized that programmers and users need to meet in the middle
2008-02-10 13:47 < quanticle> IceKarma: However, sometimes (oftentimes) the cost of making a system 100% intuitive is prohibitive.
2008-02-10 13:48 < slashem> sometimes it makes economic sense to spend less of the programmer's time by forcing the users to learn something new
2008-02-10 13:48 < quanticle> IceKarma: I'm fairly convinced that this is the reason that Apple products are so expensive. They put lots of time and effort into making things easy to use for the vast majority of users.
2008-02-10 13:49 < IceKarma> hmm. I feel there's a conflation of two distinct entities happening, but I'm having trouble elucidating it
2008-02-10 13:49 < slashem> apple actually has an advantage that they cater to a user base that knows _less_ about computers and so is prepared to do a lot of learning rather than coming to computers with preconcieved notions about how they want to use them
2008-02-10 13:50 < slashem> anyone already experienced with windows will find macs frustrating, for instance
2008-02-10 13:50 < Dp67> I hate Macs
2008-02-10 13:50 < IceKarma> if I use the terms "gratuitous complexity" and "essential complexity", am I going to have to run for my life? ;)
2008-02-10 13:50 < quanticle> slashem: That's certainly true. My first experience was with Windows, and I switched to Linux when I had the option of switching to Macs.
2008-02-10 13:50 < slashem> IceKarma: I know what youa re talking about
2008-02-10 13:50 < Sfan00> !np
2008-02-10 13:50 < quanticle> IceKarma: No.
2008-02-10 13:51 < IceKarma> oh, goodie.
2008-02-10 13:51 < slashem> certainly there are some kinds of complexity that are gratuitous
2008-02-10 13:51 < slashem> but sometimes the cognitive effort it takes to see through that to the essential complexity is prohibitively expensive
2008-02-10 13:51 < IceKarma> you can't really do anything about essential complexity, except by trying to bring structure to it
2008-02-10 13:52 < IceKarma> gratuitous complexity is well-demonstrated by an API a friend of mine was complaining about a few weeks ago, that in some places expects angles to be measured in radians, and in others, in hundredths of a degree
2008-02-10 13:52 < NotAPolecat> brb
2008-02-10 13:52 < quanticle> Anyway, can someone look at the first paragraph of the History section in [[Mathematics]] and tell me what to do with the last sentence; the one about geometry?
2008-02-10 13:52 < slashem> basically, (some) programmers can separate essential complexity from gratuitous complexity, but for you to explain that to a user you would have to teach them to think like a programmer, not just that, a talented programmer (like top ten percent)
2008-02-10 13:53 < IceKarma> (yes, the target audience of an API is wildly different than the audience of, say, a word processor or a wiki, but the essential point remains)
2008-02-10 13:53 < slashem> and worse than that, often which complexity is essential depends on the particular paradigm you have in mind
2008-02-10 13:53 < slashem> and different people are comfortable with different paradigms
2008-02-10 13:53 < IceKarma> slashem, excellent, you managed to put into words something I was fumbling for and not finding :D
2008-02-10 13:53 < slashem> oh is that what you meant? My goodness, I am glad I understood you :-)
2008-02-10 13:54 < quanticle> IceKarma: Have you read _The_ _Design_ _of_ _Everyday_ _Things_ by any chance?
2008-02-10 13:54 < IceKarma> quanticle, hahaha, yes. :D
2008-02-10 13:54 < slashem> classic
2008-02-10 13:54 < IceKarma> quanticle, in fact, I've forced it on a number of friends
2008-02-10 13:54 < quanticle> IceKarma: I have that book on my shelf right now.
2008-02-10 13:54 < slashem> a little too theoretical in my opinion thoug
2008-02-10 13:54 < IceKarma> quanticle, mine's On Loan at the moment
2008-02-10 13:55 < slashem> on loan??? BUY ANOTHER ONE
2008-02-10 13:55 < quanticle> slashem: It was originally published as a study in psychology, so a little bit of theory is to be expected.
2008-02-10 13:55 < slashem> Norman went on to become an Apple Fellow where he was given the chance to put his ideas into practice but he was less successful at that
2008-02-10 13:56 < IceKarma> did he fall into the Theoretical Gap?
2008-02-10 13:56 < bumm13> it's not like nobody has grappled with these issues before
2008-02-10 13:56 < slashem> bumm13 indeed
2008-02-10 13:56 < NotACow> quanticle: i have that book. excellent book.
2008-02-10 13:56 < IceKarma> bumm13, it's not like many have grapped with them -and won-, never mind lived to tell the tale.
2008-02-10 13:56 < bumm13> just an ongoing issue as tech evolves
2008-02-10 13:56 < nokmar> 3
2008-02-10 13:56 < bumm13> IceKarma: indeed
2008-02-10 13:57 < slashem> Norman is certainly thought provoking and well worth reading
2008-02-10 13:57 < slashem> just -- mind the gap :-)
2008-02-10 13:57 < bumm13> I mostly know about the work that went into more intuitive computer interfaces
2008-02-10 13:57 < IceKarma> slashem, hahaha. :D
2008-02-10 13:57 < slashem> heard of "The Humane Interface"?
