freenode #wikipedia

2008-01-15 06:27 < Mike_H> but nobody cares now
2008-01-15 06:28 < Mike_H> because people have money
2008-01-15 06:28 < Mike_H> (well, a lot of urban people anyway)
2008-01-15 06:28 < NotASpy> not that China is exactly communist these days anyway, more like a nice capitalist country with a bit of communism and dictatorship mixed in for good measure.
2008-01-15 06:28 < Mike_H> That was basically the 2007 Person of the Year message in TIME
2008-01-15 06:28 < Mike_H> that Russia is inching ever so slowly back to totalitarian rule, but people can buy Victoria's Secret and Sephora and Tiffany now, and nobody cares
2008-01-15 06:29 < NotASpy> to be fair, even Europe is getting to the stage of totalitarian rule, we've just got the choice of deciding who rules over us with an iron fist.
2008-01-15 06:29 < jhattara> neither china nor SU were never really communistic countries
2008-01-15 06:30 < Mike_H> I would say nearly all the Warsaw Pact nations did fit the Communist mold pretty well.
2008-01-15 06:30 < jhattara> they might have had communistic oratory but they were just your regular oligarchies both
2008-01-15 06:30 < mavhk> and they noticed that getting rid of communism without having an economy was bad, cf russia
2008-01-15 06:31 < Mike_H> mavhk: Well, that's basically what socialism did in those countries. None of them had money.
2008-01-15 06:31 < Mike_H> That's why Germany's government is still paying to rebuild East Germany, 20 years later.
2008-01-15 06:31 < Mike_H> Poland's economy has only started to rebound this decade.
2008-01-15 06:32 < jhattara> Mike_H, that depends how you define communism
2008-01-15 06:32 < Mike_H> jhattara: In America, pretty much any kind of socialism is deemed communism by a large number of Americans.
2008-01-15 06:32 < NotASpy> China so doesn't fit Communism, people can buy what house, car, mobile phone etc that they want, there's no real sharing of resources for the greater good stuff going on now. It's every man from himself.
2008-01-15 06:32 < jhattara> the warsaw pact countries were in no way classless societies
2008-01-15 06:32 < Mike_H> My father doesn't believe in universal health care, even, because he feels it's a Communist ideal.
2008-01-15 06:32 < jhattara> and a classless society is one of the foundations of communism
2008-01-15 06:33 < Mike_H> That's why I don't think many socialist reforms will work in the US, like I don't think universal health care will happen anytime soon, because there's a wide swath of people who were raised to believe that it's Communist, therefore evil.
2008-01-15 06:33 < jhattara> if a nation is led by a ruling elite, it is not a classless society, as the ruling elite must have more power than the general population, and thus it isn't communism
2008-01-15 06:34 < Mike_H> NotASpy: How old are you?
2008-01-15 06:34 < Mike_H> It's pertinent, I promise
2008-01-15 06:34 < NotASpy> the National Health Service here is truly fantastic, and not only is it a socialist gem, but it's a capitalist dream too. Two of the world's biggest drug companies have grown up around the NHS
2008-01-15 06:34 < NotASpy> Mike_H: 24
2008-01-15 06:34 < Mike_H> oh, I thought you were older
2008-01-15 06:35 < Mike_H> NotASpy: Well, you're aware that the largest voting bloc in the United States were all pretty much raised and taught (in families, schools, etc) that socialism equaled Communism, therefore every tenet laid out is bad
2008-01-15 06:35 < Mike_H> these people are in their 40s, 50s and 60s now
2008-01-15 06:35 < Mike_H> and hope is pretty much too late for them to change their minds.
2008-01-15 06:36 < Mike_H> the younger generation is open to it, but only slightly, because a lot of them were imparted those same thoughts by their parents.
2008-01-15 06:36 < jhattara> that's too bad, US is propably the only western industrial country that looks on many statistics just like a developing country
2008-01-15 06:37 < NotASpy> Mike_H: the McCarthy witch hunts, reds under the bed and all that stuff. It was always different in the UK, one of our mainstream political parties has always been a socialist based party until very very recently.
2008-01-15 06:37 < t2rim> Mike_H: I agree with you there, if Democracy is all about freedom, where is the freedom in inculcating children with their parent's beliefs?
2008-01-15 06:37 < jhattara> NotASpy, that development has been seen all across Europe, old socialdemocratic parties are moving towards the political right
2008-01-15 06:37 < Mike_H> I think it's natural for parents to do that. They want to instill values and morals into their children.
2008-01-15 06:38 < Mike_H> They personally don't think they're wrong.
2008-01-15 06:38 < Mike_H> My father was always the kind where I was taught to just believe this and do that, and questioning was bad.
2008-01-15 06:38 < NotASpy> it's only in the last 15 years that the Labour party, which is still quite a socialist body, has become more, well, as jhattara says, right wing, more conservative as their ideals are less relevant today as things like home ownership which was an ideal in 1950 is now a common everyday thing, as is car ownership, pensions, healthcare and so on.
2008-01-15 06:39 < t2rim> morals and values are one thing, whole ideas and concepts another all together.
2008-01-15 06:39 < Mike_H> He was in the military, so I guess he did that kind of military training on me ;)
2008-01-15 06:39 < Mike_H> and there are different parts of the country that have more sense of imparting morals
2008-01-15 06:39 < Mike_H> as backward or antiquated as they may be
2008-01-15 06:40 < jhattara> the finnish Social Democratic Party is now much more on the right side of the politics compared to what they were twenty or thirty years ago
2008-01-15 06:40 < t2rim> Well you know what they say about military intelligence (no offense ;)
2008-01-15 06:40 < Mike_H> >:(
2008-01-15 06:40 < t2rim> ;)
2008-01-15 06:40 < Mike_H> with military families, they tend to be more conservative than regular families
2008-01-15 06:41 < Mike_H> it's regimented all around following orders and being obedient.
2008-01-15 06:41 < NotASpy> what we're seeing now in the UK is that all the political parties have some degree of socialism, because they've noticed that capitalism equals wealth for more of the population than some more communist type ideals, and with it, socialist ideals can now be fulfilled through capitalism.
2008-01-15 06:41 < Mike_H> very rarely will you find a free-thinking liberal military family, because the military isn't about free thinking. It's about doing what you're told.
2008-01-15 06:41 < jhattara> and for a long time there hasn't been a party i could relate with in here, as i'm very liberal lefitst
2008-01-15 06:42 < Mike_H> and another thing that I think hurts America in terms of social progress is that we're a big country
2008-01-15 06:42 < Mike_H> so there are many areas that are very rural
2008-01-15 06:42 < Mike_H> with people who never leave their small towns
2008-01-15 06:42 < Mike_H> and thus will be more conservative because they simply don't know anything else.
2008-01-15 06:43 < jhattara> it's not that you are rural, it's that you seem to be very much interested only in the matters that have direct importance to your everyday life
2008-01-15 06:43 < Mike_H> right, and religion plays more into people's politics because it is still an integral part of weekly life
2008-01-15 06:44 < Mike_H> which it isn't in American cities anymore
2008-01-15 06:44 < jhattara> political right is something that could never work in nordic countries
2008-01-15 06:44 < Mike_H> If you don't know of anything outside your small town, why SHOULD you care about anyone else?
