freenode #wikipedia

2008-01-01 19:48 < uberpenguin> I don't even think the low-end canons have an ISO auto option
2008-01-01 19:49 < IceKarma> uberpenguin, I like my Canon fine, but it's a Rebel 2000, not a digital. ;)
2008-01-01 19:49 < Lubaf> Constanbul is Istanitople / Been a long time gone, Constanble...
2008-01-01 19:49 < uberpenguin> IceKarma: my last SLR was a film rebel
2008-01-01 19:49 < uberpenguin> I was mostly referring to the digital interfaces
2008-01-01 19:49 < uberpenguin> Nikons are better, IMO
2008-01-01 19:49 < Vox_Humana_8> <IceKarma> why are you still using film? It's so expensive to buy and develop!
2008-01-01 19:50 < NotASpy> Vox_Humana_8: there's still the option of clubbing together and sharing lenses and stuff, even if you want to use both cameras at the same time, it could save on buying two sets of lenses.
2008-01-01 19:50 < uberpenguin> film is better on quality... that's about all it has left going for it
2008-01-01 19:50 < uberpenguin> a lot of the big film manufacturers are dropping out
2008-01-01 19:50 < Vox_Humana_8> uberpenguin - how is film better? A really good high-end DSLR is surely better than film?
2008-01-01 19:50 < IceKarma> uberpenguin, Fujifilm going bye-bye will probably be what pushes me to digital.
2008-01-01 19:51 < IceKarma> Vox_Humana_8, not in the least
2008-01-01 19:51 < uberpenguin> nope
2008-01-01 19:51 < IceKarma> Vox_Humana_8, I can take pictures on 50 ASA slide film and blow them up to the size of a _building_
2008-01-01 19:51 < Vox_Humana_8> Really? How is film better?
2008-01-01 19:51 < IceKarma> Vox_Humana_8, and you still won't see grain/pixels
2008-01-01 19:51 < Vox_Humana_8> Even film pixellates eventually
2008-01-01 19:51 < Vox_Humana_8> You should see how my Boots film developments come in
2008-01-01 19:51 < uberpenguin> I've heard estimates for the "equivalent megapixels" of a 35 mm frame range anywhere from 20 to 50 megapixels
2008-01-01 19:51 < Vox_Humana_8> 1280x960 res
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> They're real grainy
2008-01-01 19:52 < uberpenguin> film doesn't pixelate, my boy, you just reach a chemical limit
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> Reducing em to 1024x768 cures it, though
2008-01-01 19:52 < shimgray> Vox_Humana_8: If you throw equal amounts of money at it, you'll get better results on film
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> Hmm
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> I spose
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> Mind you
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> I'm just a teenage amateur
2008-01-01 19:52 < shimgray> this may not hold in twenty years time, of course, but...
2008-01-01 19:52 < IceKarma> uberpenguin, any guess what speed that was supposed to be equivalent?
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> I can't afford a really expensive
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> *really expensive camera
2008-01-01 19:52 < Lubaf> Even old Newark / Was once New Jerseydam / Why they changed it I can't say / People just liked it better that way...
2008-01-01 19:52 < Vox_Humana_8> Nor special film
2008-01-01 19:52 < IceKarma> shimgray, oh, if you have deep pockets, you can get 40+ MP cameras
2008-01-01 19:53 < Aqwis2> Hasselblad :>
2008-01-01 19:53 < uberpenguin> IceKarma: nope... I never cared all that much; I use digital because I don't typically blow photos up to building-size, and it's a hell of a lot more convenient
2008-01-01 19:53 < shimgray> for the consumer, mind you, digital knocks film into a cocked hat - no running costs!
2008-01-01 19:53 < NotASpy> have we mentioned Hasselblad cameras yet ?
2008-01-01 19:53 < Vox_Humana_8> My dad used to work for BAe and they did their professional shots with Hasselblad plate cameras, which were superb
2008-01-01 19:53 < Aqwis2> ;<
2008-01-01 19:53 < uberpenguin> the pros I know do mostly digital these days too; they mostly only use film for landscape photography
2008-01-01 19:54 < NotASpy> that's what NASA sent Armstrong and Aldrin onto the Moon with, a pair of Hasselblad's.
2008-01-01 19:54 < Aqwis2> but they weren't digital back then
2008-01-01 19:55 < Alkivar> well hasselblad still makes great fucking cameras
2008-01-01 19:55 < uberpenguin> I'd like to see more cameras adoping sensors which don't use bayer filtering
2008-01-01 19:55 < Alkivar> they're just super crazy pricey
2008-01-01 19:55 < uberpenguin> the results I've seen from the Foveon sensor cameras are outstanding
2008-01-01 19:55 < shimgray> Aqwis2: There was some very early digital work going on that that stage, but not really handheld level :-)
2008-01-01 19:55 < Aqwis2> mm
2008-01-01 19:55 < shimgray> (and CCDs were still a good way off)
2008-01-01 19:55 < Alkivar> hasselblad has a 38 megapixel large format digital back too!
2008-01-01 19:55 < IceKarma> uberpenguin, I note that I almost went medium format when I bought my last camera. =)
2008-01-01 19:55 < uberpenguin> heh, those are cool cameras
2008-01-01 19:56 < Alkivar> Ice: whats the real benefit for going medium format over a high end digital slr?
2008-01-01 19:56 < quanticle> Vox_Humana_8: Film is theoretically better, but digital has faster turnaround time. Also, given the declining price of storage, digital cameras allow you to take a lot more pictures than film
2008-01-01 19:56 < Aqwis2> large format digitals are insane
2008-01-01 19:56 < Aqwis2> ly expensive
2008-01-01 19:56 < shimgray> uberpenguin: One of these days, I'd like to see a study of when professionals made the digital switch. You're going to get a really interesting graph out of it.
2008-01-01 19:57 < uberpenguin> cameras are tools... you use the right tool for the job, and where convenience is more important than generation-spanning quality, it's going to be digital
2008-01-01 19:57 < quanticle> shimgray: I'd imagine that professionals made the switch before the rest of us. The quick turnarounds of digital and the higher capacity are pretty compelling reasons to switch...
2008-01-01 19:57 < IceKarma> Alkivar, unless you're talking about the 39 MP Hasselblad back, even high-end digital SLRs at 10 or so MP hasn't got a patch on _35 mm_ film
2008-01-01 19:57 < Aqwis2> define "professional"
2008-01-01 19:57 < uberpenguin> heh, one of the projects I'm working on is developing an ultraviolet imaging sensor :)
2008-01-01 19:58 < Aqwis2> journalists probably switched early, but
2008-01-01 19:58 < uberpenguin> super-super sensitive, though
2008-01-01 19:58 < NotACow> DEATH TO POOT
2008-01-01 19:58 < Aqwis2> idd
2008-01-01 19:58 < TheWeasel> I quite like poot.
