freenode #wikipedia

2008-02-04 21:37 < Snowolf> Ashfire908: Xerox says it's Malay
2008-02-04 21:38 < Ashfire908> any translation sites for it
2008-02-04 21:38 < Snowolf> no idea
2008-02-04 21:52 < Mark_Ryan> Ashfire908: this might be useful: http://dictionary.bhanot.net/
2008-02-04 21:54 < Ashfire908> that would take forever
2008-02-04 21:54 < Mark_Ryan> yeah and half the words aren't in there
2008-02-04 21:54 * Mark_Ryan checked
2008-02-04 21:54 < Mark_Ryan> 'enak' means delicious, though
2008-02-04 21:55 < Ashfire908> i found a translator and it gave me like three words
2008-02-04 21:56 < Ashfire908> it choked on a block of text.
2008-02-04 21:56 < uncle_ed> I was interviewed last week for a documentary on Wikipedia
2008-02-04 21:56 < uncle_ed> "Truth In Numbers"
2008-02-04 21:56 < pengo> isn't that out yet?
2008-02-04 21:57 < pengo> different one i guess
2008-02-04 21:57 < uncle_ed> I dunno, when was it scheduled?
2008-02-04 21:57 < Messedrocker> i have a feeling truth in numbers is the new duke nukem forever
2008-02-04 21:57 < privatemusings> they should call it truth in numbers 2
2008-02-04 21:57 < pengo> ah k
2008-02-04 21:57 < uncle_ed> A hard-hitting look at the limits of neutrality?
2008-02-04 21:57 < privatemusings> then we can all pretend we saw the first one....
2008-02-04 21:57 * uncle_ed thinks it's fun being on probation
2008-02-04 21:58 * privatemusings wonders why ed is on probation?
2008-02-04 21:58 < uncle_ed> I get so much more done, now that I've been banned from Intelligent Desigin
2008-02-04 21:58 < privatemusings> http://wikidocumentary.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
2008-02-04 21:58 < uncle_ed> google ed poor probation
2008-02-04 21:58 < pengo> good work uncle_ed
2008-02-04 21:58 < uncle_ed> I'm notorious for "tendentious editing"
2008-02-04 21:58 < privatemusings> oh Hi ed! - I edited ID a tiny little bit as petesmiles once.....
2008-02-04 21:58 < pengo> uncle_ed: you can start working on monkey drive now
2008-02-04 21:59 < privatemusings> (oh, and I'm properly banned for 90 days at the mo.... my adjective is querulous...)
2008-02-04 21:59 < privatemusings> is tendentious better or worse than querulous?
2008-02-04 21:59 < Messedrocker> privatemusings, if you tolerate the ban in indignated silence, it's all the better
2008-02-04 21:59 < privatemusings> I suck at that!
2008-02-04 22:00 < privatemusings> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm7ddqkgzFw
2008-02-04 22:00 < privatemusings> (hi messed by the way!)
2008-02-04 22:01 < uncle_ed> my contention that the article isn't neutral, has the page owners "fed up"
2008-02-04 22:01 < privatemusings> from recollection, would it be fair to say that your personal views are to a degree 'pro' intelligent design?
2008-02-04 22:01 < privatemusings> (and if you'd rather not talk about it - no worries...!)
2008-02-04 22:02 < NotACow> 2m2o2o
2008-02-04 22:02 < privatemusings> g'day non cow.....
2008-02-04 22:02 < uncle_ed> I used to be able to separate my personal views from my writing
2008-02-04 22:02 < Messedrocker> notacow english plz
2008-02-04 22:03 * NotACow hits Messedrocker
2008-02-04 22:03 < Snowolf> better than french :P
2008-02-04 22:03 < Messedrocker> snowolf shut
2008-02-04 22:04 < LuciferTiger> wiki means quick right?
2008-02-04 22:04 < privatemusings> yup
2008-02-04 22:04 < Ashfire908> wiki wiki is hawinia for fast
2008-02-04 22:04 < Ashfire908> er quick
2008-02-04 22:04 < LuciferTiger> hmmm makes u wonder what wikipedia means
2008-02-04 22:05 < uncle_ed> privatemusings: It's a dispute over whether Wikipedia should endorse certain "clearly true" points of view
2008-02-04 22:05 < LuciferTiger> wiki+pedo
2008-02-04 22:05 < IceKarma> why, it's an obvious portmanteau of wiki(wiki) + (encyclo)pedia :P
2008-02-04 22:05 < LuciferTiger> a quick way to make kids i guess
2008-02-04 22:05 < LuciferTiger> IceKarma: ofcourse i know what it really means
2008-02-04 22:05 < LuciferTiger> i was just setting up a poor joke there.
2008-02-04 22:06 * uncle_ed likes poor jokes
2008-02-04 22:06 < uncle_ed> Speaking of poor jokes, what's the latest news on Britney Spears?
2008-02-04 22:06 < LuciferTiger> her life is one bad joke
2008-02-04 22:06 < LuciferTiger> poor != bad
2008-02-04 22:06 < Messedrocker> uncle_ed, she's still a person
2008-02-04 22:07 < uncle_ed> I said I like poor jokes, not bad jokes.
2008-02-04 22:07 < Messedrocker> uncle_ed, what do you call someone who lives on welfare?
2008-02-04 22:07 < Messedrocker> A DEMOCRAT LOLOLOL
2008-02-04 22:07 < Messedrocker> </poor joke>
2008-02-04 22:07 < uncle_ed> lol
2008-02-04 22:07 < LuciferTiger> shes a Messedpopper if you may
2008-02-04 22:07 < gwern> she's a very low-brow joke
2008-02-04 22:07 < LuciferTiger> <poor joke />
2008-02-04 22:07 < uncle_ed> Kerry got the majority of the "under 30K" income bracket
2008-02-04 22:08 < uncle_ed> Kerry and Bush split the median "30K to 50K" bracket
2008-02-04 22:08 < LuciferTiger> the under 30K income bracket voted more like against bush
2008-02-04 22:10 < uncle_ed> If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.
2008-02-04 22:10 < privatemusings> that's the youtube!
2008-02-04 22:10 < vonerich> read: black people
2008-02-04 22:10 < privatemusings> what's the "clearly true" bit?
2008-02-04 22:10 < LuciferTiger> wiki = quick. pedo = pertaining to kids, eia and heia: expressing joy or surprise [well!]; in exhortation , [come on].
2008-02-04 22:10 < LuciferTiger> so.... either someones really surprised at how quickly they made a kid....
2008-02-04 22:11 < LuciferTiger> or someones going "COME ON, my biological clock is ticking, lets make kids...FAST"
2008-02-04 22:12 < LuciferTiger> or maybe quickfooted is a lot simpler explanation
2008-02-04 22:12 < gwern> uncle_ed: oh noes, please won't someone think of the children?