2008-01-15 06:44 < Mike_H> You won't see them.
2008-01-15 06:44 < Mike_H> You don't know them.
2008-01-15 06:45 < jhattara> *religious right
2008-01-15 06:45 < jhattara> although we have a christian democratic party here in finland, it's quite marginal with about 5% backing
2008-01-15 06:45 < NotASpy> something like the NHS would be monumentally expensive to create in the USA now, which is perhaps another reason that scepticism of socialism prevails. You've already got a world class healthcare system without having to adopt a socialist ideal, so why change.
2008-01-15 06:45 < jhattara> and i think it's more on the left side of things than on the right side
2008-01-15 06:45 < jhattara> NotASpy, does US have a world class healthcare system ?
2008-01-15 06:45 < Mike_H> NotASpy: That and the ideal of "communism" still permeates through that
2008-01-15 06:46 < mavhk> so you just need to wait for the crazy scared of commuism people in usa to die, which will be quicker with no health care
2008-01-15 06:46 < Mike_H> which for at least the next decade or two, anything remotely socialist in ideal will not get wide support in this country
2008-01-15 06:46 < Mike_H> if not longer
2008-01-15 06:46 < NotASpy> jhattara: apparently so, though people who choose between feeding their families and paying for health cover might disagree.
2008-01-15 06:47 < Mike_H> NotASpy: In certain states they've enacted free health care for children if the families are at poverty level or just above
2008-01-15 06:47 < Mike_H> I know they do that in Florida
2008-01-15 06:47 < jhattara> US spends more money on health care than any other country in the world, and yet they have people who don't have possibilities for a proper health care
2008-01-15 06:48 < Mike_H> The issue this election will definitely be the economy. We're in a downturn, people are out of work, prices are STILL going up on the most basic of items
2008-01-15 06:48 < Mike_H> It should not cost $5 for a gallon of milk, I'm so sorry.
2008-01-15 06:49 < jhattara> $5 / gallon, that's $1.25 / litre, that's about the same cost as in finland (80 euro cents/liter)
2008-01-15 06:49 < Mike_H> Americans aren't used to those prices.
2008-01-15 06:49 < Mike_H> They're usually around $3 to $3.50 a gallon
2008-01-15 06:49 < Mike_H> at least they were just last year.
2008-01-15 06:50 < Mike_H> and even on non-essential consumption items, the prices have gone up
2008-01-15 06:50 < arcimboldo_> Well, you've been lucky that all those countries like China have lent money to the US in order to cover for its trade balance deficit.
2008-01-15 06:50 < Mike_H> nearly double the increase on Coca-Cola
2008-01-15 06:50 < NotASpy> Mike_H: it ain't going to get cheaper anytime soon. This is what happens when you've got fuel companies and farmers outbidding each other for grain, when farmers are growing more crops to turn into biofuel instead of cattle feed and so on.
2008-01-15 06:50 < arcimboldo_> From here it will just go downhill ;)
2008-01-15 06:50 < jhattara> i hope that democrats win the presidency, all the republicans seem like guys that would be laughed out of politics around here
2008-01-15 06:50 < arcimboldo_> indeed
2008-01-15 06:51 < Mike_H> Both parties fuck it up at various points.
2008-01-15 06:51 < Mike_H> It's the Republicans' turn.
2008-01-15 06:51 < NotASpy> I paid the equivalent of $2.60 for a loaf of bread last night, for example. That's probably 60 cents or so more expensive than it was this time last year.
2008-01-15 06:51 < Mike_H> The last time the Democrats fucked up the country it was the late 1970s.
2008-01-15 06:51 < Mike_H> NotASpy: Yeah, bread here has gone up to about $1.80
2008-01-15 06:51 < jhattara> maybe Rudy Giuliani could manage in european politics
2008-01-15 06:51 < Mike_H> from $1.15
2008-01-15 06:52 < NotASpy> we did have a pretty crap summer, lots of flooding, so it's partially a regional thing, but we're having to buy in grain from you folks in the US, which, by the time it's processed and shipped over, makes things even more expensive.
2008-01-15 06:52 < Mike_H> The last time I bought a two-liter of Coke, it was like $1.97
2008-01-15 06:53 < Mike_H> it used to be like $1.25
2008-01-15 06:53 < zocky> hi
2008-01-15 06:53 < Mike_H> Gas is above $3 a gallon now and is probably going to stay that way
2008-01-15 06:53 < jhattara> that's cheap
2008-01-15 06:53 < Mike_H> I know Europeans don't like hearing about that particular one, but we're not used to that
2008-01-15 06:53 < NotASpy> I gotta run, lecture time.
2008-01-15 06:53 < Mike_H> To Americans that is a huge deal.
2008-01-15 06:53 < jhattara> 1.4 euros / litre
2008-01-15 06:54 < Mike_H> Americans' lives revolve around the car, a lot more so than Europeans.
2008-01-15 06:54 < Reedy_Boy> £1.05 /litre in UK...
2008-01-15 06:54 < Mike_H> In England you can just use the train wherever.
2008-01-15 06:54 < jhattara> that's like $8 / gallon
2008-01-15 06:54 < Mike_H> In the US you can't do that.
2008-01-15 06:54 < zocky> yeah, about 2 dollars per litre all over europe
2008-01-15 06:54 < Mike_H> not to commute to work at any rate.
2008-01-15 06:54 < Reedy_Boy> We dont even have a regular bus service where i live - one a week
2008-01-15 06:54 < jhattara> in finland most of the population drive to work, 1 person per car
2008-01-15 06:54 < zocky> Mike_H, actually, I think driving a kilometer costs about the same in europe and US
2008-01-15 06:55 < zocky> it's just that your cars burn so much fuel
2008-01-15 06:55 < Mike_H> zocky: Our mpg ratings and stuff are really outdated
2008-01-15 06:55 < Mike_H> nobody's had to look at that stuff since the 1970s.
2008-01-15 06:55 < Mike_H> My mother fears that if we have some crisis in South America or the Middle East, we will have to go back to how it was in 1974
2008-01-15 06:56 < zocky> probably driving a twingo to work would be very cheap in US
2008-01-15 06:56 < Mike_H> where she could only fill up her tank at a certain time, once a week
2008-01-15 06:56 < Mike_H> as dictated by the number on her license plate
2008-01-15 06:56 < zocky> but I don't think they sell many twingos in US
2008-01-15 06:56 < jhattara> i wouldn't even consider a car that would do less than 23 mpg in cities
2008-01-15 06:56 < Mike_H> zocky: Well, gas has been one of those blessings in the US where people never had to worry about mpg ratings for a long time
2008-01-15 06:56 < Mike_H> like, only older people did
2008-01-15 06:57 < Mike_H> younger people bought what was cuter, or what color this came in, or if it offered XM Radio or whatnot
2008-01-15 06:58 < Mike_H> and in different parts of the country there are different priorities, like people will buy a gas-guzzler if it means there's AC in the car
2008-01-15 06:58 < Mike_H> which you just can't live without in the summer
2008-01-15 06:58 < zocky> Mike_H, which is somewhat funny, since 30-40 years ago everybody lived without it just fine
2008-01-15 06:58 < Mike_H> I don't think they did in Florida :D
2008-01-15 06:59 < Mike_H> well, they lived without it
2008-01-15 06:59 < Mike_H> but they didn't like it
2008-01-15 06:59 < arcimboldo_> we lived without Internet 30-40 years ago.
