freenode #wikipedia

2008-01-11 10:34 < Triona> it's not a WP:CITE case, it's a WP:VANDAL case
2008-01-11 10:38 < Triona> There's no good faith to be found in an edit like -> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chewing_gum&diff=prev&oldid=183641654
2008-01-11 10:41 < pengo> Triona: have good faith.. he could be suffering from some mentally illness
2008-01-11 10:42 < pengo> -ly
2008-01-11 10:42 < Triona> I try to assume good faith... some edits can't possible support that assumption.
2008-01-11 10:48 < Drunken_Idiot> NotACow: sorry about earlier tab ed the wrong name
2008-01-11 10:54 < Drunken_Idiot> Hello Fabexplosive
2008-01-11 10:54 < Fabexplosive> hello
2008-01-11 10:54 < Fabexplosive> hey Drunken_Idiot
2008-01-11 10:55 < Drunken_Idiot> How are you ?
2008-01-11 10:55 < Fabexplosive> i'm very tired
2008-01-11 10:55 < Fabexplosive> today i using ethyl ether
2008-01-11 10:55 < Fabexplosive> for remove glue
2008-01-11 10:56 < Fabexplosive> and i've a headatche
2008-01-11 10:56 < Drunken_Idiot> Use tiger balm the red one for the headache
2008-01-11 10:56 * Fabexplosive have only white tiger balm
2008-01-11 10:57 * JohnReaves finally found [[Metal Machine Music]]
2008-01-11 10:57 < Drunken_Idiot> White is good for flu
2008-01-11 11:06 < Drunken_Idiot> Fabexplosive: Green tea is good for headache
2008-01-11 11:06 < Fabexplosive> k
2008-01-11 11:06 < Fabexplosive> Drunken_Idiot: but, how are you?
2008-01-11 11:06 < Drunken_Idiot> Bad
2008-01-11 11:06 < Fabexplosive> ah
2008-01-11 11:06 < Drunken_Idiot> Overstressed, schizophernia ...
2008-01-11 11:06 < Fabexplosive> :(
2008-01-11 11:08 < Drunken_Idiot> Hi Aqwis sorry about earlier.
2008-01-11 11:08 < Aqwis> wha?
2008-01-11 11:11 < Drunken_Idiot> :)
2008-01-11 11:12 < Pilotguy_aw> DEATH TO WIKIPEDIA
2008-01-11 11:13 < Drunken_Idiot> Pilotguy: Why ?
2008-01-11 11:13 < Zach_> :D
2008-01-11 11:13 < Lycurgus> THROW BABY OUT WITH TROLLWASSER
2008-01-11 11:14 < Lycurgus> WAIT COOK BABY FOR FINE DINING
2008-01-11 11:26 < uberpenguin> bleh... this thing is probably going to require multiple power transformers
2008-01-11 11:26 < uberpenguin> that's the downside to using tubes
2008-01-11 11:37 < White_Cat> Warpath
2008-01-11 11:37 < White_Cat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/CatWhite
2008-01-11 11:37 < White_Cat> WOw
2008-01-11 11:43 < Cometstyles> your sock :P
2008-01-11 11:44 < Drunken_Idiot> Hello White_Cat and Cometstyles
2008-01-11 11:44 < White_Cat> Cometstyles no not my sock
2008-01-11 11:44 < Pilotguy> Hello Drunken_Idiot
2008-01-11 11:45 < White_Cat> the fact that he has 3 edits
2008-01-11 11:45 < White_Cat> with moths apart
2008-01-11 11:45 < White_Cat> well
2008-01-11 11:45 < White_Cat> two of them are next to each other
2008-01-11 11:45 < Cometstyles> :P
2008-01-11 11:45 < White_Cat> Jimbo is coming to town 18 october
2008-01-11 11:45 < Drunken_Idiot> Pilotguy: How are you sir ?
2008-01-11 11:45 < Pilotguy> How can he have 3 edits and moths apart?
2008-01-11 11:45 < White_Cat> I wonder if I should arange a millitary oarade or an airshow
2008-01-11 11:45 * Pilotguy is fine
2008-01-11 11:46 < White_Cat> Pilotguy just click the link I gave
2008-01-11 11:46 * Pilotguy puts the moths back together
2008-01-11 11:46 < Drunken_Idiot> White_Cat: Do you want any old maps? Like 1940s .
2008-01-11 11:47 < White_Cat> why?
2008-01-11 11:47 < White_Cat> if you can scan them they may be commons compatible tho
2008-01-11 11:47 < Drunken_Idiot> White_Cat: On that there is no Kurdistan
2008-01-11 11:47 < White_Cat> well
2008-01-11 11:47 < White_Cat> Kurdistan hasnt made it to the maps yet :)
2008-01-11 11:47 < White_Cat> aside from fan driven ones :D
2008-01-11 11:48 < White_Cat> Drunken_Idiot sure
2008-01-11 11:48 < Drunken_Idiot> White_Cat: Oky, I don't have a scanner, but I have a very good camera.
2008-01-11 11:48 < White_Cat> Drunken_Idiot that may work but scanners exist for a reason :)
2008-01-11 11:49 < White_Cat> if you can get it scanned it may become featured
2008-01-11 11:49 < Drunken_Idiot> lol I have to find a scanner
2008-01-11 11:49 < Drunken_Idiot> My scanner blew up
2008-01-11 11:50 < White_Cat> scanners have that tendency
2008-01-11 11:51 < White_Cat> thats why I keep mine behind a 3 meter wall
2008-01-11 11:52 < Drunken_Idiot> White_Cat: It blew up because a whole bottle of Coca Cola fell on it.
2008-01-11 11:53 < White_Cat> thats why you should drink Pepsi
2008-01-11 11:53 < White_Cat> scanner friendly
2008-01-11 11:53 < Drunken_Idiot> Pepsi tastes bad.
2008-01-11 11:55 < Drunken_Idiot> White_Cat: I ll do my best to scan it .. they are my great gramps maps, military maps;
2008-01-11 11:55 < White_Cat> millitary
2008-01-11 11:55 < White_Cat> he drew them?