2008-02-04 22:13 < LuciferTiger> that woud definitely explain how i go from one relevant article to something obscure really fast on wikipedia
2008-02-04 22:13 < privatemusings> any other manics fans out there?
2008-02-04 22:13 < privatemusings> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_Street_Preachers
2008-02-04 22:14 < privatemusings> that article's lead needs fixing too, by the way folks....
2008-02-04 22:15 * Messedrocker likes "Hispanic Street Preachers"
2008-02-04 22:16 < fossa> "Their music is characteristically unique" Give me a break.
2008-02-04 22:16 < uncle_ed> Buffalo Eskimo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgF3MeT8eHA
2008-02-04 22:17 < gwern> uniquely unique?
2008-02-04 22:17 < privatemusings> very unique
2008-02-04 22:17 < privatemusings> i like that one.
2008-02-04 22:18 < privatemusings> listening to the lo-fi eskimo, ed
2008-02-04 22:18 < privatemusings> is that you on guitar?
2008-02-04 22:18 < privatemusings> ;-)
2008-02-04 22:18 < uncle_ed> http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=302901629
2008-02-04 22:18 < uncle_ed> No, it's my boss's son and 2 friends - try the myspace link for a better recording
2008-02-04 22:19 < uncle_ed> Their album title stems from a Wikipedia article!
2008-02-04 22:19 < privatemusings> i hope the contributors are referenced....
2008-02-04 22:19 < privatemusings> we might get them on a GFDL technicality....
2008-02-04 22:20 < fossa> uncle_ed: there's loads of talent on youtube and you advocate, this , err, thing?
2008-02-04 22:20 * IceKarma idly promotes Esmée Denters
2008-02-04 22:20 < privatemusings> hey - they're alright.....
2008-02-04 22:20 < privatemusings> i reckon.
2008-02-04 22:21 < privatemusings> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hpkP2mb4SA
2008-02-04 22:21 < uncle_ed> http://tinyurl.com/2hp3gc
2008-02-04 22:21 < privatemusings> she's for real you know....
2008-02-04 22:22 < privatemusings> ed - that article lead needs fixing too....
2008-02-04 22:22 < privatemusings> fewer elephants.
2008-02-04 22:22 < uncle_ed> In other news, I seem to have picked up 2 barnstars AND been sentenced to the Village Stocks
2008-02-04 22:23 < doomssassin> Ive got 73 barnstars.
2008-02-04 22:23 < fossa> doomssassin: we're very impessed
2008-02-04 22:24 < privatemusings> i like the stocks page!
2008-02-04 22:25 < privatemusings> i remember you deleting VfD
2008-02-04 22:25 < privatemusings> happy days...!!
2008-02-04 22:26 < privatemusings> incidentally - there have been similar things going on just today i think....
2008-02-04 22:26 < Messedrocker> privatemusings, how long have you been on wikipedia?
2008-02-04 22:26 < privatemusings> well, I registered my first account in 2005, but had been fiddling for a while before...
2008-02-04 22:27 < privatemusings> Oct / Nov 04...
2008-02-04 22:27 < privatemusings> I remember coming across Ed pretty early on - so it's a pleasure to say hi!
2008-02-04 22:28 < Messedrocker> i'm a november 2004er too
2008-02-04 22:28 < Messedrocker> but i've only heard your name recently
2008-02-04 22:28 < privatemusings> I wiki gnomed exclusively until early 06 really
2008-02-04 22:28 < privatemusings> only 1,000 edits or so before that....
2008-02-04 22:29 < Messedrocker> i've been more or less a gnome until 2006 as well
2008-02-04 22:29 < Messedrocker> but i haven't heard of "privatemusings" until like
2008-02-04 22:29 < privatemusings> but i was interested in seeing how it all worked, and am familiar with many of the goings on...
2008-02-04 22:29 < Messedrocker> december, at the latest
2008-02-04 22:29 < Messedrocker> or earliest
2008-02-04 22:30 < uncle_ed> fossa: I offered to produce their album
2008-02-04 22:30 < Messedrocker> i didn't know ABC did album productions
2008-02-04 22:30 < uncle_ed> I lost count after 40,000 edits
2008-02-04 22:31 < uncle_ed> I created [[Intelligent Design]] in late 2001
2008-02-04 22:31 < fossa> uncle_ed: whose album?
2008-02-04 22:31 < uncle_ed> Buffalo Eskimo
2008-02-04 22:31 < privatemusings> is that your trade, or a hobby?
2008-02-04 22:31 < uncle_ed> ...probably chosen as deliberately incongruous elements
2008-02-04 22:32 < uncle_ed> Music production is just a hobby with me. I'm a computer programmer by trade.
2008-02-04 22:33 < uncle_ed> Messedrocker: I quit ABC a year ago.
2008-02-04 22:33 < privatemusings> messed : I was 'purples' before privatemusings - and another account before that which is kinda a little bit connected to my RL
2008-02-04 22:33 < privatemusings> ID's a tricky one....
2008-02-04 22:34 < privatemusings> (does that win obvious statement of the year award?)
2008-02-04 22:35 < privatemusings> messed and ed (and anyone!) - I was thinking of looking at skypecasts at some point - interested at all?
2008-02-04 22:35 < privatemusings> kinda like the wikipedia weekly thing you used to do
2008-02-04 22:35 < privatemusings> but more open?
2008-02-04 22:37 < _aib> I went to list an article for deletion and found it had already been nominate for deletion once and voted for keep. However, I believe the article should be deletion, and there was almost no discussion
2008-02-04 22:37 < privatemusings> any reason not to just relist?
2008-02-04 22:37 < _aib> The article is [[Gabriel Murphy]]. This happens to be the boss of a friend of mine. I know he wrote the article himself
2008-02-04 22:38 < _aib> and he is non-notable
2008-02-04 22:38 < privatemusings> I'd probably just relist it saying it's non notable - the friend's boss thing is kinda irrelevant really, and just raises the temperature....
2008-02-04 22:38 < _aib> what do I do with the contents of the AfD page?
2008-02-04 22:39 < _aib> ..?
2008-02-04 22:40 < privatemusings> hang on a mo...
2008-02-04 22:40 < _aib> [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gabriel_Murphy]]
2008-02-04 22:40 < privatemusings> you do something clever like move it to '1st nom' or something...
2008-02-04 22:40 < privatemusings> p'raps pop a note on a friendly admin's talk page, and wait a while
2008-02-04 22:40 < privatemusings> or maybe there's one here?
2008-02-04 22:46 < mrshlee> Hello - I've got an issue with an editor speed-deleting articles in userspace. He deleted an CoS related article and seems to be in the CoS.
2008-02-04 22:48 < PB54> Hello
2008-02-04 22:48 < The359> CoS?