2008-01-15 06:59 < Mike_H> There's a reason why AC is almost 100% standard in every building in Florida
2008-01-15 06:59 < jhattara> pretty much all the cars sold in here have AC, and doing less than 23mpg is a lot
2008-01-15 06:59 < Mike_H> Even in my mother's day, AC was standard in all public buildings in Florida
2008-01-15 06:59 < arcimboldo_> and without credit cards.
2008-01-15 06:59 < Mike_H> and that was over 40 years ago
2008-01-15 07:00 < Mike_H> so much so that some houses may have AC but no heat
2008-01-15 07:00 < Mike_H> which we don't need heat all that often, but on a night like this one we just had, we do
2008-01-15 07:00 < Mike_H> Currently it is 37 degrees F
2008-01-15 07:01 < Mike_H> http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/USFL0291_c.html
2008-01-15 07:01 < Mike_H> for the C people
2008-01-15 07:01 < Mike_H> Our average high and low for January here is 70/52
2008-01-15 07:01 < Mike_H> or 21/11
2008-01-15 07:03 < jhattara> we have about the same temperature in here atm
2008-01-15 07:03 < zocky> Mike_H, one reason everybody needs AC is that everybody else has it, so the temperature in the cities is 5 degrees more than it would be otherwise
2008-01-15 07:03 < arcimboldo_> A city like Houston would never have been built to that extent if AC didn't exist.
2008-01-15 07:03 < jhattara> average january would be around 20-25 F
2008-01-15 07:04 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: Agreed. Florida would not be livable if AC did not exist either.
2008-01-15 07:04 < Mike_H> There is a reason why Florida's population boomed after 1920.
2008-01-15 07:04 < Mike_H> It's the advent of air conditioning.
2008-01-15 07:04 < jhattara> people live in hotter climates without AC
2008-01-15 07:05 < jhattara> it's just a matter of what you are accustomed to
2008-01-15 07:05 < arcimboldo_> But typically and 3rd world conditions.
2008-01-15 07:05 < arcimboldo_> and -> under
2008-01-15 07:06 < zocky> i don't know. nobody had AC here until it became cheap some 10 years ago
2008-01-15 07:06 < Mike_H> zocky: AC was one of those luxuries that people HAD to have in Florida
2008-01-15 07:06 < zocky> now lots of people have it who lived just fine without it until recently
2008-01-15 07:06 < Mike_H> and can you blame them?
2008-01-15 07:06 < Mike_H> It's muggy and hot six months out of the year, it feels like death the moment you step out into it
2008-01-15 07:06 < Luna-San> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiARsQSlzDc <-- this is without a doubt the best animation project I've ever seen
2008-01-15 07:07 < Rinn> Smarties!
2008-01-15 07:07 < zocky> Mike_H, of course it feels like death when you step into 35C/90% humidity from an air conditioned house
2008-01-15 07:08 < zocky> traditionally people in hot places worked early in the morning and late in the afternoon and had a siesta during the really hot hours
2008-01-15 07:08 < jhattara> they would live there as well without the AC
2008-01-15 07:08 < jhattara> like in Spain e.g.
2008-01-15 07:08 < arcimboldo_> The people who live in the desert are typically genetically more predisposed to the sun and heat than a bunch of folks of Irish origin.
2008-01-15 07:08 < zocky> now they have 9-5 jobs in spain
2008-01-15 07:08 < NastyAccident> Whoever recommended that one song...
2008-01-15 07:08 < jhattara> everything stops for 2 hours in middle of the day
2008-01-15 07:08 < NastyAccident> Right on the monies.
2008-01-15 07:08 < NastyAccident> Great track for my 70s memory bit.
2008-01-15 07:08 < Mike_H> I did
2008-01-15 07:09 < NastyAccident> Many thanks Mike_H
2008-01-15 07:09 < Mike_H> and honestly, heat would be much better if it were in Las Vegas
2008-01-15 07:09 < Mike_H> where it gets to 104
2008-01-15 07:09 < Mike_H> but the humidity is like 20%
2008-01-15 07:10 < Mike_H> here it'll get to 104, but humidity levels will stay at like 80%
2008-01-15 07:11 < Mike_H> jhattara: Oh, new approval numbers out for Bush today
2008-01-15 07:11 < Mike_H> Beset by growing economic concerns on top of the long unpopular war in Iraq, President Bush starts the last year of his presidency with the worst approval rating of his career.
2008-01-15 07:11 < jhattara> which is ?
2008-01-15 07:11 < Mike_H> Just 32 percent of Americans now approve of the way Bush is handling his job, while 66 percent disapprove. Bush's work on the economy has likewise reached a new low.
2008-01-15 07:11 < jhattara> :)
2008-01-15 07:12 < jhattara> i hope that reflects to the other republican candidates
2008-01-15 07:12 < zocky> he's still way more popular than chirac was
2008-01-15 07:12 < Mike_H> We haven't seen approval ratings this low on a president since Nixon in 1974
2008-01-15 07:12 < Mike_H> honestly
2008-01-15 07:12 < arcimboldo_> Even the Americans realized it at some point ;)
2008-01-15 07:12 < Mike_H> And he shows no gain on Iraq; despite reduced violence there, 64 percent say the war was not worth fighting, 2 points from its high.
2008-01-15 07:12 < jhattara> arcimboldo_, too bad it took them just over 4 years to realize it
2008-01-15 07:12 < arcimboldo_> Just eight years too late ...
2008-01-15 07:12 < Mike_H> Given these complaints, 77 percent in this ABC News/Washington Post poll say the country is headed off on the wrong track -- the most since the federal government shut down in a deeply unpopular budget battle in early 1996.
2008-01-15 07:13 < Mike_H> Three post-World War II presidents have gone lower than Bush in overall approval -- Jimmy Carter (28 percent), Richard Nixon (24 percent) and Harry Truman (22 percent).
2008-01-15 07:13 < Mike_H> But after three straight years in the doghouse, Bush is just two months away from Truman's record of 38 months without majority approval -- far beyond any other.
2008-01-15 07:14 < zocky> it's still amazing that a hundred million people think he's doing OK
2008-01-15 07:14 < jhattara> and when was the inauguration of the next president ? around next new year ?
2008-01-15 07:14 < Mike_H> January 20, next year
2008-01-15 07:14 < jhattara> so he'll get 12 more months to that statistic
2008-01-15 07:15 < jhattara> or is it 13 ?
2008-01-15 07:15 < Mike_H> the article also says that this is his first time below one-third approval, ever
2008-01-15 07:15 < Mike_H> Intensity of sentiment, moreover, remains very heavily against the president. Fifty-one percent strongly disapprove of his work overall, while just 16 percent strongly approve -- strongly negative by better than a 3-1 ratio.
2008-01-15 07:16 < jhattara> something like 51-17-16-16 from strong negative to strong positive ?
2008-01-15 07:16 < Mike_H> probably, yeah
2008-01-15 07:16 < arcimboldo_> So was Carter lower than Bush or not? The statement above would contradict that.