2008-01-11 11:55 < White_Cat> boy thats great
2008-01-11 11:56 < Drunken_Idiot> original yes, but its a print of it
2008-01-11 11:56 < White_Cat> no it makes the maps PD
2008-01-11 11:56 < Talrias> hello
2008-01-11 11:56 < Drunken_Idiot> the print which i have is dated 1938
2008-01-11 11:56 < White_Cat> 2008-1938 = 70
2008-01-11 11:56 < White_Cat> yay
2008-01-11 11:57 < Sfan00> It mean it's pdin 2009
2008-01-11 11:57 < Sfan00> not in 2008
2008-01-11 11:57 < White_Cat> no
2008-01-11 11:57 < White_Cat> but its us gov work
2008-01-11 11:57 < Sfan00> Well in which cases it's PD anyway :)
2008-01-11 11:57 < White_Cat> yes
2008-01-11 11:57 < Drunken_Idiot> yay
2008-01-11 11:57 < White_Cat> go Police Departments
2008-01-11 11:59 < Drunken_Idiot> hi Sfan00
2008-01-11 12:00 < thedj> LMAO
2008-01-11 12:00 < thedj> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_rollback/Vote#Is_this_Wikipedia.2C_or_the_Jerry_Springer_Show.3F
2008-01-11 12:00 < thedj> it's sooo bad, it really is funny
2008-01-11 12:04 * Freya kills White_Cat.
2008-01-11 12:04 * Drunken_Idiot heals and re-births White_Cat
2008-01-11 12:04 < White_Cat> Freya what?
2008-01-11 12:04 < White_Cat> birth?
2008-01-11 12:04 < White_Cat> I was cloned!
2008-01-11 12:06 * Ceiling_Cat waves
2008-01-11 12:06 < Ceiling_Cat> Afternoon folks
2008-01-11 12:06 < Ceiling_Cat> NotACow - *poke*
2008-01-11 12:06 * Drunken_Idiot pets Ceiling_Cat and brushes its hair.
2008-01-11 12:07 < Ceiling_Cat> :)
2008-01-11 12:07 < Drunken_Idiot> Good imagination ay ?
2008-01-11 12:08 < thedj> i feel some people are opposing the new vote, simply because Jimbo implied we should have one. Some people are really sick of Jimbo saying stuff while he no longer is an effective part of the en.wikipedia community
2008-01-11 12:08 < Ceiling_Cat> http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/11/ron-pauls-record-in-congress.html
2008-01-11 12:08 < Ceiling_Cat> That's a really interesting page
2008-01-11 12:09 < Scott5114> They can prise my rollback button from my cold dead fingers. >:)
2008-01-11 12:09 < thedj> Scott5114: :D
2008-01-11 12:09 < Ceiling_Cat> I knew Ron Paul was a nut but I didn't realize just how far from the right wing deep end he comes from
2008-01-11 12:09 < White_Cat> I added two more options
2008-01-11 12:09 < Ceiling_Cat> (and he's also a hypocrite)
2008-01-11 12:09 < White_Cat> Cometstyles why not reconsider it
2008-01-11 12:09 < thedj> i then to think people told me that there would be no drama when this started :D
2008-01-11 12:10 < thedj> and then...
2008-01-11 12:10 < Scott5114> I think even if we do kill the process the people who already have rollback should keep it.
2008-01-11 12:10 < Cometstyles> reconsider what ?
2008-01-11 12:10 < nazgjunk> Ceiling_Cat, not so much ultrarightwing as ultrafrickenliberal
2008-01-11 12:10 < Ceiling_Cat> nazgjunk - uh, swing and a miss
2008-01-11 12:10 < Ceiling_Cat> read that page
2008-01-11 12:10 < Ceiling_Cat> educate yourself
2008-01-11 12:10 < White_Cat> thedj check that page again
2008-01-11 12:11 < nazgjunk> Ceiling_Cat, I'll try not to take that as an insult.
2008-01-11 12:11 * Drunken_Idiot goes to bed
2008-01-11 12:11 < Ceiling_Cat> liberals do not want a flat income tax, or to pull out of the UN, or to get rid of the Fed, or to go back to the panama canal
2008-01-11 12:11 < Ceiling_Cat> and if you think so, then you are severely misinformed either about what liberals want or what Paul's record is
2008-01-11 12:11 < nazgjunk> mostly misinformed about ron paul, or more specifically lack of information
2008-01-11 12:12 < nazgjunk> but the bits i -have- heard mostly pointed towards retardedly liberal
2008-01-11 12:12 < thedj> White_Cat: hehe
2008-01-11 12:12 < nazgjunk> and he's still got some distinctively liberal items
2008-01-11 12:12 < nazgjunk> oh blah
2008-01-11 12:12 < Ceiling_Cat> nazgjunk - he happens to oppose the iraq war because it's been a disaster. Must be nice for republican primary voters to have at least one candidate to point out the bleedingly obvious
2008-01-11 12:13 < thedj> who will add "this is the problem ?"
2008-01-11 12:13 < nazgjunk> the dutch government maintains that progress is being made and that it's all for the better
2008-01-11 12:13 < nazgjunk> very amusing
2008-01-11 12:13 < nazgjunk> or was that afghanistan
2008-01-11 12:13 < nazgjunk> something >.<
2008-01-11 12:13 < Ceiling_Cat> nazgjunk - other than not wanting the government to wiretap us, and wanting to do away with guantanamo (which are not liberal or conservative positions so much as they are constitional versus facist positions)
2008-01-11 12:14 < Ceiling_Cat> Paul has no positions that could even concievably be called liberal
2008-01-11 12:14 < nazgjunk> Then I think I've got a different notion of the word "liberal"
2008-01-11 12:15 < nazgjunk> 'cause I do consider pulling out of UN and NATO liberal, as much as complete privatization of certain governmental things i can't quite remember
2008-01-11 12:15 * thedj ponders about making a new talkpage header with a gun pointed at the dove...... :D
2008-01-11 12:15 < nazgjunk> -- He wants to severely weaken Social Security:
2008-01-11 12:15 < nazgjunk> that too
2008-01-11 12:15 < nazgjunk> but eh
2008-01-11 12:15 < nazgjunk> pizza time
2008-01-11 12:15 < Ceiling_Cat> nazgjunk - if you think liberals (now, or at anytime ni the past) wanted to withdraw from the UN, or do away with social security
2008-01-11 12:15 < Ceiling_Cat> then you really are badly misinformed
2008-01-11 12:15 < Ceiling_Cat> Sorry but there's no other way to put it
2008-01-11 12:16 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: if you use the absurd american definition of "liberal"
2008-01-11 12:16 < lc2> which as far as i can tell means "hostile to anyone, anywhere doing something without the government making sure they're doing it properly"
2008-01-11 12:16 < Ceiling_Cat> conservatives (in the classic William F. Buckley/Barry Goldwater sense) wanted to pull out of the UN
2008-01-11 12:17 < Ceiling_Cat> Ron Paul is very much a Goldwater conservative, although he does hold some positions that can only be characterizd as hypocritical
2008-01-11 12:17 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: in many places outside of the US, there is a huge overlap between liberalism and conservativism
2008-01-11 12:17 < lc2> (in england in particular, they are largely one and the same)
2008-01-11 12:17 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat good
2008-01-11 12:17 < White_Cat> UN would function again
2008-01-11 12:17 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat - again? When has the UN ever functioned?