2008-02-04 22:49 < privatemusings> scientology i guess
2008-02-04 22:49 < Messedrocker> church of scientology
2008-02-04 22:49 < mrshlee> yeah - Can we warn the editor against his obvious bias.
2008-02-04 22:50 < The359> how can he be deleting them?
2008-02-04 22:51 < The359> Or do you just mean they are nominating the articles?
2008-02-04 22:52 < mrshlee> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anonymousfishinthesea
2008-02-04 22:53 < The359> I don't see him deleting anything
2008-02-04 22:56 < Mopper> Anyone know why the toolserver is down? Or at least one part of it.
2008-02-04 22:56 < Nakon> Mopper: it's always been flaky
2008-02-04 22:56 < Mopper> What's the reason for the latest flaking?
2008-02-04 22:56 < The359> because you touch yourself at night
2008-02-04 22:56 < Mopper> The359: Bad
2008-02-04 22:56 < Mopper> :P
2008-02-04 22:57 < The359> I try
2008-02-04 22:58 < Mopper> Anyone know when the toolserver will be back up?
2008-02-04 22:59 < Nakon> Mopper: soon
2008-02-04 22:59 < Nakon> #wikimedia-toolserver will probably be better able to help you
2008-02-04 22:59 < Mopper> Thanks!
2008-02-04 23:00 < zocky> ah, we have a FA on [[Knut]], but not on [[Donald Knuth]]
2008-02-04 23:00 < zocky> how surprising :\
2008-02-04 23:01 < The359> who?
2008-02-04 23:02 < zocky> who what?
2008-02-04 23:02 < Ceiling_Cat> zocky - [[Knut (polar bear)]]
2008-02-04 23:02 < Ceiling_Cat> :)
2008-02-04 23:02 < zocky> knut = the polar bear in the berlin zoo, donald knuth = one of the most important computer scientists ever
2008-02-04 23:03 * Ceiling_Cat is in zocky's Art of Programming book, watching him code
2008-02-04 23:03 < Messedrocker> i could never learn programming out of a book
2008-02-04 23:03 < Messedrocker> i have to have someone teach it and explain it to me
2008-02-04 23:03 * The359 sticks with who?
2008-02-04 23:03 < zocky> hey, how many books do i need to translate before I can write an article about myself, with contact info and rates?
2008-02-04 23:04 < Nakon> zocky: 11ty
2008-02-04 23:05 < Ceiling_Cat> Messedrocker - my son, I have one for you
2008-02-04 23:05 < Ceiling_Cat> http://www.byteofpython.info/read/
2008-02-04 23:05 < Ceiling_Cat> BEST PROGRAMMING TUTORIAL EVER
2008-02-04 23:05 < Messedrocker> Ceiling_Cat, that is my bookmark
2008-02-04 23:05 < Messedrocker> when i have vast amounts of time i will learn python that way
2008-02-04 23:05 < Ceiling_Cat> It took me 90 minutes
2008-02-04 23:06 < Ceiling_Cat> it's a very easy language, and a very well written tutorial
2008-02-04 23:06 < zocky> ah, the famous leaning code of python
2008-02-04 23:06 < Ceiling_Cat> although granted I don't know all of the under-the-hood stuff
2008-02-04 23:06 < Messedrocker> i think i should print it out
2008-02-04 23:06 < amidaniel> Messedrocker: Hmm .. that's the only way I can learn programming languages :)
2008-02-04 23:06 < zocky> listen, kids: WHITESPACE IS NOT CODE, mmkay?
2008-02-04 23:07 * Ceiling_Cat is having a terrible time getting the ambiition to do anyhting on-wiki
2008-02-04 23:07 < Messedrocker> it'd be easier to concentrate with a printed document
2008-02-04 23:07 < Messedrocker> also it'd be easier to annotate
2008-02-04 23:07 < amidaniel> zocky: hehe
2008-02-04 23:07 < Ceiling_Cat> I need to schedule a whole bunch of FAs and then go on vacation
2008-02-04 23:07 < Ceiling_Cat> to get me out of this funk
2008-02-04 23:07 < zocky> Ceiling_Cat, I know a lot of the under-the-hood stuff, and python is full of brilliant concepts, but I would never ever code in it
2008-02-04 23:07 < Messedrocker> Ceiling_Cat, do you know enough to write your own sockets and shit?
2008-02-04 23:07 < Leslie_S> http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/02/04/funny-pictures-maybi-iz-maybelleen/
2008-02-04 23:07 < amidaniel> zocky: At least it teaches people that you need to write semi-legibly-indented code
2008-02-04 23:07 < Leslie_S> lol
2008-02-04 23:07 < Ceiling_Cat> Messedrocker - socks? Python requires no such crazy low-level concepts
2008-02-04 23:07 < amidaniel> Something almost everyone seems to have trouble with
2008-02-04 23:07 < Ceiling_Cat> sockets*
2008-02-04 23:08 < Ceiling_Cat> (although it does actually support it now that I google for it -- http://docs.python.org/lib/module-socket.html )
2008-02-04 23:08 < uncle_ed> PHP wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be.
2008-02-04 23:08 < amidaniel> PHP
2008-02-04 23:08 < Leslie_S> php is easy as hell
2008-02-04 23:08 < amidaniel> 's easy as pie *
2008-02-04 23:08 < Leslie_S> PHP sockets are pretty hard though
2008-02-04 23:08 < Leslie_S> i wrote a PHP irc bot once, lol
2008-02-04 23:09 < amidaniel> Although it's a disgusting ass language
2008-02-04 23:09 < Ceiling_Cat> php is like herpes - nobody wants it, but once you get it you're stuck with it
2008-02-04 23:09 < Leslie_S> interesting experience.
2008-02-04 23:09 < amidaniel> Leslie_S: That's why there are libraries :)
2008-02-04 23:09 < amidaniel> Ceiling_Cat: Good summary :)
2008-02-04 23:09 < uncle_ed> Well, the neat thing is the way it runs on the server
2008-02-04 23:09 < Leslie_S> amidaniel well, i did successfully write something that could connect to irc and remain connected
2008-02-04 23:09 < Messedrocker> Ceiling_Cat, do you (that's you as a person, not general you) know how to write python web pages?
2008-02-04 23:09 < Ceiling_Cat> Messedrocker - python web pages....?
2008-02-04 23:09 < Leslie_S> amidaniel itd die every once in a while, but i think it was a script on the toolserver killing it...but it responded to pings as neccessary to remain connected.