2008-01-15 07:17 * arcimboldo_ liked Jimmy Carter
2008-01-15 07:17 < Mike_H> Just 28 percent now approve of how Bush is handling the economy, down 6 points in the last month and down from 40 percent in June.
2008-01-15 07:17 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: Yes, Jimmy Carter did fall below Bush.
2008-01-15 07:17 < Mike_H> He was not a popular president stateside.
2008-01-15 07:17 < Mike_H> His weaknesses were not curbing stagflation, not resolving the oil crisis, and having a weak hand with the hostage crisis.
2008-01-15 07:17 < arcimboldo_> I guess it was in particular the Iran hostage liberation disaster that "killed" him.
2008-01-15 07:18 < arcimboldo_> At least in the end.
2008-01-15 07:18 < arcimboldo_> But anyhow, I was too young to understand it in all detail ...
2008-01-15 07:18 < Mike_H> IRAQ -- The war in Iraq is another story; views on the war do predict Bush's ratings, and those views are broadly negative. Just 30 percent approve of how he's handling it, 2 points from his low, and again strong disapprovers outnumber strong approvers by 3-1.
2008-01-15 07:19 < Mike_H> Among those who disapprove of the war, Bush's approval rating is 12 percent; "wrong track," 91 percent.
2008-01-15 07:19 < arcimboldo_> If they had just realized that BEFORE the war ..
2008-01-15 07:19 < arcimboldo_> and if the public opinion were not dominated by Fox news and the like ...
2008-01-15 07:19 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: Hardly any Americans realized that before the war. There were really no tests to show that to anyone.
2008-01-15 07:20 < arcimboldo_> Well, the things is that all the arguments were more or less already known to the Europeans ...
2008-01-15 07:20 < Mike_H> Europeans nitpick our politics a lot, and I think it's because they're more liberal than we are. They'll speak up on things we don't even notice.
2008-01-15 07:20 < Zach> is there a way to have two seperate sets of <references/>?
2008-01-15 07:20 < arcimboldo_> UN inspectors confirmed that Iraq was compliant and there was no sign of active WMP programs ...
2008-01-15 07:21 < Mike_H> When it comes to politics, Americans and Europeans really speak from different spheres.
2008-01-15 07:21 < Zach> one for footnotes, one for actual references?
2008-01-15 07:21 < Mike_H> They're hardly, if ever, coincidental.
2008-01-15 07:21 < arcimboldo_> Mike_H: agreed ... although I think it is partly related to the media situation ...
2008-01-15 07:22 < Zach> like for example, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty-fifth_Minnesota_Legislature#Notes
2008-01-15 07:22 < Mike_H> FOX News is not a horribly strong media outlet.
2008-01-15 07:22 < Mike_H> When it came on the scene, CNN had already been there for 15 years.
2008-01-15 07:22 < Mike_H> There's a lot of loyalty there.
2008-01-15 07:22 < arcimboldo_> but Fox is the most viewed afaik
2008-01-15 07:22 < Mike_H> The people who watch FOX News basically want to believe that stuff, and I say, hey, let them.
2008-01-15 07:22 < Zach> i want one set for footnotes on the table, and a second for general references
2008-01-15 07:22 < Mike_H> They're about equal now.
2008-01-15 07:22 < Mike_H> But they're different audiences.
2008-01-15 07:23 < Mike_H> People who watch FOX News felt that their voice wasn't heard before then. Now it is. So I say if they want to migrate over there, let them.
2008-01-15 07:23 < Mike_H> Easier for me to ignore.
2008-01-15 07:23 < arcimboldo_> CNN is certainly more liberal ... but even there, the topics are quite different from what they might be in the typical European news broadcast.
2008-01-15 07:23 < arcimboldo_> Iraq war was one example.
2008-01-15 07:24 < arcimboldo_> global warming is another
2008-01-15 07:24 < Mike_H> See, global warming...it's not been a really popular issue
2008-01-15 07:24 < Mike_H> not until last year at any rate
2008-01-15 07:24 < Mike_H> while other countries had been thinking about it for 10, 20 years, it really just came to the widespread American consciousness last year.
2008-01-15 07:25 < Mike_H> We knew about it, but we kind of brushed it off?
2008-01-15 07:25 < arcimboldo_> Well, it was highly controversial of course ...
2008-01-15 07:25 < arcimboldo_> But I think the evidence has been getting stronger
2008-01-15 07:26 < Mike_H> oh, for sure
2008-01-15 07:26 < Mike_H> With America and politics, it's really funny
2008-01-15 07:26 < Mike_H> because Europeans notice things wrong with our system years before we do
2008-01-15 07:26 < Mike_H> and Americans don't like foreigners criticizing our politics and government
2008-01-15 07:27 < Mike_H> which is laughable
2008-01-15 07:27 < Mike_H> since we have a heavy hand in everyone else's.
2008-01-15 07:28 < Mike_H> and I don't think that heavy hand will change so much with a new president or a new party. I don't think it will ever change...it will just become less noticeable and obnoxious.
2008-01-15 07:31 < arcimboldo_> There is some envy in the game of course ...
2008-01-15 07:31 < Mike_H> The enigma about Bush is that he styles himself Joe Hillbilly from Redneck, Texas, when his family was upper-crust and anything but. I just find that so humorous. I think it's just because he's stupid. It's as if Billy Joe Smooter from Bumfuck, Arkansas became president.
2008-01-15 07:32 < arcimboldo_> The USA have been so successful that it is just relieving to see that they're now struggling more ...
2008-01-15 07:32 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: Well, don't think this is the first time we've struggled
2008-01-15 07:32 < Mike_H> it's just the first time in a while.
2008-01-15 07:32 < Mike_H> The last time our economy has slowed down this much was 30 years ago.
2008-01-15 07:33 < Rinn> :(
2008-01-15 07:33 < Rinn> I got a box of candy canes, but they're tightly wrapped so that I can't get the wrapping off without snapping the cane.
2008-01-15 07:34 < arcimboldo_> There's a thing they call scissor.
2008-01-15 07:34 < Mike_H> arcimboldo_: In any case, the economy slowdown was so long ago that millions and millions of people, pretty much anyone below 35, doesn't know about it
2008-01-15 07:34 < Rinn> I've tried that. They're wrapped too tightly.
2008-01-15 07:35 < Mike_H> they've lived well, so this is a shock to them
2008-01-15 07:35 < Mike_H> it's the older people who are wary
2008-01-15 07:35 < Rinn> The only way I've succeeded in getting the wrapping off without breaking the cane is by using a razor blade on the plastic. And even then, I chipped off a few bits.
2008-01-15 07:35 < arcimboldo_> how about a needle?
2008-01-15 07:35 < Mike_H> I'm going to nap
2008-01-15 07:35 < Mike_H> bbl
2008-01-15 07:35 < Rinn> I don't have any needles.
2008-01-15 07:36 < Rinn> I guess a safety pin would work.
2008-01-15 07:36 < arcimboldo_> Suertes Suenos
2008-01-15 07:38 < Luna-San> I assume there's bunched up bits of plastic at either end of the cane; could start peeling from those.