2008-02-10 13:57 < bumm13> (that went into high gear at SRI in the 60s and Xerox PARC in the 70s)
2008-02-10 13:57 < bumm13> yep
2008-02-10 13:57 < bumm13> Jef Raskin's project
2008-02-10 13:58 < slashem> his work deserved a lot more attention
2008-02-10 13:58 < bumm13> yes
2008-02-10 13:58 < bumm13> he was one of the great computer scientists in that area
2008-02-10 13:59 < bumm13> not only did he initiate the Macintosh project at Apple, much of what it originally became was due to him having had Bill Atkinson as a student
2008-02-10 13:59 < slashem> on the other hand, Raskin's ideas (in his book) are looking a little dated now, since, as a practicioner, he was more closely tied to the technology of his day
2008-02-10 13:59 < quanticle> Indeed, I read a study that argued that most "computer" errors can be thought of as "human" errors, in the sense that the user misunderstands the interface and does something that they had no intention of doing.
2008-02-10 14:00 < bumm13> sure
2008-02-10 14:00 < bumm13> quanticle: sounds about right
2008-02-10 14:00 < slashem> so the whole theory/practice thing has no ultimate solution
2008-02-10 14:00 < quanticle> slashem: Its one of those unwinnable problems. If you could bridge the theory/practice gap perfectly, robots could do our thinking for us.
2008-02-10 14:01 < bumm13> the GUI could use another revolutionary step forward, but companies aren't likely to fund such research nowadays
2008-02-10 14:01 < slashem> life would become very boring then :-)
2008-02-10 14:01 < bumm13> (or any other entity)
2008-02-10 14:01 < slashem> i rather think the industry has gotten too big for a revolution
2008-02-10 14:01 < bumm13> probably true, yes
2008-02-10 14:01 < slashem> it's like trying to redesign the US highway system
2008-02-10 14:01 < slashem> the cities are already where they are
2008-02-10 14:01 < bumm13> good comparison
2008-02-10 14:06 < kraupu> labas
2008-02-10 14:08 < bumm13> wow, Lithuania
2008-02-10 14:08 < bumm13> labas :)
2008-02-10 14:13 < bumm13_> kraupu: atsiprašau, aš nekalbu lietuviškai :(
2008-02-10 14:14 * IceKarma goes out on a limb, and with practically no knowledge of Lithuanian, translates that as "unfortunately, I don't speak Lithuanian"
2008-02-10 14:14 < bumm13> yep
2008-02-10 14:14 < bumm13> ("I'm sorry")
2008-02-10 14:15 < bumm13> I think this may be our first .lt visitor :x
2008-02-10 14:16 < IceKarma> I can't prove it, but I think we may have had prior
2008-02-10 14:16 < bumm13> kraupu: do you know any English?
2008-02-10 14:16 < slashem> I thought .lt was pretty well wired
2008-02-10 14:16 < quanticle> slashem: I think you're thinking of Estonia
2008-02-10 14:16 < slashem> yes, you are right
2008-02-10 14:17 < Brian_M> Any admins here?
2008-02-10 14:18 < gwern> usually there are
2008-02-10 14:18 < gwern> hm
2008-02-10 14:19 < bumm13> ok then...
2008-02-10 14:20 < bumm13_> kraupu: czy mówisz po polsku?
2008-02-10 14:20 < NotAPolecat> heh
2008-02-10 14:21 < NotAPolecat> Awesome
2008-02-10 14:21 * bumm13 seems to be failing here :(
2008-02-10 14:21 < slashem> nye gevaru parusski
2008-02-10 14:21 < bumm13> I figure maybe trying Russian might not be a good idea :P
2008-02-10 14:21 * NotAPolecat nie mówi po polsku
2008-02-10 14:22 < slashem> well I said I DON'T speak it, if that helps
2008-02-10 14:22 < bumm13> do ya? :)
2008-02-10 14:22 < NotAPolecat> Whereas...
2008-02-10 14:22 < bumm13> (oh, don't)
2008-02-10 14:22 < IceKarma> "ne govoru po-Russkiy", I think
2008-02-10 14:22 < NotAPolecat> it might be a tad oxymoronic to state those things in the language
2008-02-10 14:22 < IceKarma> but transliteration systems are a dime a dozen
2008-02-10 14:22 < slashem> I learned the phrase phonetically, don't know how to spell it
2008-02-10 14:22 < bumm13> IceKarma: looks good enough
2008-02-10 14:22 < bumm13> our friend seems quiet :p
2008-02-10 14:23 < NotAPolecat> the "e" is probably a shva
2008-02-10 14:23 < IceKarma> slashem, As and Os overlap phonetically in Russian
2008-02-10 14:23 < slashem> lurking is universal
2008-02-10 14:23 < NotAPolecat> that intimidated him
2008-02-10 14:23 < NotAPolecat> sveikas!
2008-02-10 14:23 < NotAPolecat> brb
2008-02-10 14:23 < IceKarma> I haven't got back a CTCP PING
2008-02-10 14:23 < danopia> *PONG
IceKarma
2008-02-10 14:23 < slashem> YOU ARE SCARING THE NEWBIE
2008-02-10 14:23 < IceKarma> but that doesn't necessarily mean much
2008-02-10 14:23 * NotAPolecat once had a Lithuanian girlfriend
2008-02-10 14:23 < bumm13> interesting
2008-02-10 14:24 < NotAPolecat> yea, good times.
2008-02-10 14:24 < IceKarma> does that mean you know all sorts of rude phrases in Lithuanian? ;)
2008-02-10 14:24 < NotAPolecat> unfortunately, she lived in the most boring large city on offer.
2008-02-10 14:24 * slashem boggles
2008-02-10 14:24 < bumm13> I've never met anyone with Baltic-type ancestry in the U.S. that wasn't born here
2008-02-10 14:25 < NotAPolecat> this was in Germany.
2008-02-10 14:25 < slashem> i think IceKarma was referring to your lovelife
2008-02-10 14:25 < NotAPolecat> Oh.