2008-01-01 19:58 < TheWeasel> Whatever it is.
2008-01-01 20:00 < quanticle> Aqwis2: Also a lot of wedding and portrait photographers switched early too for digital's faster turnaround times.
2008-01-01 20:00 < quanticle> Aqwis2: Its a lot easier to sell portraits if you allow the subjects to preview
2008-01-01 20:00 < Aqwis2> probably
2008-01-01 20:00 < Aqwis2> their customers don't need huge prints
2008-01-01 20:00 < IceKarma> 8x10" is a stretch
2008-01-01 20:00 < IceKarma> 36x24" is right out
2008-01-01 20:01 * TheWeasel has a vision of a marriage photo hanging poster-size over a bed
2008-01-01 20:01 < Aqwis2> =/
2008-01-01 20:01 < TheWeasel> "eight by ten colored glossy photographs with circles and arrows on each one..."
2008-01-01 20:01 < quanticle> TheWeasel: You'd really have to love your bride for that one...
2008-01-01 20:01 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Where's that quote from?
2008-01-01 20:02 < TheWeasel> Must be a rather recent marriage
2008-01-01 20:02 < TheWeasel> Arlo Guthrie - Alice's Restaurant
2008-01-01 20:02 < NotASpy> http://www.flickr.com/photos/notaspy/2155885333/ - that's a recent photo from the Pentax K10D, if anybody is interested.
2008-01-01 20:04 < quanticle> NotASpy: Its quite nice. How'd you get the wispy effects? Is that fog, or moisture on the lens?
2008-01-01 20:04 < NotASpy> rain and spray from the sea.
2008-01-01 20:05 < Messedrocker> rain and spray and not a cow
2008-01-01 20:05 < shimgray> of which you get plenty in Arbroath
2008-01-01 20:05 < NotASpy> oh yeah.
2008-01-01 20:06 < shimgray> TheWeasel: I keep working bits of Alice's Restaurant into conversational phrases at work. None of them ever bat an eyelid. It always worries me a little.
2008-01-01 20:06 < NotASpy> it was also stupidly windy, which doesn't help with the focus either.
2008-01-01 20:07 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-01-01 20:07 < Doc_glasgow> Arbroath? Years since I've been ther
2008-01-01 20:07 < NotASpy> camera and tripod came close to blowing over on a couple of occassions.
2008-01-01 20:08 < NotASpy> Doc_glasgow: you're not missing anything exciting.
2008-01-01 20:08 < Doc_glasgow> NotA I like your harvest photos - I got some super ones in Fife in October
2008-01-01 20:09 < Doc_glasgow> That's as far north as I get on the east coast
2008-01-01 20:09 < Doc_glasgow> maybe Dundee
2008-01-01 20:09 < stephenjudkins> hey, i've found a wikipedia article that is very clearly plagiarized from another source. what should i do? to whom should i report this?
2008-01-01 20:09 < Doc_glasgow> normally Anstruther
2008-01-01 20:10 < NotASpy> Anstruther, Pittenweem, St Monans (Monance) and Crail, they're really photogenic, must get down there some time.
2008-01-01 20:10 < Doc_glasgow> stephenjudkins: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:COPYVIO
2008-01-01 20:11 < shimgray> The long-exposure waterfall ones are pretty neat
2008-01-01 20:11 < NotASpy> if I could get a nice still day, I'd get some longer ones with the new camera. 1 second was all the old Canon would do.
2008-01-01 20:11 < stephenjudkins> Doc_glasgow: thank you!
2008-01-01 20:11 < Doc_glasgow> NotASpy: you saw my article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anstruther_Fish_Bar
2008-01-01 20:12 < Doc_glasgow> np
2008-01-01 20:12 < NotASpy> yeah, though I don't know if there's many people in Anstruther that call it the Anstruther Fish Bar.
2008-01-01 20:12 < Doc_glasgow> NotASpy: well that's what the sources call it
2008-01-01 20:13 < Doc_glasgow> but you can put the local name in if you can source it
2008-01-01 20:14 < NotASpy> it's a nickname now, it used to be owned by an Italian family before the Smiths took it over.
2008-01-01 20:14 < Doc_glasgow> yeah, I read that somewhere
2008-01-01 20:15 * Mike_H loves lazy days with Top Model marathons
2008-01-01 20:15 < The359> Law & Order marathons own you
2008-01-01 20:16 < quanticle> The359: I haven't watched broadcast TV in a long time...
2008-01-01 20:17 < quanticle> The359: I just don't see much to interest me these days
2008-01-01 20:17 < NotACow> people watch broadcast tv?
2008-01-01 20:17 < NotASpy> the Smiths, they were probably the top Fife fishing dynasty, just brilliant at fishing (back in the days when it was an art, no radars, fish finders or anything like that) - I don't think any of their kids wanted to go to sea with the boat, quite sad. Fine fishing boat they had too.
2008-01-01 20:18 < Cyrius> [[The Smiths]]? =)
2008-01-01 20:18 < quanticle> NotACow: Shockingly yes. And, from what I hear, there is actually good content on broadcast TV.
2008-01-01 20:18 * TheWeasel hates Morrissey
2008-01-01 20:18 < TheWeasel> Damn, you beat me to it.
2008-01-01 20:18 < quanticle> NotACow: Or rather, there was, before the writer's strike
2008-01-01 20:18 < NotACow> quanticle: hm. actually im ight watch broadcast sometimes.....
2008-01-01 20:18 < Mike_H> NotACow: I watch my Top Model marathons on YouTube
2008-01-01 20:18 < NotACow> quanticle: i've been a tivo user for 8 years now, i have no idea what channel things are on
2008-01-01 20:18 < Mike_H> I think I've only watched two cycles of Top Model live as it played out on the TV
2008-01-01 20:18 < NotASpy> lol no, one of the family was so damn good as catching fish, he was awarded the OBE for services to the fishing industry.
2008-01-01 20:19 < NotACow> NotASpy: hehe
2008-01-01 20:19 < quanticle> NotACow: I've heard good things about serials, like Heroes, or Lost. The nice thing is that, these days you can go onto CBS or NBC's website to catch up on previous episodes...
2008-01-01 20:21 < Doc_glasgow> NotASpy: Fishing industry? We still have one?....when you say family, you mean ancient ancestor, like from the 1800s?