2008-01-11 12:18 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat briefly during founding
2008-01-11 12:18 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: afaik it's only in america that "liberal" means "social democrat"
2008-01-11 12:18 < lc2> but *shrug*
2008-01-11 12:18 < White_Cat> and when soviet union falled
2008-01-11 12:18 < White_Cat> just briefly
2008-01-11 12:18 < Ceiling_Cat> White_Cat the UN is a deeply flawed institution
2008-01-11 12:18 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat like ANB/I
2008-01-11 12:18 < Ceiling_Cat> ANB/I?
2008-01-11 12:18 < White_Cat> WP:ANB/I
2008-01-11 12:18 < Ceiling_Cat> Oh
2008-01-11 12:18 < Ceiling_Cat> Administraotrs noticeboard incidents
2008-01-11 12:18 < White_Cat> YES
2008-01-11 12:19 < White_Cat> world isnt a better place without the UN
2008-01-11 12:19 < nazgjunk> Ceiling_Cat, I use liberal as "people can do whatever the fuck they want"
2008-01-11 12:19 < nazgjunk> roughly.
2008-01-11 12:19 < Triona> Like wikipedia politics altogether...
2008-01-11 12:19 < nazgjunk> very roughly, i should say
2008-01-11 12:19 < White_Cat> nazgjunk aside from carry guns
2008-01-11 12:19 < nazgjunk> then pulling out of the UN makes plenty of sense
2008-01-11 12:19 < White_Cat> executions
2008-01-11 12:19 < White_Cat> nazgjunk really?
2008-01-11 12:20 < Pilotguy_aw> |
2008-01-11 12:20 < Pilotguy> | o |
2008-01-11 12:20 < Ceiling_Cat> nazgjunk - using your defintion, george w. bush is a liberal
2008-01-11 12:20 < Ceiling_Cat> apparently, your definition and reality do not match
2008-01-11 12:20 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: !
2008-01-11 12:20 < lc2> haha
2008-01-11 12:20 < White_Cat> Ceiling_Cat no
2008-01-11 12:20 < White_Cat> Ne-liberal
2008-01-11 12:20 < nazgjunk> White_Cat, yes, as the UN doesn't provide any positive freedom, it only restricts negative freedom
2008-01-11 12:20 < Triona> I'm far to the left by american political standards, but I support gun ownership
2008-01-11 12:20 < White_Cat> *Neo-liberal
2008-01-11 12:20 < lc2> White_Cat: wrong again
2008-01-11 12:20 < White_Cat> nazgjunk well
2008-01-11 12:20 < lc2> there is nothing liberal or conservative about W
2008-01-11 12:20 < White_Cat> UN is a restrictive organization
2008-01-11 12:21 * Pilotguy sets nazgjunk on fire
2008-01-11 12:21 < White_Cat> THAT is up for the local countries
2008-01-11 12:21 < Triona> I don't think the UN is ambitious enough... and it's crippled by it's member states politics.
2008-01-11 12:21 < White_Cat> every country grows on its own
2008-01-11 12:21 < White_Cat> Triona yes
2008-01-11 12:21 < White_Cat> UN is like ARBCOM
2008-01-11 12:21 < lc2> ideologically, he's far closer to fascism than he is to liberalism (of the american kind) or conservativism (of the english/american kind)
2008-01-11 12:21 < White_Cat> lc2 yes
2008-01-11 12:21 < Pilotguy> White_Cat- What, an agency that promotes more drama instead of stopping it?
2008-01-11 12:21 < White_Cat> but with nazgjunk's definition of liberal he is neo :P
2008-01-11 12:21 < White_Cat> Pilotguy yes
2008-01-11 12:22 < Pilotguy> White_Cat- An agency full of incompient members?
2008-01-11 12:22 < lc2> White_Cat: no, he isn't
2008-01-11 12:22 < White_Cat> lc2 I know that
2008-01-11 12:22 < lc2> White_Cat: not even by nazgjunk's definition
2008-01-11 12:22 < Triona> UN can't even agree on what constitutes fundamental human rights
2008-01-11 12:22 < White_Cat> Triona yes
2008-01-11 12:22 < nazgjunk> my definition of liberal doesn't tell who's neolib
2008-01-11 12:23 < nazgjunk> that makes no sense
2008-01-11 12:23 < Ceiling_Cat> anyway, getting back to the point at hand
2008-01-11 12:23 < lc2> Triona: that's okay, get any two people in a room who aren't libertarians and you will find the same thing
2008-01-11 12:23 < White_Cat> nazgjunk I know that too
2008-01-11 12:23 < White_Cat> I just had to call Bush a neo-liberal
2008-01-11 12:23 < Ceiling_Cat> Ron Paul is a right-wing reactionary in the goldwar sense
2008-01-11 12:23 < Ceiling_Cat> he wants to turn back the clock to the 1880s
2008-01-11 12:23 < Triona> I'm socialist libertarian... so...
2008-01-11 12:23 < Ceiling_Cat> goldwater*
2008-01-11 12:23 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: yeah, and liberals just want to turn the clock back to serfdom blah blah
2008-01-11 12:23 < Triona> my politics are as far away from "mainstream" as they get...
2008-01-11 12:24 * Pilotguy waves to Triona
2008-01-11 12:24 < lc2> see, i can do that
2008-01-11 12:24 < nazgjunk> oh blah
2008-01-11 12:24 < nazgjunk> i might as well be wrong
2008-01-11 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - no, I mean it literally
2008-01-11 12:24 < Pilotguy> How are things up there in the triange
2008-01-11 12:24 < nazgjunk> definitions were always my weak point in politicis
2008-01-11 12:24 < Triona> I'm back in eastern NC now.