2008-02-10 14:25 < NotAPolecat> No I don't
2008-02-10 14:25 < NotAPolecat> probably "not any more"
2008-02-10 14:27 < NotAPolecat> My Lithuanian vocabulary is even worse than my Polish vocabulary which in turn is already pitiful enough
2008-02-10 14:38 < posr> my linux work without drivers but with drivers don't work same thing in windows
2008-02-10 14:38 < kraupu> bumm13, aha. lithuania.
2008-02-10 14:38 < posr> the video card is broken?
2008-02-10 14:38 < posr> :(
2008-02-10 14:38 < posr> video drivers
2008-02-10 14:38 < posr> sorry
2008-02-10 14:38 < slashem> posr: this is not really the place to ask
2008-02-10 14:38 < Miranda> posr: ##linux maybe?
2008-02-10 14:38 < bumm13> kraupu - :)
2008-02-10 14:39 < posr> i try that channel no one can help me
2008-02-10 14:39 < posr> :(
2008-02-10 14:39 < Miranda> :-(
2008-02-10 14:39 < slashem> maybe #ubuntu
2008-02-10 14:40 < posr> try to he say to look up another channel
2008-02-10 14:40 < bumm13> posr: you mean you are dual-booting?
2008-02-10 14:41 < posr> bumm13 nop in moorning i try to install slackware 12 and when i install nvidia drivers i got blank screen like tv without channels then i set up windows xp and same thing happen
2008-02-10 14:41 < slashem> try the video card in another computer
2008-02-10 14:41 < posr> i got only one computer :(
2008-02-10 14:42 < slashem> well I don't have any other advice
2008-02-10 14:42 < posr> its ok thanks for help
2008-02-10 14:42 < posr> i just want know it's video card are not to go garanty service :)
2008-02-10 14:43 < slashem> if it does the same thing in linux and windows it is not a driver problem, probably hardware
2008-02-10 14:43 < kraupu> bumm13, čia viskas tvarkoje.
2008-02-10 14:44 < posr> i think same but without drivers i can see pictures and other stuff if video card broken i think i don't see that
2008-02-10 14:44 < slashem> it is still possible for hardware failure to act like that, I think
2008-02-10 14:44 < slashem> tricky, maybe ask someone else
2008-02-10 14:45 < slashem> there is an nvidia channel I htink
2008-02-10 14:45 < slashem> type /list
2008-02-10 14:45 < posr> hmm and strange think is i boot to hiren boot cd and test all hardware and he say it's ok
2008-02-10 14:45 < slashem> don't know anything about that
2008-02-10 14:45 < posr> in nvidia i whait abaout hour to asnwer
2008-02-10 14:45 < posr> :)
2008-02-10 14:46 < slashem> try on a message board, there is an official nvidia support bbs
2008-02-10 14:46 < slashem> really, this is not right place
2008-02-10 14:46 < posr> alredy post new topic know im gona whait thanks :)
2008-02-10 14:46 < slashem> ok bye
2008-02-10 14:47 < posr> bye :)
2008-02-10 14:47 < slashem> that guy was absolutely russian
2008-02-10 14:47 < slashem> I've spent enough time picking up russian chicks to know the accent now
2008-02-10 14:51 < NotAPolecat> I love the Hungarian accent
2008-02-10 14:51 < slashem> I find a mexican accent quite sexy
2008-02-10 14:52 < NotAPolecat> I dunno
2008-02-10 14:52 < bumm13> slashem: which guy?
2008-02-10 14:52 < slashem> hahahaha
2008-02-10 14:52 < Dp67> An asian chick with a british accent..
2008-02-10 14:52 < NotAPolecat> American girls love accents, so they tend to me disappointed with me
2008-02-10 14:52 < NotAPolecat> *be
2008-02-10 14:52 < NotAPolecat> because mine isn't very strong
2008-02-10 14:52 < slashem> you have to watch the telemundo soaps to know what I mean
2008-02-10 14:53 < slashem> My accent in foreign languages is very good
2008-02-10 14:54 * bumm13 watches the video to "Rock the Casbah"
2008-02-10 14:55 < NotAPolecat> Rock to [[Casper, Wyoming|Casper]]
2008-02-10 14:55 < slashem> weasel, you have a mostly american accent, or british?
2008-02-10 14:55 < NotAPolecat> I can pull of both, but my American accent tends to be more convincing
2008-02-10 14:55 < NotAPolecat> it depends on the environment
2008-02-10 14:55 < slashem> how did that happen?
2008-02-10 14:55 < NotAPolecat> Eh, spending time in both environments
2008-02-10 14:55 < NotAPolecat> I pick up the accent around me extremely fast
2008-02-10 14:56 < slashem> yeah so do I
2008-02-10 14:56 < NotAPolecat> in English-language classes I use American
2008-02-10 14:56 < slashem> when I hung out with a friend from North Carolina I started talking like him
2008-02-10 14:56 < NotAPolecat> haha
2008-02-10 14:56 < slashem> how many languages did you learn as a child?
2008-02-10 14:56 < NotAPolecat> Like John Edwards
2008-02-10 14:56 < slashem> I actually haven't heard Edwards
2008-02-10 14:56 < NotAPolecat> Ah wiz ehn-in-shored!
2008-02-10 14:57 < NotAPolecat> (I was uninsured)
2008-02-10 14:57 < NotAPolecat> um, one
2008-02-10 14:57 < slashem> hmm, not quite hearing it
2008-02-10 14:57 < NotAPolecat> German
2008-02-10 14:57 < Dp67> I speak American english, but learned to speak British english so if I am around brits I easily slip into British english without effort
2008-02-10 14:57 < NotAPolecat> English from fifth grade, French from seventh
2008-02-10 14:57 < slashem> really? And you don't have much trouble with accents? That's unusual
2008-02-10 14:57 < NotAPolecat> then bits and pieces at home and on trips
2008-02-10 14:58 < NotAPolecat> Not really, a lot of younger people manage.