2008-01-01 20:22 < Doc_glasgow> I thought we sold our fishing fleet to Span in the 1980s
2008-01-01 20:22 < NotASpy> no, late 70's to early 80's was when David Smith got his OBE.
2008-01-01 20:22 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: I'm pretty sure that Atlantic fishing died with the collapse of cod fisheries...
2008-01-01 20:22 < MessedRawker> David Smith was an OB/GYN?
2008-01-01 20:22 < Crimedog> Span" Never heard of that country :)
2008-01-01 20:23 < Aqwis2> David G. Smith born 1959?
2008-01-01 20:23 < Doc_glasgow> [[Order of the British Empire]]
2008-01-01 20:23 < quanticle> MessedRawker: No. OBE == Order of British Empire.
2008-01-01 20:23 < Aqwis2> nevermind
2008-01-01 20:23 < MessedRawker> oh, i know that
2008-01-01 20:23 < quanticle> MessedRawker: Its like Knighthood, but not as cool
2008-01-01 20:23 < MessedRawker> i was being a facetious joke
2008-01-01 20:23 < MessedRawker> excuse me, jerk
2008-01-01 20:23 < Doc_glasgow> We have a fishing fleet int he days when we had an empire as well
2008-01-01 20:23 < Doc_glasgow> infact, we used to have 13 nice little colonies
2008-01-01 20:24 < Doc_glasgow> I wonder what happened to them
2008-01-01 20:24 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: Yeah. It was a damn successful fleet too. Too successful for its own good
2008-01-01 20:24 < shimgray> to be fair, we got rid of those before we got the Empire, all things told
2008-01-01 20:24 < MessedRawker> Doc_glasgow, you refused to grant us representation, so we committed numerous acts of treason
2008-01-01 20:24 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: Well, you know, there was that matter of tea and taxes
2008-01-01 20:24 < shimgray> pfft, it's not like you even *drink* tea
2008-01-01 20:25 < Crimedog> Which is why some think us yanks drink mostly coffee
2008-01-01 20:25 < Doc_glasgow> Yes, and they could never pronounce things, so we were better off without them
2008-01-01 20:25 < quanticle> shimgray: We don't drink tea because of the revolution
2008-01-01 20:25 < Doc_glasgow> Tried to teach them this damn language, but they never really got the hang of it
2008-01-01 20:25 < Mahlzahn_> Luna: which option in Special:Preferences enables editing only Section 0?
2008-01-01 20:25 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: Don't forget our word use
2008-01-01 20:25 < Mahlzahn_> erm Luna-San I mean.
2008-01-01 20:25 < Crimedog> Coffee has more caffein anyway but we miss out on all the theobromine
2008-01-01 20:26 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: flat == apartment, lift == elevator, etc...
2008-01-01 20:26 < Doc_glasgow> I mean what was wrong with our tea
2008-01-01 20:26 < Doc_glasgow> ??
2008-01-01 20:26 < NotASpy> the fishing industry thing is quite funny, the fishermen certainly killed the industry by themselves, but they didn't do it the way you would think.
2008-01-01 20:26 < quanticle> Crimedog: teobromine?
2008-01-01 20:26 < Doc_glasgow> I mean what was wrong with our tea??? We paid good opium to the Chinese for that stuff?
2008-01-01 20:26 < quanticle> NotASpy: Fishing is a classic "tragedy of the commons" industry
2008-01-01 20:27 < Crimedog> and we keep our spare tires in "trunks" not "boots"
2008-01-01 20:27 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: There's nothing wrong with your tea. As I recall from my history class the main issue was with your prices.
2008-01-01 20:27 < Mahlzahn_> Doc_glasgow: nothing ... as long as you get it from India and Sri Lanka.
2008-01-01 20:27 < Doc_glasgow> We didn't
2008-01-01 20:27 < Mahlzahn_> the stuff from the Scots highlands sucks. :)
2008-01-01 20:27 < Crimedog> and dont forget we dont pay taxes to Big Brother to watch TV
2008-01-01 20:28 < Doc_glasgow> In the early 18th century our tea came from China - we got the opium from India to trade with the Chinese for tea and then taxed the yanks to import it
2008-01-01 20:28 < quanticle> Crimedog: I never understood how that worked?
2008-01-01 20:28 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: Are you British? Can you explain the TV-tax?
2008-01-01 20:28 < Doc_glasgow> basically we ran a drug ring with bells on
2008-01-01 20:28 < Mahlzahn_> Doc: I'm having you on of course. With a name like Doc_glasgow I mean. :)
2008-01-01 20:29 < Doc_glasgow> TV tax?
2008-01-01 20:29 < Crimedog> [[Tv_tax]]
2008-01-01 20:29 < shimgray> License fee, he means
2008-01-01 20:29 < Doc_glasgow> Oh you mean TV licence?
2008-01-01 20:29 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: Yeah, that
2008-01-01 20:29 < Doc_glasgow> Basically we have to pay a fee to own a TV - and the fee means we get to watch things other than US trash
2008-01-01 20:29 < Mahlzahn_> and I was referring to the uisge-beatha, the good stuff.
2008-01-01 20:30 < Doc_glasgow> The fee pays for the BBC
2008-01-01 20:30 < Crimedog> And it means we yanks have to watch Torchwood with comercials
2008-01-01 20:30 < shimgray> Pays for us to send *you* the BBC, too, so haud yer whining
2008-01-01 20:30 < Doc_glasgow> your choice
2008-01-01 20:30 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: But how is the fee enforced?
2008-01-01 20:30 < Xihix> Question:
2008-01-01 20:31 < Doc_glasgow> quanticle: detector vans
2008-01-01 20:31 < shimgray> *snort*
2008-01-01 20:31 < Xihix> Is it considered vote rigging if you support an article in the FAC that is part of a Wikiproject you are part of?
2008-01-01 20:31 < shimgray> in practice, it's enforced Because That's What You Do
2008-01-01 20:31 < Mahlzahn_> Doc: that doesn't work any more you know.
2008-01-01 20:31 < Doc_glasgow> it is a civil offence to operate an unliencenced YV
2008-01-01 20:31 < Mahlzahn_> yes, shimgray is right. Civil duty.
2008-01-01 20:31 < shimgray> you enforce it same way as any other tax; you prosecute people you catch not paying
2008-01-01 20:32 < Doc_glasgow> you don't have to pay it
2008-01-01 20:32 < quanticle> shimgray: Heh. Ok. I thought they were going to go big-brother on you and have yearly inspections for unlicensed TVs or something like that
2008-01-01 20:32 < Doc_glasgow> you can not have a TV
2008-01-01 20:32 < Mahlzahn_> I have no TV.
