freenode #wikipedia

2008-01-11 13:06 < lc2> Gracenotes: [[Sarcasm]]
2008-01-11 13:06 < Triona> but no tax on "wages"
2008-01-11 13:07 < lc2> Triona: abolishing the income tax altogether would not be hard
2008-01-11 13:07 < Gracenotes> lc2: [[Irony|same here...]]
2008-01-11 13:07 < lc2> as i said, reducing spending to that of 2000 would cover it, some say {{fact}}
2008-01-11 13:07 < Triona> lc2: doing so without otherwise funding the government would be disasterous.
2008-01-11 13:07 < lc2> (which wouldn't be difficult)
2008-01-11 13:07 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - that's the point. Captial gains taxes have been substantially reduced over the last 3 republican presidents
2008-01-11 13:08 < Ceiling_Cat> to the point now where they are taxed less than earned income
2008-01-11 13:08 < Ceiling_Cat> (in other words, the interest you get on your money is taxed less than the money you earn by actually working for it)
2008-01-11 13:09 < Triona> we also need to take away congress ability to borrow money
2008-01-11 13:09 < Scott5114> I suppose that's good for savings bonds though.
2008-01-11 13:09 < Ceiling_Cat> Scott5114 - the rich benefit from it *FAR* more than the poor
2008-01-11 13:09 < Scott5114> Does it hurt the poor though?
2008-01-11 13:10 < Ceiling_Cat> Yes
2008-01-11 13:10 < Ceiling_Cat> the money has to come from somewhere
2008-01-11 13:10 < Scott5114> How so?
2008-01-11 13:10 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-11 13:10 < Ceiling_Cat> and if it's not the rich paying for it, they have ot make it up by taxing the poor
2008-01-11 13:10 < Triona> actually, good structure for a balenced budget amendment.
2008-01-11 13:10 < Scott5114> Not really. That could tax the middle class *ducks*
2008-01-11 13:10 < Ceiling_Cat> By "poor" I mean indigant and middle class
2008-01-11 13:10 < Ceiling_Cat> as opposed to rich -- as in, the investor class
2008-01-11 13:11 < Scott5114> More incentive to become rich, I guess.
2008-01-11 13:11 < Scott5114> but seriously...
2008-01-11 13:11 < Ceiling_Cat> Scott5114 - somehow I don't think people need more incentives to get rich
2008-01-11 13:11 < Scott5114> they should throw the laws out every so often so things like that don't happen
2008-01-11 13:11 < Scott5114> (I was joking about incentive) :P
2008-01-11 13:12 < Triona> Scott5114: I think you are on the right idea.
2008-01-11 13:12 < Triona> but, instead of throwing them out every so often, let's limit how much law can be made at each level
2008-01-11 13:12 < Scott5114> It's pretty bad when people quit voting because they figure no matter who gets elected they'll do the same thing
2008-01-11 13:13 < Ceiling_Cat> Scott5114 - the devil of it is, I can't really decide how to allot the blame. The republicans deserve a whole lot of it, because they were the ones who directly pushed these things into public policy
2008-01-11 13:13 < Triona> the criminal code doesn't need to change often at all.
2008-01-11 13:13 < Ceiling_Cat> the democrats deserve some because they were complicit
2008-01-11 13:13 < Scott5114> I think we should make it easier for third parties to participate.
2008-01-11 13:13 < Ceiling_Cat> (often times divided, with some crossing party lines to support and some opposing)
2008-01-11 13:14 < Ceiling_Cat> I also think the media deserves a lot of the blame - and the 24 hour news cycle in particular
2008-01-11 13:14 < Ceiling_Cat> I think the 24 hour news cycle, starting in the early 80s with CNN, is the worst thing thta has happened to this country
2008-01-11 13:14 < Ceiling_Cat> because reasoned debate is gone. We live in a world of sound bytes
2008-01-11 13:14 < Triona> Scott5114: subdividing the government into it's functions would also help
2008-01-11 13:14 < lc2> i think tv is the worst thing that has happened in recent history
2008-01-11 13:15 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - the TV is 60+ years old
2008-01-11 13:15 < Scott5114> Triona: what, like spinning off government orgs into private businesses?
2008-01-11 13:15 < Ceiling_Cat> you can't really call that recent
2008-01-11 13:15 < Triona> Scott5114: like making government agencies autonomous
2008-01-11 13:15 < Triona> so that they can focus on getting their jobs done
2008-01-11 13:15 < Ceiling_Cat> (Truman was the first US president to appear on TV)
2008-01-11 13:15 < Scott5114> well, that varies by department.
2008-01-11 13:15 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: well, i can't say tv is a worse invention than, say, warfare, or government
2008-01-11 13:15 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-11 13:15 < Scott5114> Most departments of transportation seem to do whatever the hell they want.
2008-01-11 13:16 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: 60 years is "recent" as far as history goes
2008-01-11 13:16 < White_Cat> do you think we can grant every user a rollback privilage?
2008-01-11 13:16 < Triona> and electing people directly into the departments
2008-01-11 13:16 < Scott5114> they're only governed by the budget and department secretary appointment.
2008-01-11 13:16 < lc2> Triona: i'm in favour of voting on laws directly
2008-01-11 13:16 < Ceiling_Cat> Here's the thing, I'm trying to figure out what changed between the 1960s and 70s (when you had a majority of republicans who, after convincing congressional investigations, were ready to impeach Nixon) and today
2008-01-11 13:16 < lc2> Triona: that way, nothing would ever get done
2008-01-11 13:16 < Triona> lc2: only if it has to be a unanimous vote.
2008-01-11 13:17 < Triona> otherwise, we'll be voting in some very oppresive laws
2008-01-11 13:17 < Ceiling_Cat> what happened in 80s, 90s, and 00s to change the congress into what it is today?
2008-01-11 13:17 < Triona> tyrrany of the majority
2008-01-11 13:17 < lc2> Triona: not really
2008-01-11 13:17 < lc2> Triona: doesn't seem to have happened in switzerland
2008-01-11 13:17 < Scott5114> Ceiling_Cat: Political action committees, perhaps?
2008-01-11 13:17 < lc2> Triona: doesn't seem to have happened anywhere, in fact, other than peoples imaginations
2008-01-11 13:17 < Triona> lc2: I'm not sure what safeguards switzerland has
2008-01-11 13:17 < lc2> Triona: very few
2008-01-11 13:17 < Ceiling_Cat> Scott5114 - POSSIBLY
2008-01-11 13:18 < Ceiling_Cat> the corporate influence over congress very well could be one of if not the major cause
2008-01-11 13:18 < Triona> I mean, things like what are in the bill of rights need to be nonnegotiable
2008-01-11 13:18 < Triona> at least, in some form
2008-01-11 13:18 < lc2> Triona: i don't think they need to be
2008-01-11 13:19 < Scott5114> It may be also the trend in elections
2008-01-11 13:19 < Scott5114> What is better, a legislator who votes on his own opinions, or that of his constituents?