2008-02-10 14:58 < slashem> I'm listening to a lot of British pop music these days, so I'm getting used to it
2008-02-10 14:58 < bumm13> I was introduced to Spanish in second grade and have little fluency in it :(
2008-02-10 14:58 < slashem> learning a lot of the jargon
2008-02-10 14:58 < slashem> I do pretty well in spanish
2008-02-10 14:58 < NotAPolecat> Older people, even people proficient in English, tend to have horrible accents here
2008-02-10 14:58 < slashem> mandarin was actually my first language
2008-02-10 14:58 < slashem> do you think you were exposed to english phonemes on TV when you were younger?
2008-02-10 14:59 < NotAPolecat> not much, except music
2008-02-10 14:59 < slashem> phoneme acquisition at about two is very important
2008-02-10 14:59 < bumm13> first non-native language? or native language?
2008-02-10 14:59 < gwern> hee hee. 'exposed to english phonemes' - we'd better isolate you as a possible carrier
2008-02-10 14:59 < slashem> mandarin first native language
2008-02-10 14:59 < bumm13> ah
2008-02-10 14:59 < gwern> don't worry slashem, treatments for that are very effective with modern medicine!
2008-02-10 14:59 < slashem> hahaha
2008-02-10 14:59 < NotAPolecat> I really didn't speak more than a few words of English until I was twelve.
2008-02-10 14:59 < gwern> you'll probably be able to go on to live a normal life
2008-02-10 14:59 * bumm13 hates not being fluent in more than one language >:(
2008-02-10 15:00 < slashem> with mandarin, english, and spanish, I think I have about two-thirds of the world covered
2008-02-10 15:00 < gwern> bumm13: yeah, just think - you'll never be able to run for the board as a American^Wmonolinguist
2008-02-10 15:00 < NotAPolecat> but lately I've concentrated on English so much that the other things have fallen flat
2008-02-10 15:00 < slashem> but I really want to learn American Sign Language
2008-02-10 15:00 * bumm13 wonders where The Clash got the idea for having an armadillo running around in this video...
2008-02-10 15:01 < bumm13> the funny thing about ASL is that it isn't just literal English in signed form
2008-02-10 15:01 < NotAPolecat> Most people's school French is even more atrocious than mine, but that's little comfort
2008-02-10 15:01 < gwern> slashem: I learned a little ASL. unless sign language intrinsically interests you, and you get amusement vaalue from knowing the gesture for 'balls' or 'fuck off', it isn't worth it
2008-02-10 15:01 < gwern> bumm13: fingerspelling is
2008-02-10 15:01 < NotAPolecat> it's not really got anything to do with what people speak in France itself
2008-02-10 15:01 < slashem> bumm13: many people are surprised by that, but I wasn't
2008-02-10 15:01 < bumm13> nothing fazes you? ;)
2008-02-10 15:02 < slashem> gwern: it is hard to find opportunites to practice
2008-02-10 15:02 < slashem> bumm13: well, I knew a little bit of linguistics before I encountered it, so intuitively knew it would be a completely distinct language
2008-02-10 15:02 < gwern> slashem: no kidding. deaf people are fairly rare, unless you visit places like Gallaudet or NTID (where there are many glad to practice with you)
2008-02-10 15:02 < bumm13> that's not intuition
2008-02-10 15:02 < slashem> gwern: in fact I live near one of the largest deaf schools outside of gallaudet
2008-02-10 15:03 < slashem> bumm13: oh? what is it?
2008-02-10 15:03 * NotAPolecat lost his tissues
2008-02-10 15:03 < bumm13> you knew a little bit of linguistics
2008-02-10 15:03 < NotAPolecat> But then, my marbles are still there
2008-02-10 15:03 < gwern> slashem: csun or ntid?
2008-02-10 15:03 < slashem> um -- fremont?
2008-02-10 15:03 < slashem> california?
2008-02-10 15:03 < bumm13> thus, it was a non-surprising fact to you based on prior knowledge
2008-02-10 15:04 < slashem> well, I had an intuitive feel for linguistics even before I first took a class
2008-02-10 15:04 < slashem> it's not like my linguistics class said anything about ASL
2008-02-10 15:04 < gwern> slashem: ah. that makes sense too
2008-02-10 15:04 < NotAPolecat> Don't ask a grammar book, ask your gut!
2008-02-10 15:05 < bumm13> heehee
2008-02-10 15:05 < slashem> yes, so if I really wanted to make a commitment, I could practice there, about half an hour from where I live
2008-02-10 15:05 * bumm13 gets himself committed
2008-02-10 15:05 < slashem> you know, I was studying the instructional video, and I swear I thought I could distinguish the accents of the prelinguistically Deaf from the non-Deaf
2008-02-10 15:06 < Dp67> deaf people are usually very eager to help the hearing learn.
2008-02-10 15:06 < slashem> cause there actually is a difference, if you didn't know
2008-02-10 15:06 < bumm13> as long as they don't rig up TDDs to explode and kill people with cochlear implants
2008-02-10 15:06 < Dp67> I know a little ASL and know hoe to finger spell.. but I'm rusty.