2008-01-01 20:32 < Aqwis2> they do that in Norway, quanticle, but you can decide to not let the inspectors into your house
2008-01-01 20:32 < NotASpy> then you get all those people who listen to Radio 3 boasting about how they don't pay for their radio.
2008-01-01 20:32 < Aqwis2> so it's pretty pointless
2008-01-01 20:32 < Mahlzahn_> I have Wikipedia. Enough DRAMA.
2008-01-01 20:33 < shimgray> Aqwis2: It is possible for someone to get a warrant to search your house for an unlicensed TV. This takes so long that you'd have to be pretty incompetent not to have moved the TV or bought a license by the time they do
2008-01-01 20:33 < quanticle> Aqwis2: Maybe I'm just libertarian, but I find the thought of people coming into my house and checking for unlicensed televisions to be just a bit creepy and odd
2008-01-01 20:33 < Aqwis2> quanticle, idd
2008-01-01 20:33 < Crimedog> and now of days TVs arent always TVs
2008-01-01 20:33 < Doc_glasgow> quanticle: and we find the idea of adverts cutting into Dr Who to be "just a bit creepy and odd"
2008-01-01 20:34 < Xihix> OH MY GOD
2008-01-01 20:34 < NotASpy> I used to chat with someone from Telly Licencing on the old BBC Messageboard, apparently one 1 in 10 of their detector vans actually has any equipment in them, they just send the other vans out to put the wind up people. Works too, apparently.
2008-01-01 20:34 < Xihix> Raul doesn't archive FAC's anymore?
2008-01-01 20:34 < TheWeasel> here they just threaten to hack your fingers off if you don't pay for the items they assume you've got
2008-01-01 20:34 < Mahlzahn_> Crimedog: yes, thats why internet-*capable* PCs are taxed in Germany now.
2008-01-01 20:34 < quanticle> Doc_glasgow: Heh. Different strokes for different folks, I guess
2008-01-01 20:34 < Crimedog> I wonder. If I were to visit London with a laptop with a TV card in it, would customs make me buy a license?
2008-01-01 20:34 < shimgray> No.
2008-01-01 20:34 < Doc_glasgow> Crimedog: no, there are exemptions for students and tourists and stuff
2008-01-01 20:35 < NotASpy> the police would have you shot for being a terrorist long before you reach customs.
2008-01-01 20:35 < shimgray> If you started making a great fuss about it, they might tell you to just to shut you up, though :-)
2008-01-01 20:36 < shimgray> (I know the kind who would...)
2008-01-01 20:36 < TheWeasel> terrorism means "really bad things"
2008-01-01 20:36 < quanticle> shimgray: Are in the London area?
2008-01-01 20:36 < Mahlzahn_> NotASpy: the detector vans don't work very well in the day of ubiquitous mobile phones.
2008-01-01 20:36 < TheWeasel> including license fee-dodging
2008-01-01 20:37 < shimgray> quanticle: By a suitably broad definition...
2008-01-01 20:37 < Xihix> Why doesn't Raul archive FAC's anymore?
2008-01-01 20:37 < Crimedog> If the American Revolution were to happen today. It would include the "Boston TV Party"
2008-01-01 20:37 < Aqwis2> perhaps he's dead?
2008-01-01 20:37 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Terrorism means "anything we look down on"
2008-01-01 20:37 < Aqwis2> ;|
2008-01-01 20:37 < Mahlzahn_> NotASpy: and microwave ovens / garage doors / baby alarms etc throw them off too.
2008-01-01 20:37 < Xihix> But... it's WHITE_CAT man...
2008-01-01 20:37 < Xihix> he can't be dead... I love that guy.
2008-01-01 20:38 < White_Cat> ?
2008-01-01 20:38 < quanticle> shimgray: How broad? Do I have to include Scotland or Wales?
2008-01-01 20:38 < shimgray> :-P
2008-01-01 20:38 < TheWeasel> in the German version of the war against terror, means that are meant to react to the heightened danger also can be used on fraud, for instance
2008-01-01 20:38 < shimgray> Oxford
2008-01-01 20:38 < Aqwis2> hmm
2008-01-01 20:38 < White_Cat> there are rumors that I am dead?
2008-01-01 20:38 < White_Cat> They are false
2008-01-01 20:38 < TheWeasel> the danger of which has risen marginally, if any
2008-01-01 20:38 < Aqwis2> why aren't normal admins trusted to promote FAs?
2008-01-01 20:38 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Same in the American version. The FBI, by its own admission, has used National Security Letters in non-terrorism related cases
2008-01-01 20:38 < White_Cat> I cant be dead as I was not alive to begin with
2008-01-01 20:39 < Mahlzahn_> Schroedinger's cat?
2008-01-01 20:39 * Mahlzahn_ nuzzles the singularity
2008-01-01 20:39 < Xihix> White_Cat
2008-01-01 20:39 < TheWeasel> *that* to me is scandalous
2008-01-01 20:39 < Xihix> Why don't you archive FAC's anymore?
2008-01-01 20:39 < TheWeasel> not blowjobs between consenting adults
2008-01-01 20:40 < TheWeasel> anyway, time for bed
2008-01-01 20:40 < quanticle> TheWeasel: You have an issue with that too?
2008-01-01 20:41 < TheWeasel> eh, with saying "we're in heightened danger from terrorism" then sharpening the tools in other directions where the danger hasn't risen at all, yes I do
2008-01-01 20:41 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-01-01 20:41 < TheWeasel> with few other things, really
2008-01-01 20:41 < quanticle> TheWeasel: I guess Europe isn't as different from America as it seems
2008-01-01 20:41 < TheWeasel> not at all
2008-01-01 20:42 < TheWeasel> except that we spend less money :-)
2008-01-01 20:42 < quanticle> TheWeasel: As governments or as individuals? Does Europe have a positive savings rate?
2008-01-01 20:43 < NotASpy> ah, you Yanks have been good at getting it your own way with this Terrorism law stuff. Take the NatWest 3 for instance. They worked in London and the only people affected by their little plot was their Edinburgh, Scotland based employer, the Royal Bank of Scotland. So what does America do, extradite them, fuck them over big style all because they used Enron stock to rip off the Royal Bank.
2008-01-01 20:43 * FastLizard4 bursts into the channel even though he technically joined the channel about an hour ago
2008-01-01 20:43 < TheWeasel> people don't typically own houses here, at least not in towns and cities.