2008-01-15 07:39 < Luna-San> But I tend to be lazy and just snap the canes in half, to get them started. >.> So probably the wrong person to ask.
2008-01-15 07:40 < Rinn> That's what I first tried. Didn't work.
2008-01-15 07:41 < Rinn> DAAAGH
2008-01-15 07:41 < Rinn> I managed to get the wrapper a little bit off by taking off some bits with the safety pin and then peeling, but I accidentally broke the cane peeling the rest of the wrapper off.
2008-01-15 07:50 < Rinn> Domster is an anagram of "redmost!"
2008-01-15 07:54 < arcimboldo_> stormed
2008-01-15 07:55 < Rinn> That's a better one.
2008-01-15 08:04 < arcimboldo_> Oh Happy Birthday Wikipedia
2008-01-15 08:04 < TheLetterE> arcimboldo_: :)
2008-01-15 08:16 < Drunken_Idiot> Be back later. Have to go to the hospital again.
2008-01-15 08:18 < Paine> and we have a new leader in the "most annoying quit message" competition
2008-01-15 08:20 < Triona> Paine: lame would be using colors there.
2008-01-15 08:20 < Paine> it probably does, I think we have colour stripping on in here
2008-01-15 08:20 < Paine> do we?
2008-01-15 08:20 < Triona> oh, yeah, duh
2008-01-15 08:20 < Triona> lol
2008-01-15 08:22 < arcimboldo_> Is it just me who does not see join/leave/nickchange messages on this channel any more?
2008-01-15 08:22 < Triona> Apparently.
2008-01-15 08:23 < Triona> You must have them turned off in your client.
2008-01-15 08:23 < arcimboldo_> I wonder how I did that
2008-01-15 08:23 < Tony_Sidaway> arcimboldo_: it's just you. I get them.
2008-01-15 08:23 < arcimboldo_> Since on all the other tables I get them too.
2008-01-15 08:23 < Triona> Some clients automatically turn them off if the channel's too big.
2008-01-15 08:23 < arcimboldo_> hm ...
2008-01-15 08:23 < Triona> for various client-dependant values of "too big"
2008-01-15 08:23 < arcimboldo_> Maybe 200 is too big ...
2008-01-15 08:24 < arcimboldo_> Found it ...
2008-01-15 08:24 < Tony_Sidaway> It's too big. You all should leave.
2008-01-15 08:24 < arcimboldo_> I've set "conference mode" to over 500.
2008-01-15 08:25 < arcimboldo_> So unfortunately the most annoying quite message ever escaped me.
2008-01-15 08:26 < Paine> Drunken_Idiot has quit IRC ("I am Using Ebless ScripT v8 Special For Ops, If you Want Best Channel Protection, DownLoad your Copy From - http://i.am/Ebles)
2008-01-15 08:28 < arcimboldo_> tx
2008-01-15 08:29 < Triona> Somehow I think you can disable conference mode altogether.
2008-01-15 08:32 < arcimboldo_> Actually, it may not be bad to have it on channels like #ubuntu
2008-01-15 09:01 < Tony_Sidaway> xxx_ darling do you think you could stop that bouncing around, please?
2008-01-15 09:05 < NotACow> moo
2008-01-15 10:24 < Tony_Sidaway> Some computer-savvy people around? Please look at this and add comments, additions and corrections (on the page please): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scripting_language#Historical_context
2008-01-15 10:30 < Mike3> youtube is down :(
2008-01-15 10:31 < Thx> realy?
2008-01-15 10:33 < wimt> Yeah, seems to be down everywhere.
2008-01-15 10:35 < wimt> Back now :-)
2008-01-15 10:35 < Thx> oh :)
2008-01-15 10:40 < Viele-baeren> hi
2008-01-15 10:48 < Mike3> hi
2008-01-15 11:07 < brown_cat> to all apple lovers - see the teaser at http://www.apple.com/
2008-01-15 11:08 * brown_cat waves to wimt ^_^
2008-01-15 11:08 < wimt> Hey brown_cat :-)
2008-01-15 11:09 < Leslie_S> sigh, my dad is such a cock.
2008-01-15 11:09 < Leslie_S> :(
2008-01-15 11:15 < brown_cat> how long until 9 AM PST?
2008-01-15 11:16 < wimt> 45 mins I think
2008-01-15 11:16 < Luna-San> what wimt said
2008-01-15 11:16 < wimt> :-)
2008-01-15 11:19 < The359> Apple?
2008-01-15 11:19 < The359> They're still around?
2008-01-15 11:24 < kf4yfd> anyone else not able to connect to wikipedia / wikimedia ??
2008-01-15 11:25 < kf4yfd> figures... as soon as I say something it works... lol
2008-01-15 11:32 < Fabexplosive> hello
2008-01-15 11:35 < kf4yfd> um.. hi :)
2008-01-15 11:39 < The359> The system is down, yo
2008-01-15 11:41 < placebo_effect> man, not on wikipedia day
2008-01-15 11:41 < Orderinchaos> what?
2008-01-15 11:41 < Leslie_S> wtf is with teachers who teach that the coriolis effect is why water going down a drain rotates in a specific direction?
2008-01-15 11:41 < Leslie_S> its really pretty obvious if you know ANYTHING about the coriolis effect.
2008-01-15 11:41 < Orderinchaos> status:iffy is about right atm.
2008-01-15 11:41 < nsh> what exactly do you know about the coriolis effect, Leslie_?
2008-01-15 11:42 < nsh> also
2008-01-15 11:42 < nsh> where's a good channel for GPS and GIS related questions?
2008-01-15 11:43 < Luna-San> That's the first I've heard anybody mention GIS on this server at all... =\
2008-01-15 11:45 * nsh was wondering if it would be completely impossible to use GPS to make geographic-location determined access to (for instance) radio streams. Like a radio hotspot but completely digital. Using someone's gps coordinates to determine if they are allowed the key to decode the stream. But i'm not sure if it's possible to prove where someone is from the gps data they provide
2008-01-15 11:45 < nsh> which is to say, is GPS data encoded such that it cannot be faked
2008-01-15 11:47 < IceKarma> nsh, hmm hmmm
2008-01-15 11:53 < quanticle> nsh: GPS data isn't encoded that way at all. GPS coordinates are just another coordinate system for the Earth, like latitude and longitude
2008-01-15 11:54 < kf4yfd> nsh: see http://www.precisionag.org/WestHills/Papers/NMEA.doc . it is the standard GPS output format
2008-01-15 11:54 < kf4yfd> nsh: and it is completely fakeable
2008-01-15 11:55 < nsh> hrmm
2008-01-15 11:55 < nsh> lame. thanks though
2008-01-15 11:55 < kf4yfd> nsh: np
2008-01-15 11:55 < koavf> Is en.wp down?
2008-01-15 11:56 < RobJ1981> hi
2008-01-15 11:56 < kf4yfd> koavf: I've been having problems all morning. Where are you located ? (state)
2008-01-15 11:56 < koavf> Indianapolis, IN
2008-01-15 11:56 < kf4yfd> k0avf: you on comcast as well ?
2008-01-15 11:56 < koavf> Yes.
2008-01-15 11:57 < koavf> Where are you?