2008-01-11 13:19 < Triona> If the people can be convinced to sacrifice their rights, then they eventually will, without realizing the consequences of doing so
2008-01-11 13:19 < quanticle> Triona: Electing people directly into government agencies is a pretty bad idea. Do you really want Congresscritter types to have direct control over policy implementation?
2008-01-11 13:19 < lc2> Triona: in my preferred system, no law would be voted on unless a certain number of people in the population had petitioned to be brought to a vote
2008-01-11 13:20 < lc2> Triona: i.e. there's no politicians or other major concentrations of power
2008-01-11 13:20 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat well
2008-01-11 13:20 < Triona> lc2: in my preferred system, we'd have that, with the additional stipulation of a constitution that was damn near impossible to change
2008-01-11 13:20 < White_Cat> 9/11
2008-01-11 13:20 < quanticle> lc2: That would lead to a tyranny of the majority, though, because no Congressperson would have the ability to stick up for the dispossessed
2008-01-11 13:20 < Scott5114> lc2: Okay then, who executes the laws?
2008-01-11 13:21 < White_Cat> 9/11 = 0.818182
2008-01-11 13:21 < quanticle> White_Cat: OMG It must be a conspiracy :)
2008-01-11 13:21 < lc2> quanticle: and there would be no congressperson to stick up for the "rights" of anyone else
2008-01-11 13:21 < Triona> lc2: namely, a guarantee of rights, protection of the electorial system through which this was to be implemented, etc
2008-01-11 13:21 < lc2> Triona: good point
2008-01-11 13:21 < Scott5114> what's to keep a police department from going nuts, for instance?
2008-01-11 13:22 < quanticle> Scott5114: The courts, perhaps
2008-01-11 13:22 < lc2> Scott5114: a well-armed populace
2008-01-11 13:22 < quanticle> lc2: That's a canard
2008-01-11 13:22 < lc2> quanticle: o rly
2008-01-11 13:22 < quanticle> lc2: Ya rly. You think your handgun or rifle will stop a SWAT team?
2008-01-11 13:22 < Scott5114> lc2: lol, there's generally a lot more policemen than people willing to risk shooting them.
2008-01-11 13:22 < lc2> quanticle: k, you're right, guns would never stop a government that had gone too far
2008-01-11 13:23 < Triona> I can probably think of a way to stop a swat team.
2008-01-11 13:23 < lc2> quanticle: are you from the american colonies btw?
2008-01-11 13:23 < Triona> but not with a rifle
2008-01-11 13:23 < quanticle> lc2: The colonists weren't fighting tanks and fighter jets
2008-01-11 13:23 < Scott5114> of course, if we had your system, there probably wouldn't be a speed limit, so one could argue we wouldn't need traffic cops
2008-01-11 13:23 < lc2> quanticle: the people in iraq are now
2008-01-11 13:24 < Triona> although, after the first team entered the door and collapsed from microwave radiation, they'd probably just be done with it and call in airstrikes
2008-01-11 13:25 < quanticle> lc2: And they're suffering casualties at a 10:1 rate, as compared to US. The reason they're able to continue is due to religious/political fanaticism...
2008-01-11 13:25 < lc2> quanticle: no, they're fighting the US because they're there
2008-01-11 13:25 < quanticle> lc2: So, unless you want to be ruled by religious fanatics, I'd suggest rethinking that well-armed populace thing
2008-01-11 13:25 < lc2> a lot of people don't like their countries invaded
2008-01-11 13:25 < White_Cat> lc2 not true
2008-01-11 13:26 < White_Cat> Iraqis explicitly stated "very good bombing mr. bush"
2008-01-11 13:26 < quanticle> lc2: Also, the Iraqis have and advantage because of home field. In America, both sides have home-field advantage
2008-01-11 13:26 < lc2> quanticle: i'm not actually talking about america specifically
2008-01-11 13:26 < White_Cat> america is a loaded term
2008-01-11 13:26 < gwern> quanticle: how about first enriching the populace and reducing the appeal of religion, and *then* arming them?
2008-01-11 13:27 < gwern> America - Fuck Yeah!
2008-01-11 13:27 < White_Cat> gwern no
2008-01-11 13:27 < lc2> quanticle: i'm referring to my preferred system of government, not instituting it in america
2008-01-11 13:27 < White_Cat> you cant do that
2008-01-11 13:27 < White_Cat> gwern that would require the draft
2008-01-11 13:27 < quanticle> lc2: Well, I'm just saying that no matter where you do this, you'll have to deal with an organized army that has the same home-field advantage as the populace
2008-01-11 13:27 < White_Cat> Iraq is a big country
2008-01-11 13:27 < gwern> sure you can. the long-term trends are clear: the wealther the populace the less religios it is
2008-01-11 13:27 < White_Cat> how about not blowing up every police station from the air?
2008-01-11 13:27 < lc2> quanticle: you'll also be talking about an army with far less funding than the american army currently has
2008-01-11 13:27 < White_Cat> gwern you lack the man power
2008-01-11 13:28 < quanticle> gwern: Well, if you get rid of religion though, you lose one *major* source of agression and rebellion
2008-01-11 13:28 < lc2> quanticle: there would be no standing army in my constitution
2008-01-11 13:28 < gwern> there are other nice trends - for any country with a per capita of greater than something like 7000USD, if it ever becomes democratic, it will remain democratic
2008-01-11 13:28 < lc2> quanticle: although maybe i'd have a nuclear missile command, just to make sure nobody fucks with us
2008-01-11 13:28 < White_Cat> lc2 fucking is good
2008-01-11 13:28 < White_Cat> better than doing it alone
2008-01-11 13:28 < lc2> quanticle: also, if you get rid of religion, you get rid of one of the very few things that constrains men as well
2008-01-11 13:28 < White_Cat> the more the merrier :)
2008-01-11 13:29 < quanticle> lc2: Right, but all this is pie-in-the-sky dreaming unless you have an inkling about *where* you'll implement this
2008-01-11 13:29 < bluefoxicy> Wikipedia is awesome
2008-01-11 13:29 * gwern groans. Bad jokes, lord how I love'em / bad jokes, can't get enough of'em...