2008-01-01 20:44 < White_Cat> Xihix archive FACs?
2008-01-01 20:44 < TheWeasel> that's a big part.
2008-01-01 20:44 < White_Cat> I never done that
2008-01-01 20:44 < TheWeasel> I guess national healthcare swallows much though, so I'm not sure
2008-01-01 20:44 < shimgray> NotASpy: On the other hand, they got convicted! If we'd left it to the wonders of the SFO, they'd have got to court in 2012 and then the prosecution wouldn't have turned up
2008-01-01 20:45 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Right, but that affects government spending. I'm asking if the individual savings rate in the EU is positive. In America its not...
2008-01-01 20:46 < TheWeasel> people are definitely more conservative about spending here than there
2008-01-01 20:46 < TheWeasel> I'm not sure whether we break even
2008-01-01 20:46 < NotASpy> shimgray: sounds about right for the SFO.
2008-01-01 20:46 < quanticle> TheWeasel: I suspect you do, probably because of cheaper healthcare and education
2008-01-01 20:46 < White_Cat> Xihix are you confusing me with Raul?
2008-01-01 20:47 < White_Cat> he is the ceiling_cat
2008-01-01 20:47 * FastLizard4 realizes there are too many "Cat" nicknames
2008-01-01 20:47 < TheWeasel> quanticle: Which is bought by higher premiums of course
2008-01-01 20:47 < TheWeasel> and taxes
2008-01-01 20:47 < White_Cat> I had a cat nickname for about 3 years
2008-01-01 20:47 < White_Cat> they are all copycats
2008-01-01 20:47 < NotASpy> I know one guy who was alleged to have bribed his biggest customer - 1 trial and 2 further re-trials they put the guy through, before the case collapsed.
2008-01-01 20:47 < TheWeasel> but that doesn't affect it I guess
2008-01-01 20:47 < White_Cat> I am the original
2008-01-01 20:47 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Higher premiums? I thought health-care was taken care of by taxes alone...
2008-01-01 20:48 < TheWeasel> well, it's a distinct insurance pot
2008-01-01 20:48 < Luna-San> Mahlzahn: There should be a "Gadgets" tab, it was recently added. Far right? Options may vary a bit, depending on your particular skin.
2008-01-01 20:48 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Its subsidized insurance rather than the government paying outright?
2008-01-01 20:49 < TheWeasel> Well, "the government" isn't directly involved
2008-01-01 20:49 < NotASpy> Michael Jackson is missing...
2008-01-01 20:49 < TheWeasel> it's kind of an institutionalized insurance
2008-01-01 20:50 < TheWeasel> which runs pretty independently
2008-01-01 20:50 < TheWeasel> it's not a government office
2008-01-01 20:50 < shimgray> a single national health insurance scheme, basically
2008-01-01 20:50 < TheWeasel> but insurance there is mandatory unless you have private insurance
2008-01-01 20:50 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Is it totally independent, or does the government appoint the board?
2008-01-01 20:50 < shimgray> rather than a higher tax rate and an allocation to heath
2008-01-01 20:50 < Doc_glasgow> [[Michael Jackson]] has been deleted
2008-01-01 20:50 < NotASpy> are we discussing the NHS now.
2008-01-01 20:50 < Aqwis2> AzaTht deleted it due to "technical problems"
2008-01-01 20:51 < Aqwis2> or something.
2008-01-01 20:51 < Mahlzahn_> Luna-San: thanks. That worked.
2008-01-01 20:51 < TheWeasel> quanticle: I once learnt that at university, I think partly
2008-01-01 20:51 < Doc_glasgow> I think he wrote and and asked us not to have an article
2008-01-01 20:51 < quanticle> NotASpy: We're discussing socialized medicine...
2008-01-01 20:51 < AzaTht> Aqwis2: it's a bit difficult to restore
2008-01-01 20:51 < Aqwis2> why was it deleted in the first place?
2008-01-01 20:51 < AzaTht> Aqwis2: a phailed merge by Jerry
2008-01-01 20:51 < Doc_glasgow> View or restore 13,838 deleted edits?
2008-01-01 20:51 < Aqwis2> oh
2008-01-01 20:52 * TheWeasel is happily insured by the state and had complex skin surgery paid for without hassle
2008-01-01 20:52 < NotASpy> it was deleted to for a history merge and it won't restore.
2008-01-01 20:52 < quanticle> TheWeasel: I envy you
2008-01-01 20:52 < bumm13> hiya TheWeasel
2008-01-01 20:52 < TheWeasel> hey
2008-01-01 20:52 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Does the institutionalized insurance also cover vision and dental?
2008-01-01 20:52 < Lubaf> Anyway.
2008-01-01 20:52 < Lubaf> How's murder?
2008-01-01 20:52 < TheWeasel> quanticle: Partly.
2008-01-01 20:52 < quanticle> Lubaf: Murder?
2008-01-01 20:52 < TheWeasel> Dental has gotten pretty thin lately
2008-01-01 20:53 < Lubaf> quanticle: I'd ask "How's life", but that's boring.
2008-01-01 20:53 < Lubaf> So I ask other questions.
2008-01-01 20:53 < TheWeasel> my eye problems are bad enough to at least have them contribute
2008-01-01 20:53 < Lubaf> Anyway.
2008-01-01 20:53 < bumm13> what level of vision do you have? (curious)
2008-01-01 20:53 < quanticle> TheWeasel: How bad are your eye problems?
2008-01-01 20:54 < Lubaf> Hows' tpyos?
2008-01-01 20:54 < TheWeasel> Modest really
2008-01-01 20:54 * quanticle wears glasses
2008-01-01 20:54 < bumm13> I have 20/15, so I'm rather fortunate
2008-01-01 20:54 * quanticle doesn't know his power, but its rather low
2008-01-01 20:54 * Lubaf wears <s>the hollowed out skull of one of his enemies.</s> no glasses, since he has no need.
2008-01-01 20:54 < TheWeasel> seven dioptre short-sighted
2008-01-01 20:54 < TheWeasel> m#ight be worse nowadays
2008-01-01 20:55 < TheWeasel> probably slowed a bit
2008-01-01 20:55 < TheWeasel> I feel save driving
2008-01-01 20:55 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Heh. Getting old?