2008-02-04 23:10 < Messedrocker> Ceiling_Cat, there are some web pages that are .py
2008-02-04 23:10 < Ceiling_Cat> as in, dynamic webpages generated by a python script?>
2008-02-04 23:10 < Messedrocker> yes
2008-02-04 23:10 < zocky> php = BASIC for web
2008-02-04 23:10 < Ceiling_Cat> Messedrocker - .py is the extension for a python executable
2008-02-04 23:10 < IceKarma> Ceiling_Cat, just for you - http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/01/bass-bass-bass/
2008-02-04 23:10 < Messedrocker> i know Ceiling_Cat
2008-02-04 23:10 < zocky> php would be a good language if it wasn't so god damn crappy
2008-02-04 23:10 < Ceiling_Cat> IceKarma - very amusing
2008-02-04 23:10 < Leslie_S> amidaniel the thing that kinda killed the project was that i couldnt figure out what i could do with it that would actually be useful and wikipedia related....
2008-02-04 23:10 < Leslie_S> wow zocky, ....
2008-02-04 23:10 < Leslie_S> i always liked php.
2008-02-04 23:10 < amidaniel> Leslie_S: Haha, so it was just coding for the sake of coding? :P
2008-02-04 23:11 < Ceiling_Cat> Messedrocker - you'd need support from the webserver to generate dynmic pages using python
2008-02-04 23:11 < Ceiling_Cat> I'm not sure if apache can
2008-02-04 23:11 * ronabop suggests .bop for an ending on web pages.. http://us3.php.net/manual/en/security.hiding.php
2008-02-04 23:11 < Ceiling_Cat> assuming it could, I don't see why you couldn't do it
2008-02-04 23:11 < Leslie_S> amidaniel: yeah. i started coding and got to the point where "it couldnt ever possibly do anything useful."
2008-02-04 23:11 < zocky> i just want a normal mod_js with useful libraries
2008-02-04 23:11 < Ceiling_Cat> but php is the normal way to do that
2008-02-04 23:11 < Leslie_S> amidaniel it was running on the toolserver for a while though. never did anything. lol.
2008-02-04 23:11 < Demi> is zocky looking for some kind of server-side javascript module?
2008-02-04 23:12 < Ceiling_Cat> IceKarma - I *love* sphynx cats
2008-02-04 23:12 * Ceiling_Cat wants one
2008-02-04 23:12 < zocky> Demi, yes, but the ones I've seen so far are either teh suck, or they are "application servers" with way too much stuff
2008-02-04 23:12 < Ceiling_Cat> [[Image:2 Sphynx speeing.jpg]] <-- White_Cat_Zzz + brown_cat_nap
2008-02-04 23:13 < Demi> zocky - what's that standalone javascript interpreter library that couchdb uses?
2008-02-04 23:13 < Messedrocker> Ceiling_Cat, I am asking if *you* can
2008-02-04 23:13 < Demi> oh, spidermonkey
2008-02-04 23:13 < Messedrocker> as in, are you competant enough
2008-02-04 23:13 < IceKarma> Ceiling_Cat, I know, that's why I sent you Bass Bass Bass
2008-02-04 23:13 < Ceiling_Cat> Messedrocker - no, I don't even know if what you ask is possible
2008-02-04 23:13 < Demi> what does Messedrocker want?
2008-02-04 23:13 < Messedrocker> Ceiling_Cat, the Wikimania CFP is based in Python
2008-02-04 23:14 < Ceiling_Cat> Demi - to do with webpages in python what people use php for
2008-02-04 23:14 < Demi> fucking them up?
2008-02-04 23:14 < Ceiling_Cat> generate them dynamically
2008-02-04 23:14 < Messedrocker> well in that case, how easy is it for PHP to interface with python scripts?
2008-02-04 23:14 < Demi> you mean a python templating framework?
2008-02-04 23:14 < zocky> sure you can do that i python
2008-02-04 23:14 < zocky> *in
2008-02-04 23:14 < ronabop> http://www.modpython.org/
2008-02-04 23:14 < Ceiling_Cat> ah, ok
2008-02-04 23:14 < Demi> python comes with a basic webserver too
2008-02-04 23:15 < Messedrocker> does the toolserver have modpython?
2008-02-04 23:15 < Demi> and your normal "start embedded webserver, register a handler for /whatever" and you're off to the races
2008-02-04 23:15 < Demi> there's also Pylons
2008-02-04 23:15 < Leslie_S> im really sick of people in real life asking me if im male or female.
2008-02-04 23:15 < Leslie_S> why is it any of their business?
2008-02-04 23:15 < Leslie_S> :/
2008-02-04 23:16 < zocky> Leslie_S, so that they can decide whether you're pretty or handsome
2008-02-04 23:16 < Demi> http://arclanguage.org/item?id=722 <- i found this to actually be a not bad little survey of what people think is the hotness for terse dynamic web pages
2008-02-04 23:16 < Leslie_S> im HOT.
2008-02-04 23:16 < Leslie_S> :p
2008-02-04 23:16 < Demi> and something called CherryPy
2008-02-04 23:16 < Leslie_S> but who the hell goes into a genderbenderfriendly walmart and asks genderbenders what they are?
2008-02-04 23:16 < zocky> bah, I use mediawiki for dynamic webpages these days
2008-02-04 23:17 < Messedrocker> Leslie_S, if i were to confront you IRL not knowing who you were, i'd probably not ask
2008-02-04 23:17 < Demi> well, i was pointing Messedrocker at some stuff
2008-02-04 23:17 < zocky> if only it had a proper parser, it would be a decent tool
2008-02-04 23:17 < Messedrocker> and i'd work hard as hell to be gender neutral
2008-02-04 23:17 < Leslie_S> Mesousa EXACTLY!
2008-02-04 23:17 < Leslie_S> i mean Messedrocker
2008-02-04 23:17 < Leslie_S> Messedrocker but these people just..ask. without any other need to confront me.
2008-02-04 23:17 < zocky> Leslie_S, well, friendly curiosity, and all that stuff
2008-02-04 23:18 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Really? Methinks you're more politically correct IRL than on IRC.
2008-02-04 23:18 < Leslie_S> they also talk about us behind our back, asking what we are.
2008-02-04 23:18 < Demi> zocky - all the wikis basically have that problem, i like rST very much because it's a plain text format with a real document model
2008-02-04 23:18 < Messedrocker> quanticle, probably
2008-02-04 23:18 < Leslie_S> when i say us, im talking about me and another transsexual that works where i work
2008-02-04 23:18 < Leslie_S> :)
2008-02-04 23:18 < quanticle> Demi: What's rST?
2008-02-04 23:18 < Messedrocker> i don't believe in political correctness though
2008-02-04 23:18 < Messedrocker> i consider myself to be polite, not politically correct
2008-02-04 23:19 < Demi> quanticle - restructured text
2008-02-04 23:19 < Demi> reStructuredText
2008-02-04 23:19 < Mesousa> Leslie_S: Why you highlight me?
2008-02-04 23:19 < Demi> however you want to write it
2008-02-04 23:19 < zocky> Demi, I'm almost done with my current project, and my next project is translation, about 4 hours per day, so I think I'll finally write a replacement for mediawiki
2008-02-04 23:19 < quanticle> Mesousa: Mistake.