2008-01-11 13:29 < lc2> and i don't mean that in a way that'd offend atheists here, most atheists are atheists precisely because they can live without religion
2008-01-11 13:29 < bluefoxicy> you can enter "talk dirty to me" into the article box and hit go and it'll give you an article
2008-01-11 13:29 < quanticle> lc2: Given that most places have standing armies, it'd be pretty difficult
2008-01-11 13:29 < White_Cat> lc2 I dont think you can offend the atheists
2008-01-11 13:29 < lc2> White_Cat: oh, that's much easier than you think, trust me
2008-01-11 13:30 < White_Cat> lc2 trust you?
2008-01-11 13:30 * lc2 trolls atheist channels every now and then
2008-01-11 13:30 < White_Cat> no thanks
2008-01-11 13:30 < gwern> sure you can - insult their intelligence and tell them atheism is a religion
2008-01-11 13:30 * lc2 is also damned good at it
2008-01-11 13:30 < Scott5114> they just get annoyed sometimes.
2008-01-11 13:30 < quanticle> gwern: That's a very interesting observation about democracy...
2008-01-11 13:30 < lc2> gwern: and respond to any counter-points with Bible verses
2008-01-11 13:30 < quanticle> lc2: I bow to your trollishness
2008-01-11 13:30 < gwern> lc2: nice
2008-01-11 13:31 < lc2> ;)
2008-01-11 13:32 < lc2> as it happens i think man is naturally theotropic in nature
2008-01-11 13:32 < quanticle> lc2: I like your idea about having no standing army, and having direct democracy by the citizens, but I'm pretty sure the Earth is full right now, as far as countries are concerned? Have you thought about implementing this on the Moon? Or perhaps Mars?
2008-01-11 13:32 < quanticle> Antarctica is still open too
2008-01-11 13:32 < lc2> it's why atheists so often are disproportionately represented in stupid ideologies
2008-01-11 13:32 < lc2> quanticle: nope
2008-01-11 13:33 * quanticle is uninterested in ideas about governance unless the person has a plan to implement
2008-01-11 13:33 < quanticle> lc2: What reason is that?
2008-01-11 13:33 < lc2> quanticle: man is theotropic, as i said
2008-01-11 13:34 < lc2> a burning desire to believe in *something* stupid
2008-01-11 13:35 < quanticle> lc2: Well you just have to wait a few thousand years and evolution will take care of that for you, assuming that religious influences continue to decline
2008-01-11 13:35 < lc2> quanticle: evolution is false
2008-01-11 13:35 < lc2> the second law of thermodynamics says that it can't happen
2008-01-11 13:35 < quanticle> lc2: Now you're just trolling.
2008-01-11 13:35 < lc2> quanticle: yes, yes i am ;)
2008-01-11 13:35 * Triona goes back to pondering how to make wikipedia work
2008-01-11 13:36 < quanticle> Triona: Its an impossible problem that will drive you mad if you think about it for too long
2008-01-11 13:36 < lc2> for the most part it seems to work as it is
2008-01-11 13:36 < Triona> Impossible... no
2008-01-11 13:36 < Triona> Hard... yes
2008-01-11 13:37 < lc2> or at least, works as well as a collaborative encyclopedia can
2008-01-11 13:37 < quanticle> Triona: That depends entirely on your definition of "work". For certain loose definitions, the problem may break down to hard, but I think it remains impossible in the general calse
2008-01-11 13:37 < quanticle> *case
2008-01-11 13:38 < lc2> i think wikipedia's core policies and guidelines are good, just not enforced
2008-01-11 13:38 < lc2> get rid of [[WP:AGF]] and start blocking people for breaking the rest
2008-01-11 13:39 < lc2> that's especially so for verifiability and citing sources
2008-01-11 13:41 < Triona> *looks up a random article* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoutsiri
2008-01-11 13:41 < lc2> as things stand, someone could edit pages thousands and thousands of times without once sourcing the material they added (true or not) and they wouldn't get anything but a few flames in return
2008-01-11 13:41 < lc2> if you started blocking people for that, then quality might start improving
2008-01-11 13:41 < Triona> AGF is a good policy
2008-01-11 13:41 < Triona> it's just taken to extreme
2008-01-11 13:42 < lc2> and disputes would simply be about reliability of sources, rather than over matters of fact
2008-01-11 13:42 < Triona> I don't think all our policies should have equal weight.
2008-01-11 13:42 < quanticle> Triona: My rule is, "Stop following AGF when the other person explicitly mentions AGF."
2008-01-11 13:42 < lc2> Triona: verifiability is the most important one as i see it
2008-01-11 13:43 < lc2> quanticle: i think a better rule is "assume good faith, but don't think good faith actually counts for shit"
2008-01-11 13:43 < Triona> WP:V and WP:RS are pretty damn important.
2008-01-11 13:43 < lc2> the real problem on wikipedia is good faith editors who don't give a shit about verifiability and sourcing
2008-01-11 13:43 < Triona> and it's probably worth it as far as the quality of editing to make it policy to revert any edit that compromises WP:V and WP:RS
2008-01-11 13:44 < lc2> Triona: i think it should go further, and block repeat offenders
2008-01-11 13:44 < quanticle> lc2: True. AGF is supposed to attract new people, but no one seems to understand that people appreciate comptence more than good attitude.
2008-01-11 13:44 < lc2> Triona: btw, i ended up on the 3RR noticeboard for that
2008-01-11 13:45 < lc2> quanticle: indeed
2008-01-11 13:45 < lc2> the road to hell is paved with what was that again?
2008-01-11 13:45 < Triona> Change WP:V and WP:RS to say that material that doesn't meet those tests must be removed rather than may be removed.
2008-01-11 13:45 < lc2> Triona: change both of them to say that people who add unsourced information more than X times will be blocked
2008-01-11 13:46 < lc2> and that's wikipedia's quality problem solved
2008-01-11 13:46 < quanticle> lc2: True. Now why doesn't anyone actually implement that?
2008-01-11 13:47 < Triona> because creating a community has overriden creating an encyclopedia?
2008-01-11 13:47 < lc2> quanticle: because you'll probably find that a majority of editors, even established ones, would be blocked
2008-01-11 13:47 < lc2> (that includes administrators)
2008-01-11 13:48 < Triona> The community is the means, not the end.
2008-01-11 13:48 < Triona> We're here to create an encyclopedia.
2008-01-11 13:48 < lc2> Triona: indeed
2008-01-11 13:49 < lc2> Triona: you know, i find that a lot of people who criticise wikipedia policy do so precisely because they don't want wikipedia to be an encyclopedia
2008-01-11 13:49 * quanticle wonders if anyone thinks that WP:Check your facts should be rewritten with better English
2008-01-11 13:49 < lc2> they want it to be a collection of information
2008-01-11 13:49 * Ceiling_Cat just created a new computer engineering article
2008-01-11 13:49 < Ceiling_Cat> [[Parallel slowdown]]
2008-01-11 13:50 < lc2> like that webcomic artist who told everyone to boycott the wikimedia fund raiser
2008-01-11 13:50 * quanticle huggles Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-11 13:50 < quanticle> lc2: Howard Tayler
2008-01-11 13:50 < lc2> quanticle: yeah, him
2008-01-11 13:50 < Ceiling_Cat> I wonder if I've hit 500 yet
2008-01-11 13:50 < White_Cat> 500?