2008-01-01 20:55 < TheWeasel> *safe
2008-01-01 20:55 < bumm13> short- must mean "near-sighted"
2008-01-01 20:55 < TheWeasel> not at all
2008-01-01 20:55 < TheWeasel> no, I dunno
2008-01-01 20:55 < TheWeasel> can't see distances
2008-01-01 20:55 < TheWeasel> regular
2008-01-01 20:55 < bumm13> right, that's near-sighted
2008-01-01 20:55 < bumm13> :x
2008-01-01 20:56 < TheWeasel> I don't speak English
2008-01-01 20:56 < quanticle> TheWeasel: I can't see distances either, but I can do everything but read without glasses otherwise
2008-01-01 20:56 < TheWeasel> :-D
2008-01-01 20:56 < bumm13> far-sighted means one needs just reading glasses
2008-01-01 20:56 < bumm13> TheWeasel: heh
2008-01-01 20:56 < AzaTht> Aqwis2: finally done
2008-01-01 20:56 < TheWeasel> Reading is typically alright without glasses if the text is close enough
2008-01-01 20:56 < Aqwis2> nice
2008-01-01 20:56 * TheWeasel has hydrocephalus
2008-01-01 20:56 < TheWeasel> so that affects my eyesight too
2008-01-01 20:56 * bumm13 guesses maybe 20/30 vision
2008-01-01 20:56 * FastLizard4 has 30/20 vision
2008-01-01 20:56 < quanticle> TheWeasel: Hmmm. I think your eyes are less affected than mine...
2008-01-01 20:57 * FastLizard4 ...he thinks
2008-01-01 20:57 < TheWeasel> Possibly
2008-01-01 20:57 < bumm13> I've never heard of 30 as a top number
2008-01-01 20:57 < bumm13> but I'm not an opthamologist
2008-01-01 20:57 < FastLizard4> I think I might have it backwards...
2008-01-01 20:57 < AzaTht> Aqwis2: had to invent a new lousy TW undelete script
2008-01-01 20:57 < FastLizard4> I do
2008-01-01 20:57 < FastLizard4> I have 20/30
2008-01-01 20:57 < bumm13> ok
2008-01-01 20:57 < Aqwis2> heh
2008-01-01 20:58 < Mike_H> <bumm13> I've never heard of 30 as a top number
2008-01-01 20:58 < Mike_H> Wait, what?
2008-01-01 20:58 < TheWeasel> Only two days till Iowa!
2008-01-01 20:58 < TheWeasel> bumm13: Seriously, man, never heard of the Top 30?
2008-01-01 21:00 < Mike_H> I'm afraid to tell you what my vision is :(
2008-01-01 21:00 < bumm13> bad?
2008-01-01 21:00 < Mike_H> 20/100
2008-01-01 21:00 < bumm13> wow
2008-01-01 21:00 < FastLizard4> ...
2008-01-01 21:00 < bumm13> are you legally blind?
2008-01-01 21:01 < Mike_H> No.
2008-01-01 21:01 < bumm13> ok
2008-01-01 21:01 < Kieff> hey
2008-01-01 21:01 < bumm13> we all can't have great vision *shrug*
2008-01-01 21:01 < Mike_H> I am nearsighted.
2008-01-01 21:01 < bumm13> indeed
2008-01-01 21:01 < Mike_H> But very acutely nearsighted.
2008-01-01 21:01 < Mike_H> So something literally five or ten feet away
2008-01-01 21:01 < Mike_H> that'll be very blurry
2008-01-01 21:01 < bagueros> hello. is "ronz" around?
2008-01-01 21:02 < Mike_H> Even my computer monitor has to have large font
2008-01-01 21:02 < FastLizard4> bagueros: No
2008-01-01 21:02 < Mike_H> because I can't see very well from a distance, even a distance of like
2008-01-01 21:02 < mavhk> "It is possible to have vision superior to 20/20: the maximum acuity of the human eye without visual aids (such as binoculars) is generally thought to be around 20/10 (6/3)however, recent test subjects have exceeded 20/8 vision"
2008-01-01 21:02 < Mike_H> two feet
2008-01-01 21:02 < bumm13> mavhk: very uncommon though
2008-01-01 21:02 * TheWeasel is patently not among them
2008-01-01 21:02 < bumm13> (although not unheard of)
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> bumm13: I have a visual field that is a sizable range
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> it's just not very
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> clear.
2008-01-01 21:03 < bumm13> I see
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> good
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> 'cause I don't
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> :D
2008-01-01 21:03 < bumm13> well, heh
2008-01-01 21:03 * TheWeasel sleeps with glasses sometimes for fear of not finding them the next morning
2008-01-01 21:03 < bumm13> (no pun intended)
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> and what's worse is that I don't wear my glasses
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> and it's total vanity
2008-01-01 21:03 < Mike_H> I hate how I look in them
2008-01-01 21:03 < bumm13> ah
2008-01-01 21:03 < mavhk> stop looking at yourself then
2008-01-01 21:04 * Mike_H slaps mavhk around a bit with a large trout
2008-01-01 21:04 < mavhk> you missed
2008-01-01 21:04 * Crimedog slaps Mike_H around a bit with a large mirc trout macro
2008-01-01 21:04 < TheWeasel> Try a small trout next, it's easier to handle.
2008-01-01 21:04 < Mike_H> Crimedog: how dare thee!
2008-01-01 21:04 < TheWeasel> "how darest thou"
2008-01-01 21:04 * FastLizard4 slaps Crimedog with a dog bone
2008-01-01 21:05 * Crimedog slaps Doc around a bit with a large Internet meme
2008-01-01 21:05 * FastLizard4 slaps Crimedog with a broken parserfunction
2008-01-01 21:06 * TheWeasel slaps people with an infinite loop for as long as he slaps people with an infinite loop
2008-01-01 21:08 < bumm13> :\
2008-01-01 21:09 < FastLizard4> Does anyone have any idea what /msg ChanServ CLEAR GECOSBANS does?
2008-01-01 21:11 < Schroeder2> it kills kittens
2008-01-01 21:11 < Mike_H> so do you
2008-01-01 21:11 < Mike_H> the way you talked about boobs the other day
2008-01-01 21:11 < FastLizard4> nvm
2008-01-01 21:11 < Schroeder2> yes, but at least I get something pleasurable out of it
2008-01-01 21:11 < Mike_H> an entire kitten farm died that night
2008-01-01 21:11 < TubbyCat> what?
2008-01-01 21:11 < bumm13> =^o.o^=
2008-01-01 21:11 < TubbyCat> a kitten farm died? ;_;
2008-01-01 21:12 < FastLizard4> ?
2008-01-01 21:12 < TheWeasel> "omg this farm like has no life"
2008-01-01 21:12 < Mike_H> TubbyCat: Blame Schroeder2
2008-01-01 21:12 < Mike_H> and boobs.