2008-02-10 15:07 < slashem> actually the whole relation between Deaf subculture and mainstream culture is complicated
2008-02-10 15:07 < bumm13> I don't think my brain likes language all that well (in terms of using stuff I've learned later in life)
2008-02-10 15:07 * NotAPolecat is able to do bits and pieces of German ASL, but they're too arbitrary to be useful
2008-02-10 15:07 < slashem> there are isolationists and integrationists and some who resent the invasion of "their" language and some who are afraid cochlear implants will destroy their culture
2008-02-10 15:07 < bumm13> I can do okay with written language, but speaking/hearing in a foreign language is excruiatingly difficult for me
2008-02-10 15:08 < NotAPolecat> Hearing more than speaking, to me.
2008-02-10 15:08 < bumm13> same here, actually
2008-02-10 15:08 < slashem> well, you know infants have a window during which they learn to distinguish the phonemes of their native language, and "forget" the rest?
2008-02-10 15:08 < NotAPolecat> And I hate having to ask the equivalent of "beg you pa'don?" three times in a row
2008-02-10 15:08 < slashem> the fact that I learned mandarin and english at almost the same time gives me an advantage here
2008-02-10 15:08 < bumm13> but that hasn't stopped others from learning second languages
2008-02-10 15:09 < slashem> large selection of phonemes
2008-02-10 15:09 < NotAPolecat> I know parents who raise their kid biligually despite having terrible accents themselves.
2008-02-10 15:09 < Dp67> I can hear spanish and know pretty much wht the persons saying, but can/t speak it all that well. So I can relate to that.
2008-02-10 15:09 < NotAPolecat> Not sure if that helps
2008-02-10 15:10 < NotAPolecat> *n
2008-02-10 15:10 < slashem> they really need exposure to a native speaker to learn the native accent
2008-02-10 15:10 < bumm13> Dp67: I find Spanish speaking to be "too fast"
2008-02-10 15:10 < bumm13> and I know Mexican dialect(s) tend to slur their words a lot
2008-02-10 15:10 < slashem> the important thing about spanish is that there are actually more syllables on average per word, so you don't need to distinguish individual syllables so much if you can focus on the overall phrase
2008-02-10 15:10 < Dp67> espeicially spanish women. My ex was from Peru and when she got wound up it was a million words a minute
2008-02-10 15:11 < NotAPolecat> As I said
2008-02-10 15:11 < NotAPolecat> I even have trouble with English sometimes
2008-02-10 15:11 * bumm13 is exasperated with having no interesting skills that he can potentially learn :(
2008-02-10 15:11 < NotAPolecat> some young American women leave out final consonants
2008-02-10 15:11 < NotAPolecat> their "but" sounds ike "bu'"
2008-02-10 15:11 < slashem> I don't really know what you mean there weasel
2008-02-10 15:11 < bumm13> me neither
2008-02-10 15:11 < NotAPolecat> a really flat way of talking
2008-02-10 15:12 < slashem> some brits replace t with glottal stop, but that's not an american thing
2008-02-10 15:12 < NotAPolecat> one flow, with almost all obstructive consonants either softened or left out
2008-02-10 15:12 < bumm13> if you want an English challenge, listen to inner city African-descent American speech
2008-02-10 15:12 < Dp67> cockney.. lol
2008-02-10 15:12 < NotAPolecat> and then the tendency to make every sentence sound like a question
2008-02-10 15:12 < Dp67> Ebonics sucks..
2008-02-10 15:12 < NotAPolecat> Some Scottish accents are difficult.
2008-02-10 15:12 < bumm13> yeah
2008-02-10 15:13 < Dp67> I hate that whole 'urban-gansta' mantality
2008-02-10 15:13 < bumm13> Dp67: it's not all gangsta-oriented though
2008-02-10 15:13 < slashem> from a linguists perspective black english is no better or worse than any other dialect
2008-02-10 15:13 < bumm13> poverty also plays a role
2008-02-10 15:13 < bumm13> slashem: it just is what it is
2008-02-10 15:14 < bumm13> you find a similar pattern among poor white rural Americans
2008-02-10 15:15 < Dp67> I don't have a problem with Scott's Irish, or Brits. I actually understand the various UK dialects better than I do american.
2008-02-10 15:15 < bumm13> (although not often as pronounced)
2008-02-10 15:15 < Dp67> bumm13, They are wannabe's
2008-02-10 15:16 < bumm13> they?
2008-02-10 15:16 < Dp67> white who wanna be
2008-02-10 15:16 < NotAPolecat> and "wannabe" whats
2008-02-10 15:16 < NotAPolecat> Oh.
2008-02-10 15:16 < bumm13> Dp67: I think you misunderstood me
2008-02-10 15:16 * bumm13 NP: R.E.M. - Losing My Religion (1992)
2008-02-10 15:16 < NotAPolecat> A nice Glaswegian or Highlands dialect is fairly difficult
2008-02-10 15:17 < bumm13> I meant rural whites not speaking "textbook" U.S. English
2008-02-10 15:17 < Dp67> My uncles from Glasgow so I don't have a problem.. lol
2008-02-10 15:17 < bumm13> there's a specific "pocket" in my home county where many people speak in a strange non-textbook English "dialect" (rural)
2008-02-10 15:18 * bumm13 names it "Hokey" :D
2008-02-10 15:18 < bumm13> a lot of the people in that area are.....pig farmers
2008-02-10 15:18 < bumm13> ^(")^
2008-02-10 15:19 < Dp67> damn, ash spends mote time connecting a nick colliding than he/she does on line.. lol
2008-02-10 15:19 < slashem> what .. is that?
2008-02-10 15:19 < bumm13> pig smiley :)
2008-02-10 15:19 < slashem> oh i get it now
2008-02-10 15:19 < Ashfire908> Dp67, you think i like that?