2008-02-04 23:19 < Mesousa> Okie.
2008-02-04 23:19 < Leslie_S> ...
2008-02-04 23:19 < quanticle> zocky: You're going to write a media wiki replacement? O_o
2008-02-04 23:20 < quanticle> Color me skeptical
2008-02-04 23:20 < zocky> quanticle, well, replacement for the kind of websites I need. i have no idea if it will be fast enough to run something like wikipedia
2008-02-04 23:21 < quanticle> zocky: Why don't you use one of the other wiki-engines out there.
2008-02-04 23:21 < Demi> okay, running to fred meyer
2008-02-04 23:21 * Demi &
2008-02-04 23:21 < zocky> quanticle, because they all suck even more than mediawiki
2008-02-04 23:22 < Demi> they don't, actually, depending what you want to do with them, but they all have the problem zocky is talking about with getting a tree out of the text
2008-02-04 23:22 < quanticle> zocky: Oh. Ok. So will it be a wiki engine or more of a content management system?
2008-02-04 23:22 * Demi really &
2008-02-04 23:22 < zocky> quanticle, I want something like semantic mediawiki, but that actually parses correctly, i.e. consistently, and where you can easily define new kinds of namespaces and what magic links/transclusion does for them
2008-02-04 23:23 < zocky> quanticle, it should work like mediawiki appears to work, but actually doesn't internally
2008-02-04 23:23 < quanticle> zocky: You're going to be making this in PHP, or Python?
2008-02-04 23:23 < zocky> quanticle, php or perl
2008-02-04 23:24 < Demi> zocky - you should look hard at twiki
2008-02-04 23:24 < quanticle> zocky: Why not Python?
2008-02-04 23:24 < zocky> quanticle, WHITESPACE IS NOT CODE GODDAMNIT
2008-02-04 23:24 < quanticle> zocky: I'd actually recommend perl for this, if those are your only options.
2008-02-04 23:24 < Demi> works for COBOL
2008-02-04 23:24 < quanticle> zocky: Despite all the perl haters out there.
2008-02-04 23:24 < zocky> anything but python is an option :)
2008-02-04 23:24 < quanticle> Demi: Not to mention FORTRAN
2008-02-04 23:25 * The359 codes in Visual Basic
2008-02-04 23:25 < zocky> I could do it in C and cache pages by compiling them to executables :)
2008-02-04 23:25 < Demi> there's an rST parser for Haskell
2008-02-04 23:25 < Demi> so you could use it, maybe, if you didn't like python
2008-02-04 23:25 < quanticle> zocky: Why not Java, then. You could do a JSP/Tomcat system that'd be cross compatible across databases, by using a persistence layer like Hibernate.
2008-02-04 23:25 < Demi> (of course haskell a certain amount of indentation-magic, too ...)
2008-02-04 23:25 < zocky> parsing is not a problem, I can write parsers
2008-02-04 23:26 < zocky> quanticle, yeah, java is an option, but i've never done much in java
2008-02-04 23:26 < Demi> don't write java, you'll be writing forever; java really is COBOL
2008-02-04 23:26 < Demi> try smalltalk and seaside
2008-02-04 23:26 < quanticle> zocky: Ah. Ok. The issue I have with PHP and Perl is that object-orientedness is kind of a stretch in either language, and for a system like this having proper OO would be an advantage.
2008-02-04 23:27 < Demi> i'm supposed to be taking my garbage out
2008-02-04 23:27 < Demi> i would like to review your concepts later
2008-02-04 23:27 * Demi & & &
2008-02-04 23:27 < zocky> actually, php may be the most appropriate for what my current plans are. i intend to produce most classes (i.e for namespaces, functions, pages, etc.) by templating
2008-02-04 23:28 < zocky> it should be completely configurable and extendable from inside the wiki
2008-02-04 23:30 < quanticle> Demi: Is Squeak a smalltalk framework?
2008-02-04 23:30 < quanticle> Oh. He left.
2008-02-04 23:30 < LuciferTiger> happens
2008-02-04 23:34 < zocky> quanticle, my current plan is to have a database much like what mediawiki has, a slightly more intelligent system for titles/urls, a sane parser, and have pages cached by translating them to php (or whatever target language) and saving them as files.
2008-02-04 23:35 < bumm13> hiya ggreer
2008-02-04 23:35 < CComMack> http://xkcd.com/353/
2008-02-04 23:38 < quanticle> CComMack: He already states that he hates Python.
2008-02-04 23:38 < bumm13> hiya quanticle
2008-02-04 23:39 < CComMack> Hey, I have no programming skills of my own at all, I just like the comic. Especially the punchline about the medicine cabinet
2008-02-04 23:39 < quanticle> zocky: Well, It doesn't make much sense to store pages as PHP files. Perhaps you should use perl to generate static HTML from the database...
2008-02-04 23:39 < zocky> quanticle, the thing is, I don't want static HTML
2008-02-04 23:39 < quanticle> zocky: Javascript
2008-02-04 23:40 < quanticle> Or ECMAScript as its called nowadays
2008-02-04 23:40 < zocky> quanticle, no, I mean, I don't want to have to purge pages like in mediawiki, and then have a workaround like the job queue
2008-02-04 23:40 < zocky> quanticle, i.e. when a template changes, I don't want to have to recache all the pages that use the template
2008-02-04 23:41 < zocky> OTOH, you still have to reparse the pages, so you can fix the link tables
2008-02-04 23:41 < Undeference> zocky: ssi
2008-02-04 23:42 < zocky> Undeference, ssi is just php lite :P
2008-02-04 23:42 < quanticle> What's SSI?
2008-02-04 23:42 < zocky> server-side includes
2008-02-04 23:42 < quanticle> Ah. Yeah. Its much easier to do this sort of thing in PHP rather than relying on a hack like SSI.
2008-02-04 23:43 < Mike_H> quanticle: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Furor_continues_a_week_after_Rep._Brown-Waite%27s_%22foreign%22_comment
2008-02-04 23:43 < Messedrocker> i have 99 printed pages
2008-02-04 23:43 < Messedrocker> what is the best way to bind them
2008-02-04 23:44 < zocky> what annoys me in mediawiki is that different kinds of links and transclusions are hardcoded into the browser, instead of distributed to namespace classes
2008-02-04 23:44 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Go to Kinkos.
2008-02-04 23:44 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Get a spiral binding.
2008-02-04 23:44 < zocky> i want the namespace::image class to decide what happens when the browser finds an [[image:foo]] link
2008-02-04 23:45 < Messedrocker> quanticle, isn't that expensive?
2008-02-04 23:45 < quanticle> Mike_H: Yeah. I didn't really understand how she could get away with calling Puerto Ricans "foreign".
2008-02-04 23:45 < zocky> oh, and another huge bug of mediawiki I want to get rid off is usage of extensions in file names
2008-02-04 23:46 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Not that expensive. If you don't have any time or money, I'd suggest looking around for a large binder clip.