2008-01-15 11:57 < koavf> Meta is giving me problems as well.
2008-01-15 11:57 < kf4yfd> koavf: pittsburgh, also on comcast
2008-01-15 11:58 < koavf> Anyone else experiences problems with en.wp?
2008-01-15 12:01 < koavf> Pages perpetually load.
2008-01-15 12:02 < koavf> Firefox 2.x and Windows XP SP2.
2008-01-15 12:02 * nsh isn't (.fi)
2008-01-15 12:05 < koavf> I guess it's back. Thanks anyway.
2008-01-15 12:24 < Sfan00> GRRR
2008-01-15 12:24 < Sfan00> I am pissed off
2008-01-15 12:24 < brown_cat> a 1TB apple tv!!
2008-01-15 12:24 < Sfan00> I ask ona forums site for advice in respect of support for an ancient OS and I get reffered to abndonware sites..
2008-01-15 12:24 < Sfan00> <seethe, fume, seethe>
2008-01-15 12:25 < Sfan00> Thechinaly abandonware should be abandonwarez , cause unless it's been liberated it's not public folks :0
2008-01-15 12:25 < Sfan00> I take ti that i have free reign to remove links to sites that host abandonwarex from en?
2008-01-15 12:25 < Sfan00> *abandonwarez
2008-01-15 12:27 < Sfan00> brown_CAT: Hi
2008-01-15 12:27 * brown_cat waves to Sfan00
2008-01-15 12:28 < brown_cat> Sfan00: apple just released a 1TB airport for $500!!
2008-01-15 12:28 < brown_cat> :D
2008-01-15 12:28 < Sfan00> 1TB LOL
2008-01-15 12:28 < Sfan00> LOL
2008-01-15 12:28 < Sfan00> LOL
2008-01-15 12:28 < brown_cat> I am dead serious :D
2008-01-15 12:28 < Sfan00> How needs that much data other than big companies?
2008-01-15 12:28 < Sfan00> *who
2008-01-15 12:28 < kenlyric> Sfan00: um
2008-01-15 12:29 < quanticle> Sfan00: Well, what is the context for the link
2008-01-15 12:29 < kenlyric> people who download movies from itunes....
2008-01-15 12:29 < kenlyric> it's a wireless backup machine.
2008-01-15 12:29 < quanticle> Sfan00: Anyone with a half-decent movie collection
2008-01-15 12:29 < Sfan00> I mean it would be simpler for movie companies to put everything on a disc and just sell the media keys :O
2008-01-15 12:29 < quanticle> Sfan00: Especially if you're moving to HD
2008-01-15 12:29 < kenlyric> Sfan00: welcome to 2008?
2008-01-15 12:29 < kenlyric> discs are the wave of the PAST
2008-01-15 12:29 < Sfan00> Quanticle: You aren't supposed to backup up HD
2008-01-15 12:29 < Sfan00> At least not commerical ones
2008-01-15 12:30 < quanticle> Sfan00: I know. Doesn't mean that people aren't doing it
2008-01-15 12:30 < kenlyric> you don't need to back them up. YOu can download them.
2008-01-15 12:30 < kenlyric> and then back them up.
2008-01-15 12:30 < kenlyric> legally
2008-01-15 12:30 < Sfan00> I can see why you might need 1TB discs if you are downloading legally though
2008-01-15 12:30 < quanticle> kenlyric: From where?
2008-01-15 12:30 < kenlyric> quanticle: nowhere I know of yet.
2008-01-15 12:30 < Sfan00> or are in the business of media production
2008-01-15 12:30 < kenlyric> but they're working on it!
2008-01-15 12:30 < Sfan00> quanticle: iTunes?
2008-01-15 12:30 < brown_cat> Sfan00: I currently have 1.2 tb of data :p
2008-01-15 12:30 < Sfan00> brown_cat dis say it was a mac
2008-01-15 12:30 < Demi> it's not good to count on wherever you're getting your media from to still be around when you want to watch it
2008-01-15 12:30 < quanticle> kenlyric: They've been "working" on it for the better part of a decade now
2008-01-15 12:31 < Sfan00> :)
2008-01-15 12:31 < kenlyric> microsoft is very hard at work on digital HD downloads.
2008-01-15 12:31 < quanticle> Sfan00: Not HD?
2008-01-15 12:31 < kenlyric> quanticle: porn sites distribute HD video these days.
2008-01-15 12:31 < brown_cat> xD
2008-01-15 12:31 < Sfan00> LOL
2008-01-15 12:31 < kenlyric> like all innovation, porn leads the WAY!
2008-01-15 12:31 < Sfan00> Hopefully the fact that Sony won't license Blu Ray for porn, will mean the end of the less responsible end of the pron business
2008-01-15 12:31 < Sfan00> *porn
2008-01-15 12:31 < quanticle> Demi: Good point. Google Video had a pay-for-download service, and when they stopped it, all the movies that people had downloaded from it stopped working
2008-01-15 12:32 < Demi> quanticle - yes, and i think the same thing applies to using redownloading as a backup solution
2008-01-15 12:32 < quanticle> Sfan00: Given the way HD-DVD is floundering, I'm not really willing to bet against Blu-Ray
2008-01-15 12:32 < kenlyric> Sfan00: there are ways around it for the less responsible ends of the porn business.
2008-01-15 12:32 < kenlyric> it's the legit companies that are having trouble.
2008-01-15 12:32 < Sfan00> I don't mind being able to download DVD ISO provided I can pay for them if they need to be paid for
2008-01-15 12:32 < Sfan00> :)
2008-01-15 12:32 < Sfan00> For example I don't mind beign able to get Windows SDK's on ISO
2008-01-15 12:32 < Sfan00> :)
2008-01-15 12:33 < Demi> i guess the "less responsible" end of the porn industry is the one that would want to get into bed with sony?
2008-01-15 12:33 < brown_cat> xD
2008-01-15 12:33 < kenlyric> sony has a tiny penis
2008-01-15 12:33 < quanticle> Sfan00: That's just the issue, though. They won't give you content in an open formant like ISO 9660. They'll use some closed, proprietary format with DRM
2008-01-15 12:33 < Sfan00> Demi: I mean the small time producers that don't care about the artists or any sense of moral limits
2008-01-15 12:33 < Sfan00> quanticle: It's a shame software firms don't sell ISO's and product keys
2008-01-15 12:34 < brown_cat> Sfan00: they are currently talking about the latest ipone updates
2008-01-15 12:34 < Demi> i don't see how sony not licensing blu-ray to porn producers has anything to do with that.
2008-01-15 12:34 < brown_cat> now the ipod touch
2008-01-15 12:34 < Sfan00> Demi: VHS is dying
2008-01-15 12:34 < brown_cat> it is dead
2008-01-15 12:34 < Sfan00> HD-DVD is dead in the marketplace
2008-01-15 12:34 < kenlyric> Sfan00: the small time producers making illegal porn have already got underground ways of producing blu-ray
2008-01-15 12:34 < Sfan00> and to do BluRay needs a Sony licence
2008-01-15 12:34 < kenlyric> vhs has been dead for years.
2008-01-15 12:34 < Sfan00> Officaly at any rate ;)
2008-01-15 12:34 < kenlyric> Sfan00: officially being the important word.