2008-02-10 15:19 < bumm13> :)
2008-02-10 15:20 < Dp67> didnt say you did..
2008-02-10 15:21 < Dp67> I've got some friends from Kentucky, and you talk about a strange dialect... They speak their own brand of english thats for sure..
2008-02-10 15:22 * NotAPolecat realizes he's been up since six in the morning
2008-02-10 15:22 < NotAPolecat> Fifteen hour day.
2008-02-10 15:22 < bumm13> yikes
2008-02-10 15:23 < Dp67> im a chronic insomniac so 15 hours is nothing for me..
2008-02-10 15:23 < NotAPolecat> Jaiks!
2008-02-10 15:23 * NotAPolecat would sleep the whole day if it was his to choose
2008-02-10 15:23 < bumm13> I have no trouble sleeping when I lay down :x
2008-02-10 15:24 < bumm13> same here
2008-02-10 15:24 < Dp67> I do.. I can lie in bed for 12 hours and only get a few winks of sleep.. the rest I just lie there wishing I was asleep.
2008-02-10 15:25 < bumm13> my older sister is kind of like that
2008-02-10 15:25 < Dp67> spend all day in bed and still get up exhausted
2008-02-10 15:25 < NotAPolecat> Dp67: I get that when I'm nervous.
2008-02-10 15:26 < NotAPolecat> I'm nervous most of the time, but my energy is usually smaller than my nervousness :-D
2008-02-10 15:27 < Dp67> I have allot of axiety issues as well.
2008-02-10 15:27 < NotAPolecat> May be part of it
2008-02-10 15:27 < Dp67> cant even remember hoe to spell it.. lol
2008-02-10 15:29 < Dp67> Bi-Polar has alot to do with it was well.. I go for days even weeks sometimes on a few hours sleep then I just crash and sleep for 2 days if i can get away with it.
2008-02-10 15:29 * bumm13 NP: Nitty Gritty Dirt Band - Santa Rosa (1970)
2008-02-10 15:29 < bumm13> Dp67: are you bipolar?
2008-02-10 15:29 < Dp67> yeah
2008-02-10 15:29 < bumm13> aww
2008-02-10 15:29 < bumm13> that will certainly influence the lack of sleep :x
2008-02-10 15:30 < mavhc> sometimes I lie in bed and my queue of podcasts finishes, but 99% of the time I'm asleep within 10 mins
2008-02-10 15:30 < bumm13> it's like half the time your brain is on meth, the other half of the time on valium :P
2008-02-10 15:30 < Dp67> bumm13, no kidding..
2008-02-10 15:31 < NotAPolecat> Holy Pazuzu...
2008-02-10 15:31 < NotAPolecat> brb
2008-02-10 15:31 < bumm13> o.o
2008-02-10 15:31 < NotAPolecat> nothing serious
2008-02-10 15:31 < NotAPolecat> :-D
2008-02-10 15:31 < NotAPolecat> still, brb
2008-02-10 15:31 < bumm13> ah good
2008-02-10 15:31 < Dp67> my body can be dead exhausted but my brain wont shut off..
2008-02-10 15:31 < bumm13> yeah
2008-02-10 15:33 < NotAPolecat> "He also represented the southwestern wind, the bearer of storms and drought."
2008-02-10 15:33 < NotAPolecat> "Er galt als Personifikation des Südostwinds und brachte Pest, Fieber und Kälte."
2008-02-10 15:34 < bumm13> ?
2008-02-10 15:34 < NotAPolecat> Südost = southeastern
2008-02-10 15:34 < NotAPolecat> Maybe we need a tie-breaking third version
2008-02-10 15:34 < bumm13> heh
2008-02-10 15:34 < NotAPolecat> Il représente aussi le vent du sud-ouest, qui apporte les orages.
2008-02-10 15:34 < bumm13> SW
2008-02-10 15:34 < NotAPolecat> German Wikipedia is wrong.
2008-02-10 15:34 < bumm13> heehee
2008-02-10 15:35 < NotAPolecat> Hey, in law we always solve scientific debates by majority, not by what is right
2008-02-10 15:35 < NotAPolecat> :-D
2008-02-10 15:35 < bumm13> :P
2008-02-10 15:35 < NotAPolecat> (uncommon in the Common Law)
2008-02-10 15:36 < NotAPolecat> you guys just don't have such an active culture of academic bickering
2008-02-10 15:36 < Sfan00> Hi is Vandalism on enwiki any higher than normal?
2008-02-10 15:38 < Dp67> dunno fighting vandals raises my BP so I tend to stick to my watchlist and forget RC patrol
2008-02-10 16:00 < NovaDog> hiho
2008-02-10 16:00 < bumm13> hi
2008-02-10 16:27 < Sonja> there was a huge protest outside the church of scientology in toronto today with hundreds of protesters...
2008-02-10 16:27 < Sonja> do we have a wikipedia article about today's events around the world? i'm wondering what is going on
2008-02-10 16:27 < bumm13> w00t
2008-02-10 16:28 < Dp67> Sonja, http://en.wikinews.org/
2008-02-10 16:30 < Dp67> http://tinyurl.com/2kv8ex
2008-02-10 16:32 < Sfan00> Sonja: Wikinews has coverage
2008-02-10 16:46 < mavhc> the great thing about scientologists is you can burn their churches to the ground without being racist
2008-02-10 16:47 < artfullylost> You know.... scientology sucks.