2008-01-11 13:50 < lc2> the answer is simple: "we're an encyclopedia"
2008-01-11 13:50 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat its the 300
2008-01-11 13:50 < quanticle> lc2: What's the question?
2008-01-11 13:51 < lc2> response* then ;P
2008-01-11 13:51 < Ceiling_Cat> 479!
2008-01-11 13:51 < lc2> a certain ex-administrator who frequents here has the same problem
2008-01-11 13:51 < lc2> but we're an encyclopedia
2008-01-11 13:51 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - the number of articles I have started
2008-01-11 13:51 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-11 13:51 < White_Cat> can you give me a list
2008-01-11 13:51 < White_Cat> so I can blank them
2008-01-11 13:51 < Ceiling_Cat> yes
2008-01-11 13:51 < Ceiling_Cat> [[User:Raul654/bragsheet]]
2008-01-11 13:51 < lc2> i've started one
2008-01-11 13:51 < White_Cat> rationale: "NN cruft coming from Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-11 13:52 < White_Cat> ceil420 I am obviously kidding
2008-01-11 13:52 < quanticle> lc2: What was Tayler criticizing about Wikipedia again? I forget completely
2008-01-11 13:52 < White_Cat> does ceil420 ever talk?
2008-01-11 13:52 < quanticle> White_Cat: Who is ceil420?
2008-01-11 13:53 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - occasionally, although he unfortunately tends to get autocompleted comments directed at me rather often
2008-01-11 13:53 < lc2> quanticle: that we delete articles on non-notable webcomics that nobody cares about
2008-01-11 13:53 < White_Cat> yes
2008-01-11 13:53 < White_Cat> he should be forced to change nick
2008-01-11 13:53 < White_Cat> he could be 420ceil
2008-01-11 13:55 < quanticle> lc2: Oh yeah. Heh. I really don't know what to think about that. On one hand, I'm somewhat sympathetic, since there are a lot of good comics out there that are largely unnoticed, but, at the same time, I'm in agreement with you about Wikipedia's need to be an encyclopedia, rather than a collection of random facts
2008-01-11 13:55 < quanticle> lc2: I also don't understand why we have episode-by-episode summaries of TV shows on WP
2008-01-11 13:55 < lc2> quanticle: me neither
2008-01-11 13:56 < lc2> quanticle: that we're inconsistent about it is irrelevant
2008-01-11 13:57 < lc2> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikimedia_fundraiser_highlights_webcomic_community's_frustration_with_Wikipedia_guidelines
2008-01-11 13:57 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-11 13:57 < White_Cat> I edited that page btw
2008-01-11 13:57 < White_Cat> hope you dont mind
2008-01-11 13:57 < lc2> "There is concern among some webcomic groups that the notability guidelines are too rigorous for the typical webcomic."
2008-01-11 13:57 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - I know, but I reverted you because it made the page very ugly
2008-01-11 13:58 < White_Cat> well
2008-01-11 13:58 < Ceiling_Cat> I really don't care about how many articles I've written that start with the letter A or Q
2008-01-11 13:58 < White_Cat> you can have two lists
2008-01-11 13:58 < Ceiling_Cat> The only one I care about is the total
2008-01-11 13:58 < lc2> on that count, they're right
2008-01-11 13:58 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat A thought
2008-01-11 13:58 < Ceiling_Cat> and to count them, I just paste them into excel
2008-01-11 13:58 < lc2> the notability guidelines are also too rigorous for an article on every single person that has ever lived
2008-01-11 13:58 < White_Cat> excel?
2008-01-11 13:58 < White_Cat> you use excel?
2008-01-11 13:58 < White_Cat> OMG
2008-01-11 13:58 < Ceiling_Cat> yes
2008-01-11 13:58 < lc2> or for that matter, every single atom in the universe
2008-01-11 13:58 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat your geekness has just droped
2008-01-11 13:59 * White_Cat stripts Ceiling_Cat of its geek ranks
2008-01-11 13:59 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - I work in two computer engineering research labs
2008-01-11 13:59 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat yes
2008-01-11 13:59 < Ceiling_Cat> my geek quotient is infininty
2008-01-11 13:59 < White_Cat> computer engineers dont use excel
2008-01-11 13:59 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - actually, yes, they do
2008-01-11 13:59 < White_Cat> no they use some linux code they wrote
2008-01-11 13:59 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - pretty much all researchers crunch numbers in excel
2008-01-11 13:59 < quanticle> White_Cat: You're thinking of computer *scientists*
2008-01-11 13:59 * White_Cat waves paws in denial
2008-01-11 14:00 * White_Cat waves all 4s on the floor in denial
2008-01-11 14:00 * White_Cat is been escprted to the local sanatarium
2008-01-11 14:00 < lc2> quanticle: "''''Hydrogen atom #1.44444443135315801936801398601938093861 x 10^1598351359235''' is currently bound to another hydrogen atom and an oxygen atom in Lewis Collard's glass, though it is expected to migrate to his stomach very shortly. {{stub}}"
2008-01-11 14:00 * Reedy_Boy gets the telephone
2008-01-11 14:01 < quanticle> lc2: Heh. Though, funnily enough, I've never heard of 2/4 webcomics mentioned in the Wikinews article as being "notable"
2008-01-11 14:01 < quanticle> Fetus-X?
2008-01-11 14:02 < quanticle> Get Your War On?
2008-01-11 14:02 < Ceiling_Cat> Fetus - it's what's for dinner
2008-01-11 14:02 < lc2> quanticle: me neither
2008-01-11 14:02 * Ceiling_Cat ducks
2008-01-11 14:02 < lc2> i've only heard of penny arcade
2008-01-11 14:03 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - A is for the anger, of knowing you're knocked up
2008-01-11 14:03 < quanticle> lc2: Which is why I wonder if some of the notability stuff is, "I've never heard of this, so it must non-notable." Do you know what I mean...
2008-01-11 14:03 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - B is for the bad things that come from having kids
2008-01-11 14:03 < lc2> quanticle: *shrug*
2008-01-11 14:03 < Scott5114> I don't think our notability policy is stringent enough.
2008-01-11 14:03 < Scott5114> We have articles on random streets
2008-01-11 14:03 * White_Cat plays the endgame music at the end of freespace 2
2008-01-11 14:04 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-11 14:04 < quanticle> Scott5114: What should our notability criteria be, in your opinion?