2008-01-11 12:24 < nazgjunk> i tend to avoid words like that
2008-01-11 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> he wants to do away with functiona antitrust legislation from the 1890s
2008-01-11 12:24 < Pilotguy> triangle even
2008-01-11 12:24 < Pilotguy> Greenville?
2008-01-11 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> he wants to get rid of the fed (110s)
2008-01-11 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> (1910s)
2008-01-11 12:24 < nazgjunk> calling a whole political party "democrats" doesn't make a lot of sense as well
2008-01-11 12:24 < nazgjunk> but meh
2008-01-11 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> he wants to do away with floating currency (1940s)
2008-01-11 12:24 < Triona> Pilotguy: Havelock
2008-01-11 12:24 < Ceiling_Cat> he wants to bring back the bricker ammendment (1950s)
2008-01-11 12:25 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: liberals want socialised medicine (1930s germany)
2008-01-11 12:25 < Pilotguy> ooh
2008-01-11 12:25 < Pilotguy> ok
2008-01-11 12:25 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - actually, socialized medicine was germany in the 1880s
2008-01-11 12:25 < Ceiling_Cat> under otto von bismark
2008-01-11 12:25 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: liberals want the government to have a greater say in industry (1700s)
2008-01-11 12:25 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: LIBERALS HATE JESUS (jews, 1st century)
2008-01-11 12:25 < Ceiling_Cat> and yes, that would a very large step forward.
2008-01-11 12:25 < bumm13> Ceiling_Cat: an economy in modern times cannot abolish floating currency
2008-01-11 12:25 < White_Cat> lc2 liberals do hate jesus
2008-01-11 12:25 < Ceiling_Cat> that would not be turning back the clock, it would be catching up with the rest of the world
2008-01-11 12:25 < Triona> I'm for socialized medicine. I'm for individual rights. Companies aren't people though.
2008-01-11 12:26 < Ceiling_Cat> bumm13 - telll that to Ron paul
2008-01-11 12:26 < White_Cat> liberals = roman empire
2008-01-11 12:26 < bumm13> it just can't really be done without major problems
2008-01-11 12:26 < bumm13> yeah, well, he's not winning any elections ;)
2008-01-11 12:26 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: liberals are SINNERS (adam and eve, garden of eden)
2008-01-11 12:26 < Ceiling_Cat> bumm13 - but there are some people who actually like him
2008-01-11 12:26 < bumm13> yes
2008-01-11 12:26 < Ceiling_Cat> that's SCARY
2008-01-11 12:26 < bumm13> many things are scary :-)
2008-01-11 12:26 < White_Cat> hah
2008-01-11 12:26 < White_Cat> if adam and eve were running for presidency
2008-01-11 12:26 < Ceiling_Cat> I can only conclude that they are terribly misinformed
2008-01-11 12:26 < White_Cat> who do you think would win?
2008-01-11 12:27 < bumm13> partly
2008-01-11 12:27 < Pilotguy> White_Cat- You would.
2008-01-11 12:27 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: i can only conclude that you're terribly misinformed if you think anyone else would do a better job
2008-01-11 12:27 < White_Cat> I am not adam nor eve
2008-01-11 12:27 < Pilotguy> wahh
2008-01-11 12:27 < Pilotguy> cable's out in the dorms :'(
2008-01-11 12:27 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: unless you really like war, and even more fucking colossal government
2008-01-11 12:27 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - ANYONE would do a better job. He really is the worst of the bunch
2008-01-11 12:27 < bumm13> many peoples' opinions of such things aren't based on what makes sense, policy-wise
2008-01-11 12:27 < Ceiling_Cat> he's a nutcase
2008-01-11 12:27 < Pilotguy> Ceiling_Cat- Who, Jimbo?
2008-01-11 12:27 < bumm13> heh
2008-01-11 12:27 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: be thankful that you have at least one candidate of principle in your elections, i don't even bother voting now
2008-01-11 12:27 < Ceiling_Cat> Pilotguy - uh, no. Ron Paul
2008-01-11 12:27 < Pilotguy> oh.
2008-01-11 12:28 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - my first choice dropped out :(
2008-01-11 12:28 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: kucinich?
2008-01-11 12:28 < Ceiling_Cat> Chris Dodd
2008-01-11 12:28 < Ceiling_Cat> although I do like Kuchinich
2008-01-11 12:28 < Ceiling_Cat> Kucinich*
2008-01-11 12:28 < Triona> kucinich is closer to my politics
2008-01-11 12:28 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: fucking commie
2008-01-11 12:28 < lc2> Triona: u 2
2008-01-11 12:28 < Triona> out of who's left, edwards probably has my vote
2008-01-11 12:28 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - who, me or Kucinich?
2008-01-11 12:28 < thedj> White_Cat: if you are not adam, nor eve, are you perhaps the snake ?
2008-01-11 12:28 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: you ;P
2008-01-11 12:28 * Pilotguy tapes lc2's mouth shut
2008-01-11 12:29 * Ceiling_Cat puts a black hood over lc2's head and waterboards him liberally
2008-01-11 12:29 < White_Cat> thedj I am the recorder
2008-01-11 12:29 < bumm13> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080111/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/secure_driver_s_licenses
2008-01-11 12:29 * White_Cat is the angel watching
2008-01-11 12:29 < Triona> lc2: I'm libertarian socialist... that's not communist :P
2008-01-11 12:29 < White_Cat> err angle
2008-01-11 12:29 < Triona> similar.
2008-01-11 12:29 < bumm13> "WASHINGTON - Americans born after Dec. 1, 1964, will have to get more secure driver's licenses in the next six years under ambitious post-9/11 security rules to be unveiled Friday by federal officials."
2008-01-11 12:29 < bumm13> first step towards a really-intrusive version of a national ID card
2008-01-11 12:29 < thedj> what's a secure drivers license....
2008-01-11 12:30 < Pilotguy> thedj- snort.
2008-01-11 12:30 < Ceiling_Cat> anyway, of all the candidates running, the one with the craziest ideas is Ron Paul, but the one I personally despise the most is Mitt Romney
2008-01-11 12:30 < Pilotguy> thedj- There's no such thing
2008-01-11 12:30 < Sceptre> thedj: it's all encoded in SHA-512
2008-01-11 12:30 < Triona> lc2: I'm on the opposite end from communists as far as human rights go
2008-01-11 12:30 < Ceiling_Cat> I really detest him
2008-01-11 12:30 * thedj imagines a chain around you car giving you limited range....