2008-01-15 12:34 < Demi> who buys porn on disc, though?
2008-01-15 12:35 < kenlyric> it keeps out legit porn companies only.
2008-01-15 12:35 < kenlyric> Demi: well, nobody.
2008-01-15 12:35 < Demi> i guess the same people that buy porn magazines
2008-01-15 12:35 < kenlyric> see above re: 1TB :)
2008-01-15 12:35 < Demi> kenlyric - right
2008-01-15 12:35 < brown_cat> Sfan00: they ust added to the ipod douch maps, stocks, mail, weather, wifi, webclips, customize and something massive I missed -_-
2008-01-15 12:35 < brown_cat> *touch
2008-01-15 12:35 < brown_cat> srry bout my typing, going fast
2008-01-15 12:35 < brown_cat> now, something itunes
2008-01-15 12:36 < Sfan00> Demi: A lot of far eastern porn is on DISC
2008-01-15 12:36 < quanticle> Sfan00: Well, if they're selling ISOs and product keys, they'd still have to shell out for bandwidth to host, though I suppose Bittorrent would help with that
2008-01-15 12:36 < Sfan00> Yeah
2008-01-15 12:36 < Sfan00> but the improtant thing is sellng the product keys
2008-01-15 12:36 < Sfan00> NOT the software itself
2008-01-15 12:36 < brown_cat> 4 billion songs have been sold on itunes, 20mill on xmas
2008-01-15 12:36 < Demi> Sfan00 - i suppose
2008-01-15 12:36 < Sfan00> I mean bit-torrent distro plus key sale would be a shift in the industry
2008-01-15 12:36 < quanticle> Sfan00: That's what they're doing right now, except that they package the disk for convenience
2008-01-15 12:36 < Sfan00> and it means you don't have to handle defective media
2008-01-15 12:37 < brown_cat> ITUNED MOVIE RENTALS :D
2008-01-15 12:37 < Demi> i bought a video from itunes, i won't again
2008-01-15 12:37 < Sfan00> because the media issue becomes the user responsibiity
2008-01-15 12:37 < brown_cat> Demi: use torrents, they are free :D
2008-01-15 12:37 < quanticle> Sfan00: I just copied my Windows CD for my friend, because he had scratched his disk, and needed a replacement that he could use with his own key
2008-01-15 12:37 < kenlyric> Demi: yeah, paying for anything less than HD video is kinda silly.
2008-01-15 12:37 < Demi> brown_cat - a hassle
2008-01-15 12:37 < Sfan00> brown_cat: Torrents are not always legit
2008-01-15 12:37 < Orderinchaos> hey brown_cat :) long time no see!
2008-01-15 12:38 * brown_cat huggles Orderinchaos
2008-01-15 12:38 < Sfan00> Although there are plenty of legal torrents as well as questionable ones
2008-01-15 12:38 < brown_cat> 20 cent fox, wb, disney, universal, paramound and sony are all in!!! :D
2008-01-15 12:38 < Demi> i don't want to decide to watch something and then wade through a bunch of shitty-ass torrent listers via proxies to find a torrent that runs for a day and a half and then craps out
2008-01-15 12:38 < Sfan00> Personally, I don't see why MS can't see the benefits of P2P + (Secret) key sales
2008-01-15 12:38 < brown_cat> Sfan00: I am saying we should use illegal torrents
2008-01-15 12:38 < Sfan00> Or apple
2008-01-15 12:38 < Demi> but anyway, it was an experiment
2008-01-15 12:39 < quanticle> Demi: ISOHunt
2008-01-15 12:39 < Sfan00> Redhat distros seem to work fine with P2P distro + (purchased) keys
2008-01-15 12:39 < kenlyric> brown_cat: netflix + CloneDVD ;)
2008-01-15 12:39 < kenlyric> it's HALF legal!
2008-01-15 12:39 < brown_cat> :p
2008-01-15 12:39 < brown_cat> xD
2008-01-15 12:39 < kenlyric> and you never get a crappy rip.
2008-01-15 12:39 < Sfan00> kenlyric: "Personal backup" :(
2008-01-15 12:39 < kenlyric> Sfan00: "timeshifting"
2008-01-15 12:39 * Orderinchaos huggles back
2008-01-15 12:39 < Sfan00> ROFL
2008-01-15 12:39 < brown_cat> kenlyric: my friend works at blockbuster - he takes out all the dvd's he likes for free and, then copies them, then takes them back
2008-01-15 12:40 < kenlyric> i'm keeping them in circulation!
2008-01-15 12:40 < quanticle> brown_cat: I was actually thinking of getting a job at blockbuster just so I could do that
2008-01-15 12:40 < Sfan00> brown_cat: is it more or does WA have a problem with morals?
2008-01-15 12:40 < Sfan00> Hardly suprising...
2008-01-15 12:40 < kenlyric> and if I would move faster I'd actually get more output through month.
2008-01-15 12:40 < quanticle> Sfan00: Why just WA
2008-01-15 12:40 < Sfan00> I mean some of the firtsh AUS inhabitants were crooks... :(
2008-01-15 12:40 < brown_cat> Sfan00: everyone I know does it
2008-01-15 12:40 < Sfan00> ;)
2008-01-15 12:41 < Sfan00> *first
2008-01-15 12:41 < Demi> quanticle - i click on an entry, nothing bu hourglass
2008-01-15 12:41 < Demi> quanticle - that's the kind of hassle i mean
2008-01-15 12:41 < Demi> and it still won't solve the problem of bt
2008-01-15 12:42 < brown_cat> Sfan00: I have 4 streams going - when the sound on one cuts out, another is working xD
2008-01-15 12:42 < quanticle> Sfan00: The way I see it, the movie industry is trying to screw me by imposing all sorts of DRM and copy-protection. I figure I ought to be able to do whatever I want to circumvent, as long as they get their cut
2008-01-15 12:42 < Sfan00> The industyr needs to adapt
2008-01-15 12:42 < brown_cat> the people who can't get in must hate me xD
2008-01-15 12:42 < quanticle> Demi: Do you have javascript enabled?
2008-01-15 12:42 < Sfan00> Torrents is a lovely distrbution method
2008-01-15 12:42 < Sfan00> It just needs payment structures
2008-01-15 12:42 < Demi> quanticle - yes
2008-01-15 12:42 < kenlyric> yeah, all this copyright infringement really takes a lot of time.
2008-01-15 12:43 < Sfan00> and means of compensating those that seed legitimatly
2008-01-15 12:43 < kenlyric> I stopped getting music illegally when they stopped making it a bitch to get it legally.
2008-01-15 12:43 < Sfan00> :)
2008-01-15 12:43 < Sfan00> I don't mind paying for content
2008-01-15 12:43 < Sfan00> :)
2008-01-15 12:43 < Guest79> welcome to the club
2008-01-15 12:43 < Sfan00> I do mind paying for tehcnology that doesn't work :)
2008-01-15 12:43 < Orderinchaos> if I pay for music it's got to be on a nice shiny disc. which I do usually buy eventually.
2008-01-15 12:43 < kenlyric> one of the issues I have with legit video is it has a crappy resolution.