2008-01-11 14:04 < White_Cat> you got the cds btw?
2008-01-11 14:04 < lc2> quanticle: you know, if an article's subject is notable, it should be easy for us to tell whether it is, i.e. reliable sources
2008-01-11 14:04 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - yes, but I did not burn them
2008-01-11 14:04 < lc2> quanticle: if someone created it without sourcing it then well, fuck them, that's their fault
2008-01-11 14:04 < White_Cat> cd burning?
2008-01-11 14:04 < White_Cat> like in a microwave?
2008-01-11 14:04 < lc2> and if nobody can *find* sources when it comes up for deletion, double fuck them
2008-01-11 14:05 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - no, burning like books
2008-01-11 14:05 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat nero can mount them
2008-01-11 14:05 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - does he use protection?
2008-01-11 14:05 < lc2> as i said, we need to be more stringent on people adding information without sources
2008-01-11 14:05 < quanticle> lc2: But how many reliable sources? Is one enough?
2008-01-11 14:05 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat cd images never have any protection
2008-01-11 14:06 < lc2> quanticle: *shrug*, that depends on the degree of coverage
2008-01-11 14:06 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - who said anything about CDs?
2008-01-11 14:06 < lc2> quanticle: multiple reliable sources is a good bet
2008-01-11 14:06 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat I did
2008-01-11 14:06 < Scott5114> quanticle: I'm not sure
2008-01-11 14:06 < quanticle> lc2: All I'm saying is that it wouldn't be that hard for a web comic to get coverage in some podunk newspaper, and then meet notability
2008-01-11 14:06 < Scott5114> It seems like "notability" has been coopeted by "has sources"
2008-01-11 14:07 < quanticle> Scott5114: That's exactly what lc2 is doing. Notability == has reliable sources
2008-01-11 14:07 < Ceiling_Cat> you know, that reminds me
2008-01-11 14:07 < Scott5114> I don't agree we should have an article on something just because someone covered it in a newspaper
2008-01-11 14:07 < Ceiling_Cat> [[book burning]]
2008-01-11 14:07 < Ceiling_Cat> that should be an FA
2008-01-11 14:07 < lc2> Scott5114: it depends on the extent of the coverage
2008-01-11 14:07 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat how about
2008-01-11 14:08 < White_Cat> Burn booking?
2008-01-11 14:08 < quanticle> lc2: But how do you quantify that? How do you even come up with a "rule of thumb"?
2008-01-11 14:08 < Scott5114> well, suppose someone does an article about some shops on, say Campbell Street in Springfield MO
2008-01-11 14:08 < lc2> quanticle: you can't quantify it, really
2008-01-11 14:08 < White_Cat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Censorship.png
2008-01-11 14:08 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - I don't think Booking will like that. He's very sensitive
2008-01-11 14:08 < White_Cat> that should be anti-femanism logo
2008-01-11 14:08 < Scott5114> Campbell St is just like every other street in the world
2008-01-11 14:08 < lc2> quanticle: but i don't think you can "quantify" notability, either, so that's okay
2008-01-11 14:08 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat I dont think this comedy act will work
2008-01-11 14:08 < White_Cat> the background music is terrible
2008-01-11 14:09 < Scott5114> but because someone wrote an article on it in the newspaper, that means it's okay to include in Wikipedia? Who decided that?
2008-01-11 14:09 < lc2> quanticle (and Scott5114 too): my point is though, there is no notability without sources
2008-01-11 14:09 < Scott5114> But is there notablity with sources?
2008-01-11 14:09 < lc2> not that sources necessarily mean reliability
2008-01-11 14:09 < lc2> hence
2008-01-11 14:09 < Scott5114> Sure, with no sources, it's not notable. Fine and dandy.
2008-01-11 14:10 < Scott5114> I don't agree that just because it *is* notable we should have sources.
2008-01-11 14:10 < Scott5114> or I mean
2008-01-11 14:10 < Talrias> who can let me into #wikipedia-en-admins?
2008-01-11 14:10 < lc2> i'm not sure i believe that, either
2008-01-11 14:10 < Scott5114> I don't agree that just because it *has* sources it's notable
2008-01-11 14:10 < debian-is-me> Hello
2008-01-11 14:10 < lc2> but, if you fail reliable sources, then you fail notability automatically, hence, if we want to avoid a lot of the arguments about notability we can simply start enforcing WP:V and WP:RS
2008-01-11 14:10 < Scott5114> Right
2008-01-11 14:10 < lc2> and i mean *enforcing*, as in blocking people who violate it
2008-01-11 14:10 < quanticle> lc2: So contributing without citing should be considered vandalism?
2008-01-11 14:11 < debian-is-me> lc2: My computer aborted downloading, DOH!
2008-01-11 14:11 < lc2> quanticle: yes
2008-01-11 14:11 < lc2> that would get rid of a lot of the "good faith" idiots on wikipedia as well, usually the same kind of people that create articles on non-notable subjects
2008-01-11 14:11 < bishonen> talrias, i thought you created en-admins. don'
2008-01-11 14:11 < bishonen> t you have rights there?
2008-01-11 14:11 < Scott5114> lc2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Windsor_Mill_Road
2008-01-11 14:12 < debian-is-me> I think people should write topics on every topic
2008-01-11 14:12 < Scott5114> lc2: Stuff like this shouldn't happen.
2008-01-11 14:12 < Talrias> bishonen, my nick dropped
2008-01-11 14:12 < bishonen> ah
2008-01-11 14:12 < Talrias> i haven't been on freenode in about 2 years
2008-01-11 14:12 < lc2> Scott5114: yeah, you're probably right
2008-01-11 14:13 < Scott5114> "Because it's old and sources cover that" makes it notable, apparently
2008-01-11 14:13 < debian-is-me> Hehe
2008-01-11 14:13 < debian-is-me> Should people use wikipedia as a blog?
2008-01-11 14:13 < Talrias> is Backstretch still Durin?
2008-01-11 14:13 < Scott5114> debian-is-me: No.
2008-01-11 14:13 < Scott5114> Never.
2008-01-11 14:13 < lc2> Scott5114: still, enforcing V and RS would also get rid of a ton of non-notable articles too
2008-01-11 14:13 < debian-is-me> Why not? It is facts
2008-01-11 14:13 < Scott5114> debian-is-me: see [[WP:USER]].
2008-01-11 14:13 < lc2> Scott5114: i'd also say that you should delete articles without any reliable sources
2008-01-11 14:14 < debian-is-me> ??