2008-02-04 23:46 < zocky> wtf can you have separate [[foo.jpg]] and [[foo.jpeg]] on wiki?
2008-02-04 23:46 < Messedrocker> i'd prefer a spiral binding tbh
2008-02-04 23:46 < zocky> why not just [[image:foo]], and whatever you uploaded at that name is what you get?
2008-02-04 23:47 < Leslie_S> zocky because you might have a valid reason for food.png and foo.jpg to coexist?
2008-02-04 23:47 < Leslie_S> *foo.png
2008-02-04 23:47 < IceKarma> quanticle, what I can't fathom, though, are the Puerto Ricans who can't fathom that they don't live in a state
2008-02-04 23:47 < zocky> Leslie_S, no, you don't
2008-02-04 23:47 < zocky> Leslie_S, if it's a different picture, it needs a different name
2008-02-04 23:47 < Leslie_S> zocky what about foo.ogg and foo.jpg?
2008-02-04 23:47 < zocky> Leslie_S, [[sound:foo]] and [[image:foo]]
2008-02-04 23:48 < quanticle> IceKarma: Yet, whenever it seems to come up for referendum, Puerto Ricans vote to keep their weird pseudo-independent status.
2008-02-04 23:48 < Messedrocker> how easy is it to turn pages and such with spiral bindings?
2008-02-04 23:48 < Leslie_S> Bush speaking at Iraq bullshit rally.ogg and Bush speaking at Iraq bullshit rally.jpg
2008-02-04 23:48 < zocky> if the two files aren't treated the same when linked on a wiki page, they should be in different namespaces
2008-02-04 23:48 < Leslie_S> zocky you know what bugs me more though, is its possible to have Foo.JPG and Foo.jpg.
2008-02-04 23:48 < zocky> Leslie_S, yeah, that too
2008-02-04 23:48 < quanticle> Messedrocker: You just hand over the pages and the Kinkos people put it into a binding machine.
2008-02-04 23:48 < Leslie_S> zocky or [[What ever]] and [[What Ever]]
2008-02-04 23:48 < zocky> Leslie_S, yeah, I won't allow that either
2008-02-04 23:49 < Messedrocker> yeah quanticle, but once the pages are bound, does it take much difficulty to turn the pages, or is it smooth?
2008-02-04 23:49 < Leslie_S> Messedrocker spiral bindings are really easy to turn pages in.
2008-02-04 23:49 < IceKarma> quanticle, given that many Puerto Ricans seem to think they already are a state, that -almost- makes a tiny bit of sense, if you looked at it as "changing what we have now" and "not changing it"
2008-02-04 23:49 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Its smoot.
2008-02-04 23:49 < Messedrocker> ok
2008-02-04 23:49 < Leslie_S> Messedrocker and you can fold it over on itself backwards, which is really useful
2008-02-04 23:49 < zocky> also, [[Dokovic]] and [[Đoković]] should link to the same page on an english-language wiki
2008-02-04 23:49 < Messedrocker> thx y'all
2008-02-04 23:49 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Its rather like a large pre-printed spiral notebook.
2008-02-04 23:49 < Leslie_S> Messedrocker its nearly the only kind of binding that you can do this with. wire-o is close but tends to catch where the rings are split
2008-02-04 23:50 < Leslie_S> WTF is the purpose of Wire-o binding anyway? doesnt spiral binding work better?
2008-02-04 23:50 < quanticle> Messedrocker: If you're really cheap, you could get a big 3-ring binder and hole punch your pages and stick it in there.
2008-02-04 23:50 < quanticle> Leslie_S: What is Wire-o?
2008-02-04 23:51 < zocky> Leslie_S, it's easier to bind
2008-02-04 23:51 < Messedrocker> quanticle, i don't thing i have a hole puncher big enough for a hundred pages
2008-02-04 23:51 < Leslie_S> quanticle its where you have the little o shaped wires that bind it, basically
2008-02-04 23:51 < zocky> Messedrocker, so you do them in batches? :)
2008-02-04 23:51 < Leslie_S> zocky hmm. but if its done by a machine anyway, .. ?
2008-02-04 23:51 < zocky> Leslie_S, have you seen how both are done?
2008-02-04 23:51 < Messedrocker> zocky, i risk having misaligned holes
2008-02-04 23:51 < Leslie_S> zocky no, the closest ive gotten is operating a paper drill
2008-02-04 23:52 < zocky> Messedrocker, that's why the punches have that plastic thingy
2008-02-04 23:52 < Leslie_S> zocky I know how perfect binding is done though, and thats ...pretty damn simple. :o
2008-02-04 23:52 * Leslie_S used to work on a perfect binder crew..
2008-02-04 23:53 * Leslie_S worked on a saddle stitch crew too. talk about simple there!
2008-02-04 23:53 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Doesn't matter if you misalign the hole if you don't try to put in all the pages at once.
2008-02-04 23:53 < Leslie_S> ever seen a saddle stitcher in operation?
2008-02-04 23:53 < zocky> Leslie_S, basically, you have this device for wire-o which punches the wholes, stretches the wire, and puts the holes onto the rings
2008-02-04 23:54 < zocky> Leslie_S, with real spiral, you have to punch the wholes, and screw in the spiral, which takes more space, and is more prone to getting stuck and bent
2008-02-04 23:54 < Leslie_S> zocky heh.
2008-02-04 23:54 < Leslie_S> zocky and actually, my mom used to be a wire-o operator now that i think about it. :o
2008-02-04 23:55 < Leslie_S> at the same company that i worked with all the other binding machines at (but they stopped doing wire-o before i started working there)
2008-02-04 23:55 < zocky> Messedrocker, the plastic thingy sticking out on the left: http://shop.mercedes-benzofmiltonkeynes.co.uk/catalog/images/MB185_PUN.jpg
2008-02-04 23:55 < quanticle> Messedrocker: Punch a batch and put them directly in the binder. Don't try to put them all in at once.
2008-02-04 23:56 < quanticle> Messedrocker: If you put in the batches as soon as you punch them rather than putting them all in at the end, misalignment becomes a non-issue, since all the holes within each individual batch are aligned properly.
2008-02-04 23:57 < TheWeasel> o.o
2008-02-04 23:57 < bumm13> wheeee!
2008-02-04 23:57 < LuciferTiger> its called quantum filing... as opposed to continuous filing...
2008-02-04 23:57 < TheWeasel> another case of citation needed meaning "I disagree, and my disagreement is a pet opinion."
2008-02-04 23:58 < zocky> {{totally disputed}}
2008-02-04 23:58 < TheWeasel> Like OMG so not true!
2008-02-04 23:58 < zocky> {{pəʇndsɪp ʎʅʅɐʇoʇ}}
2008-02-04 23:58 < Mike_H> TheWeasel: msg!