2008-02-10 16:48 < Starnestommy> I'm with Anonymous on this one
2008-02-10 16:48 < Dp67> it does.. that all are smoking crack
2008-02-10 16:49 < mavhc> now I have to convert my music/podcasts to tape because my dad has a crappy car stereo and I'm too disorganised to buy an fm transmitter
2008-02-10 16:49 < Dp67> get a cassette tape converter
2008-02-10 16:50 < Sunderland2006> goodbye
2008-02-10 16:50 < quanticle> Dp67: You can get a cheap tape adapter.
2008-02-10 16:51 < mavhc> do they do them that play from sd/usb directly?
2008-02-10 16:51 < Dp67> i know.. thats what I was meaning.. cheaper than an FM adaptor
2008-02-10 16:51 * CharlotteWebb is looking at the episodes and characters case again
2008-02-10 16:51 < quanticle> mavhc: Tape adapters?
2008-02-10 16:51 < mavhc> yes
2008-02-10 16:52 < CharlotteWebb> 1) For the duration of this case, no editor shall redirect or delete any currently existing article regarding a television series episode or character; nor un-redirect or un-delete any currently redirected or deleted article on such a topic, nor apply or remove a tag related to notability to such an article. Administrators are authorized to revert such changes on sight, and to block any editors that persist in making them after being wa
2008-02-10 16:52 < mavhc> fm adaptors are only $10-20
2008-02-10 16:52 < quanticle> mavhc: Tape adapters plug into the 3.5mm headphone jack
2008-02-10 16:52 < CharlotteWebb> would depopulating categories and tagging them for speedy deletion violate the spirit (if not the letter) of that injunction
2008-02-10 16:52 < Dp67> it looks like a cassette tape with a headphone wire you just insert it like a tape and it plays
2008-02-10 16:52 < Sfan00> mavhc :(
2008-02-10 16:52 < mavhc> what now?
2008-02-10 16:52 < CharlotteWebb> any arbcom members or clerks around
2008-02-10 16:52 < quanticle> mavhc: Essentially they transmit the analog sound signal directly into the read head fo the tape player.,
2008-02-10 16:53 < jdstroy> Hey folks, can someone point me in the right direction for, erm, solving recurrence relations by generating functions?
2008-02-10 16:53 < mavhc> quanticle: I know, but I don't actually have an mp3 player, just my phone, the fm transmitter I should have ordered in advance is an mp3 player also, sd and usb sockets
2008-02-10 16:54 < Dp67> that blows.. my phone has a headphone jack
2008-02-10 16:56 < mavhc> mine does after plugging in an adaptor, but only 35MB ram free
2008-02-10 16:56 < Seddon> CharlotteWebb - from experience its better just not to risk it
2008-02-10 16:57 < CharlotteWebb> i'm not the one risking it
2008-02-10 16:57 < CharlotteWebb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/TTN
2008-02-10 17:00 < quanticle> mavhc: You don't have the option to plug in a SD card or something?
2008-02-10 17:00 < Seddon> btw i am aware of this case, am involved with a case at MedCab that overlaps
2008-02-10 17:00 < mavhc> no, as I don't make phone calls I have to pay real prices for my phone
2008-02-10 17:00 < mavhc> if I bought a new one it would, but this one's only 2 years old
2008-02-10 17:01 < quanticle> Say, can someone look at the table under [[Glass#Glass Production]]
2008-02-10 17:01 < quanticle> What on earth are the units on that table?
2008-02-10 17:01 < zvook> why does TTN need to be so confrontational? it's wikihurt central where he descends
2008-02-10 17:03 < Dp67> don't have the slightest idea quanticle
2008-02-10 17:03 < CharlotteWebb> for that matter why is he not banned yet
2008-02-10 17:04 < quanticle> Dp67: What's the point of having that data then, if its ununderstandable.
2008-02-10 17:04 < quanticle> Is it really so hard to give temperature as Celcius (under 1 atmosphere of pressure)
2008-02-10 17:04 < Dp67> be WP:BOLD and delete it.. lol
2008-02-10 17:04 < gwern> ' I'll have more to say another time about Turing who invented the computer just to prove a theorem, but long before Stonewall he refused to deny his affection for men at a time in my lifetime when England jailed people for whom they liked and got prosecuted for his courage even though he had single-handedly turned back the Nazis by parachuting onto an Enigma factory to steal one of the machines. I think I have that right.'
2008-02-10 17:05 < Seddon> hang on
2008-02-10 17:05 < Seddon> wait for a second
2008-02-10 17:05 < Seddon> it isnt a measure of temperature
2008-02-10 17:06 < Seddon> this is a different measurement, its a measurement of viscosity
2008-02-10 17:06 < Dp67> neutons I think
2008-02-10 17:06 < Dp67> or newtons
2008-02-10 17:07 < Seddon> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7201967.html
2008-02-10 17:07 < Seddon> shows that this unit is real
2008-02-10 17:08 < quanticle> Seddon: Well, regardless of the unit, should that table even be in an introductory article on glass?
2008-02-10 17:08 < Seddon> no, should be moved to glass production preferably
2008-02-10 17:08 < quanticle> Seddon: I'll take care of it.
2008-02-10 17:08 < NotACow> quanticle: every wikipedia article should be written at a level that only an expert on the subject can possibly appreciate it.
2008-02-10 17:09 < NotACow> quanticle: ideally an article on "glass" should talk entirely about how trace elements alter the production process and make no mention of the fact that glass is used to make containers to hold drinks
2008-02-10 17:10 < Sfan00> quanticle: Can you hop into Wikinews?
2008-02-10 17:10 < quanticle> Sfan00: I'm there
2008-02-10 17:11 < Scott5114> Would anyone happen to know where to get the software for the unilinky bot?