2008-01-01 21:12 < TheWeasel> GET A LIFE, FARM
2008-01-01 21:13 < bumm13> hiya Messedrocker
2008-01-01 21:13 < Messedrocker> hi bummo
2008-01-01 21:13 < bumm13> :x
2008-01-01 21:15 < bumm13> e-mail from "key" --- "Ron Jeremy uses Max-Xl"
2008-01-01 21:15 < bumm13> (fun stuff)
2008-01-01 21:16 < TheWeasel> is that the small moustachioed Mexican I once saw cameoing in an MTV feature?
2008-01-01 21:16 < TheWeasel> probably
2008-01-01 21:16 < bumm13> yeah
2008-01-01 21:16 < bumm13> he's not Mexican
2008-01-01 21:16 < bumm13> actually, he's rather fat
2008-01-01 21:16 < TheWeasel> oh, right, *slaps self for stereotyping
2008-01-01 21:17 < bumm13> long-time pr0n star
2008-01-01 21:17 < TheWeasel> I see.
2008-01-01 21:19 < Rinn> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/02/0119206 <-- I love Slashdot's tags.
2008-01-01 21:20 < enok|walker> hi doods
2008-01-01 21:20 * Mike_H NP: Mary J. Blige - No More Drama (2002)
2008-01-01 21:21 * TheWeasel NP: Live - Selling the Drama (1995ish)
2008-01-01 21:21 < TheWeasel> Jk.
2008-01-01 21:21 < NotACow> moo to drama
2008-01-01 21:22 < TheWeasel> StD is one of those awful hardrock ballads so popular in the early 90s
2008-01-01 21:22 < shimgray> do you have an alarm set on the word "drama", or something?
2008-01-01 21:22 < shimgray> ;-)
2008-01-01 21:23 < NotACow> shimgray: me?
2008-01-01 21:23 < NotACow> no
2008-01-01 21:23 * NotACow has no alarms set on anything excecpt the one her client automatically sets on her nickname
2008-01-01 21:23 < Mike_H> I don't use alarms
2008-01-01 21:24 < enok|walker> where do i go to discuss the wikipaedia anyways
2008-01-01 21:24 < FastLizard4> enok|walker: Here
2008-01-01 21:24 < NotACow> enok|walker: i hear wikipedia review is good :)
2008-01-01 21:24 < NotACow> some of the people there are a bit strange, though
2008-01-01 21:24 < FastLizard4> enok|walker: Or #wikipedia-social, or #wikipedia-en-help, or #wikipedia-en ...
2008-01-01 21:25 < bumm13> TheWeasel: I don't really consider "Selling the Drama" to be hard rock
2008-01-01 21:25 < bumm13> Live was kind of a silly alt. rock band
2008-01-01 21:27 < TheWeasel> Wikipedia classifies them as post-grunge which is bit of a stretch
2008-01-01 21:27 < TheWeasel> but the "metal voice alt. rock" kind of music has its roots in hardrock to me
2008-01-01 21:27 * shimgray is exhausted
2008-01-01 21:28 < shimgray> I have sorted and reshelved an entire roomfull of books today.
2008-01-01 21:28 < shimgray> and still there seem to be more
2008-01-01 21:28 < NotACow> shimgray: for some reason i read "roomfull" as "roadkill"
2008-01-01 21:28 * TheWeasel really dislikes metal voices, Pearl Jam style (even though I respect their music)
2008-01-01 21:28 < bumm13> 4144444441
2008-01-01 21:28 < bumm13> (darn cat
2008-01-01 21:28 < bumm13> :P
2008-01-01 21:29 < bumm13> Live's lead singer didn't even sound like Vedder
2008-01-01 21:29 < bumm13> his voice was "whinier" than that
2008-01-01 21:29 < TheWeasel> sure
2008-01-01 21:29 * NotACow couldn't imagine why shimgray would be sorting roadkill
2008-01-01 21:30 < bumm13> I think Live thought they were "deep" and "mystical" or something dumb like that
2008-01-01 21:30 * TheWeasel found the lyrics "and to Christ a cross/and to me a chair" rather rude
2008-01-01 21:30 < bumm13> their first album was called "Mental Jewelry" and third album was called "Secret Samadhi"
2008-01-01 21:30 < bumm13> rather pretentious, it seems
2008-01-01 21:31 < TheWeasel> good lord, they're immersed in Hindi, aren't they
2008-01-01 21:31 < TheWeasel> o.o yes
2008-01-01 21:31 < bumm13> heh
2008-01-01 21:31 < shimgray> don't get much roadkill around here, unless you go out to the countryside
2008-01-01 21:31 < shimgray> and even then it's only the odd rabbit or pigeon
2008-01-01 21:31 < TheWeasel> there's plenty of game around Berlin, but I haven't seen roadkill in a long time
2008-01-01 21:32 < shimgray> your books are still on a pile to send, by the way, haven't forgotten :-)
2008-01-01 21:32 < TheWeasel> Dead pigeons, they happen a lot here
2008-01-01 21:32 * bumm13 puts Yert inside a yurt
2008-01-01 21:32 < TheWeasel> especially nasty during the summer
2008-01-01 21:32 < Yert> :O
2008-01-01 21:32 * Yert bumm13.
2008-01-01 21:32 < TheWeasel> they decompose rather swiftly
2008-01-01 21:33 < shimgray> oh, hurrah, another DYK article
2008-01-01 21:34 < Geoff_Plourde> uggh
2008-01-01 21:34 < Geoff_Plourde> Did you know that pigeons decompose quickly during the summer?
2008-01-01 21:34 < TheWeasel> DYK that the weasel is going to bed now?
2008-01-01 21:34 < TheWeasel> Betcha didn't
2008-01-01 21:34 < TheWeasel> Bbt
2008-01-01 21:34 < Geoff_Plourde> lol
2008-01-01 21:34 < Geoff_Plourde> Anyone want to try for a triple crown using that?
2008-01-01 21:34 < TheWeasel> night
2008-01-01 21:34 < shimgray> I do, however, note the first entry on DYK today
2008-01-01 21:35 < Geoff_Plourde> nacht
2008-01-01 21:35 < shimgray> [[Judy Garland as gay icon]]
2008-01-01 21:35 < TheWeasel> nacht
2008-01-01 21:35 < TheWeasel> nacht zusammen
2008-01-01 21:35 < TheWeasel> :-)
2008-01-01 21:36 < Geoff_Plourde> ;)
2008-01-01 21:39 < FastLizard4> Oh noes, a Evil_Monkey!
2008-01-01 21:39 < Geoff_Plourde> Oh noes! Bring forth the banhammer!