2008-02-04 23:59 < TheWeasel> Seriously, people who put four fact tags per sentence are trying too hard
2008-02-04 23:59 < bumm13> wheeee!
2008-02-04 23:59 < zocky> TheWeasel, maybe we should have {{bollocks}}
2008-02-04 23:59 < zocky> or {{yeah right}}
2008-02-04 23:59 < TheWeasel> Mike_H: Heh.
2008-02-05 00:00 * TheWeasel analyzes a surprisingly wild variation of the Alapin variation of the Sicilian
2008-02-05 00:00 < TheWeasel> {{treason}} is definitely called for.
2008-02-05 00:01 < LuciferTiger> ha.. i always used to wonder how the wikipedia guys managed all these articles and the citation needed stuff... did they read and review ALL the articles ever edited or what
2008-02-05 00:01 < LuciferTiger> cuz at that time i thought wikipedia had like employees on payroll doing all of this
2008-02-05 00:01 < CComMack> TheWeasel: For articles that will get us sued in a court of law in Trenton, New Jersey, sure
2008-02-05 00:02 < TheWeasel> Gitmo more like.
2008-02-05 00:02 < TheWeasel> Courts are so pre-9/11
2008-02-05 00:02 < bumm13> hiya Weasel
2008-02-05 00:02 < TheWeasel> morning
2008-02-05 00:02 < quanticle> Netsplit over?
2008-02-05 00:02 * CComMack is sad that the lore of old is dying....
2008-02-05 00:02 < zocky> {{patriot act}} which shows up as "Stay where you are, someone will be along shortly."
2008-02-05 00:03 < TheWeasel> I still like {{treason}}
2008-02-05 00:03 < FastLizard4|busy> NETSPLIT!
2008-02-05 00:03 < ninjapancake> no
2008-02-05 00:03 < LuciferTiger> there was a netsplit?
2008-02-05 00:03 < ninjapancake> no
2008-02-05 00:03 < ninjapancake> you are imagining it
2008-02-05 00:03 < ninjapancake> :P
2008-02-05 00:04 * bumm13 imagines ninjapancake
2008-02-05 00:04 < FastLizard4|busy> There was a netsplit
2008-02-05 00:04 < bumm13> :-)
2008-02-05 00:04 < zocky> clark.freenode.net had an existential crisis
2008-02-05 00:04 < TheWeasel> o.o using "we" or "let us look at" in Wikipedia
2008-02-05 00:05 < FastLizard4|busy> ChanServ died in that one
2008-02-05 00:05 < TheWeasel> Almost as weird as exclamation marks
2008-02-05 00:05 < zocky> TheWeasel, i saw one yesterday with "How did the linguist come up with this? See, they noticed that..."
2008-02-05 00:05 < TheWeasel> haha, nice
2008-02-05 00:06 < TheWeasel> "...you might ask. Well, ..."
2008-02-05 00:06 < FastLizard4|busy> I think everyone was affected by that one
2008-02-05 00:06 < Mike_H> http://bp0.blogger.com/_FBXGhy-QmVw/R6fQ7B6_m4I/AAAAAAAABfk/yQE6mupCVP8/s1600-h/card1275.JPG
2008-02-05 00:06 < TheWeasel> Especially cool when linked to a tourism advertisement
2008-02-05 00:07 < bumm13> there's a piece of hair in that photo :x
2008-02-05 00:07 < TheWeasel> "so you can say that X-ville, Indiana is a great place to work AND play!"
2008-02-05 00:07 < Mike_H> bumm13: you're ignoring the main point! :P
2008-02-05 00:07 < quanticle> Say, how do you add a personal "sandbox" subpage to your userpage?
2008-02-05 00:07 < ninjapancake> got some wood, and some sand
2008-02-05 00:07 * TheWeasel is a adheres to big-tent sanity
2008-02-05 00:08 < ninjapancake> clean sand
2008-02-05 00:08 * TheWeasel just discussed with a woman with an ideology I'd never come across before
2008-02-05 00:08 < TheWeasel> fundamentalist New Labour
2008-02-05 00:09 < bumm13> Mike_H: here's a website link I've been saving for you
2008-02-05 00:09 < TheWeasel> not on economics though, just society
2008-02-05 00:09 < bumm13> http://www.overheardatthebeach.com/
2008-02-05 00:09 < zocky> TheWeasel, what does that mean?
2008-02-05 00:09 < zocky> TheWeasel, telescreen in your bedroom?
2008-02-05 00:09 < TheWeasel> She was anti-religion but pro-nanny state
2008-02-05 00:09 < TheWeasel> both pretty hardcore
2008-02-05 00:09 < TheWeasel> it was odd.
2008-02-05 00:10 < Mike_H> bumm13: I'm working right now
2008-02-05 00:10 < Mike_H> will look later
2008-02-05 00:10 < bumm13> okie
2008-02-05 00:10 < LuciferTiger> whats pro-nanny?
2008-02-05 00:11 < TheWeasel> she said things like "we must look into families ruthlessly to take over responsibility for upbringing should they fail"
2008-02-05 00:11 < TheWeasel> (of the kids, the parents)
2008-02-05 00:11 < LuciferTiger> TheWeasel: that sounds awful lot like spartan communism
2008-02-05 00:11 < TheWeasel> she's not a communist
2008-02-05 00:11 < TheWeasel> I think she's a very pro-statist Social Democrat
2008-02-05 00:12 < zocky> TheWeasel, ah, since last 20 years of science contradict their basic assumptions (i.e. 100% nurture, 0% nature), they had to turn into fundamentalism
2008-02-05 00:12 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Its scary, is what it is...
2008-02-05 00:12 < zocky> TheWeasel, i know the type
2008-02-05 00:12 < LuciferTiger> anti religion + wants to monitor every family.
2008-02-05 00:12 < TheWeasel> nature always is a problem for society.
2008-02-05 00:12 < TheWeasel> We don't want to lock away people for being themselves.
2008-02-05 00:12 < quanticle> zocky: What do you mean, the last 20 years of science contradict them? Lots of studies recently have looked at the genetic components of personality.
2008-02-05 00:13 < zocky> quanticle, yes, and they've established that it's 45% genes, 50% unique experiences and peer groups, and 5% parenting
2008-02-05 00:13 < TheWeasel> heh
2008-02-05 00:13 < zocky> with the share of parenting gradually falling to 0 for adults
2008-02-05 00:14 * TheWeasel 's tts engine read "hassidic Jews" as "acidic Jews"
2008-02-05 00:14 < bumm13> heh
2008-02-05 00:14 < zocky> TheWeasel, haha
2008-02-05 00:14 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Well, may as well be the same, judging by their personalities :-P
2008-02-05 00:15 < TheWeasel> what's the English word for "the state of being a base"?