2008-01-11 12:30 < Ceiling_Cat> He lies about *everything*
2008-01-11 12:30 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: i despise all the republican candidates
2008-01-11 12:30 < Ceiling_Cat> Even when he's caught lying, he still lies
2008-01-11 12:30 < lc2> except ron
2008-01-11 12:30 < lc2> RON PAUL FUCK YEAH
2008-01-11 12:30 < bumm13> Mitt Romney is detestable
2008-01-11 12:31 < Ceiling_Cat> I mean, not only has he done a 180 degree turn on every single position in the last 3 years
2008-01-11 12:31 < Pilotguy> WHITE_CAT FOR PRESIDENT
2008-01-11 12:31 < Ceiling_Cat> and he's trying to buy the election
2008-01-11 12:31 < Triona> come next time I renew my license, I may sue the state on religious grounds just to make a big hassle
2008-01-11 12:31 < Triona> saying that I believe that any type of numeric or machine readable identifer is a sign of the beast
2008-01-11 12:32 < Triona> etc
2008-01-11 12:32 < lc2> more secure driving licenses makes a lot of sense
2008-01-11 12:32 < Triona> No, they don't.
2008-01-11 12:32 < lc2> you know, because that stops people making bombs, or hijacking aircraft
2008-01-11 12:32 < lc2> or shooting people
2008-01-11 12:32 < Triona> Only thing that stops people from shooting people is shooting them first.
2008-01-11 12:32 < Pilotguy> Triona- Now did you hear they are mailing licenses from Raleigh now instead of us getting them at the DMV office?
2008-01-11 12:32 < lc2> Triona: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm
2008-01-11 12:33 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - or, you know, stopping them from getting a gun in the first place
2008-01-11 12:33 < Triona> lc2: yeah, I responded before I saw the rest.
2008-01-11 12:33 < Ceiling_Cat> aka, the obvious answer
2008-01-11 12:33 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: yeah, that'll stop them
2008-01-11 12:33 < Triona> Ceiling_Cat: will never be practical in the US.
2008-01-11 12:33 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: while you're at it, you should make hijacking illegal
2008-01-11 12:33 < Triona> Too many guns out there.
2008-01-11 12:33 < lc2> and owning high explosives illegal
2008-01-11 12:33 < lc2> o wait
2008-01-11 12:34 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - after world war II ,there were sure a lot of guns floating around europe
2008-01-11 12:34 < Ceiling_Cat> and yet somehow, they managed to create strict gun control laws
2008-01-11 12:34 < bumm13> it's the U.S. mindset that will never budge on the gun issue
2008-01-11 12:34 < Pilotguy> yay cable's back
2008-01-11 12:34 < Pilotguy> later
2008-01-11 12:34 < lc2> how about!
2008-01-11 12:34 < lc2> you make terrorism illegal!
2008-01-11 12:34 < lc2> because making something illegal will surely stop the bad guys from doing it
2008-01-11 12:34 < Triona> bumm13: no, we still have a long memory of the revolutionary war for one
2008-01-11 12:34 < lc2> lrn2realworld, kthx
2008-01-11 12:35 < bumm13> plus it's not really a singular "gun issue"
2008-01-11 12:35 < Triona> one of the first things any dictatoral government has to do is disarm the population
2008-01-11 12:35 < bumm13> but what ties it all together is simple....
2008-01-11 12:35 < Triona> so, it's seen as a safeguard against nondemocratic government
2008-01-11 12:35 < bumm13> guns and accessories are big business
2008-01-11 12:35 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - that's why in the US the second ammendment gives us the collective right to posses weapons
2008-01-11 12:35 < Ceiling_Cat> in the form of well regulated militias
2008-01-11 12:36 < lc2> hokay
2008-01-11 12:36 < bumm13> that's a major sticking point, now isn't it? :)
2008-01-11 12:36 < Ceiling_Cat> (aka, the national guard)
2008-01-11 12:36 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: haha
2008-01-11 12:36 < Ceiling_Cat> bumm13 - hopefully those moron conservatives on the surpeme court won't set us back by deciding otherwise
2008-01-11 12:36 < lc2> lrn2historicalcontextoftheconstitutionkthx
2008-01-11 12:36 < Ceiling_Cat> because my statement has been the prevailing understanding for a century
2008-01-11 12:36 < bumm13> the National Guard is powerless to oppose a tyrannical government that would theoretically give it orders
2008-01-11 12:37 < Ceiling_Cat> bumm13 - actually, the national guard is under the command of state governors
2008-01-11 12:37 < Triona> theroretically
2008-01-11 12:37 < Triona> not really
2008-01-11 12:37 < bumm13> (plenty of National Guard members are being sent to Iraq, for example)
2008-01-11 12:37 < Triona> not anymore
2008-01-11 12:37 < Triona> the states are able to command the national guard
2008-01-11 12:37 < Triona> but they take orders through the DoD too.
2008-01-11 12:37 < Ceiling_Cat> # The Montgomery Amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1987
2008-01-11 12:37 < Ceiling_Cat> provides that a governor cannot withhold consent with regard to active duty outside the United States because of any objection to the location, purpose, type, or schedule of such duty. This law was challenged and upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1990 (see case in FindLaw [2])
2008-01-11 12:38 < Ceiling_Cat> that's a problem
2008-01-11 12:38 < Ceiling_Cat> the SCOTUS got that one wrong
2008-01-11 12:38 < Triona> and the type of threat we're talking about is a gradual shift from democracy
2008-01-11 12:38 < Triona> and a gradual erosion of civil rights (that part's already happening)
2008-01-11 12:38 < lc2> they get everything wrong
2008-01-11 12:39 < lc2> they no longer rule according to law
2008-01-11 12:39 < Triona> I'm for a strict interpetation of the constitution.
2008-01-11 12:39 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - I agree that republicans have (with some help from the democrats) gradually eroded the democratic foundations of this country
2008-01-11 12:39 < Scott5114> Depose the supreme court and install our ArbCom instead. :P
2008-01-11 12:39 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: !