2008-01-11 14:14 < Scott5114> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:USER
2008-01-11 14:14 < Scott5114> lc2: Yes, that would help
2008-01-11 14:14 < Scott5114> but it still wouldn't get rid of articles on random streets
2008-01-11 14:15 < quanticle> Scott5114: Also part of the problem is Wikiprojects. In their zeal to cover a topic with thoroughness, a lot of notability rules get bent
2008-01-11 14:15 < lc2> Scott5114: it probably would, actually
2008-01-11 14:15 < Talrias> bishonen, so, can you sort me out?
2008-01-11 14:15 < debian-is-me> So I cannot write about my house? Neighboer? Car? Where is the limit
2008-01-11 14:15 < quanticle> Scott5114: Also, don't forget about teachers that assign students to make wikipedia pages
2008-01-11 14:15 < lc2> Scott5114: because a good number of them won't have sources, and few would care enough to find some
2008-01-11 14:16 < debian-is-me> quanticle: Norsk?
2008-01-11 14:16 < quanticle> lc2: However, the article that he linked to did have 3 sources
2008-01-11 14:16 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat you really sorry?
2008-01-11 14:16 < lc2> quanticle: it wouldn't get rid of *that* article
2008-01-11 14:16 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Norsk?
2008-01-11 14:16 < lc2> but enforcing those policies brutally, would be a very good start
2008-01-11 14:16 < Scott5114> quanticle: partially wikiprojects...the wikiproject I belong to generally agreed that random streets shouldn't have articles but there are one or two editors that went bananas and scrambled to keep them when they went to AfD.
2008-01-11 14:16 < quanticle> debian-is-me: What do ye mean
2008-01-11 14:16 < debian-is-me> Norwgian?
2008-01-11 14:17 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Nope. American by culture, Indian by birth
2008-01-11 14:17 < debian-is-me> ok
2008-01-11 14:17 < debian-is-me> So in amerika students is forced to write wikipedia articles?
2008-01-11 14:17 < lc2> Scott5114: but i've not argued that V and RS are enough by themselves (or maybe i have, and you've changed my mind, *shrug*)
2008-01-11 14:18 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Yeah.
2008-01-11 14:18 < lc2> Scott5114: i'm saying that V and RS are good policies to start enforcing with blocks
2008-01-11 14:18 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Book reviews and such
2008-01-11 14:18 < Scott5114> lc2: Right, like I said, it would help if we went through and deleted all {{unreferenced}} articles
2008-01-11 14:18 < Scott5114> but it's unlikely to happen
2008-01-11 14:18 < debian-is-me> Stupid teachers
2008-01-11 14:18 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Look at [[A Plague of Frogs]]
2008-01-11 14:18 < Triona> Let's start AFD'ind them
2008-01-11 14:18 < lc2> Scott5114: anything that's bigger than a stub, yes
2008-01-11 14:18 < Triona> or stubbing them
2008-01-11 14:19 < Triona> starting from the oldest
2008-01-11 14:19 < yamanbaiia> any OTRS volunteer over here?
2008-01-11 14:19 < debian-is-me> So if I have a lot of sources about my dog, I can write an article about him?
2008-01-11 14:19 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Ther worst part is, I wrote that article
2008-01-11 14:19 < Sonja> whatis brion's email?
2008-01-11 14:19 < Scott5114> debian-is-me: It looks like it.
2008-01-11 14:19 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Are they reliable, neutral sources
2008-01-11 14:19 < debian-is-me> How do you decide if it is neutral and reliabole?
2008-01-11 14:20 < Lycurgus> lc2: do you have an en WP account?
2008-01-11 14:20 < lc2> Lycurgus: /whois is your friend
2008-01-11 14:20 < quanticle> Scott5114: For an example about the wikipedia article as a class project, look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Plague_of_Frogs
2008-01-11 14:20 < Triona> in fact, I'll prod a few now
2008-01-11 14:21 < Scott5114> Well, I don't necessarily think that an article resulting from a class project is bad
2008-01-11 14:21 < Scott5114> as long as they don't try to WP:OWN it
2008-01-11 14:21 < quanticle> Scott5114: That one is. Heck, I should know, I wrote it.
2008-01-11 14:21 < lc2> Triona: yay
2008-01-11 14:22 < Scott5114> quanticle: Tagged with {{nofootnotes}}. :P
2008-01-11 14:22 < quanticle> Scott5114: Heh. However, I don't think that the book fundamentally meets notability criteria.
2008-01-11 14:22 < quanticle> The only reason I did that book was that it was one out of two offered
2008-01-11 14:24 < quanticle> And I don't even have the book anymore, so its going to be a bit difficult for me to go back and add sources
2008-01-11 14:24 < debian-is-me> This article needs sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia
2008-01-11 14:24 * Lycurgus has a sudden appreciation of Jimmy Wales.
2008-01-11 14:25 < lc2> debian-is-me: that article needs to stop failing
2008-01-11 14:26 < Scott5114> I'd rather see a class assignment to write articles than vandalize them
2008-01-11 14:26 < lc2> "Criticism" sections are fucking fail
2008-01-11 14:26 < debian-is-me> So I should delte it?
2008-01-11 14:26 < lc2> debian-is-me: yeah, take it to AFD
2008-01-11 14:26 < debian-is-me> AFD?
2008-01-11 14:26 < Scott5114> <sarcasm>
2008-01-11 14:26 < lc2> or just blank it
2008-01-11 14:26 < Scott5114> and it has sources
2008-01-11 14:26 < debian-is-me> Wikipedia has been accused of exhibiting systemic bias and inconsistency;[8] critics argue that Wikipedia's open nature and a lack of proper sources for much of the information makes it unreliable, ironic since that article is missing sources?
2008-01-11 14:27 < RobJ1981> hi
2008-01-11 14:27 < Scott5114> debian-is-me: that article has 125 sources.
2008-01-11 14:27 < debian-is-me> Doh
2008-01-11 14:27 < Scott5114> that [8] is a source
2008-01-11 14:27 < debian-is-me> Is references sources?
2008-01-11 14:27 < Scott5114> yeah
2008-01-11 14:27 < debian-is-me> Then I get it
2008-01-11 14:27 < Scott5114> references, sources, same thing basically
2008-01-11 14:28 < debian-is-me> But they arent neutral...
2008-01-11 14:28 * quanticle doesn't think that [[Wikipedia]] should exist
2008-01-11 14:31 < debian-is-me> How can I fabricate reliabole neutral sources?
2008-01-11 14:31 < quanticle> debian-is-me: A bad link to Time.com
2008-01-11 14:31 < debian-is-me> quanticle: Briliant
2008-01-11 14:31 < quanticle> Or a bad link to an otherwise reliable source. You just say that the article has moved or something
2008-01-11 14:32 < debian-is-me> yeah
2008-01-11 14:32 < quanticle> debian-is-me: I attended a journalism seminar on this very topic, in fact. It was called, "What's the half life of a hyperlink?"