2008-01-01 21:39 * FastLizard4 leaves for dinner
2008-01-01 21:42 < Geoff_Plourde> What is one change to WP that would make it a better place?
2008-01-01 21:43 < Geoff_Plourde> any change at all
2008-01-01 21:46 < Aqwis2> now you've started it >.<
2008-01-01 21:47 < Geoff_Plourde> what? O)
2008-01-01 21:47 < Geoff_Plourde> 0)
2008-01-01 21:48 < Geoff_Plourde> &)
2008-01-01 21:48 < Geoff_Plourde> oO)
2008-01-01 21:48 < Geoff_Plourde> o.o
2008-01-01 21:49 < Aqwis2> ;<
2008-01-01 21:50 < Geoff_Plourde> what have i started?
2008-01-01 21:50 < NotACow> DEATH TO STARTING THINGS
2008-01-01 21:51 < NotACow> i need more wood.
2008-01-01 21:51 < NotACow> the fire is burning down and it's not yet midnight
2008-01-01 21:51 < Aqwis2> !
2008-01-01 21:51 < Aqwis2> christ
2008-01-01 21:51 < Aqwis2> it's 04:00 already :<
2008-01-01 21:51 < NotACow> christ won't burn very well
2008-01-01 21:51 < NotACow> Tue Jan 1 20:51:33 CST 2008
2008-01-01 21:51 < Geoff_Plourde> hahahaha
2008-01-01 21:51 < NotACow> Aqwis2: get a real timezone, dude.
2008-01-01 21:51 < Aqwis2> =/
2008-01-01 21:52 < Aqwis2> i like gmt+1
2008-01-01 21:52 < TubbyCat> My sister just asked what a 'Wikipedia chat room' was
2008-01-01 21:52 < TubbyCat> I told her to look it up on wikipedia ;_;
2008-01-01 21:52 < Geoff_Plourde> I love the good ol' pacific time
2008-01-01 21:52 < Geoff_Plourde> hahaha
2008-01-01 21:53 < Aqwis2> although moving Norway to GMT-6 or so could be kind of interesting
2008-01-01 21:54 < shimgray> I just discovered thjat there is a Vermont secessionist movement
2008-01-01 21:54 < shimgray> is it just me, or is that kind of sweet?
2008-01-01 21:54 < NotACow> shimgray: heh, yes, ther is
2008-01-01 21:55 < Geoff_Plourde> What the Free State movement?
2008-01-01 21:55 < bumm13> like maple syrup :)
2008-01-01 21:55 < NotACow> shimgray: vermont is one of the four states, other than the original colonies, that was an independent nation prior to becoming a state.
2008-01-01 21:55 < Geoff_Plourde> or the Second Vermont Republic?
2008-01-01 21:55 < shimgray> yeah, them
2008-01-01 21:55 < shimgray> NotACow: indeed, and good for them
2008-01-01 21:55 < Geoff_Plourde> i thought they died or got arrested
2008-01-01 21:55 < White_Cat> Martinp23 you out there?
2008-01-01 21:56 < White_Cat> Xihix I hope I havent ruined the magic for you :/
2008-01-01 21:56 < Geoff_Plourde> MartinP23 PAging Martinp23
2008-01-01 21:56 < NotACow> shimgray: US history, for as short as it is, is full of neat little things like that
2008-01-01 21:56 < Geoff_Plourde> yes
2008-01-01 21:56 < NotACow> shimgray: the war between michigan and ohio over toledo is one of my favorite little stupidities.
2008-01-01 21:56 < shimgray> "A poll this year by the University of Vermont's Center for Rural Studies found that 13 percent of those surveyed support secession"
2008-01-01 21:57 < shimgray> "It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make political sense, it doesn't make historical sense. Other than that, it's a good idea," said Paul Gillies, a lawyer and Vermont historian.
2008-01-01 21:57 < shimgray> ha!
2008-01-01 21:57 < shimgray> now there's an argument I like the sound of
2008-01-01 21:57 < Geoff_Plourde> How many of them understand what secession means?
2008-01-01 21:57 < Geoff_Plourde> No more checks from the us government
2008-01-01 21:58 < Geoff_Plourde> I remember a local city thought about seceding
2008-01-01 21:58 < NotACow> is vermont a surplus or deficit state?
2008-01-01 21:58 < NotACow> illinois is a deficit state -- we pay a lot more in federal taxes than we get in federal grants
2008-01-01 21:58 < Geoff_Plourde> but stopped when they figured out how much in aid they would lose
2008-01-01 21:58 < shimgray> Must be surplus, surely?
2008-01-01 21:59 < NotACow> shimgray: in general blue states are deficit and red states are surplus
2008-01-01 21:59 < shimgray> Geoff_Plourde: There is a conceptual difference between one town wanting to piss around and an actual state wanting to do so.
2008-01-01 21:59 < shimgray> the town gets ignored, the state has to actually be told no :-)
2008-01-01 21:59 < Geoff_Plourde> true
2008-01-01 22:00 < Geoff_Plourde> I can see the article on WP
2008-01-01 22:00 < Geoff_Plourde> Second American Civil War
2008-01-01 22:00 < Aqwis2> want
2008-01-01 22:00 < shimgray> see, that's the thing
2008-01-01 22:00 < shimgray> no-one on either side is stupid enough to provoke that
2008-01-01 22:01 < Geoff_Plourde> If any state tries to leave the union there will be a war
2008-01-01 22:02 < shimgray> ...no-one is talking about Vermont actually calling out the national guard, manning the border and saying "screw you guys"
2008-01-01 22:02 < Geoff_Plourde> yes
2008-01-01 22:02 < shimgray> should (and it is immensely unlikely) any state want to secede, they could at least force a negotiation even if it didn't go anywhere
2008-01-01 22:03 < NotACow> shimgray: well, the lakota nation abrogated its treaty and declared independence a fe weeks ago
2008-01-01 22:03 < Geoff_Plourde> but i can see what happens when they tr to base their economy on maple syrup
2008-01-01 22:03 < NotACow> shimgray: so far, this hasn't amounted to squat.
2008-01-01 22:03 < Geoff_Plourde> fairly stupid
2008-01-01 22:03 < shimgray> NotACow: me, I call that one for the "we ignore it" side of things...
2008-01-01 22:03 < NotACow> shimgray: therea re rumors that bolivia and venezuela may be considering recognizing them
2008-01-01 22:03 < shimgray> oooh, is Chavez that mad?
2008-01-01 22:03 < shimgray> (yes)
2008-01-01 22:04 < NotACow> shimgray: you have to ask?