2008-01-11 12:39 < lc2> lawl
2008-01-11 12:39 < lc2> "some help"
2008-01-11 12:39 < lc2> haha
2008-01-11 12:40 < lc2> gtfo
2008-01-11 12:40 < bumm13> haha
2008-01-11 12:40 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - if you look at whose is actually voting for these things
2008-01-11 12:40 < Ceiling_Cat> (like the patriot act)
2008-01-11 12:40 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: i agree
2008-01-11 12:40 < Ceiling_Cat> it's usually 100% republican with some )but not all) democrats
2008-01-11 12:40 < lc2> the erosion of the constitution is not a recent thing
2008-01-11 12:40 < lc2> you can take that back to FDR, above all
2008-01-11 12:41 < Scott5114> I wonder what would happen if all the laws got thrown out every 5 years or so
2008-01-11 12:41 < Scott5114> so you were left with a bare Constitution and had to rewrite and repass everything
2008-01-11 12:41 < lc2> that would be awesome
2008-01-11 12:41 < Triona> I think those who don't uphold the constitution and are under oath to do so, should be guilty of treason.
2008-01-11 12:42 < Triona> and we need an amendment to that effect
2008-01-11 12:42 < Scott5114> they'd soon give up with those huge bills that are like a thousand pages because they'd take too long to pass and would be garbage in 5 years anyway
2008-01-11 12:42 < lc2> indeed
2008-01-11 12:42 < Triona> call it the "constitutional integrity ammendment"
2008-01-11 12:42 < Scott5114> and they'd concentrate on repassing laws on things like murder and so forth
2008-01-11 12:42 < Triona> include those who pass, enforce, or uphold a law later found to be unconstitutional.
2008-01-11 12:43 < Scott5114> and not have time left for declaring the official reptile of the United States and so on.
2008-01-11 12:43 < lc2> Triona: some laws have been ruled unconstitutional that never were
2008-01-11 12:43 < lc2> the judiciary is part of the problem too
2008-01-11 12:43 < Triona> as well as require the military to uphold the constitution by armed force if necessary, even against orders.
2008-01-11 12:43 < Triona> and train them to that effect
2008-01-11 12:43 < lc2> sodomy laws were never unconstutional
2008-01-11 12:43 < lc2> (stupid, but not unconstitutional)
2008-01-11 12:43 < Scott5114> maybe we should try that on WP. Delete the project namespace every so often.
2008-01-11 12:44 < lc2> [[Judicial activism]]
2008-01-11 12:44 < lc2> plox
2008-01-11 12:44 < Scott5114> or everything but the core and foundation policies
2008-01-11 12:44 < Triona> we need a better form of governance on enwiki anyway.
2008-01-11 12:44 < Triona> consensus turns into loudocracy
2008-01-11 12:45 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - be careful what you wish for\
2008-01-11 12:45 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat:
2008-01-11 12:45 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: i'd say just that for liberals
2008-01-11 12:45 < Scott5114> Wikipedia runs slightly better than most governments.
2008-01-11 12:45 < lc2> they wanted unrestricted government, now they have it in the "wrong" hands
2008-01-11 12:46 < Triona> don't get me wrong - I'm for open community process. But that process is destroyed by "loudest voice wins".
2008-01-11 12:46 < lc2> reaping what you sow etc
2008-01-11 12:46 < Triona> A constitutional rewrite is probably in order in the US. But I'd be afraid of what we'd come up with.
2008-01-11 12:47 < lc2> Triona: a monster ilke the EU constitution
2008-01-11 12:47 < Scott5114> Or the Oklahoma constitution.
2008-01-11 12:47 < lc2> it doesn't need re-writing, we need to execute the people who are trashing it
2008-01-11 12:47 < lc2> you need* (britfag here)
2008-01-11 12:47 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - that's interesting
2008-01-11 12:47 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: i usually am
2008-01-11 12:47 < Triona> 9/10ths of it needs to be what the government can't do :)
2008-01-11 12:47 < Scott5114> the way the OK constitution was written in the first place requires an amendment for just about everything
2008-01-11 12:48 < Ceiling_Cat> classicaly, liberals wanted to expand the scope of government to advance a social agenda
2008-01-11 12:48 < Scott5114> so it's got thousands of amendments
2008-01-11 12:48 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: the upshot was creating a government with unrestricted scope
2008-01-11 12:48 < bumm13> that's always a poor foundation for written constitutions
2008-01-11 12:48 < Ceiling_Cat> oh the other hand, now it's been used for clearly illegal ends
2008-01-11 12:48 < Ceiling_Cat> on*
2008-01-11 12:48 < Ceiling_Cat> which I don't think any classic liberal would support
2008-01-11 12:48 < lc2> you can never count on government to stay in the "right" hands
2008-01-11 12:49 < bumm13> Scott5114: Alabama requires amendments when *any* law is passed
2008-01-11 12:49 < Ceiling_Cat> (or any modern one, for that matter)
2008-01-11 12:49 < lc2> that is the conservative point, or one of the major ones
2008-01-11 12:49 < Ceiling_Cat> "conservative" in the goldwater sense, yes
2008-01-11 12:49 < lc2> modern republicans are not conservatives
2008-01-11 12:50 < Ceiling_Cat> no, they are intellectually bankrupt and beholden to corporate interests
2008-01-11 12:50 < lc2> correct
2008-01-11 12:50 < Triona> if I were to revise the US system of government, I'd probably not have created a strong executive.
2008-01-11 12:50 < Ceiling_Cat> as well as possessing a fascist streak
2008-01-11 12:50 < lc2> they are politics for the sake of politics
2008-01-11 12:50 < lc2> government for the sake of government
2008-01-11 12:51 < lc2> conservativism is dead in the US, save for a couple of holdouts
2008-01-11 12:51 < lc2> brb
2008-01-11 12:51 < Gracenotes> was the US execute that strong to begin with?
2008-01-11 12:51 < Ceiling_Cat> Arguably Ron Paul as a hold out, except (as I showed earlier) he's a hypocrite
2008-01-11 12:51 < Gracenotes> *executive
2008-01-11 12:51 < Triona> Gracenotes: pretty much
2008-01-11 12:51 < Ceiling_Cat> Gracenotes - NO
2008-01-11 12:52 < Ceiling_Cat> Washington was a very weak president
2008-01-11 12:52 < Triona> once the current constitution was passed
2008-01-11 12:52 < Gracenotes> FDR, Nixon, etc. coming along certainly strengthened the presidency
2008-01-11 12:52 < Scott5114> I think things are pretty bad when someone suggests passing a law requiring lawmakers to read bills before they vote on them.