2008-01-15 12:44 < quanticle> kenlyric: I stopped getting music (legally or illegally) when they stopped makeing good music
2008-01-15 12:44 < kenlyric> sure it looks fine on your tiny pocket video player.
2008-01-15 12:44 < Orderinchaos> been caught out too many times by formats becoming inaccessible or obsolete to trust online.
2008-01-15 12:44 < Orderinchaos> quanticle: I share your sentiments :P
2008-01-15 12:44 < Demi> quanticle - yeah, so eventually i got a torrent link, and the tracker is down
2008-01-15 12:44 < brown_cat> YES!!!
2008-01-15 12:44 < Demi> this is what i'm talking about
2008-01-15 12:44 < Sfan00> And you sadly don't find Vorbis content on commrcial discs yet
2008-01-15 12:44 < Orderinchaos> I think the last time I downloaded an album was well in excess of a year ago. that's considering I have 94 gigs of music on my hdd
2008-01-15 12:44 < brown_cat> DVD QUA:OTY :D
2008-01-15 12:44 < kenlyric> oh, and lol @ charging $70 or $140 for a season of TV.
2008-01-15 12:44 < kenlyric> I will stab you.
2008-01-15 12:44 < Sfan00> In fact Vorbis is less supported than MP3 despite being an open standard
2008-01-15 12:45 < Demi> quanticle - that's short-sighted, it's very likely you've only heard a tiny fraction of the music released, say, last year
2008-01-15 12:45 < Sfan00> kenlyric: Think how much it costs to mak a series?
2008-01-15 12:45 < Guest79> trackers go down because people servers get raided
2008-01-15 12:45 < quanticle> Demi: I'm surprised you're having so many issues. I usually find ISOHunt to be a pretty reliable source
2008-01-15 12:45 * Demi shrugs
2008-01-15 12:45 < quanticle> Demi: What're you searching for
2008-01-15 12:45 < Demi> it's not like i don't use torrents, i just find it a hassle
2008-01-15 12:45 < kenlyric> Sfan00: they price based on how much people will pay, I suppose.
2008-01-15 12:45 < kenlyric> it's just not what I'm willing to pay.
2008-01-15 12:46 < Guest79> torrents are the safest thing right nowI
2008-01-15 12:46 < Sfan00> I was trying to get together a small film production once... I was told I needed a budget of around 3000 UKP just to get started on equipment
2008-01-15 12:46 < Orderinchaos> <brown_cat> kenlyric: my friend works at blockbuster - he takes out all the dvd's he likes for free and, then copies them, then takes them back <-- doesn't everyone? (except most people obviously pay to rent from blockbuster)
2008-01-15 12:46 < kenlyric> $49.99 for 1 hour show, $29.99 for half-hour show. That's what I'm willing to pay.
2008-01-15 12:46 < Guest79> pity the ppl who use limewire and then get the RIAA on there ass
2008-01-15 12:46 < brown_cat> Orderinchaos: hahaha
2008-01-15 12:46 < kenlyric> less if it's in digital only format.
2008-01-15 12:46 < brown_cat> he doens't pay the rent xD
2008-01-15 12:46 < quanticle> Sfan00: The nice thing about MP3 is that you can get hardware mp3 decoders. I haven't heard of any hardware implementations of vorbis
2008-01-15 12:46 < kenlyric> Guest79: torrents aren't safe.
2008-01-15 12:46 < Sfan00> qunaticle : Hmm
2008-01-15 12:46 < kenlyric> half of our DMCA notices are from bittorrent.
2008-01-15 12:46 < Sfan00> I will ask an FPGA person I know to look into that
2008-01-15 12:46 < Orderinchaos> demi: I am struggling to find a single song released commercially last year which I could find even tolerable. most of it was as musical as melted plastic.
2008-01-15 12:46 < Sfan00> :)
2008-01-15 12:46 < quanticle> kenlyric: You work at an ISP?
2008-01-15 12:46 < Sfan00> Or opencores
2008-01-15 12:47 < kenlyric> quanticle: a college
2008-01-15 12:47 < quanticle> kenlyric: Same thing, then
2008-01-15 12:47 < kenlyric> sadly
2008-01-15 12:47 < Orderinchaos> all the stuff I liked was released independently
2008-01-15 12:47 < Sfan00> The problem is that people use BiTorrent irresponisbly
2008-01-15 12:47 < Demi> Orderinchaos - tastes vary
2008-01-15 12:47 < Guest79> true.
2008-01-15 12:47 < Sfan00> *BitTorrent
2008-01-15 12:47 < quanticle> Sfan00: That's like complaining that speeders and drunk drivers use cars irresponsible
2008-01-15 12:47 < Sfan00> If you only bother to look there's plenty of LEGAL content on BitTorrent
2008-01-15 12:47 < kenlyric> so, while we where yammering about this.
2008-01-15 12:47 < quanticle> *irresponsibly
2008-01-15 12:48 < Demi> Sfan00 - did you see that youtube video of the brits who filmed an omaha beach invasion with a few people?
2008-01-15 12:48 < kenlyric> HD apple tv...
2008-01-15 12:48 < Guest79> yeah like every linux distro ever is on bittorrent
2008-01-15 12:48 < Sfan00> quanticle; yes: and so Congress passed drink control laws
2008-01-15 12:48 < Sfan00> :)
2008-01-15 12:48 < Sfan00> And speeding fines
2008-01-15 12:49 < Guest79> ... Congress is silly now-a-days
2008-01-15 12:49 < quanticle> Sfan00: Right, but we all know how much that actually did to stop speeding and drunk-driving
2008-01-15 12:49 < kenlyric> I wonder what resolution/compression the "HD" videos will actually have.
2008-01-15 12:49 < Sfan00> If you gave out FPN's for bit-torrent abuse you would change attitutdes...
2008-01-15 12:49 < quanticle> kenlyric: On iTunes?
2008-01-15 12:49 < kenlyric> yeah.
2008-01-15 12:49 < Sfan00> FPN=Fixed Penatly Notices)
2008-01-15 12:49 < Demi> that's not a bad analogy, since there are certain traffic laws that are universally held in contempt and violated
2008-01-15 12:49 < Demi> and it indicates the law needs to change, not people's behavior
2008-01-15 12:50 < quanticle> Sfan00: Sort of like speeding tickets on the information superhighway?
2008-01-15 12:50 < Orderinchaos> to be frankly honest I don't have much problem with people copying music for free. the artists get zip out of the deal anyway (I do know a few) and the decent ones make their money from touring... also file sharing tends to lead to musical evangelism, I got into most of the bands I like now (which are really not known in my part of the world at all) through file sharing.
2008-01-15 12:50 < kenlyric> 4 lane street with a 30mph speed limit? screw you!
2008-01-15 12:50 < Sfan00> Qunaticle : Yeah
2008-01-15 12:50 < Sfan00> :)
2008-01-15 12:50 < kenlyric> http://cf.media.macrumorslive.com/p/f1200419281.jpg
2008-01-15 12:50 < kenlyric> boy, they know how to sell to nerds!
2008-01-15 12:50 < kenlyric> geriatric SCIFI!
2008-01-15 12:50 < quanticle> Sfan00: Most people would treat them like speeding tickets today. A minor inconvenience and a reminder to look harder for cops next time