2008-01-11 14:33 < debian-is-me> What about to this page: http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/
2008-01-11 14:34 < debian-is-me> Is it and emtpy search querys reliabole?
2008-01-11 14:35 < lc2> fake book references are good as well
2008-01-11 14:35 < lc2> since nobody will ever check those
2008-01-11 14:35 < quanticle> lc2: Heh yeah. After all, who will check?
2008-01-11 14:35 < lc2> find a book in which it *should* appear
2008-01-11 14:35 < lc2> don't just make up a book
2008-01-11 14:36 < quanticle> lc2: Well, that's actually more risky on Wikipedia than in class. On WP, there is a possibility that someone will eventually check. In class, you have one prof. dealing with 50 essays, each with 20 sources.
2008-01-11 14:36 < lc2> oh, true
2008-01-11 14:37 < quanticle> lc2: Also, on WP, the book's author might stop in and say, "Hmm, wait a sec, I never wrote that."
2008-01-11 14:37 < lc2> yeah, that's true as well
2008-01-11 14:37 < debian-is-me> lc2: A looong boo
2008-01-11 14:38 < debian-is-me> book*
2008-01-11 14:38 < quanticle> Heh, we might see a lot more of that sort of thing if we actually implement strict enforcement of reliable sources
2008-01-11 14:39 < debian-is-me> So I can write an article about the president of petoria?
2008-01-11 14:39 < cimon> "reliable" with regard to sources is like answering the question of how long is a piece of string...
2008-01-11 14:40 < debian-is-me> Doh
2008-01-11 14:40 < debian-is-me> Someone has already written about petoria
2008-01-11 14:41 < cimon> quanticle: with a reasonably "strict" construction of "reliable" for sources, you can get rid of the entire contents of wikipedia...
2008-01-11 14:41 < quanticle> cimon: I can answer that question...
2008-01-11 14:41 < cimon> quanticle: yes, but can you counter my point...
2008-01-11 14:41 < cimon> ?
2008-01-11 14:41 < quanticle> nope, sorry
2008-01-11 14:42 < cimon> We really need to not be strict, but be very lax.
2008-01-11 14:42 < debian-is-me> Because of the sources, wikipedia is only plagiating other stuff
2008-01-11 14:42 < debian-is-me> Nothing new
2008-01-11 14:42 < MUNCHLAX> I am debian
2008-01-11 14:42 < cimon> We have to draw the line somewhere, certainly.
2008-01-11 14:42 < debian-is-me> To make a completly new one, you would first have to make 5 webpages anbout it and link to it
2008-01-11 14:43 < cimon> but the line needs to be where it allows reasonable content ot be inside wikipedia.
2008-01-11 14:43 < quanticle> cimon: If we enforce reliable sources though, we'd get rid of quite a few notability controversies
2008-01-11 14:43 * Ceiling_Cat cuddles quanticle
2008-01-11 14:44 * quanticle huggles Ceiling_Cat
2008-01-11 14:44 < cimon> quanticle: ARE YOU SAYING, NEVER ACCEPT ANYTHING FROM WIKINEWS?
2008-01-11 14:44 < Mike_H> cimon: Watch this
2008-01-11 14:44 < Mike_H> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eidyrlSdKcE
2008-01-11 14:44 < cimon> oops
2008-01-11 14:44 < quanticle> Heh, caps-lock key got stuck?
2008-01-11 14:45 < cimon> Mike_H: as soon as youtube conforms to a standard my ubuntu does out of the box...
2008-01-11 14:45 < quanticle> cimon: Well, I guess I am...
2008-01-11 14:45 < Mike_H> cimon: Is that soon?
2008-01-11 14:45 < cimon> Mike_H: let me test your link...
2008-01-11 14:45 < quanticle> cimon: If you go to Youtube, Firefox will give you an option to download the flash-plugin
2008-01-11 14:46 < quanticle> cimon: Its really painless, unless you're refraining from Youtube for ideological reasons
2008-01-11 14:46 < debian-is-me> Someone using ubuntu, moahahahaha
2008-01-11 14:47 < cimon> quanticle: yess, I am waiting for it to do that...
2008-01-11 14:47 < cimon> debian-is-me: hey, I started on slackware...
2008-01-11 14:47 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Oh, don't even get me started. You debian folk and your "Iceweasels"
2008-01-11 14:47 < quanticle> cimon: Oddly enough, so did I
2008-01-11 14:48 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - Thank you for your suggestion. We'll discuss it, and get back to you in 5 years
2008-01-11 14:48 < cimon> 4.2 iirc
2008-01-11 14:48 < Ceiling_Cat> --Typical debian response
2008-01-11 14:48 < debian-is-me> I like Iceweasel
2008-01-11 14:48 < debian-is-me> Ubuntu is for noobs!
2008-01-11 14:48 < debian-is-me> If I can find a source for that I'll write it on wikipedia
2008-01-11 14:48 < quanticle> cimon: It was the only distro that I could get early NDISWrapper to work on
2008-01-11 14:48 < Ceiling_Cat> debian-is-me - I'm far from a linux newb, but I like Ubuntu because of its package manager
2008-01-11 14:48 < Ceiling_Cat> which blows away the comptetion
2008-01-11 14:49 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Well, not really anymore. Fedora's yum is catching up quickly
2008-01-11 14:49 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: I agree, though, that earlier .deb was waaay better
2008-01-11 14:49 < debian-is-me> apt-get?
2008-01-11 14:49 < Ceiling_Cat> I always remember Yum as very, very slow
2008-01-11 14:49 < debian-is-me> adept?
2008-01-11 14:49 < debian-is-me> .deb?
2008-01-11 14:49 < debian-is-me> Everyting is the same
2008-01-11 14:49 < Ceiling_Cat> debian-is-me - Synatic running on top of apt-get
2008-01-11 14:49 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: It's improved in the latest versions
2008-01-11 14:49 < Ceiling_Cat> Synaptic*
2008-01-11 14:50 < debian-is-me> I like debian, uses less ram.
2008-01-11 14:50 < quanticle> debian-is-me: Well, I don't know about debian, but Ubuntu puts config files for servers in odd locations
2008-01-11 14:50 < quanticle> That's why I switched to Fedora, btw
2008-01-11 14:50 < cimon> Ceiling_Cat: are you still chained to fedora?
2008-01-11 14:51 < Ceiling_Cat> cimon - at work, we use red hat
2008-01-11 14:51 < quanticle> cimon: Ceiling_Cat is running Ubuntu
2008-01-11 14:51 < debian-is-me> I know, I used 2 houres configuring X first time I installed
2008-01-11 14:51 < quanticle> debian-is-me: On fedora?