2008-02-10 17:11 < Scott5114> I know I've seen it available for download on its creator's website but I can't find it
2008-02-10 17:12 < quanticle> NotACow: Heh. That's how it seems sometimes
2008-02-10 17:37 < Mike_H> it's quiet :o
2008-02-10 17:37 < Mike_H> this room needs MOAR OLIVIA
2008-02-10 17:37 < Mike_H> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LitWc5mzFCM
2008-02-10 17:53 * quanticle hears rustling in the bushes
2008-02-10 18:11 < White_Cat> quanticle its me
2008-02-10 18:11 < White_Cat> I am attacking bush
2008-02-10 18:12 * quanticle edges away from White_Cat
2008-02-10 18:12 < quanticle> "I swear, officer, he has nothing to do with me!"
2008-02-10 18:15 < White_Cat> I happen to be the officer
2008-02-10 18:15 < White_Cat> and I wager you are lying
2008-02-10 18:15 * White_Cat bets
2008-02-10 18:15 < White_Cat> darn I lost a lot of money O_o
2008-02-10 18:15 * White_Cat makes Tony_Sidaway pay
2008-02-10 18:15 < White_Cat> Tony_Sidaway btw you out there?
2008-02-10 18:20 * amidaniel skins White_Cat
2008-02-10 18:27 < Lubaf> These are days of miracle and wonder...
2008-02-10 18:35 < Tony_Sidaway> White_Cat: eh oh!
2008-02-10 18:35 < quanticle> Heh - http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/10/2011257
2008-02-10 18:36 < White_Cat> yay
2008-02-10 18:36 < quanticle> Linux kernel just got 0-day'd
2008-02-10 18:36 * White_Cat pounces Tony_Sidaway...
2008-02-10 18:36 < White_Cat> quanticle I cant read italian
2008-02-10 18:36 < wimt> quanticle, yeah. Luckily vmsplice isn't compiled into ubuntu's kernel by default.
2008-02-10 18:37 < quanticle> wimt: Yes it is.
2008-02-10 18:37 < White_Cat> Tony_Sidaway do you recall the days we had an article per pokemon species?
2008-02-10 18:37 < quanticle> wimt: I just tested this on an ubuntu box
2008-02-10 18:37 < wimt> quanticle, oh? Default install?
2008-02-10 18:37 < quanticle> wimt: Ubuntu server - which is even more scary, in a way
2008-02-10 18:37 < wimt> quanticle, ah right, yeah
2008-02-10 18:38 < wimt> More scary in theory, but less of a problem for me ;-)
2008-02-10 18:39 < White_Cat> heretic!
2008-02-10 18:39 * White_Cat crucifies you a bit with a large trout
2008-02-10 18:39 < wimt> It means there are gonna have to be a lot of server reboots when a fix emerges.
2008-02-10 18:40 < quanticle> wimt: Heh. Yeah.
2008-02-10 18:41 < White_Cat> wimt well
2008-02-10 18:41 < White_Cat> imagine that
2008-02-10 18:41 < White_Cat> server reset
2008-02-10 18:42 < Dp67> figures.. its a debian bug
2008-02-10 18:45 < quanticle> Dp67: Nope. Generic kernel bug
2008-02-10 18:45 < quanticle> Dp67: I've reproduced it in Fedora.
2008-02-10 18:45 < quanticle> Dp67: And I've heard that its reproducible on Slackware.
2008-02-10 18:48 < White_Cat> quanticle awww
2008-02-10 18:48 < White_Cat> quanticle why would you care?
2008-02-10 18:48 * White_Cat cant understand peoples fascination with OS f*** ups
2008-02-10 18:49 < quanticle> White_Cat: I don't. I just don't want anyone to have a false sense of security.
2008-02-10 18:49 * White_Cat doesnt have a sense of security
2008-02-10 18:49 < quanticle> White_Cat: Well, my local university computer club runs a vulnerable server, so I have a horse in this race.
2008-02-10 18:49 < White_Cat> run m$ products
2008-02-10 18:50 < White_Cat> they'd be insecure but at least you have someone to blame aside from your own self
2008-02-10 18:50 < quanticle> White_Cat: Heh.
2008-02-10 18:55 < Dp67> cant do it here
2008-02-10 18:56 < Tony_Sidaway> White_Cat: there are probably thousands of pokemon species. I find the suggestion that we ever came close to one article per species somewhat improbable.
2008-02-10 18:57 < White_Cat> not thousands
2008-02-10 18:57 < White_Cat> actualy less than a thousand
2008-02-10 18:58 < White_Cat> Tony_Sidaway we have
2008-02-10 18:58 < White_Cat> they were mass blanked with inadequate discussion
2008-02-10 18:58 < White_Cat> which is the other extreme I dislike
2008-02-10 18:58 * Ceiling_Cat returns
2008-02-10 18:58 < White_Cat> either extereme seems problematic
2008-02-10 18:58 < ninja_cat> does anyone ever use the view new posts, mark forums read, etc. buttons on forums?
2008-02-10 18:58 < White_Cat> Tony_Sidaway would you consider it a problem if the related species are grouped together?
2008-02-10 18:59 < White_Cat> Tony_Sidaway typicaly each species have 2 or 3 evolutions
2008-02-10 18:59 < White_Cat> so thats the species counter divided by 2 or 3
2008-02-10 18:59 < White_Cat> its not a compromise from quality.
2008-02-10 19:09 < Lubaf> Like a bridge over troubled Edits, I will revert you repeatedly...
2008-02-10 19:16 < Lubaf> Lie lie lie - lie lie lie lie - lie lie lie - lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie