freenode #wikipedia

2008-01-15 13:47 < kenlyric> I'm saying that wikipedia is not a democracy.
2008-01-15 13:47 < Ionas_Freeman> Guest76 : n
2008-01-15 13:47 < Guest76> ok.
2008-01-15 13:47 < Ionas_Freeman> Since WP is not democracy, THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
2008-01-15 13:47 < Demi> but there's a more fundamental problem with analogizing on the basis of who the admins are, which is that admins *are not supposed be legislators or the ruling class*.
2008-01-15 13:47 < Ceiling_Cat> any russians in the channel?
2008-01-15 13:47 < Guest76> ^_^
2008-01-15 13:48 * Ceiling_Cat has an article request
2008-01-15 13:48 < Orderinchaos> demi: some think they are sadly :/
2008-01-15 13:48 < Guest76> ^_^ != russain
2008-01-15 13:48 < kenlyric> Demi: but that's what they end up being, either out of necessity or in some cases a real desire for control.
2008-01-15 13:48 < Guest76> *russian
2008-01-15 13:48 < Ceiling_Cat> Russians have a concept of "Vozhd", the big boss
2008-01-15 13:49 * Ceiling_Cat wants an article on it
2008-01-15 13:49 < Orderinchaos> I've seen some rather power-thirsty admins in my time on here. some of it is just plain scary (more for mental health concerns than anything else)
2008-01-15 13:49 < Demi> kenlyric - yes
2008-01-15 13:49 < Ionas_Freeman> if WP were democratic (nonhierarchical, power in the people's hands, consensus-based) I think there would be a lot better system
2008-01-15 13:49 < kenlyric> in a true representative wikipedia, Jimbo would be up for election periodically has the fanboy idol.
2008-01-15 13:49 < quanticle> Demi: I finally found the quote that scares me so much about Rudy: "We look upon authority too often and focus over and over again, for 30 or 40 or 50 years, as if there is something wrong with authority. We see only the oppressive side of authority. Maybe it comes out of our history and our background. What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. Freedom is about authori
2008-01-15 13:49 < kenlyric> *as the fanboy idol
2008-01-15 13:49 < Ionas_Freeman> and values of cooperation and good-faith-assumptions, kind of like [[MeatballWiki]]
2008-01-15 13:50 < quanticle> Demi: He said that in 1994
2008-01-15 13:50 < Guest76> it is.. isn't it everyone has the similiar article rights..
2008-01-15 13:50 < shimgray> in a true representative wikipedia, we'd spend all our time wanking about elections
2008-01-15 13:50 < Orderinchaos> shimgray: don't we already? :P
2008-01-15 13:50 < Guest76> representive gov. sucks balls
2008-01-15 13:51 < Guest76> who would you rather have speaking for you? you or someone else
2008-01-15 13:51 < Ionas_Freeman> I think ArbCom is Wikipedia's problem, where all that hierarchical bullshit clogs up the spirit of openness.
2008-01-15 13:51 < Orderinchaos> Ionas_Freeman: the trouble is that as wikipedia has grown (and I don't even claim to be an old hand - I first registered not quite two years ago) the increasing number of people has resulted in a failure of consensus in many places
2008-01-15 13:51 < Guest76> take out the middle man
2008-01-15 13:51 < kenlyric> me.
2008-01-15 13:51 < kenlyric> but I'm concerned about the other 200 million idiotic ones.
2008-01-15 13:51 < Cyrius> Ionas_Freeman: you have a better idea?
2008-01-15 13:51 < quanticle> Guest76: As Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst of all systems, except for all the others."
2008-01-15 13:51 < Guest76> kenlyric: hence democracy
2008-01-15 13:51 < Ionas_Freeman> Orderinchaos: I agree 100%
2008-01-15 13:51 < kenlyric> I need something to filter thier shit.
2008-01-15 13:51 < Orderinchaos> I think Arbcom is one of the few things that keeps it on track, as long as the people in it are sensible and have the right priorities. at present that pretty much does describe ArbCom, it hasn't always and probably won't always.
2008-01-15 13:52 < Schroeder> how the hell is my high school basketball team still not receiving votes in the 3A statewide poll?
2008-01-15 13:52 < Ionas_Freeman> Cyrius: taking away that court jury shit
2008-01-15 13:52 < Cyrius> Ionas_Freeman: and replacing it with?
2008-01-15 13:52 < kenlyric> stoning
2008-01-15 13:52 < Orderinchaos> I've learned a *hell* of a lot about social psychology and politics on here
2008-01-15 13:52 < Ionas_Freeman> informal mediation
2008-01-15 13:52 < Orderinchaos> (politics, as a lecturer once told me, is the study of power)
2008-01-15 13:52 < Cyrius> kenlyric: you've got to decide who to stone
2008-01-15 13:52 < Orderinchaos> (well, political science actually)
2008-01-15 13:52 < kenlyric> Cyrius: have you read The Lottery?
2008-01-15 13:53 < Cyrius> Ionas_Freeman: the people who end up in front of the arbcom won't listen to anything that can't throw them out
2008-01-15 13:53 < Guest76> define: Arbcom
2008-01-15 13:53 < Cyrius> we have informal mediation, it accomplishes little
2008-01-15 13:53 < Ionas_Freeman> Arbitration Commitee
2008-01-15 13:53 < Guest76> ah
2008-01-15 13:53 < Guest76> thx
2008-01-15 13:53 < Demi> i saw a personals ad yesterday from a man seeking an "uninhabited woman."
2008-01-15 13:53 < Guest76> O__o
2008-01-15 13:53 < Cyrius> because the people who are willing to cooperate with a little encouragement
2008-01-15 13:53 < kenlyric> he doesn't want preggers
2008-01-15 13:53 < quanticle> Demi: Must be looking for a zombie
2008-01-15 13:53 < Cyrius> already cooperate with a little encouragement
2008-01-15 13:53 * Ceiling_Cat lulz
2008-01-15 13:54 < Orderinchaos> they get the most tangled difficult cases and try to make sense of them and decide what to do where community consensus has basically failed, or in cases where the community for whatever reason isn't in a position to decide (eg admin abuses where admin status may need revoking)
2008-01-15 13:54 < quanticle> kenlyric: Or that
2008-01-15 13:54 < Orderinchaos> AMA and various other community based mediation mechanisms turned into political distractions that achieved little
2008-01-15 13:55 < quanticle> Orderinchaos: That's why so many ArbCom decisions look crappy. If a case gets to ArbCom, there aren't a whole lot of good options that will please everyone
2008-01-15 13:55 < Ceiling_Cat> thank god the AMA is dead
2008-01-15 13:55 < Orderinchaos> essentially if you create something which is informal, cooperative etc people start getting scared of it and start inventing rules and procedures and stuff just because they can
2008-01-15 13:55 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: American Medical Association
2008-01-15 13:55 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - no, the association of members advocates
2008-01-15 13:55 < Orderinchaos> quanticle: Association of Members Advocates
2008-01-15 13:55 < Ceiling_Cat> basically a whole bunch of wannabe wiki-lawyers
2008-01-15 13:55 < Ionas_Freeman> Orderinchaos: I think nothing beats a failure but a try when it comes to such things.
2008-01-15 13:56 < Ceiling_Cat> I would like to take credit for my part in killing the AMA
2008-01-15 13:56 < Ceiling_Cat> whihc is to say, I made sure they got 0 credence from the arbcom
2008-01-15 13:56 < Guest76> AMA is dead, this could happen b/c of democratic values
2008-01-15 13:56 < kenlyric> the criminal legal system is unfair, but it's typically unfair in the direction of innocence. Sometimes it just takes more than one crime for it to stick on someone.
2008-01-15 13:56 < kenlyric> defense in depth, imo
2008-01-15 13:56 < Orderinchaos> I actually was one but I became inactive after a while as 1. most of the people seeking help were just trying to further their own cause with assistance, and 2. the AMA itself was starting to become overgrown and bureaucratic, and Wikipedia has enough bureaucracy without informal, non-binding ones...
2008-01-15 13:56 < Guest76> so why can't we DBAN the white house?
2008-01-15 13:56 < Ionas_Freeman> Since the arbcom lawyer crap doesn't work, and is fascist, why not try cooperative, informal things?
2008-01-15 13:56 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat, Orderinchaos: What did the AMA try to do?
2008-01-15 13:56 < Ceiling_Cat> Ionas_Freeman - because those things assume that both parties are acting in good faith, and mentally stable, etc
2008-01-15 13:57 < Cyrius> Ionas_Freeman: because that worked even less well
2008-01-15 13:57 < Ceiling_Cat> assumptions which are not true in a significant portion of arbcom cases
2008-01-15 13:57 < Ionas_Freeman> That's a good thing, ceiling_cat
2008-01-15 13:57 * brown_cat hangs onto Ceiling_Cat's tail
2008-01-15 13:57 < Orderinchaos> the whole idea was to help people who had become bogged in disputes they couldn't resolve. it was like a third opinion and mediation combined into one.
2008-01-15 13:57 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - make it hard to get rid of really really problem users
2008-01-15 13:57 < Guest76> DBAN@White HOuse
2008-01-15 13:57 < Cyrius> Ionas_Freeman: at some point, there are some people who need to be thrown out
2008-01-15 13:57 < Guest76> indeed.. **cough**
2008-01-15 13:57 < Ceiling_Cat> and, as fred pointed out, rather than actually presenting an effective case for their "clients", they simple complained about a whole lot of non-issues, like jurisdiction, or procedure, etc
2008-01-15 13:58 < Ceiling_Cat> needless to say, the arbcom did not receive these claims well
2008-01-15 13:58 < Orderinchaos> the idea behind it was a simple principle - sometimes people can't actually srticulate their point of view or its salient points clearly and that in itself becomes a focus for dispute
2008-01-15 13:58 < kenlyric> Orderinchaos: those people's opinions shouldn't matter.
2008-01-15 13:58 < Orderinchaos> where both sides were operating in good faith, that was fine, but often you had one who came to AMA who was in a dispute and was simply looking for someone to argue their case for their POV
2008-01-15 13:58 < kenlyric> it's a general failing in our culture that we care what stupid people think.
2008-01-15 13:58 < Ionas_Freeman> I think consensus is kind of faded away on Wikipedia: No more AGF, no more chances, just virtual prison for anyone who disagree with the few, Sad
2008-01-15 13:58 * brown_cat_coma calls Sfan00's name
2008-01-15 13:58 < brown_cat_coma> cya
2008-01-15 13:58 < brown_cat_coma> x
2008-01-15 13:59 < Orderinchaos> kenlyric: I often feel that way at AFDs :|
2008-01-15 13:59 < Orderinchaos> cya bcc :)
2008-01-15 13:59 < kenlyric> I mean, you shouldn't even have sex with stupid people.
2008-01-15 13:59 * brown_cat_coma cuddles Orderinchaos
2008-01-15 13:59 * Orderinchaos cuddles back
2008-01-15 13:59 < Orderinchaos> :)
2008-01-15 13:59 < kenlyric> let alone let them try to work out thorny wikipedia issues
2008-01-15 13:59 < Cyrius> Ionas_Freeman: yes, we tend to not be as forgiving up front. but assume good faith is _assume_ good faith, not ignore bad faith
2008-01-15 13:59 < Demi> kenlyric - why not? they can be pleasing and earnest and not even understand some of the sick things you ask them to do.
2008-01-15 13:59 * Ceiling_Cat watches Orderinchaos & brown_cat_coma
2008-01-15 14:00 * brown_cat_coma licks Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-15 14:00 < Ionas_Freeman> Well, I believe in Innocent until proven guilty.
2008-01-15 14:00 < kenlyric> Demi: sterilize them first.
2008-01-15 14:00 < kenlyric> and I mean with rubbing alcohol.
2008-01-15 14:01 < Orderinchaos> I've been dealing with a case which has been conclusive through checkuser, meets the duck test, but the guy is still claiming to this day that it's some guy in another city who just happens to have the same interest in his town as he does.
2008-01-15 14:01 < Ionas_Freeman> The spirit of that is lost in that I've been folowing Iamandrewrice's case lately, and see someone that is similar to me when I first created an account on Simplewiki,
2008-01-15 14:01 < Ceiling_Cat> Orderinchaos - oh, that's nothing
2008-01-15 14:01 < Guest76> 0.
2008-01-15 14:01 * quanticle wonders whether to unplug brown_cat_coma
2008-01-15 14:01 < Ceiling_Cat> Tim Starling caught Lir red handed with 20 socks (using hashed password matching)
2008-01-15 14:02 < Ionas_Freeman> (BTE, for those who are not familiar, i am User:Ionas68224 on both en and simple)
2008-01-15 14:02 < Ceiling_Cat> Lir's response was to demand the list be deleted
2008-01-15 14:02 < Ceiling_Cat> it was...galling
2008-01-15 14:02 < Ionas_Freeman> BTW *
2008-01-15 14:02 < Guest76> *yawn*
2008-01-15 14:02 < Tony_Sidaway> Ionas_Freeman: I've seen complaints like yours since I first came to Wikipedia over three years ago. not that they're necessarily invalid, but we do seem to have survived quite well if we're so dysfunctional.
2008-01-15 14:02 < Orderinchaos> the guy's only here to promote his view on one set of articles, most of which he created, and fight anyone who tries to disagree with him
2008-01-15 14:02 * Cyrius is like the only person who doesn't have any socks/alternate accounts
2008-01-15 14:02 < Ceiling_Cat> in another case, I caught three socks of one person, all editing on some topic. That person claimed the accounts belonged to him, his wife, and his child, respectively
2008-01-15 14:02 < Orderinchaos> on hot days in my city you'll sometimes see the more confrontational editors go in there and stir him up just for lulz
2008-01-15 14:02 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: All the socks had the same password?
2008-01-15 14:02 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - in Lir's case, yes
2008-01-15 14:03 < Ceiling_Cat> after all, if you are giong to have dozens of socks, how do you keep the passwoirds straight if they are different?
2008-01-15 14:03 < shimgray> Tony_Sidaway: it's the old "we can't rationally work, but pointing this out won't make us stop doing so" issue
2008-01-15 14:03 < Ionas_Freeman> Tony_Sidaway: survived with lots of corruptions
2008-01-15 14:03 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Wow, that's pretty dumb. You could create passwords for all your socks and keep them in a text file.
2008-01-15 14:03 < Cyrius> quanticle: he started just looking for retardedly weak passwords =)
2008-01-15 14:03 < Ceiling_Cat> and then there are people like Scibaby and Jon Awbrey, who just use *lots* of socks
2008-01-15 14:03 < Cyrius> I bothered him into checking '12345'
2008-01-15 14:04 < Demi> well, i know of one instance where there really were two separate editors in the same household, and clearly were two different people, where one innocent editor kept getting blocked due to the other
2008-01-15 14:04 < Ceiling_Cat> and blueaardvark and tilejoin
2008-01-15 14:04 < Orderinchaos> have you ever seen an article that's out of public view that has become infested with socks?
2008-01-15 14:04 < Ceiling_Cat> Orderinchaos - yes. Global warming
2008-01-15 14:04 < Tony_Sidaway> shimgray: I've seen it, or somethjing similar, expressed as "that may work in practice, but it'll never work in theory." :)
2008-01-15 14:04 < Ionas_Freeman> Who is Tilejoin?
2008-01-15 14:04 < Orderinchaos> and the socks have names that practically scream "sock"
2008-01-15 14:04 < kenlyric> Demi: meh, that's just the nature of the internet.
2008-01-15 14:04 < Ceiling_Cat> it attracts *lots* of scibaby socks
2008-01-15 14:04 < kenlyric> kick the idiots out of your house, IMO
2008-01-15 14:04 < shimgray> Demi: I am waiting for the day that someone accuses my housemate of being my sockpuppet
2008-01-15 14:04 < Orderinchaos> Immigration to Australia had some hilariously named ones.
2008-01-15 14:04 < Ceiling_Cat> in fact, I think roughly half of all the non-regulars who edit that article were scibaby socks
2008-01-15 14:04 < Demi> Tony_Sidaway - the difference between theory and practice is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is.
2008-01-15 14:04 < Ceiling_Cat> until I got them a week ago
2008-01-15 14:04 < Tony_Sidaway> Ionas_Freeman: I see it as a problem for those who see Wikipedia as a community in and of itself.
2008-01-15 14:04 < Orderinchaos> shimgray: that happened to me quite publicly once. :(
2008-01-15 14:05 < Cyrius> I am not a sock!
2008-01-15 14:05 < Guest76> socks don
2008-01-15 14:05 < Tony_Sidaway> If the encyclopedia is improving (and I believe that it is inconestable) then it doesn't matter so much.
2008-01-15 14:05 < Guest76> *don't use IRC
2008-01-15 14:05 * quanticle imagines Cyrius as Nixon when he says that
2008-01-15 14:05 < Ionas_Freeman> I think that Community and Encyclopedia should have equal valuie on WP.
2008-01-15 14:05 < Demi> kenlyric - i think it tells us we shouldn't burn so much outrage and effort over worrying who people are
2008-01-15 14:05 < Ionas_Freeman> value *
2008-01-15 14:05 < Cyrius> my feet are bare =(
2008-01-15 14:05 < Ceiling_Cat> Cyrius - are you pregnant and in the kitchen?
2008-01-15 14:06 < Guest76> lol
2008-01-15 14:06 < Cyrius> no, but I am hungry
2008-01-15 14:06 < Tony_Sidaway> David Gerard is my undeclared meatpuppet.
2008-01-15 14:06 < Ceiling_Cat> SinSeer: [[Barefoot and pregnant]]
2008-01-15 14:06 < Ceiling_Cat> see*
2008-01-15 14:06 < Orderinchaos> personally I think WP:SOCK is overused anyway. it's usually a means to an end more than anything else.
2008-01-15 14:06 < Cyrius> Ionas_Freeman: the community exists for the purpose of writing the encyclopedia
2008-01-15 14:06 < Sfan00> BACK
2008-01-15 14:06 < Guest76> ... I had no idea
2008-01-15 14:06 < Sfan00> Miss anything?
2008-01-15 14:06 < Guest76> no
2008-01-15 14:06 < Cyrius> we have to look after the community, but it is not the purpose
2008-01-15 14:06 < Ceiling_Cat> Sfan00 - cyrius was extolling the virtues of being barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen
2008-01-15 14:06 < Ionas_Freeman> I think if a sockpuppet is contructively contributing, then let them edit.
2008-01-15 14:06 < Ionas_Freeman> Just like H.
2008-01-15 14:07 < Cyrius> Ceiling_Cat: no, just barefoot and in the kitchen
2008-01-15 14:07 < Orderinchaos> without the community you have no means to build the encyclopaedia though
2008-01-15 14:07 < Cyrius> Orderinchaos: yes, but it's not the point of the project
2008-01-15 14:07 < Orderinchaos> Ionas_Freeman: I hold the same view.
2008-01-15 14:07 < Tony_Sidaway> It's a question of priorities.
2008-01-15 14:07 < FormentarHome> What about wearing two pairs of socks and being in the kitchen?
2008-01-15 14:07 < Ceiling_Cat> Cyrius - why not go for all 3?
2008-01-15 14:07 < Cyrius> we are not WikiSpace or WikiBook or...I can't think of any of those other sites
2008-01-15 14:07 < Orderinchaos> if they're joining together and edit warring you can get them on disruption, and probably should
2008-01-15 14:07 * FormentarHome hopes that his wife isn't pregnant.
2008-01-15 14:07 < Cyrius> Ceiling_Cat: I'm lacking the biological capacity
2008-01-15 14:07 < Ionas_Freeman> <Ionas_Freeman raises his fist in agreement and solidarity with Orderinchaos>
2008-01-15 14:08 < Demi> we worry a lot about motivation, intent and identity, i think ultimately that's not constructive on the whole
2008-01-15 14:08 < Ceiling_Cat> FormentarHome - if you see here wearing this shirt -> http://www.outblush.com/women/fashion/tops-tees/bun-in-the-oven-tshirt/
2008-01-15 14:08 < Ceiling_Cat> you might be in trouble
2008-01-15 14:08 < FormentarHome> Ceiling_Cat: Cute. :-)
2008-01-15 14:08 < Orderinchaos> ultimately, a highly conflicted editor can edit neutrally, if they don't, we get them on NPOV. a sockpuppet can edit constructively, if they disrupt, we get them on disruption. a lot of these codified policies create excuses to block or ban which maybe shouldn't exist
2008-01-15 14:08 < Guest76> that shit is lulz
2008-01-15 14:09 < Guest76> *shirt
2008-01-15 14:10 < FormentarHome> Guest76: What you said first works too.
2008-01-15 14:10 < Ceiling_Cat> FormentarHome - I remember seeing a comment about a similiar T-shirt
2008-01-15 14:10 < Orderinchaos> I know someone who works for a political party in an MP's office, and has edited not only that MP's article but ones about the city he lives in with particular reference to projects which the guy's involved in, the city's mayor whose campaign team he's been on, etc. he has declared his interest to me and 3 other people and we watch his edits, but I don't know why we even bother as his editing's fine and he does acknowledge and document coun
2008-01-15 14:10 < Demi> Orderinchaos - it's almost irresistible to get upset over the idea that someone does something wrong and remains unpunished... the idea that there are people out there "getting away" with bad edits just really sticks in peoples' craw.
2008-01-15 14:10 < Ceiling_Cat> "I wore this, and scared the shit out of my boyfrined"
2008-01-15 14:11 < FormentarHome> Ceiling_Cat: Excellent. Evil girlfriends are good. :-D
2008-01-15 14:11 < Guest76> lol, btw irc.freenode.net has 4000+ channels... <jaw drops>
2008-01-15 14:12 < Orderinchaos> demi: yes but I think sock has become the new witch... that's my point. and when we do get them on sockpuppetry violations, they're more often than not in violation of something else that they could have been gotten on. if those policies are too weak to use, they should be strengthened for the good of the encyclopaedia. but I've seen sockpuppetry allegations just turn into a way of gaming the pedia (esp when both sides of a debate are doing
2008-01-15 14:12 < Cyrius> Demi: it's a disease that is especially bad in the US
2008-01-15 14:13 < Ionas_Freeman> "troll" is also been something to attack (and I was accused of being and I didnt even want attention+)
2008-01-15 14:13 < Orderinchaos> I do agree with indef blocking socks of banned users - the ones we've decided should not be in our community at all
2008-01-15 14:13 < shimgray> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Freedom_of_information_in_France&action=history - wow, the antivandal bots are running a bit slow today
2008-01-15 14:13 < kenlyric> Guest76: 4000 isn't very many
2008-01-15 14:13 < Orderinchaos> because that's really just enforcing the existing decision rather than making a new one
2008-01-15 14:13 < shimgray> a two-hour pageblanking and no-one noticed?
2008-01-15 14:13 < Demi> the list of scientologists makes me sad
2008-01-15 14:13 < kenlyric> undernet had 4000 just for goat porn
2008-01-15 14:14 < FormentarHome> Guest76: /lusers says ~21k channels and ~45k users
2008-01-15 14:14 < Orderinchaos> however if they somehow come back, evade attention for a couple of months and edit constructively and show they've learned from earlier mistakes I think we should ignore it ... I am particular about kids with this one, as kids have a habit of growing and becoming more mature as time progresses
2008-01-15 14:14 < Ionas_Freeman> I disagree orderinchaos: if a sock contributes well, and isn't doing anything that got mer banned in the first place, then Good to go.
2008-01-15 14:14 < Demi> laura prepon is a scientologist?
2008-01-15 14:15 < Ionas_Freeman> I think there should be a ban review so that if someone think of a ban as unfasir, it can be reviewed
2008-01-15 14:15 < Orderinchaos> and I've seen examples and counter-examples - people who have learned from their mistakes and become some of our best, and others who are just not able to contribute usefully and will be disruptive no matter what.
2008-01-15 14:15 < Orderinchaos> (sadly, often for reasons beyond their control - eg serious impairment or a social disability)
2008-01-15 14:16 < FormentarHome> Demi: They specifically try to recruit celebrities, so it doesn't surprise me. Then again I have no idea what her mental state was like to begin with.
2008-01-15 14:16 < Ionas_Freeman> User:Encycloped*st (should I dare mentiion the name) seems very sorry and I think he should be given another chance,
2008-01-15 14:16 < Guest76> ...
2008-01-15 14:17 < Ceiling_Cat> Nibbler's waste consists of dark matter, which can be used as starship fuel. An extremely dense material, according to Professor Farnsworth "each pound of which weighs over ten thousand pounds".
2008-01-15 14:17 < Ceiling_Cat> now don't think about that too hard, or blood will shoot from your ears
2008-01-15 14:17 < Ionas_Freeman> Who is Nibbler?
2008-01-15 14:17 < Ceiling_Cat> [[Nibbler (Futurama)]]
2008-01-15 14:18 < quanticle> Guest76: But how many of those channels have a non-trivial number of users?
2008-01-15 14:18 < Guest76> hold on
2008-01-15 14:18 < quanticle> Guest76: Ex: ##quanticle only has one user, me
2008-01-15 14:19 < Guest76> idk, the list is too big the top 2k have a min of 20
2008-01-15 14:20 < Cyrius> quanticle: how many in the official quanticle channel? =)
2008-01-15 14:20 < quanticle> 1
2008-01-15 14:20 < quanticle> only me
2008-01-15 14:20 < Guest76> lol
2008-01-15 14:20 < Cyrius> ## indicates unofficiality
2008-01-15 14:20 < Orderinchaos> #aus-portal is official? :|
2008-01-15 14:20 < quanticle> Cyrius: Oh, in that case, the official quanticle channel doesn't exist
2008-01-15 14:20 < Orderinchaos> wow
2008-01-15 14:21 * quanticle wonders whether to create one
2008-01-15 14:22 < Guest76> *yawn*
2008-01-15 14:23 < Orderinchaos> anyway, really going :) cya!
2008-01-15 14:23 < Guest76> byw
2008-01-15 14:23 < Guest76> *bye
2008-01-15 14:24 < Ionas_Freeman> Bye!
2008-01-15 14:29 < Guest76> ...........
2008-01-15 14:31 < Ceiling_Cat> http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=478d66c399bd46b3&ei=_AmNR8KsA5OgqwOThaXjDQ&url=http%3A//www.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/01/14/iraq-snow-in-baghdad/&cid=0
2008-01-15 14:31 < Ceiling_Cat> It's snowing today in Iraq for the first time in 100 years
2008-01-15 14:32 < The359> Mission Accomplished
2008-01-15 14:32 * Ceiling_Cat snickers
2008-01-15 14:32 < kenlyric> Ceiling_Cat: today?
2008-01-15 14:32 < Ceiling_Cat> Yes
2008-01-15 14:32 < kenlyric> it snowed last week.
2008-01-15 14:32 < Ceiling_Cat> actually, several days ago
2008-01-15 14:32 < Ceiling_Cat> not today
2008-01-15 14:33 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: So that's why we invaded. To give the Middle East the gift of snow for Christmas
2008-01-15 14:33 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - but they shot down santa!
2008-01-15 14:33 < Ceiling_Cat> SinSeer: [[Red Sleigh Down]]
2008-01-15 14:34 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: All the more reason to invade. It was a rescue mission
2008-01-15 14:34 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - no need, Jesus did that
2008-01-15 14:36 < Tony_Sidaway> Ceiling_Cat: oh yes I thought of that episode of South Park too :)
2008-01-15 14:37 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Hmm. I hadn't seen that South Park
2008-01-15 14:37 < Tony_Sidaway> My daughter says South Park is naff, now. She wants me to watch Family Guy. I refuse because I can't stand the awful accents.
2008-01-15 14:38 < Tony_Sidaway> Dunno what it is. Simpsons and South Park sound okay to me, but that nasal accent on Family Guy annoys the hell out of me.
2008-01-15 14:39 < Tony_Sidaway> I suppose I could try watching it in French or Spanish. :)
2008-01-15 14:39 < quanticle> Tony_Sidaway: "naff"?
2008-01-15 14:40 < IceKarma> quanticle, "shit", in context
2008-01-15 14:41 < Cobi> Any crat around that wants to flag en:User:ClueBot?
2008-01-15 14:42 * TheWeasel waits for an automated confirmation email for ten minutes now
2008-01-15 14:45 < TheWeasel> I hate it when you make a detailed account somewhere which then gets orphaned because they don't bother to send you confirmation mail
2008-01-15 14:46 < TheWeasel> not to mention I could use that account about now
2008-01-15 14:48 < Tony_Sidaway> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image%3ANeeds-moar-drama.jpg&diff=8854039&oldid=8743527
2008-01-15 14:48 < Syntaxx00> how do u list for friends
2008-01-15 14:48 < Tony_Sidaway> Oh that is a hoot!
2008-01-15 14:48 < Syntaxx00> how do u add friends
2008-01-15 14:49 < kenlyric> that picture would be better if it had a decent resolution so you could see which article needs more drama.
2008-01-15 14:50 < TheWeasel> which stub-category is that?
2008-01-15 14:50 * TheWeasel tries to extrapolate
2008-01-15 14:51 < Tony_Sidaway> Syntaxx00: you go up to them and act in a friendly manner, then they're friendly back. Then next time you say "Hello, how are you?" and smile.
2008-01-15 14:51 < TheWeasel> it's well sourced
2008-01-15 14:51 < Lubaf> Nah nah nah nah / Nah nah nah nah / Hey hey hey...
2008-01-15 14:55 < IceKarma> http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/01/15/funny-pictures-welkum-to-mythbusters/
2008-01-15 14:56 < Cyrius> it needs a hat
2008-01-15 14:56 < kenlyric> needs something besides sunscreen
2008-01-15 14:56 < kenlyric> is he busting the cat sunscreen myth?
2008-01-15 14:56 < kenlyric> <insert most humorous cat sunscreen myth>
2008-01-15 15:00 < Tony_Sidaway> kenlyric: the article appears to be about dwarf planets
2008-01-15 15:00 < Cyrius> they prefer to be called "little planets"
2008-01-15 15:10 < bluefoxx> hye
2008-01-15 15:10 < bluefoxx> i was wondering
2008-01-15 15:11 < bluefoxx> does wikipedia have a page detailing how the random article function works?
2008-01-15 15:11 < Lycurgus> you could read the code if you can
2008-01-15 15:12 < bluefoxx> whear can i find it?
2008-01-15 15:12 < Lycurgus> on wikimedia's site where the lastest release is
2008-01-15 15:12 < bluefoxx> all i really want to know about it is if there are certane article catagories that are omited by it
2008-01-15 15:13 < Lycurgus> touche
2008-01-15 15:13 < bluefoxx> i want to know so i can set it as my little sister's homepage
2008-01-15 15:13 < Lycurgus> touche touche
2008-01-15 15:14 < bluefoxx> and i dont want her happening upon say, human sexuality or pages relating to other mature subjects[profanities, genocides, etc][shes only 10]
2008-01-15 15:14 < klichka> I have a problem
2008-01-15 15:14 < klichka> I am trying to access a page that is not linkable
2008-01-15 15:14 < klichka> on another wiki, this is due to a bug
2008-01-15 15:15 < klichka> http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Doom:_The_Battle_For_Mars
2008-01-15 15:15 < klichka> how on earth does one even access the said page?
2008-01-15 15:15 < klichka> It's an existing article
2008-01-15 15:15 < Lycurgus> .oO(hmm, a 10 year old editor? Maybe he means a homepage someplace else)
2008-01-15 15:16 < bluefoxx> Lycurgus: you mean me?
2008-01-15 15:17 < klichka> http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=Doom%3A+The+Battle+For+Mars&go=Go
2008-01-15 15:17 < klichka> You can see it there
2008-01-15 15:17 < klichka> it exists it's 1944 bytes
2008-01-15 15:17 < bluefoxx> klichka: it may be the colin in the title
2008-01-15 15:18 < bluefoxx> klichka: quote"it may contain one or more characters which cannot be used in titles."
2008-01-15 15:19 < klichka> Yeah
2008-01-15 15:19 < klichka> but how on earth was it accessed
2008-01-15 15:19 < klichka> and how do you get to it now?"
2008-01-15 15:20 < bluefoxx> all i want to know is wheather articles with more mature topics are omited from wikipedia's "random article" function so that i may set it as my little sister's homepage so she can learn something random and new every day
2008-01-15 15:20 < bluefoxx> klichka: try google cahce mayhaphs
2008-01-15 15:20 < Cyrius> nope
2008-01-15 15:20 < Sunderland2006> i see the request for page protection for Jean-Yves Mvoto got rejected
2008-01-15 15:20 < bluefoxx> cache*
2008-01-15 15:20 < Demi> bluefoxx - no, not at all
2008-01-15 15:21 < Demi> wikipedia has been very resistant to any form of tagging or categorization along those lines
2008-01-15 15:21 < bluefoxx> Demi: ok, thank you
2008-01-15 15:23 < klichka> http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Doom:_Gates_of_Hell so how on earth are these articles even accessable
2008-01-15 15:24 < Messedrocker> klichka, either they use a semicolon or they have no punctuation
2008-01-15 15:24 < Messedrocker> e.g. "Doom Gates of Hell" or "Doom - Gates of Hell" or "Doom; Gates of Hell" etc
2008-01-15 15:25 < klichka> http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Deadendpages
2008-01-15 15:25 < klichka> page number 4 cannot be accessed
2008-01-15 15:25 < klichka> I'm curious as to how you can even get into it
2008-01-15 15:25 < Messedrocker> that's trippy
2008-01-15 15:25 < Messedrocker> it's the conflicting issue
2008-01-15 15:25 < Messedrocker> pertaining to the fact that the wiki's name within the database is "Doom"
2008-01-15 15:26 < Demi> possibly the page was created when the namespaces were different? or the quoting worked differently in a previous mw version?
2008-01-15 15:27 < IceKarma> send for a dev ;)
2008-01-15 15:28 < Demi> we should have a cult comparison table
2008-01-15 15:28 < Demi> like software feature comparison tables
2008-01-15 15:29 < Demi> except instead of "integrates with web services" as a checkbox it would be "demands sexual favors from followers"
2008-01-15 15:30 < Lycurgus> only teh seksy ones
2008-01-15 15:30 < Demi> you could put that in a footnote
2008-01-15 15:30 < Demi> apparently scientology's dream is that human communication will become more efficient by using abbreviations for everything
2008-01-15 15:30 < IceKarma> Demi, don't forget all the jargon
2008-01-15 15:31 < Demi> it's not even good jargon, it's like a day at my job
2008-01-15 15:31 < Demi> PTSP, SP, PMDRSP, blah
2008-01-15 15:31 * IceKarma wonders what field Demi works in?
2008-01-15 15:32 < Demi> corporate IT outsourcing
2008-01-15 15:32 < Demi> my company has the same love of meaningless abbreviations as scientology
2008-01-15 15:32 < quanticle> Demi: That sounds disturbingly like the objective of NewSpeak in 1984
2008-01-15 15:32 < Demi> those other abbreviations come from this tom cruise scientology recruiting video
2008-01-15 15:33 * quanticle wonders whether the DoD has any influence over Scientology
2008-01-15 15:33 < quanticle> They both have this annoying acronym fetish
2008-01-15 15:33 < Demi> the company i work for is largely ex-military
2008-01-15 15:34 < quanticle> Demi: Hence the acronymization?
2008-01-15 15:34 * quanticle wonders whether acronymization is a word
2008-01-15 15:34 < IceKarma> remember, kids, it's only an acronym if you can say it as a word
2008-01-15 15:34 < IceKarma> quanticle, I understand what you mean by it, so, yes
2008-01-15 15:35 < Demi> it's more like letter gumbo
2008-01-15 15:35 < Demi> every business unit, project, software program, protocol, etc. has an associated jumble of letters
2008-01-15 15:35 < IceKarma> will you find it in a dictionary? probably not, but that isn't really what defines a "word", and "an exhaustive list of all permissible words in a given language" isn't actually part of the dictionary's job description
2008-01-15 15:36 < quanticle> IceKarma: Then what do you call unpronounceable alphabet soup, e.g. SPP
2008-01-15 15:36 < IceKarma> quanticle, an abbreviation, or an initialism
2008-01-15 15:36 < Messedrocker> Arrefay
2008-01-15 15:36 * quanticle wonders if he can make a cool futuristic sounding backronym for S.P.A.R.T.A.
2008-01-15 15:36 < placebo_effect> hey messed
2008-01-15 15:36 < Demi> i used to work for BPO, but now it's the SDO (actually SD now) putting LRAs in the SDC, excuse me that's actually in the LSC, which is hosted at our SMCs and communicated via EEIB with other SDA components
2008-01-15 15:37 < IceKarma> acronym < initialism < abbreviation, IMO
2008-01-15 15:37 * quanticle cowers after Demi's abbreviation assault
2008-01-15 15:37 < IceKarma> Demi, ever done telecommunications?
2008-01-15 15:37 < Demi> no
2008-01-15 15:37 * Ceiling_Cat returns
2008-01-15 15:38 < quanticle> Demi: IceKarma's trying to say that you'll fit right in that field
2008-01-15 15:38 < Demi> quanticle - i'm actually watering that down because i'm quoting neutral stuff that won't tell anyone who i am, realistically a sentence like that would have about twice as many.
2008-01-15 15:38 < Demi> quanticle - i would, very much
2008-01-15 15:38 < Demi> i'm one of about eight people who use erlang outside of telecommunications, for example
2008-01-15 15:39 < IceKarma> Demi, lol.
2008-01-15 15:39 < quanticle> Demi: erlang?
2008-01-15 15:39 < FormentarHome> Demi: Oi!
2008-01-15 15:39 < Lycurgus> nah, Erlang has more users than tht.
2008-01-15 15:39 < Lycurgus> a
2008-01-15 15:39 < IceKarma> Lycurgus, no, not the programming language
2008-01-15 15:39 < IceKarma> it's a dimensionless unit used in measuring telecommunications capacity
2008-01-15 15:40 < Demi> it's a few things, actually, though here i was actually talking about the programming language
2008-01-15 15:40 < Demi> it's some kind of capacity planning package, too, i think
2008-01-15 15:40 < quanticle> From [[Erlang unit]]: "Alternatively, an Erlang may be regarded as a "use multiplier" per unit time, so 100% use is 1 Erlang, 200% use is 2 Erlangs..."
2008-01-15 15:40 < Lycurgus> Oh, right it's an entropy measure or something isn't it?
2008-01-15 15:40 < quanticle> How can you have more than 100% use?
2008-01-15 15:40 < IceKarma> Demi, extra lol, not only did you prime me, you misdirected me. ;)
2008-01-15 15:40 < IceKarma> quanticle, two trunks.
2008-01-15 15:41 < Demi> quanticle - they talk faster
2008-01-15 15:41 < Lycurgus> channel capacity utilization or the like
2008-01-15 15:41 < quanticle> IceKarma: But then isn't the total capacity the sum of the capacities of the trunks?
2008-01-15 15:41 < IceKarma> quanticle, um, listen to Lycurgus, not me. ;)
2008-01-15 15:42 < quanticle> Lycurgus: How can your channel be utilized at n > 100%?
2008-01-15 15:42 < IceKarma> quanticle, things like [[pair gain]] let you cram 2 erlangs into one trunk
2008-01-15 15:42 < Demi> quanticle - like birth, it's an everyday miracle
2008-01-15 15:42 < Demi> (as in, that's a channel being used more than its capacity)
2008-01-15 15:42 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - the packets get mashed together
2008-01-15 15:42 < Demi> "i'm sorry, did you say birth capacity or burst capacity?"
2008-01-15 15:43 < IceKarma> Demi, CIR, dammit
2008-01-15 15:43 < Lycurgus> percentages greater than 100 and non multiples are meaningles bullshit talk that some people like to use
2008-01-15 15:43 < Ceiling_Cat> Demi - it's a vagina, not a clown car, dammit
2008-01-15 15:43 < Lycurgus> s/and/as/
2008-01-15 15:44 < Lycurgus> typically bosses or other scammers/parasites
2008-01-15 15:44 < quanticle> Oh. I get it now. Thanks for the link to [[pair gain]] IceKarma
2008-01-15 15:44 < Demi> i used to work for OB/GYNEX so i get confused sometimes
2008-01-15 15:52 < Mike_H> this is so my favorite song now
2008-01-15 15:52 * Mike_H NP: Aly & AJ - Potential Breakup Song (2007)
2008-01-15 15:52 < Mike_H> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=bqpA5Acc8-c
2008-01-15 15:53 < Tony_Sidaway> Erlang's formula is important to distribution of limited resources that are shared. For instance a cable modem service. Use multiplier calculations are used in deciding how many subscribers can share a single connection.
2008-01-15 15:53 < Ceiling_Cat> And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea... And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
2008-01-15 15:53 < Ceiling_Cat> -- Revalation, Chapter 21
2008-01-15 15:53 < Tony_Sidaway> I'll have whatever he's having.
2008-01-15 15:53 < Mike_H> My revelation is that Aly and AJ are good singers.
2008-01-15 15:54 < Ceiling_Cat> ewww...American Idol. Yuck
2008-01-15 15:54 < Mike_H> They weren't on Idol.
2008-01-15 15:54 < Mike_H> I think they were originally in the Disney stable.
2008-01-15 15:54 < Cobi> Can a crat please flag en:User:ClueBot?
2008-01-15 15:54 < Mike_H> I don't think they are anymore.
2008-01-15 15:54 < quanticle> Mike_H: Are you talking about the twins>
2008-01-15 15:54 < quanticle> *?
2008-01-15 15:54 < Mike_H> They're not twins.
2008-01-15 15:54 < Ceiling_Cat> cobi - has it been approved?
2008-01-15 15:54 < Mike_H> AJ is two years younger than Aly
2008-01-15 15:55 < Cobi> Ceiling_Cat: Yes.
2008-01-15 15:55 < Mike_H> but they are sisters
2008-01-15 15:55 < quanticle> Mike_H: Whoa. They sure look similar...
2008-01-15 15:55 < Ceiling_Cat> Link?
2008-01-15 15:55 < Mike_H> well, people who are related tend to look related
2008-01-15 15:55 < Mike_H> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=bqpA5Acc8-c
2008-01-15 15:55 < Ceiling_Cat> ah
2008-01-15 15:55 < quanticle> Of course, I've only seen them once, in passing, so my recollection is probably a bit fuzzy
2008-01-15 15:55 < Ceiling_Cat> [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/ClueBot]]
2008-01-15 15:55 < Mike_H> except in my family
2008-01-15 15:55 < Mike_H> I'm the only sibling who has green eyes :(
2008-01-15 15:55 < klichka> are there expanding objects in wikipedia?
2008-01-15 15:56 < klichka> or collapsable objects
2008-01-15 15:56 < quanticle> Mike_H: You sure you weren't adopted?
2008-01-15 15:56 < Mike_H> quanticle: Well, my siblings have different fathers than I do
2008-01-15 15:56 < quanticle> klichka: I don't think so
2008-01-15 15:56 < Mike_H> that would probably do it
2008-01-15 15:56 < klichka> darn, to be frank I found this functionality of interest at ED
2008-01-15 15:56 < Mike_H> My mom and dad have green eyes, so it would be more common for me to have green eyes
2008-01-15 15:57 < Mike_H> her other husbands had blue eyes, so my first three siblings have blue eyes, and my other sibling has gray eyes
2008-01-15 15:57 < klichka> and no, I'm not a vandal in any sense
2008-01-15 15:57 < Tony_Sidaway> There are balloons and deckchairs
2008-01-15 15:57 < Tony_Sidaway> Expandable and collapsible.
2008-01-15 15:57 < klichka> baloons in wikipedia?
2008-01-15 15:57 < Tony_Sidaway> Possibly there are inflatable deckchairs--both expandable and collapsible.
2008-01-15 15:57 < quanticle> klichka: Are we talking about AJAX-y menus
2008-01-15 15:58 < Tony_Sidaway> Balloons, but no balloon porn.
2008-01-15 15:58 * Demi pops a balloon between his thighs
2008-01-15 15:58 < Tony_Sidaway> Oh stop it!
2008-01-15 15:58 < Mike_H> Demi: Oh, you would
2008-01-15 15:58 < klichka> I'll have to link to ED to really show you
2008-01-15 15:58 < klichka> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Encyclopedia_Dramatica:Collapsing_Objects
2008-01-15 15:58 < klichka> the click to expand sample thing
2008-01-15 15:58 < klichka> that's neat
2008-01-15 15:59 < klichka> in the way it can be expanded to show more stuff by clicking on the link
2008-01-15 16:00 < Cobi> Thanks, Ceiling_Cat :)
2008-01-15 16:00 * quanticle wants to build a computer out of Strowger Switches now
2008-01-15 16:02 < Tony_Sidaway> quanticle: oh there's one at Bletchley Park!
2008-01-15 16:02 < Tony_Sidaway> I've seen it working--you can hear the switches clicking away like mad.
2008-01-15 16:02 < Tony_Sidaway> Colossus rebuild
2008-01-15 16:03 < quanticle> Tony_Sidaway: Colossus was built out of Stowger switches?
2008-01-15 16:03 * Ceiling_Cat builds a computer out of quanticles
2008-01-15 16:03 * quanticle thinks that would be a quantum computer
2008-01-15 16:04 < Tony_Sidaway> quanticle: yes, and lots of thermionic valves, and post office string, and bits of wood.
2008-01-15 16:04 < Demi> a quanticle is like a very small testicle where the classical ball model breaks down
2008-01-15 16:04 < quanticle> Hmmm, I always imagined Colossus as being built out of vacuum tubes
2008-01-15 16:04 < Tony_Sidaway> Oh we're back to popping balloons again.
2008-01-15 16:05 < shimgray> and very very small mathematicians
2008-01-15 16:05 * quanticle slaps Demi
2008-01-15 16:06 < Tony_Sidaway> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ndrwfgg/1329944868/
2008-01-15 16:10 * TheWeasel reads the Cheese Act of 1986
2008-01-15 16:11 < quanticle> Tony_Sidaway: Cool. If I ever go to England, I'll make a note to visit the Colossus rebiuld
2008-01-15 16:14 < klichka> found example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:TOCStates
2008-01-15 16:16 * Ceiling_Cat arrested TheWeasel for violating paragraph 175
2008-01-15 16:16 < Ceiling_Cat> arrests*
2008-01-15 16:18 < TheWeasel> Damn, I didn't label my cottage cheese with the correct amount of water it contains
2008-01-15 16:18 * Ceiling_Cat sentences TheWeasel to 100 consecutive greasings
2008-01-15 16:19 * TheWeasel appeals to the European Court of Fatty Affairs
2008-01-15 16:19 * Ceiling_Cat rolls theweasel in dough, egg batter, and bread crumbs
2008-01-15 16:20 < TheWeasel> Ever heard of weasel and chips? Me neither.
2008-01-15 16:20 < TheWeasel> Wah!
2008-01-15 16:21 < Demi> dough, egg batter *and* bread crumbs?
2008-01-15 16:22 < Ceiling_Cat> Of course. Fried breaded weasel is delicious
2008-01-15 16:23 < Tony_Sidaway> quanticle: yes, England even contrives to have medieval computer relics :)
2008-01-15 16:23 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Not really. I'd imagine weasel meat, like that of most other small mammals is very low in fat, and therefore prone to being rather tough
2008-01-15 16:24 < TheWeasel> I'm stringy.
2008-01-15 16:24 < Demi> i don't think rabbit is tough
2008-01-15 16:24 < Tony_Sidaway> You can't move in this tiny island without bumping into some history.
2008-01-15 16:24 < Demi> but it's been a very long time since i ate some
2008-01-15 16:24 < shimgray> also, carnivore tends not to taste so good
2008-01-15 16:24 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - except that weasels, by virtue of their tendancy to be greased up and, um, vigiriously rubbed all over, tend to be delicious
2008-01-15 16:24 < Demi> i expect it would be nasty and gamey
2008-01-15 16:24 < Ceiling_Cat> http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/4354 !
2008-01-15 16:24 < Ceiling_Cat> The NBC television network filed documents this morning, asking Nevada's Supreme Court to overturn a decision by a Clark County District Court judge that Dennis Kucinich be allowed to participate in tonight's Democratic presidential candidate debate.
2008-01-15 16:25 < Ceiling_Cat> assholes. I hope they lose badly
2008-01-15 16:25 < Cyrius> Ceiling_Cat: old news
2008-01-15 16:25 < Ceiling_Cat> Cyrius -no, it's very new. They lost yesterday
2008-01-15 16:25 < Cyrius> well, old relative to how fast the story's moving
2008-01-15 16:25 < LawrenceWCohen> shimgray: aquatic carnivores can be quite tasty, like some shark and alligator
2008-01-15 16:25 * Ceiling_Cat prefers dolphin
2008-01-15 16:25 * LawrenceWCohen mourns the poor porpoise
2008-01-15 16:26 * Cyrius has never eaten shark or alligator
2008-01-15 16:26 < shimgray> Ceiling_Cat: I love that the second response is a whiny query asking why Ron Paul isn't there
2008-01-15 16:26 * Demi purchases only dolphin-rich tuna
2008-01-15 16:26 * Ceiling_Cat shudders
2008-01-15 16:26 < Cyrius> which is odd, considering I live in the part of the country where alligators are actually farmed
2008-01-15 16:26 < shimgray> god, I wish these primaries were over just so we could STOP HEARING ABOUT BLOODY RON PAUL
2008-01-15 16:26 < Demi> you have to have some standards for who participates in a debate
2008-01-15 16:26 < Arwen> heh, everybody loves Ron Paul
2008-01-15 16:26 < Ceiling_Cat> shimgray - you should thank god every day that that nutcase won't win
2008-01-15 16:26 < Demi> i don't love ron paul
2008-01-15 16:26 < Cyrius> demi: yeah, it just so happened that they changed the rules after kucinich met the ones they announced
2008-01-15 16:27 < SNORLAX> we need a ron paulocaust
2008-01-15 16:27 < Demi> ron paul thinks that the government embedded mind control chips in the new bills
2008-01-15 16:27 < Ceiling_Cat> Demi - http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/11/ron-pauls-record-in-congress.html
2008-01-15 16:27 < mavhk> he's been cloned?
2008-01-15 16:27 < Ceiling_Cat> Just read that link. It's *scary*
2008-01-15 16:27 < mavhk> Ceiling_Cat: not exactly a NPOV though
2008-01-15 16:27 < Demi> he thinks the treasury department is going to shoot you if you don't like the new currency
2008-01-15 16:27 < LawrenceWCohen> I think I would prefer Jaws from the Bond films over Ron Paul, at this time
2008-01-15 16:27 < Ceiling_Cat> mavhk - sure, it's unbiased. It's simply a list of things he proposed in congress
2008-01-15 16:27 < mavhk> you WILL like the new currency
2008-01-15 16:28 < mavhk> with commentary
2008-01-15 16:28 < Cyrius> "Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States authorizing the States to prohibit the physical destruction of the flag of the United States"
2008-01-15 16:28 < Cyrius> ok, that's inconsistent
2008-01-15 16:28 < shimgray> Ceiling_Cat: you think I don't?
2008-01-15 16:28 < mavhk> Cyrius: did he vote for or against it?
2008-01-15 16:28 < Ceiling_Cat> shimgray - don't what?
2008-01-15 16:28 < Cyrius> he introduced it!
2008-01-15 16:28 < Demi> ron paul is nothing if not an inconsistent, rather random wacko
2008-01-15 16:28 < Rinn> He proposed it.
2008-01-15 16:28 < LawrenceWCohen> wow. "A bill to repeal the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970"
2008-01-15 16:29 < LawrenceWCohen> twice.
2008-01-15 16:29 < mavhk> but did he vote for or against it?
2008-01-15 16:29 < shimgray> "thank god every day that that nutcase won't win"
2008-01-15 16:29 < Cyrius> wait, maybe I read that wrong
2008-01-15 16:29 < Ceiling_Cat> ah, hehe
2008-01-15 16:29 < Cyrius> let me look better
2008-01-15 16:29 < Demi> frankly, while he should be lauded for functioning highly enough to not actually be a raving homeless person on the street, that doesn't mean he gets to be president
2008-01-15 16:29 < Cyrius> he sponsored it, never made it to a vote
2008-01-15 16:29 < LawrenceWCohen> the fact he sponsored it is worse: its his idea
2008-01-15 16:29 < mavhk> you can introduce things you want to vote against
2008-01-15 16:29 < LawrenceWCohen> ah well. Colbert in 2008.
2008-01-15 16:29 * Ceiling_Cat sponsors a bill that all Ron Paul supporters be thrown into volcanoes
2008-01-15 16:30 < Ceiling_Cat> (thanks, futurama, for the idea)
2008-01-15 16:30 < Demi> Ceiling_Cat - no, the thetan problem would be awful
2008-01-15 16:30 < Rinn> The best thing about Ron Paul is all the wonderful Ron Paul trolls.
2008-01-15 16:31 < Demi> " A bill to make all Iranian Students in the United States ineligible for any form of federal aid." nice
2008-01-15 16:31 < Demi> uh, i don't know why i put notes at the beginning of that
2008-01-15 16:31 < Demi> though i would listen to an anti-ron paul song
2008-01-15 16:31 < Ceiling_Cat> btw, do you realize that with basically no democratic primary in michigan, all of the democrats and independents are going to vote in the republican primary?
2008-01-15 16:31 < Ceiling_Cat> Romney is going to tank :)
2008-01-15 16:31 < mavhk> why no dem primary?
2008-01-15 16:32 < Ceiling_Cat> mavhk - because the state got stripped of its delagates
2008-01-15 16:32 < Ceiling_Cat> only hillary is on the ballot there
2008-01-15 16:32 < Cyrius> mavhk: punishment for moving their primary up
2008-01-15 16:32 < shimgray> mavhk: They tried to have one too early. This was seen as Cheating.
2008-01-15 16:32 < Ceiling_Cat> and there's no write in
2008-01-15 16:32 < Cyrius> 'To restore to taxpayers awareness of the true cost of government by eliminating the withholding of income taxes by employers and requiring individuals to pay income taxes in monthly installments, and for other purposes.'
2008-01-15 16:33 < shimgray> *this* is what happens when you anger the New Hampshire Mafia, y'see. they take your election away totally, since you were playing silly buggers with it.
2008-01-15 16:33 < Ceiling_Cat> so rather than voting in the democratic primary (where the voters have exactly two choices - hillary or uncommitted - with no write in) I think they are going to vote in the republican primary
2008-01-15 16:33 < Cyrius> that doesn't seem all that crazy if you start from the idea that people can actually be responsible with their finances
2008-01-15 16:33 < Ceiling_Cat> and hopefully, that will FINISH off Romney
2008-01-15 16:33 < quanticle> Cyrius: Whose platmorm is that from?
2008-01-15 16:33 < shimgray> Ceiling_Cat: two choices *and both of them irrelevant*...
2008-01-15 16:33 < mavhk> before you run a big country shouldn't you practise on a tiny test country with your crazy ideas first?
2008-01-15 16:33 < Cyrius> people would scream bloody murder if they saw how much tax money they were paying all in one spot
2008-01-15 16:33 < Cyrius> mavhk: yeah, that was supposed to be the idea of having a bunch of states
2008-01-15 16:33 < Demi> mavhk - well, he has, it's in his head, ronpaulia
2008-01-15 16:33 < Ceiling_Cat> Cyrius - taxes are the price we pay for civlization
2008-01-15 16:33 < Cyrius> quanticle: legislation introduced by Ron Paul
2008-01-15 16:33 < Ceiling_Cat> --Oliver Wendell Holmes
2008-01-15 16:34 < SNORLAX> florida's primary doesn't count because they made it earlier
2008-01-15 16:34 < Cyrius> Ceiling_Cat: that's not an argument that more taxes = more civilization
2008-01-15 16:34 < shimgray> Cyrius: Interestingly, we have that here (to a degree); the council tax is paid locally in lump sums, and is often much more politically objectionable than the income tax
2008-01-15 16:34 < shimgray> (...and as for the 'community charge'...)
2008-01-15 16:34 < Demi> shimgray - is that an income tax?
2008-01-15 16:34 < Ceiling_Cat> Cyrius - actually, it is. Most republicans believe in a night-watchman government that does nothing but enforce order
2008-01-15 16:34 < shimgray> Demi: It's a rough property-occupation tax; you're assessed based on the value of housing you're resident in
2008-01-15 16:34 < mavhk> it's not based on income
2008-01-15 16:35 < Demi> Ceiling_Cat - not at all, that's more of a libertarian idea
2008-01-15 16:35 < shimgray> so it's *broadly* progressive, but not explicitly or perfectly so
2008-01-15 16:35 < mavhk> that's what the government used to do, in about 1200AD
2008-01-15 16:35 < mavhk> and wasn't life great
2008-01-15 16:35 < Cyrius> Ceiling_Cat: or maybe, just maybe, people should actually think about what they're paying for, rather than pretending that they're not paying for it because the costs are spread around so they don't notice
2008-01-15 16:35 < Demi> shimgray - well, we have property tax as well, that's not withheld (though it can be arranged through your lender if you have a mortgage)
2008-01-15 16:36 < shimgray> mavhk: no, you're thinking of poll taxes. property taxation has been around a lot more than "the past"
2008-01-15 16:36 < Demi> shimgray - er, that is, most places have property tax
2008-01-15 16:36 < Ceiling_Cat> Cyrius - I happen to think our government spends *WAAAAAY* too much on the DOD
2008-01-15 16:36 < shimgray> unrelatedly!
2008-01-15 16:36 * Cyrius is one of those centrists who appears "liberal" in "conservative" circles, and vice versa
2008-01-15 16:36 < Ceiling_Cat> I think the pentagon budget should be cut 80% or more
2008-01-15 16:36 < mavhk> shimgray: I mean "a night-watchman government that does nothing but enforce order"
2008-01-15 16:36 < Cyrius> Ceiling_Cat: Ron Paul wants to bring the miltary back from overseas =)