2008-01-11 14:51 < debian-is-me> Then I just deleted the file, and then it worked
2008-01-11 14:51 < debian-is-me> Debian
2008-01-11 14:51 < Ceiling_Cat> in my office, I have a fedora box (for Cell BE development) and an Ubuntu box (for everything else)
2008-01-11 14:51 < debian-is-me> The only distro I've used, except kubuntu/ubuntu
2008-01-11 14:51 < Ceiling_Cat> and at home, I have an ubuntu box and a windows box
2008-01-11 14:52 < Mike_H> cimon: Did it work?
2008-01-11 14:52 < Ceiling_Cat> so that's 6 machines: 2 windows, 2 fedora/red hat, and 2 ubuntu
2008-01-11 14:52 < Ceiling_Cat> oh, and my laptop runs windows (so 3 windows)
2008-01-11 14:52 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: That's quite the collection
2008-01-11 14:52 < Ceiling_Cat> teehee
2008-01-11 14:52 < debian-is-me> I only have 3 computers, one PS3, and a Wii
2008-01-11 14:53 < cimon> Mike_H: funnily enough, I got this bit of ladies swaying to a very silly laugh track...
2008-01-11 14:53 * quanticle has two machines
2008-01-11 14:53 < quanticle> and a wii
2008-01-11 14:53 < Ceiling_Cat> basically everywhere I go I need at least 2 machines, and I have 3 places to go
2008-01-11 14:53 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: Why 2?
2008-01-11 14:53 < Ceiling_Cat> at home and at work, I need a windows box and a linux box
2008-01-11 14:53 < cimon> Mike_H: and, no, I am not going to take the bait.
2008-01-11 14:54 < Mike_H> cimon: The bait? It's a French and Saunders parody of ABBA. Just watch the whole thing.
2008-01-11 14:54 < Ceiling_Cat> and in my office, I need a fedora box (for cell stuff) and an ubuntu box (because I really prefer doing linux work on ubuntu if I can help it)
2008-01-11 14:54 < cimon> Mike_H: just give it up, we are not amused.
2008-01-11 14:54 < Mike_H> cimon: Well, I am.
2008-01-11 14:54 < Ceiling_Cat> quanticle - does that answer your question?
2008-01-11 14:55 < cimon> Mike_H: nice for you.
2008-01-11 14:55 < quanticle> Ceiling_Cat: yeah. Answers it pretty thoroughly, in fact
2008-01-11 14:55 < Mike_H> Am I missing something? Are you really mad? And if so, why?
2008-01-11 14:55 < RobJ1981> Should TTN be reported the next time he blanks an article? He is revert warring, and blanking, and redirecting articles with no good reasoning behind it. There is mergers in place for some of the things, however he is redirecting while the merge discussion is still going on.
2008-01-11 14:55 * quanticle has a Windows box and a Linux box
2008-01-11 14:55 < RobJ1981> I havent checked, but there might even be some 3RRs in his recent edits.
2008-01-11 14:56 < quanticle> RobJ1981: Who, what, wher?
2008-01-11 14:56 < quanticle> *where?
2008-01-11 14:56 < Triona> Ceiling_Cat: virtualization
2008-01-11 14:57 < RobJ1981> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/TTN
2008-01-11 15:01 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - virtualization and dual booting are icky and unreliable
2008-01-11 15:01 < Ceiling_Cat> Adding another machine is a MUCH simpler solution
2008-01-11 15:02 < Krator> RobJ1981: join the vg channel
2008-01-11 15:02 < RobJ1981> What's the channel for vg?
2008-01-11 15:03 < ST47> I hate users.
2008-01-11 15:03 < ST47> Can we please just kill them
2008-01-11 15:05 * Cometstyles nods
2008-01-11 15:05 * Ceiling_Cat facehuggles Cometstyles
2008-01-11 15:05 < Cometstyles> RobJ1981, we have no channel for viagra yet :(
2008-01-11 15:05 < Ceiling_Cat> Got yer face!
2008-01-11 15:05 * Cometstyles facehuggles Ceiling_Cat :DDD
2008-01-11 15:06 < Cometstyles> got yers too :P
2008-01-11 15:06 * quanticle straps Ceiling_Cat to Cometstyles and sends both hurtling into the sun.
2008-01-11 15:07 < quanticle> Sorry, it was just becoming too much
2008-01-11 15:07 < Cometstyles> wheeee space ride \o/
2008-01-11 15:07 < Triona> Ceiling_Cat: virtualization is actually quite reliable now
2008-01-11 15:08 < quanticle> Triona: Virtualization is still slow
2008-01-11 15:08 < Triona> reliable enough to use in mission critical enviroments.
2008-01-11 15:08 < Triona> quanticle: not entirely true
2008-01-11 15:08 < Triona> virtualization has overhead, but it's not emulation
2008-01-11 15:08 < quanticle> Triona: True enough in any desktop setting
2008-01-11 15:11 < Triona> There's also a big push to virtualize servers, particularly windows servers... windows doesn't make moving between machines a simple process
2008-01-11 15:12 < Triona> sa virtualization makes disaster recovery simpler for those enviroments
2008-01-11 15:12 < Triona> even if it's only done to make the OS install hardware agnostic
2008-01-11 15:13 < Triona> in that respect, it's often more reliable
2008-01-11 15:14 < Triona> a windows install generally will fail unless it's booted on the same chipset & drive controllers, and often the same motherboard
2008-01-11 15:14 < debian-is-me> I have downloaded 14% of wikipedia
2008-01-11 15:14 < Triona> virtualization removes that failure mode
2008-01-11 15:14 < debian-is-me> Is wikipedia only 3.3GB?
2008-01-11 15:14 < placebo_effect> its just a lot of text files
2008-01-11 15:15 < debian-is-me> but the images`?
2008-01-11 15:15 < debian-is-me> I want images!
2008-01-11 15:15 < quanticle> Triona: I understand all that. However, for any desktop system, virtualization is still really slow, especially regarding 3-d graphics and the such, which is a major reason to boot Windows.
2008-01-11 15:16 < quanticle> Virtualization doesn't matter as much for Linux, but running Linux on Windows is slow and takes up a lot of RAM
2008-01-11 15:16 < quanticle> Which makes Windows more crash-prone
2008-01-11 15:16 < debian-is-me> http://localhost
2008-01-11 15:16 < debian-is-me> That is my wiki site
2008-01-11 15:16 < quanticle> Wrong window? :0
2008-01-11 15:17 < debian-is-me> Kinda
2008-01-11 15:17 < quanticle> debian-is-me: does the snapshot work?
2008-01-11 15:17 < debian-is-me> Not untill I have donwloaded the file