2008-01-11 12:52 < Gracenotes> and I don't even want to imagine with George W. Bush is doing
2008-01-11 12:52 < Triona> we overcompensated from the articles of confederation
2008-01-11 12:52 < Ceiling_Cat> The presidency was a very weak instutitnon until Andrew Jackson
2008-01-11 12:52 < Ceiling_Cat> Gracenotes - NO!
2008-01-11 12:52 < Gracenotes> ...?
2008-01-11 12:52 < Ceiling_Cat> Nixon did more to WEAKEN the sintition of the presidency than anyone else
2008-01-11 12:52 < Triona> the articles of confederation were a practically powerless federal government
2008-01-11 12:52 < Gracenotes> hm. perhaps I'm thinking of someone else
2008-01-11 12:53 < Ceiling_Cat> in fact, Bush et al see themselves as trying to fix what Nixon broke
2008-01-11 12:53 < Triona> the states had to ok everything
2008-01-11 12:53 < Scott5114> The Articles of Confederation also didn't work.
2008-01-11 12:53 < Scott5114> can you imagine if each state had to fend for itself these days? Poor Alabama and Mississippi.
2008-01-11 12:53 < Ceiling_Cat> Gracenotes - Nixon made a huge power grab (if the president does it, it must be legal, he once said)
2008-01-11 12:53 < Ceiling_Cat> the backlash from that greatly weakened the instition
2008-01-11 12:53 < Ceiling_Cat> Bush is doing something similiar
2008-01-11 12:54 < Gracenotes> Ceiling_Cat: ah, and by the virtue of its failure backfired...
2008-01-11 12:54 < Ceiling_Cat> a huge power grab, followed by a great backlash
2008-01-11 12:54 < Triona> The president isn't accountable enough to the legislature
2008-01-11 12:54 < Gracenotes> meh. *sets mood to apathetic*
2008-01-11 12:54 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - under Bush, no, it is not. They have made more, more expanded claims of privilege than any previous administration
2008-01-11 12:54 < Triona> we have nothing short of impeachment to force compliance with legislative mandates
2008-01-11 12:54 < Scott5114> Triona: that can be a good thing.
2008-01-11 12:54 < Ceiling_Cat> what they need is a HUGE defeat in court to severely limit the use of executive prviilage, and their ability to ignore subpeoneas
2008-01-11 12:54 < Triona> and impeachment is sufficiently extreme that it doesn't happen
2008-01-11 12:55 < Scott5114> Ever read the story of [[Andrew Johnson]]?
2008-01-11 12:55 < Ceiling_Cat> The Bush administration is what impeachment was designed for
2008-01-11 12:55 < Gracenotes> King Andrew ^_^
2008-01-11 12:55 < Ceiling_Cat> he really is actively undermining the constition he swore to protect
2008-01-11 12:55 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: and every other president in recent times
2008-01-11 12:55 < gwern> he heh. Before XKCD, there were two hits for "died in a blogging accident". Now there are at least 12
2008-01-11 12:55 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - see, when you make statements like that, all the points you score with your insightful comment earlier are lost
2008-01-11 12:55 < Triona> that's one thing westminster parliments have over US government.
2008-01-11 12:55 < Ceiling_Cat> NO, OF COURSE not all modern presidents are like GWB
2008-01-11 12:56 < Triona> they can easily dismiss the executive
2008-01-11 12:56 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: not all, but they have all deserved impeachment
2008-01-11 12:56 < lc2> or at least a good beating
2008-01-11 12:56 < Scott5114> Triona: again, that's not necessarily good. In the case of Andrew Johnson, he would have been removed from office for vetoing unconstitutional legislation.
2008-01-11 12:56 < gwern> what did the original George Bush do to deserve a beating?
2008-01-11 12:56 < Gracenotes> gwern: 10 people died from blogging accidents in the past 12 hours -- an extraordinary rate
2008-01-11 12:56 < Scott5114> Checks and balances and what not.
2008-01-11 12:56 < Gracenotes> must be the capes
2008-01-11 12:57 < gwern> his presidency didn't seem too bad to me
2008-01-11 12:57 < Ceiling_Cat> gwern - he pardoned Caspier Weinburger
2008-01-11 12:57 < lc2> gwern: being born, it went downhill from there
2008-01-11 12:57 < Ceiling_Cat> he'll rot in hell for that
2008-01-11 12:57 < Triona> Scott5114: westminister governments have another failsafe though
2008-01-11 12:57 < Ceiling_Cat> as well as all of the reagan era crooks
2008-01-11 12:57 < gwern> Gracenotes: yeah. they get caught in things
2008-01-11 12:57 * gwern goes to look for that
2008-01-11 12:57 < Scott5114> yeah, the prime minister can dissolve the government, right?
2008-01-11 12:57 < Scott5114> or something like that?
2008-01-11 12:57 < Triona> correct... the big reset button
2008-01-11 12:57 < Triona> forcing new elections
2008-01-11 12:57 < gwern> Ceiling_Cat: please, every president pardons associated crooks
2008-01-11 12:58 < gwern> we have no [[Caspier Weinburger]]...?
2008-01-11 12:58 < Triona> and of course, ending their own power too
2008-01-11 12:58 < Ceiling_Cat> Gwern - [[Caspar Weinberger]]
2008-01-11 12:58 < Triona> well, potentially
2008-01-11 12:58 < lc2> gwern: being the head of the CIA at any point in recent history should be enough for a war crimes conviction
2008-01-11 12:58 < gwern> Ceiling_Cat: sp harder!
2008-01-11 12:58 < Scott5114> So in the case of Johnson, what would have happened had we had a parliamentary government?
2008-01-11 12:58 < Ceiling_Cat> Following his resignation as Secretary of Defense, Weinberger was placed under indictment by Independent Counsel Lawrence E. Walsh. The formal indictment charged Weinberger with several felony counts of lying to the Iran-Contra independent counsel during its investigation. Weinberger received a Presidential pardon from President George H.W. Bush on December 24, 1992, after Bush had failed to win a second term.
2008-01-11 12:58 < Triona> Scott5114: they would have had a vote of no confidence.
2008-01-11 12:58 < lc2> #gwern: *in office* he wasn't so bad, but *shrug*, he wouldn't have been electable if there was any justice in the world
2008-01-11 12:58 < lc2> -#
2008-01-11 12:59 < Triona> Scott5114: johnson would have had two options - step down, or call new elections for everybody.
2008-01-11 12:59 < Ceiling_Cat> Gwern - not all of them are as egregious as that particular pardon
2008-01-11 12:59 < Ceiling_Cat> It would be like Bush when he pardons Scooter Libby
2008-01-11 12:59 < Scott5114> He probably would have done the latter. He had a temper.