2008-02-05 00:15 < zvook> TheWeasel: is it your view that exclamations are unencylopedic?
2008-02-05 00:15 < TheWeasel> the opposite of acidicity I mean
2008-02-05 00:15 < Undeference> basic
2008-02-05 00:15 < TheWeasel> It is, outside of direct quotes
2008-02-05 00:15 < TheWeasel> basicity?
2008-02-05 00:15 < zvook> base.
2008-02-05 00:15 < kenlyric> the difference between kids with no authority figures in their lives and those with them is quite astonishing.
2008-02-05 00:16 < zocky> anyway, there are three ways people want to fix societies: (1) dog eat dog, and the result will be good, (2) setup a system which causes people to behave in desired ways, (3) micromanage people to behave in desired ways
2008-02-05 00:16 < TheWeasel> not necessarily authority, just taking an interest and acting on an edge of experience.
2008-02-05 00:16 < quanticle> zocky: Its number 3 that scares me the most.
2008-02-05 00:17 < zocky> quanticle, both (1) and (3) are naive and dangerous
2008-02-05 00:17 < kenlyric> TheWeasel: such a person becomes, by default, an authority figure.
2008-02-05 00:17 < zocky> that's why they both attract fundamentalists, IMO
2008-02-05 00:17 < quanticle> zocky: I figure I could get by in a dog eat dog world (not well, but I figure I'd survive). 2 is the best, of course, but I'd probably get myself imprisoned or worse under 3
2008-02-05 00:17 < TheWeasel> I guess a public order can give incentives for good behavior.
2008-02-05 00:17 < zocky> kenlyric, but the difference in adults who had authority figures as kids and those who didn't is negligible
2008-02-05 00:18 < TheWeasel> In dog eat dog worlds, people with the edge on their side will win, it's not hard to see
2008-02-05 00:18 < zocky> TheWeasel, they will still lose
2008-02-05 00:18 < TheWeasel> and we're in the west, so we have that edge.
2008-02-05 00:18 < TheWeasel> I'm sure they will.
2008-02-05 00:19 < zocky> TheWeasel, no, I don't mean that way :)
2008-02-05 00:19 < zvook> isn't the opposite of acidity alkalinity?
2008-02-05 00:19 < zocky> I mean, if you're a dominant person and still cooperate with other people, your share of the final loot will be proportionally smaller, but still larger in absolute terms, than if you don't cooperate with others
2008-02-05 00:20 < TheWeasel> ah, game theory
2008-02-05 00:20 < TheWeasel> I'm not in on that
2008-02-05 00:20 < zocky> well, or just a schoolyard fight :)
2008-02-05 00:20 < TheWeasel> but I guess total freedom is always an illusion.
2008-02-05 00:20 < TheWeasel> or total independence
2008-02-05 00:20 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Not necessarily. The West is outnumbered what, 5:1? 6:1? Your edge has to be pretty big for you to survive without any sort of rules...
2008-02-05 00:21 < TheWeasel> Bob Dylan once wrote "Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
2008-02-05 00:21 < zocky> quanticle, it's called "nukes"
2008-02-05 00:21 < TheWeasel> yea
2008-02-05 00:22 < TheWeasel> It's basic Hegel, freedom can only be freedom if it's voluntarily limited.
2008-02-05 00:22 < zocky> "free as a bird" = "free to be eaten by a cat", "free to vomit half-digested food to feed your kids", "free to have 2-bit thoughts"
2008-02-05 00:22 * TheWeasel has never been an anarchist
2008-02-05 00:22 < TheWeasel> hah
2008-02-05 00:23 < bumm13> tweet tweet!
2008-02-05 00:23 < quanticle> zocky: Its called, the East has them too.
2008-02-05 00:23 < TheWeasel> Is irrationality an advantage in game theory?
2008-02-05 00:23 < zocky> quanticle, the "west" = "countries coopted into the international economy order"
2008-02-05 00:23 < quanticle> zocky: I figure the US will be OK, since we have a navy, but Europe would be screwed.
2008-02-05 00:23 < zocky> quanticle, all the countries with nukes fit that description
2008-02-05 00:24 < LuciferTiger> http://www.bustedtees.com/shirt/18-1/male
2008-02-05 00:24 < quanticle> zocky: Even Pakistan?
2008-02-05 00:24 < zocky> yes, even pakistan
2008-02-05 00:24 * TheWeasel wonders if irrationality gives one an edge in game theory
2008-02-05 00:24 < zocky> TheWeasel, it does
2008-02-05 00:24 < TheWeasel> and how long it lasts
2008-02-05 00:24 < zocky> TheWeasel, self-delusion is a real thing, as is suicidal behavior
2008-02-05 00:25 < TheWeasel> but complete randomness isn't an optimal strategy is it
2008-02-05 00:25 < zocky> it's what protects week people from bullying - once you see that somebody is going to blow, you tend to back off, because you have no idea what disproportional measures they might use.
2008-02-05 00:26 < zocky> sure, they can get killed, but that doesn't help you much if you get killed to
2008-02-05 00:26 < zocky> o
2008-02-05 00:26 < zocky> *weak people
2008-02-05 00:26 < TheWeasel> yup.
2008-02-05 00:26 < zocky> so, them being irrational is a good strategy to force you to be rational
2008-02-05 00:26 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Not complete randomness, but a 5% chance of acting randomly is pretty good in most situations.
2008-02-05 00:27 < TheWeasel> but I imagine it only lasts so long until tyrannicide occurs
2008-02-05 00:27 < TheWeasel> ya
2008-02-05 00:32 * Mike_H pets privatemusings
2008-02-05 00:33 < bumm13> still working? ;)
2008-02-05 00:34 < quanticle> bumm13: Did you put up that quote site?
2008-02-05 00:34 < bumm13> no, it's just something I came across
2008-02-05 00:34 < bumm13> (I did post in here in the IRC channel ;)
2008-02-05 00:34 * amidaniel stabs someone at random
2008-02-05 00:35 < pengo> bumm13: i just read lots of that
2008-02-05 00:35 < pengo> bumm13: my faith in humanity has never been so uncertain
2008-02-05 00:35 < quanticle> bumm13: Heh. I spent the last 30 minutes perusing it.
2008-02-05 00:35 * Pumpmeup screams in pain and runs around in circles spurting blood out of their stab-hole
2008-02-05 00:35 < amidaniel> That made me feel much better :)
2008-02-05 00:36 < bumm13> it's amazing how dumb people can be
2008-02-05 00:36 * Pumpmeup is dead
2008-02-05 00:36 < bumm13> more than one quote about seeing Mexicans *in Mexico* ;p
2008-02-05 00:37 < bumm13> (implied as being bad that they're being seen by speaking person ;p )
2008-02-05 00:37 < StayTuned> have you guys seen the Obama Yes We Can video yet?
2008-02-05 00:37 * Mike_H pumps up Pumpmeup