2008-01-11 12:59 < Gracenotes> I wonder if anyone will pardon Roman Polanski. Doubt it.
2008-01-11 12:59 < Ceiling_Cat> (which I'm giving 10-1 odds will happen a few weeks before he leaves office)
2008-01-11 12:59 < Gracenotes> too much outrage from grassroots groups
2008-01-11 12:59 < Scott5114> As it was, he was saved by removal from office by a single vote
2008-01-11 13:00 < Scott5114> *saved from
2008-01-11 13:00 < Ceiling_Cat> here's the thing -- A lot of republicans harken back to the days of Reagan
2008-01-11 13:00 < Triona> Scott5114: in which case, new elections, and probably enough new faces in congress to keep the same thing from happening again
2008-01-11 13:00 < Ceiling_Cat> but with Bush, they got the ultimate Reagan republican
2008-01-11 13:00 < Ceiling_Cat> he cuts taxes for the wealthy, while massively increasing spending
2008-01-11 13:00 < gwern> Ceiling_Cat: I wouldn't give it 10-1, but on the other hand, I'm not sure who else he'd want to pardon
2008-01-11 13:01 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: the tax cuts are one of very few things i'll give him credit for
2008-01-11 13:01 < Triona> Scott5114: although, also note that in westminister systems, the monarch's reserve power is also part of that check on the system
2008-01-11 13:01 < Triona> which, we couldn't necessarily have here
2008-01-11 13:01 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: as for reagan, he was conservative only in rhetoric
2008-01-11 13:01 < gwern> at that point, gwb could do anything he wanted without fear. the american public has made it clear that they consider GWB not a reflection of the republicans
2008-01-11 13:01 < Ceiling_Cat> he believes (in reagan's immortal words) that the government isn't the solution, it's the problem, so he does his best to undermine it. Hence, FEMA didn't work during Katrina, the FDA lets all these bad drugs onto the market
2008-01-11 13:01 < Gracenotes> Ceiling_Cat: credit? The money that the rich save they're pouring into other countries, not back here.
2008-01-11 13:01 < Ceiling_Cat> ...the FTC lets all of these dangerous products be imported from China.
2008-01-11 13:01 < gwern> starve the beast.
2008-01-11 13:01 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: no, that's the whole problem, he considers the government as a solution to a lot of things
2008-01-11 13:01 < Scott5114> well, considering this was during Reconstruction, there's no telling how it could have turned out
2008-01-11 13:02 < lc2> that's why spending has increased on nearly everything
2008-01-11 13:02 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - my grandchildren are going to be paying for those tax cuts
2008-01-11 13:02 < gwern> the government as a solution to abortion :)
2008-01-11 13:02 < Ceiling_Cat> plus 50 years interest
2008-01-11 13:02 < Ceiling_Cat> and you think that was a good idea?
2008-01-11 13:02 < gwern> Ceiling_Cat: or they won't be
2008-01-11 13:02 < gwern> the US would not be the first sovereign entity to default
2008-01-11 13:02 < Ceiling_Cat> gwern - either the debts get paid off or the US defaults on its obligations
2008-01-11 13:02 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: the problem is increased government, not increased taxation
2008-01-11 13:02 < Ceiling_Cat> neither is a very pretty sounding picture
2008-01-11 13:02 < Triona> Repeal the interstate commerece clause of the constitution
2008-01-11 13:02 < Triona> :)
2008-01-11 13:02 < gwern> hey, we have an article - [[Starve the beast]]
2008-01-11 13:03 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: reduce spending to 2000 levels and you can get rid of the individual income tax entirely
2008-01-11 13:03 < Gracenotes> good day, WaveOfMutilation
2008-01-11 13:03 < Triona> 99% of our federal government goes away by that
2008-01-11 13:03 < Ceiling_Cat> lc2 - the problem is increased government AND the massive decrease in taxes paid by wealthy people over the last 30 years
2008-01-11 13:03 < Xspeed> hello everyone
2008-01-11 13:03 < Xspeed> from Russia
2008-01-11 13:03 < Ceiling_Cat> how much do you think Bill Gates pays in taxes?
2008-01-11 13:03 < Gracenotes> hi, Xspeed. How are you?
2008-01-11 13:03 < Ceiling_Cat> (as a portion of his wealth)
2008-01-11 13:03 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: i don't know, don't care either
2008-01-11 13:04 < Triona> Individual income tax is a joke, and a ridiculous burden of paperwork.
2008-01-11 13:04 < Xspeed> Gracenotes, thx, fine, u? )
2008-01-11 13:04 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: i'd rather look for ways in which to reduce government, rather than increase taxes
2008-01-11 13:04 < Triona> National sales tax.
2008-01-11 13:04 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - NO!
2008-01-11 13:04 < gwern> Ceiling_Cat: pretty little, I'd guess, as his holdings in stock wouldn't be taxed?
2008-01-11 13:04 < Gracenotes> Xspeed: all right
2008-01-11 13:04 < Ceiling_Cat> A sales tax is regressive - it hurts poor people FAR more than it hurts rich ones
2008-01-11 13:04 < gwern> and he gives a lot to charity anyway...
2008-01-11 13:04 < Ceiling_Cat> it's the exact opposite of what I am saying the problem is
2008-01-11 13:04 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: indeed
2008-01-11 13:05 < gwern> which is why the flat taxers usually half-heartedly mention the reverse income tax to offset the regressive effects
2008-01-11 13:05 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: that'd give a good incentive for people not to vote for more taxation, but other than that, it's a bad thing
2008-01-11 13:05 < Triona> Ceiling_Cat: poorer people consume less, therefore, they are less effected
2008-01-11 13:05 < Triona> it's fair
2008-01-11 13:05 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - "poorer people consume less" - false
2008-01-11 13:06 < lc2> Ceiling_Cat: rly?
2008-01-11 13:06 < Ceiling_Cat> Triona - You can do two things with your money it -- spend it or invest it. Guess which one poor people tend to do
2008-01-11 13:06 < lc2> that's why i see poor people driving round in brand new porsches amirite
2008-01-11 13:06 < Ceiling_Cat> guess which one rich people tend to do
2008-01-11 13:06 < Triona> ok. have investment taxes too.
2008-01-11 13:06 < Gracenotes> lc2: no, only second-hand porsches